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Amos Keeto
19th Nov 2010, 23:38
In 1965, No.111 Squadron formed a display team of nine Lightning F.3s which displayed at the Paris Air Show that year in formation with the Red Arrows Gnats. Does anyone know if they carried out any other displays, if so where and when. Also can anyone put names to faces in this photo?
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/1965EELightningF3sRAF111SqnteamParisLBGJUN65.jpg
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/zRedArrowsGnatswith111SqnLightningF3s1965-1.jpg

Vampiredave
20th Nov 2010, 15:18
As mentioned on the other forum:


Nine Lightning F.3s of No.111 Squadron, Wattisham, “The Black Diamonds”'
Sqn Ldr G P Black, Capt R Chisholm RCAF, Flt Lts C I Carr-White, J Mitchell, M B Bullocke, D M A Samuels, H Molland, E R Perreaux and P J W Creigh. Flt Lt B C Allchin (56 Sqn) attached for Paris air show. Flt Lt A J R Doyle solo aerobatic pilot.

Amos Keeto
20th Nov 2010, 15:52
Thanks alot Dave, but never heard of these being called the "Black Diamond" before? How's your RAF aerobatic teams book coming along?

Vampiredave
20th Nov 2010, 17:27
Due any day!

Flying Lawyer
20th Nov 2010, 18:04
.
A new name to me too.

Black Knights, Black Arrows, Redskins, Blue Diamonds, Red Pelicans, Yellowjacks, Red Arrows and even the Blue Chips, but I hadn't until now heard of the Black Diamonds.
The only trace I can find is the RAAF team which flew Sabres in the 60s.

Was it an official RAF name?
Or an informal team tribute to their leader, Sqn Ldr (George) Black?

forget
20th Nov 2010, 18:54
Black Diamonds may possibly have been connected with Javelins.

266 Squadron ATC C1962-64 - picturestockton (http://www.picturestockton.co.uk/viewpage.aspx?id=90221)

I was CCF [Royal Artillery] - our training was done at the TT on the old Middlebrough road. I vaguely remember a squadron, number unknown, of Javelins known as the Black Diamonds. Again not sure if they were at Thornaby or Middleton - hope my memory is not completely faulty.

Vampiredave
20th Nov 2010, 19:11
......or may even have been a play on the leader's surname? In 1959 / 1961, George Black formed and led a four-ship Vampire team from 1 FTS, Linton-on-Ouse, called the "Linton Blacks"'

forget
21st Nov 2010, 12:20
????

Aircraft Hawker Hunter Sept 1959 Hawker Hunters of the RAF's 111 Sqd Black Diamonds display team at the SBAC Farnborough Air Show 1959.

Aircraft Hawker Hunter (http://www.mediastorehouse.com/pictures_73870/aircraft-hawker-hunter.html)

Lightning Mate
21st Nov 2010, 12:32
Herewith another picture you might like:

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/111RedArrows750.jpg

Vampiredave
21st Nov 2010, 14:00
As the RAF's premier aerobatic team, the Hunter display team from 111 Squadron was known as the "The Black Arrows" from 1957 - 1960. Why the press agency should want to call them anything else is known only unto themselves??

India Four Two
22nd Nov 2010, 12:33
I fondly remember the Lightning displays in the 60s. I saw all the teams and particularly remember the high-speed arrival at low-level from behind the crowd.

I've been wondering how all this was managed. The teams were front-line squadrons, so how did they find the time and the aircraft hours for their practices and displays, while carrying out their "day jobs"?

Was it difficult to generate 9 (or 10?) aircraft on a routine basis?

And most importantly, what did they do about fuel? Did they have a group of tankers following them around?

arem
22nd Nov 2010, 13:01
Don't know about 9 or 10 in formation, but I've got a slide somewhere of 16 in formation at Coltishall. Will try and find it soon.

orionsbelt
22nd Nov 2010, 16:29
I was once told by my old (Now dead ) CFI Stan Ward that this team when returning to EGUW from a display flew a low pass along Runway 32 / 14 at Ipswich. Seems it caused a bit of a fuss in the town centre!!

PPRuNe Pop
22nd Nov 2010, 16:38
Just a snippet from Treble One's history:


In 1955 the first Hunters had arrived, and two years later No 111 Squadron was nominated as the official RAF aerobatic team. At first the team, known as the 'Black Arrows', flew five and then nine aircraft until, at the 1958 Farnborough airshow, the Squadron, aided by No 56 Squadron, entered the record books when it successfully looped twenty-two aircraft! In 1961, the unit converted to Lightnings, successive marks staying until 1974 when Phantoms arrived. Following a move from Coningsby to Leuchars, the Squadron re-equipped with ex-Royal Navy Phantoms and these survived until the early 1990s when Tornado F3s became the Squadron mount.


'Blue Diamonds' was the name given to 92 Sqdn - I believe with Brian Mercer as the original team leader. A great team - as they all were.

Minnie Burner
14th Jun 2014, 15:25
display team | 1958 | 1- - 0383 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1958/1958-1-%20-%200383.html)

Isn't it about time the RAF looped 25 Hawks to celebrate the thick end of 60 years of holding the record for looping the most jets?

Shall we ask the MAA?:=

http://aerobaticteams.net/images/raf-teams/black-arrows-hunter-15.jpg
http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/137615-patch-143-speculation-wishlisting/page-6

Amos Keeto
14th Jun 2014, 15:47
Could they actually manage to find 25 serviceable Hawks at the same time?
That would be half our air force!!! :hmm:
Even for the 22-Hunter loop, 111 Sqn. had to borrow eight aircraft from other squadrons.

Wander00
14th Jun 2014, 15:49
Now there's an idea.......................


I' pretty sure my second QFI at Valley (first went back to what was then Rhodesia), Mike Smith, had been on 92, "Blue Diamonds". Most frustrating guy to teach me formation exercises - he was picture-perfect every sortie, the whole sortie.

ian16th
14th Jun 2014, 17:09
After the Greeks & Turks started shooting at each other Dec 63.
The Turkish Air Force 'buzzed' parts of Cyprus with F-100's.
By the time the Javelin's at Nicosia were airborne, the F-100's were back in Turkey.

So the powers that be sent a Squadron of Lightnings to Akrotiri, it was 111.

Between their arrival, probably Jan 64 and my departure from Akrotiri, Oct 64. 111 gave at least one display there. Maybe it was Battle of Britain Day.

ancientaviator62
15th Jun 2014, 08:14
Brian Mercer was the boss on 92 when I first arrived on the sqn as an Air Radar Fitter. His replacement was S/L 'Paddy' Hine (later ACM Sir Patrick) We had lots of Hunters and if you scratched one or two of them the black ex 111 paint would appear. We later re-equipped with the Lightning and I well remember S/L Hine's demo to the visiting Saudi Delegation who were considering buying the Lightning.

Lightning Mate
15th Jun 2014, 09:57
Tremblers - Paris 1965.


http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/Lightning_29001/WoE/Where%20on%20Earth/1111965teamb1200_zps44db347e.jpg


L to R :


Tony Doyle, Pete Creigh, Kiwi Perreaux, Hedley Molland, Dave Samuels,


Barney Bullocke, John Mitchell, Chris Carr-White, Bob Chisholm,


George Black.

India Four Two
15th Jun 2014, 10:47
I was at Farnborough in 1958 and saw the 22 Hunter loop. Being young and ignorant, while being impressed, I assumed it was perfectly normal.

I see in Minnie Burner's picture that the Hunters were using partial flap. Was this to make things easier for the pilot?

Lightning Mate
15th Jun 2014, 11:09
The lead ship had to give a fair amount of power to the rest of such a big formation and the speed was quite low over the top.


Hence the use of a bit of flap.

ancientaviator62
15th Jun 2014, 17:18
Lightning Mate,
was Hedley Molland the chap who ejected from a Hunter at or very near supersonic speed ?

Lightning Mate
15th Jun 2014, 17:32
Yes - just supersonic.


He did it a second time from Lightning F3 XP739.


Can't match that - I only have one Martin Baker tie.

chevvron
17th Jun 2014, 03:16
Would that be for a Buccaneer by any chance?

India Four Two
17th Jun 2014, 05:32
Re-reading this resurrected thread, I see I posted a question that didn't get answered, so I'll try again.

I fondly remember the Lightning displays in the 60s. I saw all the teams and particularly remember the high-speed arrival at low-level from behind the crowd.

I've been wondering how all this was managed. The teams were front-line squadrons, so how did they find the time and the aircraft hours for their practices and displays, while carrying out their "day jobs"?

Was it difficult to generate 9 (or 10?) aircraft on a routine basis?

And most importantly, what did they do about fuel? Did they have a group of tankers following them around?

Lightning Mate
17th Jun 2014, 09:15
"Would that be for a Buccaneer by any chance?"


Not a Buccaneer - a Jaguar.

safetypee
17th Jun 2014, 12:44
India, the team members were all front-line pilots. When a squadron was allocated display duties the primary role might be compromised, but balanced throughout the year. This was easier to achieve in the Hunter days than with the Lightning – where the need for intercept / night flying had to be biased to the winter (non-display months).
Formation flying was a normal requirement thus there was not a great need for additional training.

Generating 9 – 10 aircraft from one squadron was difficult and often involved trading with engineering spares or other squadrons. In the late 60’s the OCU at Coltishall generated a 16 ship formation – 18 aircraft, spare plus solo aero, on two days for BB show. Only one practice for a ‘flat show’ and then the real thing.
Coltishall also generated 28 Lightings for an AOC flypast – box 4s, plus spares, wipper-in and solo.

Fuel was always limited, no tankers, thus a quick low level flight and back to base – 30/40 min.
Farnborough shows were probably flown from Odiham nearby.

Lightning Mate
17th Jun 2014, 13:38
safetypee - here ye go.


Coltishall 1969.


http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/Lightning_29001/WoE/Where%20on%20Earth/16-ship640_zpsd417c573.jpg

newt
17th Jun 2014, 16:34
Some of them are a bit out of position LM! I was on the last 111 Lightning display five ship before we handed over to the F4! Good days!

Glad I left when I did as there is little left to fly these days! Oh and I have a MB tie too! Also from the Jaguar:ok:

safetypee
17th Jun 2014, 21:17
Aahh, remember it well. After the duty practice fly-by, GB leading, announced ‘hang in you young bu¬¬ers’ and promptly wheeled the 16 ship formation around the airfield. Viewing from the outer extremities I thought that the down-wing aircraft were quite close to the ground; until the turn was reversed ...
IIRC, GB led the occasional Friday POETS four ship as mood and weather allowed; staff and students promptly opened the Gin Mine, - a Carboy of Gin courtesy (a tradition) of the USAF exchange pilot / engineer to witness formation aeros over the airfield, which at that time were ‘disapproved of’.
The 28 ship AOC’s Balbo was a completely different affair (different leadership). 20+ aircraft diverted, N, S, and W of Coltishall after the leader took the barrier in poor weather.

Warmtoast
17th Jun 2014, 22:58
India Four Two

Re your unanswered question (post#26).

I shot some 8mm cine film of 74 Sqn displaying their Lightnings at the Paris (Le Bourget) Airshow (24th Paris Salon Aéronautique) in May 1961. Witness the screen grabs below. Displayed as grabbed frames the quality is poor, but they look 100% better when projected.

I was one of the two crews from 99 and 511 Sqn that crewed a RAF Transport Command Britannia that was on static display or the duration of the display. One of my better trips IMHO.

The flying display programme was long, lasting (with a lunchtime interval of an hour-and-a-half) from nearly ten in the morning till after six in the evening and had something for everyone.

As I recall after 53-years (with the help of some notes made at the time), 74's display as led by Sqn Ldr John Howe was first class and consisted of wingovers with nine aircraft (in 1961 the largest number of Lightnings ever seen publicly together) and rolls with four. One manoeuvre at the end had the Parisian spectators on their feet applauding.

As the main formation of Lightnings wheeled away to the front with spectators turning to watch them, a singleton flown by Flt. Lt. Ken Goodwin, who'd detached himself from the nine-man formation came screaming from behind the spectators at near sonic speed with his afterburners at full blast and at very low-level just over the spectator’s heads.

The sudden shock of noise hit like a thunderclap and startled everyone, but when it was realised that it was part of the display and spectators had recovered from the shock, they were on their feet and clapping in a very appreciative manner, something I’d never experienced before, especially as it was the French applauding the British!

Flt Lt Goodwin then did a solo aerobatics display which included Derry turns and low inverted fly-bys.

Screen grabs from my 8-mm cine film below.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Lyneham/74Sqn-ParisMay1961-GrabbedFrame-1.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Lyneham/74Sqn-ParisMay1961-GrabbedFrame3.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Lyneham/74Sqn-ParisMay1961-GrabbedFrame2.jpg

chiglet
23rd Jun 2014, 22:29
[In 1965, No.111 Squadron formed a display team of nine Lightning F.3s]
Being a pedantic so and so, I would say Eight Lightning F3s and One Lightning T4

DaveReidUK
24th Jun 2014, 06:55
Being a pedantic so and so, I would say Eight Lightning F3s and One Lightning T4The latter used to stick out like the proverbial sore thumb:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/zRedArrowsGnatswith111SqnLightningF3s1965-1.jpg

But I don't think it made a Gnat's worth of difference. :O

BOAC
24th Jun 2014, 15:59
Are you sure that is a T4, Mr Reid? :ok:

lightningmate
24th Jun 2014, 16:56
chevvron,

Compare the letter case and spacing of the name tags :)

Of course, I will own up to the Buccaneer :ok:

lm

DaveReidUK
24th Jun 2014, 17:24
Are you sure that is a T4, Mr Reid?Yes - the lead aircraft, that is. It's also discernable (just) in the photo accompanying post #9, though the tail is obscured.

Why, what do you think it is?

BOAC
24th Jun 2014, 19:34
Well, it might be (maybe a retained T4, a 'borrow' from elsewhere etc etc) but it might also be a T5 since Tremblers had re-equipped that year with the F3 variant for which, as I'm sure you know, the T5 was the 2-seat variant. I bow abjectly to your 'sore-thumb' spotting skills if you can tell so certainly.

I wager it's probably a 5.

EDIT: Actually you could be right! (and I would be mightily impressed and would eat my logbook). I have just seen a post elsewhere from 'Salad Fingers' which says
"Most of the season was flown with 9 FMK3s or 8 plus a TMK4 - the T~MK5 arrived in September." so the Jury is out.

Preon
24th Jun 2014, 20:36
It's a T.4 with 'Witches Hat' tail and could be XM992 'Z' which later went back to the makers for conversion to a T.54 for Saudi Arabia.
Colour schemes were toned down in 1966.

newt
24th Jun 2014, 21:23
It's defo a T4 BOAC! What was the wager and when do we all collect?:E

BOAC
24th Jun 2014, 21:35
OK - Specsavers here I come............:uhoh:

chevvron
24th Jun 2014, 21:57
Foul! We have two lightningmates/Lightning Mates on this forum!!

Alicatt
28th Jul 2014, 11:55
I can remember a Lightning display team in the 1960s displaying at Prestwick Airport, as a young impressionable lad it left an abiding love of all things Lightning!
The formation take off was, err, somewhat loud!
I was maybe a max of 9 years old at the time but I can't really remember what year it was.

Peter-RB
28th Jul 2014, 14:38
I can remember "Raymond Baxter" in a newsreel film late 50's early 60s I think of Farnborough or some other air display where he referred to the 111 Lightnings as "Triple one Sqdn Black Diamonds".

I can also remember seeing several Lightnings taking off at Valley and going vertical until they disappeared into very high clouds I was stood in the dunes at Rhosnieger, it took years for my wife to find out the allure of the Rhosnieger Bay Hotel :D

kaitakbowler
28th Jul 2014, 15:57
Tony Doyle accidentally (!) went through the sound barrier over the airfield a year or so previously, causing a lot of damage both on camp and off. He also ejected at Exeter just prior to their Paris trip, IIRC all the jets had their engines changed, in very short order, as a result.

lightningmate
29th Jul 2014, 14:54
kaitakbowler,

Tony ejected because a main wheel would not extend and lock-down.

lm

kaitakbowler
29th Jul 2014, 23:12
LM

IR the 1965 Exeter crash was an engine problem. I was the comcen operator who Tx'd the accident report. Witnesses reported one of the engines disintegrating and a fire. As the cause was unknown, and Paris looming the decision was taken to change all the engines on the Sqn's jets.

lightningmate
30th Jul 2014, 11:55
kaitakbowler,

Apologies, you are correct. Guess I was mixing that event with some other!
Oh how the passage of time ruins the memory, and other things :O

lm

astir 8
26th Aug 2014, 10:48
I've never forgotten a Battle of Britain day at Biggin Hill in the 60's. The Lightnings had done a bomb burst or similar manoeuvre and were reforming to the north - except that two of them had sneaked round to the south and came up the valley behind the crowd and came over the top of us at about 200 feet, probably with reheat because I can still picture blue flames coming from the jet pipes. No-one saw them coming, only going away, fast.

It was like being hit over the head with a sledgehammer! Made a lasting impression on a 12 year old lad.

fredgrandaughter
3rd May 2022, 13:55
Hi I believe my grandad used to be in the 111 Squardron
hes name used to be Frederick Le Grys aka Fred

ancientaviator62
4th May 2022, 08:51
I was on 92 as groundcrew when we were the 'Blue Diamonds' with the Hunter then the Mk2A Lightning. But on some of our Hunters there was black paint under the blue !