Gippsland Aero

[1.3vso]

Heard someone mention that Gippsland Aerospace, the Australian maker of the GA8 Airvan planes has gone out of business. Searched the web (as well as Pprune) and checked the company's website; nothing about their going out of business.

In fact, I saw pictures of a GA8 Airvan on display at the AOPA Summit recently held in Long Beach, California.

I fly the GA-8 for the US Civil Air Patrol and was curious. Kind of a quirky but lovable plane. Not big on creature comforts but a good load hauler for a plane in its class.

Anyone know the story here ?? Thanks ..

[AussieNick]

you'll find that gippsland aero is now owned and i believe called Manhindra (sp.) Aerospace

[The Green Goblin]

Cessna would love you to believe that :cool:

[VH-XXX]

Don't be stressed mate, the Gippy Aero will be around for a while yet whilst Mahindra is involved. Mahindra are an extremely large Indian manufacturing organisation with arms into many different technology areas.

There was a whole other thread on this a while back.

So it's all good :ok:

[AussieNick]

GG, shows what i know :) and I was down their way only 3 weeks ago :}

[PA39]

Yep its owned by Mahindra Aviation Group.....same Indian based manufacturer of cars, steel etc etc. Very large and capitalised company who reckon they will give the ozzie aviation industry some "curry"!!

[geeup]

Are they still plan to rebuild the Nomad? :O

[Jethro Gibbs]

nomad they could not sell them last time who would buy an old design that did not sell before time to move on.

[startingout]

Supposedly they have had a few letters of intent to order. I believe Grant Kenny Aviation was on that list but this was back in 08' so might not be so valid anymore.

[1a sound asleep]

Australian Flying: GippsAero buys Nomad for GA18 program (http://www.australianflying.com.au/news/gippsaero-buys-nomad-for-ga18-program)

Based on the N24A Nomad, the GA18 will be re-engineered with upgraded engines, new propellers, glass cockpit, weight-saving measures, reduced maintenance requirements and aerodynamic refinements. A GippsAero spokesman told Australian Flying that its engineering team is on schedule to release details of the approved configuration of the GA18 – including engines, props and avionics to be used, and other improvements and refinements – at the end of September.

[lilflyboy262]

I dont understand the GA10.
You have the C208A which is in the same class. Or the C208B which takes another 3.
OR you have the PAC750 which takes 9 with STOL and still cruises at 150kts.

Its putting itself into a market that already has 2 very good and proven examples flying.

The GA18 is putting itself up against the twotter... enough said with that one.

[1a sound asleep]

I dont understand the GA10.
You have the C208A which is in the same class. Or the C208B which takes another 3.
OR you have the PAC750 which takes 9 with STOL and still cruises at 150kts.

Its putting itself into a market that already has 2 very good and proven examples flying.

The GA18 is putting itself up against the twotter... enough said with that one.

MY gut feeling is they will move production to India and halve the costs and then undercut anybody else in the market

[WannaBeBiggles]

I dont understand the GA10.
You have the C208A which is in the same class. Or the C208B which takes another 3.
OR you have the PAC750 which takes 9 with STOL and still cruises at 150kts.

Its putting itself into a market that already has 2 very good and proven examples flying.

The GA18 is putting itself up against the twotter... enough said with that one.

Try buying a new one of those for 1.3mil!

[jas24zzk]

When Mahindra first took over, they were flapping their gums about the companies commitment to leaving GA where it is, doing what it does. A whole bunch was said about the Reputation GA had built for itself, and that they didn't want to do anything detrimental to that image.

Would moving production to india harm that reputation?

IMO, yes.


As for the nomad, wasn't there some mob (Canada I think) that were talking about re-engineering and producing Turbine Caribous?????


Jas

[lilflyboy262]

When I think of the cost of a brand new PT6 and then think of how much is left over to build the rest of the aircraft... Throw in the cost of the avionics, it does make me shudder if they will still be making a profit.

We took 2 brand new Airvans last year. Both machines did around 1000hrs. Basically anything cosmetic on them has fallen off. It was just all glued on. I think the build quality is already shoddy enough before they start pawning them off to India.

Dont get me wrong, I think the plane is a great plane, but thats one of the issues I have with it.

[tail wheel]

As for the nomad, wasn't there some mob (Canada I think) that were talking about re-engineering and producing Turbine Caribous?????

A "turbine caribou" is a DHC5 Buffalo, although a number of DHC4 Caribous have been re-engined with PT6A-67's in lieu of the R2000 radials.

[GA10]

We took 2 brand new Airvans last year. Both machines did around 1000hrs. Basically anything cosmetic on them has fallen off. It was just all glued on. I think the build quality is already shoddy enough before they start pawning them off to India.

Ive investigated and we have upgraded the glue to withstand hotter climates. 2012 model will bring some improvements and more in the pipeline.


I think the plane is a great plane, but thats one of the issues I have with it.


Thanks for the feedback.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Great to hear!!

My biggest problem with them was the lack of power, something like a 360hp engine would have been a dream, that and rudder trim...

Has the prop surging issues been sorted out yet? (left Africa now, so out of the loop)

[VH-XXX]

What about the prop snapping issue too?

[knox]

What about the prop snapping issue too?

Prop snapping!? Do tell.

Knox.

[VH-XXX]

The prop has been known to literally snap off half way out. Believe it was more than one aircraft but I await advice from others on how many times it has actually happened.

[knox]

That would have to have a fairly catastrophic outcome especially if airborne. I'd certainly like to know more. If anyone has info, please share.

Knox.

[DanArcher]

The prop has been known to literally snap off half way out. Believe it was more than one aircraft but I await advice from others on how many times it has actually happened.

People....... let's try to keep in mind GA don't (i'm pretty sure) manufacture the props! The props being most likely bought from either McCaculey or Hartzel!

[T28D]

Torsionable Vibration ????

[jas24zzk]

Ive investigated and we have upgraded the glue to withstand hotter climates. 2012 model will bring some improvements and more in the pipeline.

Can I suggest a brand name for you..............nah stuff ya, i will :P

Fusor.

In my industry we use a lot of their products in place of OEM glues. One product in particular, 108B, used to glue dissimilar steels has a break strain of 1500 PSI (better than windscreen Eurethane) and it normally out performs that.


What I love about this thread...SFA. Just another case of aussies bagging aussie products! The same aussies that want to tell the world how good we are............i digress.................

[lilflyboy262...2]

I'm a kiwi :ok:

[T28D]

It is probably Torsional Vibration nothing to do with maintenance, it is the way the rotating elements are set up.

[boofhead]

The Great Australian Cringe makes me sick.

I fly a GA 8 in Alaska and it is one of the best airplanes for that place. Good range, gets into small strips, comfortable, quiet, and the best view for the punters of any airplane I have flown in. I did 4 hours last week in the back and was really impressed with the quiet, smooth, comfortable ride. The view all around was superb, and the scenery spectacular.

But to listen to an Aussie (and I am one, but not a basher of my country like so many) the GA 8 is rubbish.

As if things don't break on a Cessna?

[HarleyD]

Hi there T 28d

The engine and prop are pretty much exactly the same as a cerokee 6 300, so would have the same 'torsional vibration' due to the identical 'set up' of the 'rotating elements'.

Whilst every installation has its own idiosycracies, all the blade seperations that i am aware of had a severe stone damage nick in a similar, clearly critical, area of the blade. Such damage, if left unrectified, is quite likely to alllow progressive propagation of cracking and then, surprise surprise, partial blade separation Some operators seem to get very little stone damage, others more, seemingly independant of the surfaces that they opeate on. Poor operating procedures and lack of attention to prop condition can be bring such issues on.

Whilst the vibration mode of the prop, which is dependant on many
considerations, and varies for different combinations, is a not insignificant
factor, do you honestly believe that the same engine prop configuration, which
has been around for about 40 years now, would have got through certification
and then production and use without someone noticing the props falling off for
no apparent reason?

Hi Brian,

You may not be aware that the Gippsland seats comply with the stringent requirements of FAR23.562 that require dynamic (sled) testing. This takes into account airframe deformation, offset impact, head impact path and impact score, seat belt peak loads and a maximum allowable spinal compression load. Cessna seats do not. Whilst some complain pilots complain about the seat comfort, others are just fine with it, though i believe that the factory is attemping to improve the comfort to increase the 'happy' numbers. On blue water ferry i have done 16 hour legs, single pilot , no AP, and not been too traumatized. Any seat will make you a bit stiff after that length of time.

Anyone that has been involved in an accident in a GA8 seem quite satisfied with the seats, as they have saved several lives so far. Seats from antiquated aircraft designs (cessna 100 series falls into this category) have been known to contribute to occupant injuries in an accident, and even to cause accidents on their own accord.

HD

[lilflyboy262...2]

I totally agree with brian.
I've got over 550hrs in them. As a 23-24yr old, I felt like I was 80 after a hard life of digging ditches and I couldn't feel my ass.
Lack of rudder trim was an issue for me.
And it needed at least another 60hp when at MTOW.
Brakes are worse than useless when heavy braking was required. Your COULD NOT flat spot a airvan tyre.

That being said. Passengers loved them (As long as the flight was less than an hour)
View from the bubble windows was great.
Loading and unloading pax was a breeze and fast turn arounds.
The car seat belts were great for passengers, easy for them to use.
(but the stupid bracket on the top of the seat meant that a change of seats was not easy, nor changing the seat covers if someone threw up on them. Whole seat belt assembly had to come off if I am not mistaken)
Much quieter than other piston counter-parts such as the C206.
Very easy to land & nice light controls.

[Neville Nobody]

Harley, do you have red hair? :8

[zappalin]

First flight imminent for GippsAero GA10 (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/first-flight-imminent-for-gippsaero-ga10-370321/)

Just thought I'd add this as I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet!
Interesting little project, should be a good seller if they get it right. Anyone have any ideas if they have orders already?

[VH-XXX]

Harley, do you have red hair? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/nerd.gif

Given that he works in aviation, if it was red, it is probably grey by now. (no offence intended)

[Neville Nobody]

Given that he works in aviation, if it was red, it is probably grey by now. (no offence intended)
I meant no offense as well, just occured to me who Harley is. ;)

[VH-XXX]

Add Sunburn to the sore arse :ok:

They are a great machine, great for specific tasks and they do it well. They aren't suited for everyone. A great Aussie product.

All good things in Australia are Great. Great Australian Bite, Great Keppel Island and Great Barrier Reef.

The US have their Grand Caravan, MGM Grand and Grand Canyon :ouch:

[knox]

I've done a "couple" of hours in GA8 and I must admit it is a seriously UGLY plane but very functional and offers a great financial return for any company running them. Its a real work horse that can take a real thrashing and can make it in and out of most strips. However I still love the C206.

Brian Abraham: I take you were providing additional aft trim by pulling back on the yoke with both hands. Empty Airvanitis.

HarleyD: "Anyone that has been involved in an accident in a GA8 seem quite satisfied with the seats".
I was involved in an accident when I attempted an exit from the "van" after a 2 hour sector, this was due to excessive loss of feeling in legs due to FAR23.562 seating requirement. But in all seriousness my hat is off to you doing a 16 hour stint in the "van".

Knox.

Edit: rudder trim!! Please!!

[717tech]

Was very easy/nice to fly but they need to do something about that seat!

[jas24zzk]

Interesting young sherlock...........


Boofa, nice to see someone else agreeing with me on aussies self bashing...i loathe it!. Sure comment on what you don't like, but as we agree, that doesn't make it a dud.

The scarevan (excuse me, i like my nicknames) is enjoying some great success. An operator I spoke to a few years ago was interested, but the lack of turbo option held him back. I'll have to give him a call on his viewpoint now :)


Seat Design. Is this the biggest criticism? Surely this has gotten back to GA and in time they will address it....they'd be dumb not to....progression of a type is reliant on curing 'gripes'.


As for the seats being FAR XXX compliant....booowaaaa! The seats in your mercedes actually exceed the FAR compliance req, and are ten times more comfortable. I also agree, yes the crashna seats are reasonably comfy, i'd rather the more modern supportive design of the GA item.

Comfort however will come with a weight penalty....you know the bit your boss pays for. :ugh:

[HarleyD]

Neville Nobody

Hair was red looooooong time ago, before ag flying career. Turned white after I strained an airframe. Strained it through a row of gum trees. The tailwheel survived (and the data plate).

HD

[aeromariner]

jas24zzk (http://www.pprune.org/members/233465-jas24zzk) seats in the airvan also exceed the FAR requirements - they're rated to 30g allround. Put in a different seat cushion if you don't like the current one.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Jaz, they were nicknamed the Vomit Comet in Botswana.

They were way too under-powered when its hot and heavy. Couldn't get above the bumps and would end up with sick pax.

Think about it for a second, the GA8 has the same Horsepower as a C206. The airvan was designed to take 2 more pax!
We had a seat out in the rear so we could carry baggage as well as fuel. Put it this way, we could only climb due to the curvature of the earth....

[lilflyboy262...2]

I have a few questions about the GA10 as well.

Looking at the brochure on the Gippsland website... It says the empty weight is estimated to be 2350lbs. With a MTOW of 4450lbs.
Gives you a payload of 2100lbs. 10 occupants at 165lbs each (Standard weight 75kg) is 1650lbs.
That gives you 450lbs for fuel and baggage. Assuming they all bought 20kg, or 44lbs each, thats 440lbs for baggage, leaving 10lbs for fuel....

That engine better be economical.

Next question is, the brochure also says it can carry 500 gallons of fuel. With a 2100lbs payload... well from what I remember in the caravan, 332 gallons is 2244lbs.
How can you carry 500 gallons when that works out to be roughly 3400lbs?

If you want to be carrying around passengers and baggage, I can't see any benefit to this aircraft with those weight restrictions. You'd be better off buying a GA8 and save on maintenance?

This plane is competing with the Cessna Caravan, the Kodiak Quest, and the PAC750 to name a few. All so far can carry a much bigger payload for a slightly higher fuel burn and they can full the seats and fly a decent distance.


Now if this is a typo in the brochure then I can understand!

[VH-XXX]

The competitive edge might be the purchase cost.... compared to a Caravan etc.

[Trojan1981]

I thought the point of this aircraft was to fit between the 207-208/PAC/Kodiak, not compete directly with them. For skydiving a GA-10 may work out to be much more efficient that a 'van, depending on load factor. I assume it'll be much more economical than PT-6 powered beasties.

[Brian Abraham]

Hair was red looooooong time ago, before ag flying career. Turned white after I strained an airframe. Strained it through a row of gum trees. The tailwheel survived Must have you pinged as the wrong guy Harley. I was imagining an unintended parachute jump, passing a meat cleaver on the way.

[The Green Goblin]

, they were nicknamed the Vomit Comet in Botswana.

They were way too under-powered when its hot and heavy. Couldn't get above the bumps and would end up with sick pax.

Think about it for a second, the GA8 has the same Horsepower as a C206. The airvan was designed to take 2 more pax!
We had a seat out in the rear so we could carry baggage as well as fuel. Put it this way, we could only climb due to the curvature of the earth....

I don't know what you were flying but while the Airvan was not as quick in the air as the 206, it certainly performed pretty well with most payloads I flew in it.

I'd prefer a max weight van than a max weight 206!

I agree with the sick pax though. With that big wing they felt every bump! New pilots also had a tendency to over control and chase the altimeter. You had to let it ride the conditions a little more than other aeroplanes.

[VH-XXX]

I once watched a pilot who accidentally* overloaded an Airvan.

He got out and described it as "a bit pitchy" :rolleyes:


(* yes, it was an accident, hard to believe but beyond the pilots control on this occasion)

[Lineboy4life]

The Oshkosh demonstrator pilot of the airvan told me to stick to me 206's ha...for the price of a scarevan you could have a fleet of em...

Donno how well the allison will work in one as they never seem to breath at aldtitlude (like the gonad...)

Donno about bringin the nomad back into frutition...the PA-31 may have a chance though...


Go MAHINDRA....

[43Inches]

Donno about bringin the nomad back into frutition...the PA-31 may have a
chance though...


I heard piper would consider building a PA31 if you are willing to pay their price (something way above what most turbines are on the market for). Considering there are still some 3000 pa31 airframes still out there it will be a long while before they are serious about starting production again.

[GA10]

Yeah there are a few typos in that brochure!

MTOW is now going to be 4750 lbs and empty weight will be around the same as the GA8.

The 500 gallons is really only 500 liters (oops) and the fuel burn should be ALOT lower than other "brand-name" turboprops out there.

It fits in under the Grand Caravan (8000lbs MTOW) for co.s with greater frequency operations or smaller load factors to make money. The value proposition hasnt changed from the GA8.
very functional and offers a great financial return for any company running them (thanks Knox!)

Matt

[lilflyboy262...2]

Thanks GA10. Makes a little more sense now!

@GG.
We were flying brand new out of the box GA8's with the 3 bladed props.
While they were good to get off the ground (use the collective on the right hand side to pop up off the ground...), the climb rate was around 100-200ft/min.
Density altitudes were around 5-6000ft on good days. Worst I saw was 9,500ft.
The C206 preformed much better on the days with high density alts.
A slightly bigger engine would have been fantastic to get say 400ft/min climb.

Don't get me wrong though. I loved the machine. Much more than a C206 thats for sure!

[HarleyD]

HI Brian,

Yes that also was me. hair already white by then, so most of it fell out after that. there were other incidents in between, but that is for another thread.

Lilflyboy262,

or should i say Cessna salesman, I cannot accept your statements regarding Airvan performance without a little comment.

I may be a little biased to the GA8, BUT I used to fly charter in a Robbie U206 and have flown 207's as well. after close to 3,000 hours in GA8 normally aspirated, and turbocharged GA8 TC320, and after operating in them in more than 20 countries, including teh Subcontinent, equatorial tropics, central Australia, PNG highlands, all through Central and South America ( 5 Andes crossings) . I have operated from 10,000ft elevation (12K density Ht) fully loaded in normally aspirated, and never had the 100-200 ft ROC to which you refer, well maybe out of Quito on a hot day, fully loaded, normally aspirated 100-200 fpm is not unusual, but that is a bit of an exception.

If you fly an Airvan like it is supposed to be flown i.e. NOT like a cessna, it will perform within the performance specified in the AFM POH. the charts and table in that document for GA8 is very conservative, unlike the earlier C206 POH, a very slim document that was written to comply with a significantly lower standard of compliance. apples and oranges as far as the books and their figures are concerned.

I have flown with many experienced Cessna pilots who just don't get it. The Airvan has a different wing in every way, different flaps, in every way and completely different sight pictures for all flight regimes, yet many 206 drivers will apply their 206 tribal knowledge, numbers and attitudes to the Airvan, then complain that it's not a 206. DUH!

The GA8 will and does carry the additional load for several reasons, but in the main it is it's efficiency in the normal flight regime is what allows this. Cessna may be slimmer. sleeker in profile, etc, and whilst it has been backbone of the industry in the back blocks for decades, it has many aerodynamic deficiencies that limit its capabilities. the GA8 is a better moustrap which utilizes a lifting body fuselage, trimming stabilizer and lifting tail to provide the ability to carry more on the same power. maybe you should go down to the factory and give them the benefit of your deep understanding of aerodynamic principles, to explain why you believe that the GA8 wont lift as much as a 206 on a hot day. I know it will beat a 206 hands down as i have taken off from tropical airports on stinking steamy days overloaded like you can't believe (overwater ferry fuel allowance) and climbed away happily at Vy at a soggy 400 fpm, which i was quite satisfied with, for a 15 hour stint, on a standard seat, without an AP. happy happy happy.

Like i said, I am a little biased, but certainly not inexperienced on Airvans and 206's. Lilflyboy, you have had your say in a few posts on this topic, now i have had mine. I do not intend to enter a slanging match, just to put a few things right.

Gimme my Airvan any day. Oh and I love the elbow room, not so squeezy.

HD

PS: GA 10 is gonna be AWESOME. I will be operating them just as soon as i can get my hands on one.

[HarleyD]

The additional post that i intended not to make.

a general rule of thumb for GA8, normally aspirated 2 blade prop at mtow:

600 fpm @ 5000 ft ISA
500 tpm @ 6000 ft ISA

i have had consistent 450 fpm in above config after take off at 6500+ DH in tropical mountains.

Density height charts for fixed wing are all well and good, but although they take pressure and temperature in to account they generally neglect humidity, which can be a significant factor. which is why i have quoted the above example as this was Humid (way humid) and as well as quite warm, and at 5000 elevation. airvan performed just fine at MTOW

HD

[lilflyboy262...2]

And I totally respect your opinion.
I am definitely not a Cessna salesman, and I resent being called that.
I too prefer the Airvan to the C206. By a long way. And I have made that very clear.

All I have asked for is a few improvements to make a good plane, a great plane.
A bit more HP, a rudder trim, seat covers that are easier to take on and off (We had factory GA covers, not OEM), better brakes and better glue.

I feel it was under-powered for our operations in Botswana. Have you flown there?
Most of the time it was at or slightly over (Due to standard weights being used) MTOW with DH of around 7-8k.
With constant light to moderate turbulence all the way up to, and sometimes above 10,000ft MSL, A slightly bigger donk could have made the difference between sitting in it, and sitting above it.

We could not operate the turbo charged engines as a lot of our legs were 5 to 10 minute hops. Some as short as 2 minutes.

@GA10. Did they find a solution to the prop surging issues that they were having with those 3 bladed props? I'm guessing it was a CSU issue and obviously not a Gippsland issue.
Did Gippsland not come across this issue in testing though? Is it just unique to the new airvans in Botswana?

[HarleyD]

Ok, i feel better to have got that off my chest.

No i have not flown in Botswana, yet. Have you flown in the altiplano of Bolivia? This game could go on all day, so i will stop the p!ssing contest and accept that you have significant Hot and high issues, but i will say that flown to the correct loading and power speed configurations that it will do better than the 100 fpm that you claim at 6-7,000 ft. You may be back around 200 fpm at 9k, but at correct weight. Overloading will certainly diminish performance, the skydiving operators here in aus have proven that. All that space just asks for more bods, but there are limits.

I will pm you when i visit africa and we can have this chat over a beer as it should be.

Posted from the cockpit of a TC 320 airvan in cruise somewhere in the lucky country. Am on trans continental flight at the moment.

HD

[HarleyD]

It is definately not hot and hi here today. Oat 9C. Rain pounding on windscreen. Low fzl and high LSA so am Staying out of (under more accurately) the CB's

Ipad on yoke with Ozrunways, ipod plugged into audio, 3G coverage, heater on, very comfy. 3hours down, 5 to go.

By the way GA10, when do i get the 'next gen' seat that i know exists in prototyical form. Not all my crew have the anatomically correct arse that i do, and they are keen for the upgrade.

HD

[aeromariner]

So if you can't make the aeroplane climb, then it stands to reason then you are cruising at maximum power at about 100 kts. Remember in an airvan 1HP at the engine is about 6 fpm in rate of climb. I have flown in Botswana, and last time I sat in SAF she was cruising at 23/23 at about 110 kts. One pilot had her at nearly 120kts but that was 25/25. Now as I recall the 206 I also flew in in Botswana was running 23/23 and that was normally aspirated. The fuel flow meters seemed to be indicating 20US an hour at 23/23 which is about right. I've studied and applied the laws of aeronautics for 45 years,but if you know how a properly flown aeroplane can cruise on 75% power, but can't climb at 100% please enlighten me. Incidentally no pilot that I flew behind in Botswana climbed past the desired cruising altitude, set the power, and then pushed to a couple of knots above the desired cruising speed and let the aeroplane settle at the desired altitude and speed. And I've owned a PA28-180 with the orange band in the ASI so I know all about cruising piston singles

[aeromariner]

But hang on HD weren't you one of the contributors to the removal of the Coburg bus cushion around which the seat was designed to be replaced by the current item which seems to be little more than a kitchen sponge (and not as absorbent)

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Ipad on yoke with Ozrunways,

Actually an offence to mount anything on the yoke.
Apparently you need and STC to cover the extra weight in the column bearings.
Yet another clayton's offence in the arsenal.:rolleyes:

[lilflyboy262...2]

You flew with us then Aero.
SAF was my baby. You must have been there recently as those Airvans are only a few years old.
Do you remember who your pilots were?

[aeromariner]

April just passed .... had a lot of fun ... aeroplanes being used like they were intended.....give you the itinerary
maun to leroo le tau on the 6th. SAF about midday two pilots seemed a check flight
LLT back to Maun young lady pilot old C206 on the 8th (I once flew a much older C182 from oshkosh to OKC - different story)
Maun to Moremi with Serg in SAF on tuesday 10th
Moremi to Sevuti C206 on Thursday the 12th.
Sevuti to Chobe Saturday 14th with Serg in a C208.

SAF was the first turbo airvan I'd flown in. I'd spent years (literally) in the back of the two prototype Airvans, so I was interested as to why opinion on the turbo was so polarised, and from the middle of the pax cabin I was disappointed by the level of the noise and vibration. I wouldnt mind doing a one for one comparison between the standard and turbo with a noise meter.

The last flight (208) was a burning and turning turnaround and while Serg was distracted one of the already embarked passengers leapt out the LH rear door and RAN past the propeller - that got our attention. I think you might need to improve B&T ops (and yes you do have to cater for idiots) - you might want to discuss that offline

[lilflyboy262...2]

I no longer work with the company. I've moved onto Canada.

There isn't any turbo airvans in maun. SAF is definitely a standard engine!
Glad to hear you enjoyed the flights! Hope the girl did everything right! I did most of her line training...

The hot turn arounds with the Caravan are always hard. I made it a point to position myself between the pax and the propeller so never had any issues like that. Usually there is a barrier in place as well....

I can pass on your comments if you wish.

From a passenger perspective, what was the difference in noise level with the C206 to the GA8? What would you want improved?
I always felt the airvan was a much better aircraft for that environment.

[kiwialex]

I flew in the back of the turbo airvan when it was up in Maun for demonstrations. It was remarkably quiet and fast. Quieter in fact without a headset than with the low quality ones provided for us.

[aeromariner]

Well the back of SAF was not quiet. Most of the noise was coming from the door seal which needed some attention, and conversation was difficult. Both 206's I flew in did not have the wind rush - maybe better door seals. The vibration coming up through the floor was much greater than I remember in the prototypes so might be the three bladed prop. Maybe the engine mounts have been varied. And I've prepared prepared the odd "demonstration" aircraft myself, so I'm wary of that. The turbo should be a little quieter given the muffling effect of the turbo. lilflyboy262...2 your protege was fine ... didn't like chocolate Easter eggs though. What's the drill on feathering the PT6 for b&t turnarounds? Incidentally no barriers during dis/embarkation for b&t. KiwiAlex what was the MP and RPM?

[lilflyboy262...2]

Usually only feather over the concrete pads. Feathering over stones and gravel usually end up getting picked up and hit by the blade. Also get loads of dust being kicked up if there isn't a decent wind blowing it away. That's one of the last things you want getting sucked through the PT6.
As for the lack of barriers, I can't explain why there wasn't any there.

As for the Airvan comments, I will pass them on to the Ops Manager. Get him to have a look at them.

[aeromariner]

methinks some concrete might be in order then. If not as a pad for fx, then as a decent anchor point for some removeable barriers. It was trying to combine loading the pax and the luggage at the same time which caused the trouble. The guides can label the luggage if required, and they can put it near the pod allowing the captain to pay full attention to the pax. It would only take a minute to load the pod once all the pax were in the cabin and the door shut. An accident like this would be a devastating event for the company and well, you know how the world press and blogosphere would react.

[HarleyD]

Hi Aeromariner, long time no talk.

I am just back home after another 60 Airvan hours in the last couple of weeks amd ar$e is just fine, though i was certainly not responsible for the enduro foam substitution for the bus cusion. That original was excellent and i wish it was the one that was used. I believe they may also be used in some of the more comfortable train seats as well.

I agree that the vibes that the three blade turbo makes are a little more noticeable than the two blade normally aspirated version. And internal noise level seems (subjectively) a little more intrusive, though making the extra MAP is a likely conributer. I really prefer the NA two blader overall, ecxept for when the extra altitude performance of the TC allows cruise at FL180 when a big tailwind is available, 180 kt GS is nice and i regularly cruise the TC in the flight levels where the power can still be made, the TAS adds up and i can hunt for favourable winds. I still like the NA better all the same, it is nicer to fly and a bit smoother engine/prop combination i think. It also has a better useful load. It is only really when climb or altitude (above 10,000) performance is needed that the TC romps away.

I cruise the 2 blade NA at 25"MAP 2300 RPM 61 l/hr but this limits it to about 6000 ft. The TC likes to run at 30" and 2250 for 63 l/hr for a similar speed of about 128 TAS at the 6000 - 8000 ft mark and 131 at 10,000 ft

[aeromariner]

5 inches more MAP for 50 RPM and only 2 litres/hour doesn't sound right?

[VH-XXX]

I wonder if someone from PPRUNE land that we know was flying the VH registered AIRVAN in the VALDEZ landing comp?

Valdez Show 2012 | Ohio Bush Planes (http://ohiobushplanes.com/1/?page_id=209&utm_source=SuperCub.Org+Master+List&utm_campaign=44765d5f88-Feb2012_Update&utm_medium=email)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/airvan1.jpg

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/airvan2.jpg

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/airvan3.jpg

[jas24zzk]

Crikey! The Kodiaks launch looks a bit busy..

[aeromariner]

I don't think he is a blogger

[Checkboard]

I've always wondered at the advisability of a competition which encourages such low and slow flying.

I recognise the skill, and the usefulness in off-airport landings in the bush (delivering hunters, food etc to remote, no-runway locations) though.

[Mypost]

The RR 250B17F1 is 450 SHP not 715 as quoted.

[metalbasher]

To HD there are other seat cushions and seats out there you have just got look

[aeromariner]

gawd MB I thought you could have chosen a better monicker

[Mypost]

It was flown by Dave Morgan son of the co-founder of GippsAero, George Morgan.

[aeromariner]

Etiquette please

[HarleyD]

Etiquette...... fork in left hand and....."Is that a dagger I see before me?" :eek: !!

aeromariner - spent a week or so with PH in ZA for AAD in GP in late sept and he was about to deliver his 18th Airvan to Maun! top bloke! that Hansa beer was nice too.

Silicon door seals on later model Airvans is better quality than the older black rubber profile from clark rubber!! but the rear door seal, especially around the forward rocking latch still needs refinement. Despite numerous attempts to eliminate the draught, ,which may even be helpful in africa on a summer's day, that little jet of subzero air can get very annoying at altitude on a cold day. I dont often sit in back but tried every seat on a trans continetal flight recently. Row 3 left worst for drafts. row 4 left (centre) best for leg stretch and warm heater air but is resticted for cool overhead air. front left still my preferred seat.

acft i flew in ZA had Stec 50 A/P, Noice!! why didn't you think of that!

HD

[aeromariner]

STEC (aka Meggit) .... talk about taking a dagger to my heart you filthy swine. Has somebody done the STC? GM must be furious. What did he have the model 50 coupled to? You forget the superb inflight entertainment system I had in the back until I lent it to you and you broke it

[HarleyD]

PH has done a couple, this one had KFD840 driving it. Customer aircraft.

KAP 140 would have been easier to move than KFC 225, overkill for the GA8.

You never gonna forgive me for not pressing 'save' are you!

All the best for chrissy mate,

HD

[aeromariner]

I was discussing autopilots with some regulators just the other day in the context of automobiles and pointed out that new (in some states) aussie auto design rules, if translated to aircraft would require something like an STEC SYSTEM 20 being fitted as mandatory equipment. You've gotta wonder why some in GA are still clinging to the argument that (essentially) a wing leveller would encourage"bad habits" and so the aeroplane should be allowed to spiral instead. As standard equipment you'd probably get a bunch of SYSTEM 20s for less than 5 grand a pop. I can still remember the guy at STEC offering me a developmental A/P (SYSTEM 30 I think) and the variable gain box to put in my suitcase and bring home and the kybosh from Gippy management. It's good to see that chaps speccing out panels still behave like they're in a lolly shop - somethings will never change. Anyways Merry Xmas - I'll try to visit during the break.

[VH-XXX]

Oh dear, I heard a nasty rumour about an aircraft manufacturer in the Supreme Court recently. Is anyone here any good at searching past cases in the Supreme Court of Victoria so I can validate what I heard? I don't seem to be able to find the link.

[Arnold E]

you'd probably get a bunch of SYSTEM 20s for less than 5 grand a pop

Then how much to fit it?