EC130 vs AS350 in bush ops

[myskyheli]

Greetings all,

Looking for some genuine advice from thoses in the know...

We are looking at an operation where the width and vis of the EC130 would be advantageous. However, having operated 350's in this environment (B2's and B3's) I have concerns regarding the fenestron in a dusty bush environment.

If anyone has some first hand experience in operating the 130 to non-prepared landing sites, your observations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks. Fly safe.

MSH

[oge]

Operate both in very dusty bush environments. No problems with either.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs681.snc4/62108_429685690425_688000425_5646166_5510658_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs318.snc4/41226_415967790425_688000425_5314582_7798270_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs271.snc4/39867_415967775425_688000425_5314581_4359241_n.jpg

[EBCAU]

Actually like to operate the fenestron in the bush environment. It's a lot safer than an exposed T/R I feel. No problem that I can see with regards dust etc., that wont do the same to a T/R.
The 130 is a bit of a fat old girl though, compared to a 350, and viz going into confined area is is a bit less. It quite quickly starts to fill up the chosen landing site I find.

[myskyheli]

Many thanks guys, appreciate the feedback.

OGE - that's very similar terrain to where we play as well (but a different continent). Though your customers look like they have more fun than ours!

Cheers,

MSH

[ReverseFlight]

I don't think you'd have to worry too much about the EC130 unless you're doing scenic / tourism work. Taking off when she's fully laden with pax, the horn tends to squeal a bit when the collective is pulled.

[B Sousa]

Now why would the horn Squeal?? Ha Ha, we have all been there.

Anyway EC130 is just as good in the field as the A-star, maybe a bit heavier and designed more for fat ladened internal cargo, but fenestron will be safe long before the Tail rotor dings some branches.
MY choice would be a B3 for work, EC130 for hauling blobs of humanity.


OGE.......Looks like Genass might be involved in those photos.

[ECB4]

Be very careful when operating the B4 if there are small light stones (scoria) or relatively lightweight sharp objects in the vicinity. They will eat your fenestron blades for breakfast. Personal experience and USCG Dauphin!!! The B4 is a people mover B3 more versatile especially if you want the flat floor in a hurry. After a few thousand hours in a B4 I have had a gutsful of the vibration (seems to be a type specific issue, work in progress for the EC experts) and much happier chugging around in a very old but very smooth L3.
Horn going off?? If the LIMITATIONS section of the flight manual is complied with I doubt you will hear the horn. Be very careful if the breeze is between 4 to 6 oclock the fenestron will require gobs of power as you get close to the ground, lose that translational lift and the very effective large fin area gets a kick from the side and the MR blades interfere with the airflow. Simple solution, keep the wind in the nose, but it aint always possible in this wonderful game of an ever changing environment where lawyers and bean counters dictate from their climate controlled environment. Take care out there and keep some spare up your sleeve for mum and the kids.

[EBCAU]

As ECB4 said, regarding the horn going off, in moderate conditions you'd have to be either overloaded or ham fisted. But if you're hot and high then it's a different story.
One weak point as far as operations in rocky and uneven terrain is the spring steel rear skid extenders. These are not as robust as on the 350 and yet the helicopter is heavier. You can't see what they are landing on. They will end up bent. They don't like being straightened often. They will break off in time.

[myskyheli]

Thanks again folks for the feedback.

ECB4 - the vibration you speak of; is that constant of more obvious at certain weights, loadings or wind conditions? Would just like a heads-up if this is going to become an issue. And do any other B4 drivers have feedback on this one?

Thanks in advance.

MSH

[Bell_Flyer]

If you leave an EC-130 in say 40deg C heat, will the roof fall in or sag like an AS350? In other words, is the EC 130 interior plastic as good as say, a cheap Jap car?

Also, is the EC 130 aircon more sophisticated than an AS350 aircon, eg does it have a thermostat, do the bushes fall out if used continuously (say 8 hours a day)?

Thanks.
BF

[EBCAU]

the vibration you speak of; is that constant of more obvious at certain weights, loadings or wind conditions? Would just like a heads-up if this is going to become an issue. And do any other B4 drivers have feedback on this one?

Unfortunately I thinks it's one of worst features of the machine. Some are worse than others. You can tune the vibes around the cabin but you can't tune them out. Increased weight = smoother ride. Can get harsh from any speed above about 100 kts if light.


If you leave an EC-130 in say 40deg C heat, will the roof fall in or sag like an AS350? In other words, is the EC 130 interior plastic as good as say, a cheap Jap car?

All I have been associated with had leather so no problem.


Also, is the EC 130 aircon more sophisticated than an AS350 aircon, eg does it have a thermostat, do the bushes fall out if used continuously (say 8 hours a day)?

There are two versions I think and if you are anywhere there is likely to be 40 degrees C then you need the tropical one. That's a bit ugly inside the cockpit though and I've not used one. It had better be an improvement on the temperate model. That struggles on a warm day and throw in a load of sweaty pax and it hardly copes.
Never had troubles beyond initial teething problems where it only worked sometimes. The temperate model only has a two position switch thermostat, IIRC. No experience with AS350 aircon to compare it with.

[GoFenestron]

Need an outside opinion. Hope you could give me your opinion about the following.

I am hooked on the fenestron tail rotor and others seem to be old fashioned.:)
Buying a second hand EC120 would be great but power is a problem.
That leaves me with the EC130 who has the power but cabin is a bit big.

What I would like to do with her leaves me with questions about if she will do the job?

What I first need to ask is if the EC130 is easy to handle, when doing crop spraying? At 3000ft.max 20 degree temp. What spray system for the EC130?
The rest of the time will be for my individual use,flying to meetings alone, or with 1 or 2 employees. 3000-6000ft 2 hours trip non stop.
When flying alone I heard that above 100knots she willbe shaking me to frustration. What year models could have this problem or all of them?
Then the last job will be to fly my family of 5 (meincluded), total weight of 350kg. With baggage max total of about430kg. 3000-6000ft. Max 33 degrees mid day also minimum 2 hours.
Will I find my ideal helicopter?
The AS350 will be ideal but has no fenestron. The EC120 is great but lack power. When will Airbus allow an AS350 engine in the EC120?:=
Then there is the Gazelle SA341 to do the above? Parts could become a problem?

A lot of questions and clearly I am not sure what the best should be.....

Thanks

[Mee3]

Need an outside opinion. Hope you could give me your opinion about the following.

I am hooked on the fenestron tail rotor and others seem to be old fashioned.:)
Buying a second hand EC120 would be great but power is a problem.
That leaves me with the EC130 who has the power but cabin is a bit big.

What I would like to do with her leaves me with questions about if she will do the job?

What I first need to ask is if the EC130 is easy to handle, when doing crop spraying? At 3000ft.max 20 degree temp. What spray system for the EC130?
The rest of the time will be for my individual use,flying to meetings alone, or with 1 or 2 employees. 3000-6000ft 2 hours trip non stop.
When flying alone I heard that above 100knots she willbe shaking me to frustration. What year models could have this problem or all of them?
Then the last job will be to fly my family of 5 (meincluded), total weight of 350kg. With baggage max total of about430kg. 3000-6000ft. Max 33 degrees mid day also minimum 2 hours.

Will I find my ideal helicopter?
The AS350 will be ideal but has no fenestron. The EC120 is great but lack power. When will Airbus allow an AS350 engine in the EC120?:=
Then there is the Gazelle SA341 to do the above? Parts could become a problem?

A lot of questions and clearly I am not sure what the best should be.....

Thanks
130 is the 350 with fenestron.

Be sure never get a B4.

If you wonder the ride, T2 is the smooth ride version of b3.

[GoFenestron]

Jip


They have the same engine but cab is much bigger and how will that change handling during crop spraying?
Would have been great to have the same engine in the EC120 with a stronger body.
Then the EC130B vibration question above 100knts?
Ai, seems I will have to wait for a second hand T2 and that will not be soon...

[Jelico]

I fly both regularly and really like the confidence of the fenestron in tight spaces. Also find the visibility out of the 130 pretty good. I would happily say I would put a 130 anywhere I would put a squirrel. That being said the squirrel is a lot nicer and smoother to fly than either of the B4's we operate. If speed is a requirement then the squirrel will be quicker. Lots of room in the 130 if you get the folding rear seat option too..

[GoFenestron]

That remains my problem, as a fenestron fan.
Speed, handling and lift all in one fenestron heli...
Looking at others talking about EC130B handling it seems that there will be problems above 100knts during a low weight flight.
Then again a pilot, a while back on a website, mentioned there are a few EC130B's who are without the vibration problem.
Anybody who can confirm this pilot's claim?
An affordable second hand T2 will take me a lot more years...