Garmin 1000

[simsam]

Hi

Thinking about hiring a Garmin 1000 equipped 172. This one don't have the integrated Garmin autopilot.

My understanding is: you have to set QNH 3 places and cleared altitude 2 places? I assume it is a good habit to always keep the two altitude selectors in sync?

Also, do you normally manipulate the Garmin controls with your right hand? E.g. tune nav radio, set heading using the right hand display? And do flight plan manipulation on the PFD?

One more question, what approach speed do you use for IFR? I assume flaps up? Any other things to keep in mind?



Simsam

[PPRuNeUser0163]

Simsam,

QNH is set on the AAI KAP 140 autopilot, as well as under the pfd altitude by crs outer knob and on the standby altimeter.. set these

Altitude is set on the KAP140 and on the PFD altitude bug with the range knob . Set these in tandem again!

right/left hand doesnt really matter with manipulating- just remember aviate, navigate, communicate- if your gonna have a look around the various systems set qnhs etc keep one hand on the controls (if off autopilot) and the other doing that..

flight plan- enter on MFD and then once done- u can leave it on PFD so MFD can display moving map..

172 is CAT A in IFR performance wise.. flaps usually come down 500' above the mda/dh or whenever practical and flaps 10 if your circling.. thats how we did it anyways!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

172 is CAT A in IFR performance wise

It is?

How is that determined? Is it somehow dictated by the aircraft type, or is it determined by the speed at which you choose to fly approaches?

On the rare occassions that I slum it IFR in a C172, I have driven it down the ILS at 100 kts - which would make it Cat B !

I save all of the flap for when I am visual. Given that you could land and TO of C172 four or five times in the length of any runway is Oz that has an ILS, slowing down, getting some flap out and making the runway should not be an issue.

Dr :8

PS: If you are as unfamiliar with G1000 gear as it seems, do yourself a favour and don't go IFR until you know it like the back of your hand.

[PPRuNeUser0163]

FTK,

it is Cat A.. no qs asked really! final app speeds cat a 70-100 , versus 85-130 for cat B..

172 needs to slow below 85 kts to get stage 2 flaps or more out meaning you could not achieve this on finals if you flew it Cat B lol:=

Also- check the Vat..

Nkand

[Trent 972]

AIP ENR 1.5
Aircraft Performance Category
The following categories, based upon Vat (except for CAT H), determine landing minima for aircraft:
CAT: A speeds up to 90KT IAS.
B speeds from 91KT to 120KT IAS.
C speeds from 121KT to 140KT IAS.
D speeds from 141KT to 165KT IAS.
E speeds from 166KT to 210KT IAS.
H (helicopters) see sub-section 1.3.
Note: Vat is the indicated airspeed at the threshold which is equal to the stalling speed Vso multiplied by 1.3 or the stalling speed Vs1g multiplied by 1.23. Both Vso and Vs1g apply to aircraft in the landing configuration at the maximum certificated landing weight. If both Vso and Vs1g are available for an aircraft, the higher resulting Vat must be used.
1.2.2 An aircraft must fit into and be operated in accordance with the requirements of only one category.
An aircraft:
a. may not reduce category because of reduced operating weight, but
b. must increase category when actual handling speeds are in excess of those for category (based on Vat) detailed at sub-section 1.15.

Range of Final Approach Speeds
Cat A 70 − 100 knots
Cat B 85 − 130 knots

Cessna 172 Vat approx 52 knots (stall speed full flap approx. 40 knots x 1.3) = Cat A
I doubt you can argue to be Cat B just because you felt like flying the final approach faster.

[j3pipercub]

Oh FFS, drive your awesome fully sick C172 down the ILS at 70kts groundspeed if you must, but I think you'll find it'll go better at 120kts, less drift etc...

Please note that 1.2.2 may be waived in the circumstance of a CAR 217 Approved Company.

j3

[Trent 972]

I think you have an incorrect interpretation there J3
Please note that 1.2.2 may be waived in the circumstance of a CAR 217 Approved Company.




Provided an aircraft can be operated within the limits of the handling speeds (detailed at Sub-section 1.15) for a lower category than the category determined by Vat, and subject to approval by CASA, an operator whose crew(s) operate under a CAR 217 training and checking organisation may operate that aircraft type at the lower category. When such an approval is granted, all company operations of the aircraft type must be in accordance with the requirements of the revised category.

[j3pipercub]

No, that's what I was getting at.

[Trent 972]

Well then, if that's what you're getting at, and also saying that you can
Oh FFS, drive your awesome fully sick C172 down the ILS at 70kts groundspeed if you must, but I think you'll find it'll go better at 120kts, less drift etc...


Then you're just plain wrong.
Max speed for IFR final in a C172 is 100 knots.
It is and always will be a performance CAT A aircraft.

Edit
J3, you are aware that CAR 217 is only applicable to aircraft with a MTOW >5,700 kg, aren't you? Or do you have a really big C172?

[das Uber Soldat]

Popcorn time. :E

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

172 needs to slow below 85 kts to get stage 2 flaps or more out meaning you could not achieve this on finals if you flew it Cat B lol:=

You couldn't? :confused:

Dr :8

[j3pipercub]

Really Trent, didn't know that, wow you learn something everyday!! :ugh:

[Trent 972]

Yep you're right.
Today, I learned that you don't know what you're talking about.

[muffman]

It is and always will be a performance CAT A aircraft.

Why? It clearly says ".... must increase category when actual handling speeds are in excess of those for category (based on Vat)"

So if the C172 is Cat A based on its Vat, but you intend flying to speeds that would fit it into Cat B, then you can go ahead with the full support of the AIP/Jepp. The only catch is you can't pick and choose in flight - if you want to fly a Cat B final approach speed, you have to also be able to maintain all the other Cat B speeds.

"An aircraft must fit into and be operated in accordance with the requirements of only one category"

I doubt you can argue to be Cat B just because you felt like flying the final approach faster.
The text of the AIP/Jepp doesn't support that assertion. You can, and many operators do. The catch is you have to be able to maintain all of the Cat B speeds - not just the final app.

I have had the misfortune of many hours IFR in G1000 C172s and always found it sat very comfortably at the upper end of Cat A. Cat B would require holding at 65+% power to maintain the minimum IAS.

To the original poster, please get yourself some proper instruction on the C172 and particularly the G1000 before blasting off in it IFR. You will get yourself into trouble if you are unfamiliar with the glass and you won't see it coming. Glass is a very efficient weapon in the hands of a poorly trained user.

[Trent 972]

Reasonable argument Muff, but in the specific case of a 172SP (down and welded gear) with a normal cruise TAS of 115 knots (older 172's 110 knots), how reasonable is it to expect that it would be able to maintain a minimum (perf Cat B speed) of 120 knots indicated during a level segment of an Initial Approach, as per AIP ENR 1.5 sub 1.15.1.
P!ssing in the wind, is the phrase that comes to mind.

Edit
The intent of the ability to change performance category is surely not to be decided each and every flight. I operate an aircraft that is flown to a different perf category to that which its Vat would otherwise say. But each and every pilot must operate it on every flight to that category. Besides in the case of a C172, which handling speed would require it to be operated in Cat B. Apart from Vne and Vno, Va @ MTOW is the only limit speed that cracks 100 knots.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

All finger pointing aside...isn't a good idea to be able to fly an approach at higher than recomended to fit in with higher performance traffic?

[muffman]

No arguments there Trent, I've always found the 172 fits into Cat A perfectly. The holding/initial approach speed for Cat B is a bit of a struggle without flogging the arse out of it and burning a lot of fuel to go around in circles. The more practical use of the rule is a lot of small light twins or big singles that have a very similar Vat to the C172, but are easily capable of maintaining the Cat B speeds.

As for higher performance traffic, if the approach is a timed reversal it shouldn't really matter how fast you're going, it will still take the same time. The ILS is probably the main one where you get caught out, and in that case ATC will usually ask for best speed, which in my mind at least means you can disregard the category speed limitations.

Other than that, if I'm in the clag conducting an instrument approach in a 172 I reckon I've got enough things going against me without knowingly breaking the rules to facilitate the earlier arrival of someone else!

[Trent 972]

Total agreement with regards some light twins, Muff.
This discussion started with the Learned Good Doctor asking why he couldn't fly different category speeds in a C172. Changing the approach speeds, however does not change the 'Performance Category'. If flying an IFR approach in CTA, ATC will expect compliance with Perf Cat speeds, but that does not preclude either party in asking for a modified speed profile. (as you said)
The whole 'reason for being' for performance categories is explained in CAAP 178-1(1) Non-Precision Approaches (http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/178-1.pdf)

WHAT ARE THE STANDARDS REQUIRED FOR THE PUBLICATION OF A RUNWAY APPROACH?
Alignment. To avoid the necessity to conduct turns close to the ground, the alignment of the final approach course needs to be closely aligned to the runway centreline. PANS-OPS design rules permit the final approach course to intersect the extended runway centerline at an angle up to 30° for Category A/B procedures and at up to 15° for Category C/D. The final approach course also needs to intersect the extended runway centerline at a sufficient distance from the threshold to allow a turn onto the runway heading to be completed safely.


Edit.
I also commend Muffs and FTDK's warning to the original post re caution in a G1000 C172 without being on top of your game. I fly 'Glass' for a living, and the glass 172 needs a lot more attention than an A380 does.

[BurntheBlue]

G1000, great choice.

Use your right hand to manipulate everything Garmin, it's all there so right hand makes sense.

nkand offers good advice... and here's a little more detail that'll put your approach in good stead.

Intercepting your approach profile, lower the nose and back off that power just enough to keep your speed from tipping 120KTS. Should give you a nice approach all the way to 500' above MDA/DA. Reduce to 1500RPM. Should slow to Flap speeds with plenty of room to spare.

I will re-affirm muffman when he said...

Glass is a very efficient weapon in the hands of a poorly trained user.

...and will add that it is also an unparalleled tool in IFR if used to it's capacity.

Have fun.:)

[Rickford]

Having to teach said equipment & ac can I say

1. Master the G1000 before you try flying in real IFR. It is excellent equipment but really does its best to tempt you away from AVIATE when the world is developing the shape of a pear.

2. Cat A /B . I would suggest that this is irrelevant once you are flying the ILS. Speed has all the advantages(provided you are ahead of the ac) in a 172 doing an ILS as it significantly reduces wind effect. Remember this a light ac where its ils approach speed can varied between 100kts and 75kts with few adverse effects (yes we can go both faster & slower) but if the aim is to make the approach easier then faster is my choice. However, once visual does this change? of course it does we want slower and given:

a. Despite many of the 172s good points slipperyness isn't one of them
b. From the 172 world ILS & short runway is an oxymoron

Visual should be power back configure for landing and (in all likelihood) be able to taxi off the runway before the ILS touchdown point.

[simsam]

Thanks for all the feedback.

After playing with the the Garmin 1000 trainer this weekend I realised (again) that it is all about knowing the system very well before going IMC.

simsam

[LeadSled]

Folks,
In this wonderful argument about your ABCs, you seem to have missed the point of why have a category set of speeds.

"Tis all about the obstacle clearance envelope and the minima for a class --- with different minima (usually) for each category ---- excluding low weather minima operations, which shouldn't worry you too much in Australia, as any Cat11/111 ILS installations are very thin on the ground.

If you want to fly an approach speed for a higher cat., just use the higher minima, if applicable. If you can't maintain all the higher speeds, the only thing that will happen is you will hold up other aircraft, hill abatement will not be the problem.

If you are really keen, settle down one evening with ICAO Doc. 8168, it's all in there.

With regulatory approval, you can reduce a category, which means flying the lower speeds for the lower category. A number of operators have this approval for YBCS, so they can get a lower minima.

Tootle pip

[Ted D Bear]

Using a higher category can expand your circling area too (even though it means a higher miminum circling height) - handy in places like Bankstown at night if you don't wanna get a clearance :ok: