The first aircraft to cross the atlantic about to be found?

[KAG]

Found in the Edmonton Journal:retired pilot Bernard Decre says archival records he has found in the U.S. bolster the theory that Nungesser and Coli -- who were co-piloting a plane dubbed "L'Oiseau Blanc" (White Bird) for their transatlantic bid -- didn't crash in the English Channel or off the coast of Ireland as many observers believed at the time
Lindbergh not the first: researcher (http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/todays-paper/French+pair+nearly+beat+Lindbergh+researcher/3662115/story.html)

http://s1.lemde.fr/image/2010/11/10/540x270/1438292_3_41fd_le-telegramme-des-gardes-cotes-americains.jpg
Really interesting for the ones interested in aviation history and misterious stories...

The clues may lead them to the aircraft itself... Anybody know more about it?

[BobM2]

The first aircraft to cross the Atlantic was a Vickers Vimy in 1919.

[Bernoulli]

Errr, does anyone outside Blighty remember Alcock & Brown who flew from Newfoundland to Ireland 14/15 June 1919?

Or am I missing something obvious?

[Rengineer]

The first were John Alcock and Arthur Witten Brown, who crossed from Newfoundland to Ireland in their Vickers Vimy, in June 1919. In fact, they were the first to do it non-stop. A flight of some US navy flying boats, shortly before, made stops on the way, so is usually not counted.

[pedant mode on] Nungesser and Coli were going for the Orteig price on a direct Paris-New York flight. So even if they had managed to land at say St Pierre et Miquelon, which of course would be a significant achievement given the weather and the capabilities of their plane, they'd be around 1000 miles short of New York. [pedant mode off]

It's sort of heartwarming that the tragic mystery of their disappearance may actually be solved someday. But in any case, I have a feeling this thread belongs in another forum...

[stepwilk]

Well, let's make it "possibly the first aircraft to cross nonstop from France to the United States, although ultimately unsuccessfully."

Anyway, TIGHAR (The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery) have been searching for l'Oiseau Blanc since the 1980s. I went on one of their Maine ground expeditions, and they've since tried Newfoundland as well. Go to their website--tighar.org--and you'll learn more about the White Bird than you ever wanted to know.

I'd be careful of thinking the airplane is "about to be found." The search has been going on with a variety of ground and airborne equipment for decades. I flew my Comanche on one of the aerial searches as well, in fact.

Oh, and the most recent wacky theorization has it having been shot down by the Mafia because they thought it was an airplane looking for their St. Pierre et Miquelon to Boston smuggling boats. There are claims that a "white wing" was seen floating in Boston Harbor...

[KAG]

Wow I am impressed, I didn't know that one of the posters here took part of an expedition searching for "l'oiseau blanc".

There is some movies about this story, I guess what happened will remain mysterious for some time. Anyway I was not aware of the existence of this flight, hope we will know more about it soon.

Interesting to hear about the Vickers Vimy, in June 1919 aswell. Interesting to notice they flew from west to east, like Lindbergh did.

Concerning the "white bird", they really beleived at that time that trying to cross from east to west or west to east was the same? Weird decision to fly from east to west when it comes to this kind of challenge.

[stepwilk]

I assume they flew westbound because the cost and logistics of shipping a French airplane and its crew to the U. S. as the starting point was way beyond their budget. Remember, these were by no means cost-no-object operations; more likely they were shoestring projects that few people cared about, at least before Lindbergh was successful.

[Rengineer]

KAG,

as far as I know Nungesser and Coli tried a westbound crossing for the simple reason that they would be making the last 1000 miles or so above land, rather than water. They expected it to be safer that way. They had calculated the range of the plane to be sufficient for their attempt in favourable winds, and conditions certainly were favourable when they left. Coli was not only a well-known pilot and navigator but also a former seaman, so would have known a deal about the weather conditions.

stepwilk,

I'm not sure about the shoestring. Nungesser and Coli had their aircraft donated to them by the Levasseur company and they were minor media stars in France. And certainly all the contestants in the former 1919 Atlantic crossing competition had transported their planes to Newfoundland by sea, so the cost would probably not have been that outrageous. One has to consider that there was also enormous prestige attached, so sponsors would have been ready, one assumes.

[BOAC]

Where is that lat and long???

[Neptunus Rex]

Just to set the record straight for 'The Cousins,' the first non-stop Atlantic crossing was by Sir John Alcock and Sir Arthur Whitten Brown on 14/15 June 1919.
The first solo crossing of the Atlantic was by Charles Lindbergh on 20 May 1927 - almost 8 years later.

Capice?

[Rengineer]

Neptunus,

let's be quite correct: At the time they were just Capt. Alcock and Lt. Brown. They were both knighted after the flight. ;)

[goldfish85]

Lindbergh was the 67th person to fly the Atlantic two airships had already flown it and one, the R-100 made a round trip from the UK to Canada.


Goldfish

[stepwilk]

Yes, but none of them stayed awake for 50-odd hours straight (the flight plus his sleepless night and day before) while flying an airplane solo without an autopilot. I consider that to be a superhuman accomplishment.

[DC10RealMan]

Lt Brown may have had more sleep but then he did climb out onto the wing in flight, in the dark, and in Mid-Atlantic, flashlight in hand to manually clear the ice from the air intake of the Rolls-Royce Eagle engines.

[stepwilk]

Good on him.

[kotakota]

Gentlemen , let us not demean the achivements of any who flew the Atlantic before the jet-age . Alcock and Brown , Lindbergh , Beryl Markham ( my personal favourite because I actually met her a few times in our Kenya days , those of you unfamiliar with her exploits would do well to Google her and read her books , especially 'West with the night') All these super humans should be celebrated , not fought over.

[Neptunus Rex]

Rengineer
You are undoubtedly quite correct. However, your grudging pedantry would also deny that Sir Edmund Hillary was the first to conquer Mount Everest; that Sir Ian Botham was the fastest to the double of 1000 runs and 100 wickets in Test Cricket, that Sir Horatio Nelson was not the victor of the Battle of Cape St Vincent (and many others before Trafalgar) or that Sir Laurence Olivier was the greatest British actor of all time.

You're not French, are you?

[Ford Transit]

It was in the Science Museum (http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/I042/10311361.aspx) all along :)

Pete

[bartonflyer]

..... he did climb out onto the wing in flight, in the dark, and in Mid-Atlantic, flashlight in hand to manually clear the ice from the air intake of the Rolls-Royce Eagle engines.

eee by gum, trouble with them Rolls Royce engines even in them days!!

[stepwilk]

"Rengineer
You are undoubtedly quite correct. However, your grudging pedantry..."

I would put this on goldfish85, not rengineer.

[Rengineer]

Neptunus,

Tensing Norgay would probably never have gone up Mt Everest on his own, so I consider Sir Edmund Hillary still the greatest mountaineer of the lot. The others, I must confess I'm not in a position to argue, knowing too little about them. But I read up on the battle of Cape St Vincent just now and it seems to me Nelson's actions decided the thing, so he should be seen as the victor.

Concerning the greatest British actor of all time, all I can say is that I consider Dame Diana Rigg the greatest British actress of all time :E:E. And concerning my own home, you're close but no cookie - come on, two more guesses!:hmm:

kotakota, pleeease tell of your encounter with Beryl Markham! She's been my secret passion ever since I read "West with the Night" something like 30 years ago. [sigh] And BTW, you're darn right about those early aviators.:D

[Rengineer]

stepwilk, thanks for your moral support! :O

[fox niner]

Well.

In the report is says:

37.06 north 72.46 west found piece of wreckage...etc.

that would put it a few hundred miles off the coast of Norfolk, Virginia.

[protectthehornet]

the first plane to cross the atlantic was the NC4, a US Navy curtiss flying boat, piloted by US Navy aviators and US coast guard aviator. It was in the company of 2 other NC's or Nancy's as the press called them.

THE NC4 was the first and made it to the azores, where it proceeded up the european coast eventually to plymouth, england. the planes were originally designed to combat the U boat menace of World War 1...the flight demonstrated another way of getting war airplanes to the front, albeit after the war. The other two NC aircraft kept their crews safe but didn't make it all the way.

The NC4 achievment was celebrated like none other before it, with special medals awarded, a musical piece called "the NC4 March" was composed and was wildly popular(it is the basis of the fight song for my high school) and there was a major parade in New York upon their return. Anyone interested in this event should read, "First Across". Unique navigation methods and the first wireless communication between plane and a battleship.


To not ''count'' the NC4's achievement is just NUTS! The NC4 is safely on display at the US Navy air museum in Pensacola, Florida, USA.
Certainly alcock and brown in their vickers vimy did something great, but I don't think they made their true destination, as they landed in a bogg in ireland. newfoundland to ireland is a shorter flight than new york to paris.

Let us also understand what Lindbergh did. He flew nonstop from New York to Paris. that it was solo across the atlantic was only a minor addition (though it proved an incredible achievment).

It should also be noted that one of the first things Lindbergh asked about upon landing in Paris was the status of nungesser and coli.

[protectthehornet]

it should be noted that nungesser & coli's plane was designed to jettision its landing gear after takeoff to reduce drag...the intent was to land the plane in New York harbor...maybe near sully's spot????????????;-)

[Rengineer]

hornet,

just how straight is straight?

Read in his NC4 flying boat achieved a remarkable first and deserves recognition for that, but it was by no means a non-stop crossing. He took ten days and a large number of relays at warships specially sent into place for the occasion. It was the first crossing, yes, but it's a bit like saying you could walk from Marathon to Athens in a couple of days. No offense meant, and please no more of this "mine was before yours".

Alcock's and Brown's goal was to win the 10.000 pounds prize for the first transatlantic flight from the US, Newfoundland (!) or Canada to Great Britain or Ireland in under 72 hours, offered by the Daily Mail. They won that.

Nungesser and Coli officially were only after the world distance record, though of course were considered by the public to be in contention for the Orteig prize from NY to Paris. And of course, Lindbergh would enquire about them - the pilots in those days might have been competitors, but they respected each other greatly. In fact I feel we, with our pitiful recounting and comparisons of their various achievements, could learn a lot from those guys and gals who actually did it.

Cheers to the aviators!:D

[barit1]

If you can find a copy, Atlantic Fever by Edward Jablonski (MacMillan, 1972) puts all these flights in perspective.

[stepwilk]

Shouldn't this thread be moved to "Aviation History and Nostalgia"? I can't imagine it "affects our jobs and lives as professional pilots."

[protectthehornet]

The accomplishment of the naval aviators of the NC-4 was somewhat eclipsed in minds of the public by the first nonstop transatlantic flight, which took 15 hours and 57 min and was made by the British pilots John Alcock and Arthur Whitten Brown, two weeks later. However, Alcock and Brown's flight was just between Ireland and Newfoundland (both of which are islands), but the flight of the NC-4 was definitely between the mainland of North America (in the United States and in Nova Scotia) and the mainland of Europe (in Portugal).

I think this excerpt from the wikipedia article on the NC4 should settle this. I hope you will all ""google'''' NC4 wiki and read about this fascinating flight.

the portion to the azores was nonstop...if we are counting islands like you are!

[henry crun]

Anyone who has an interest in this general subject should try and find a copy of "Atlantic Air Conquest, The complete story of all North Atlantic flights and attempts during the pioneer years from 1910 to 1940".
Written by F.H.Ellis & E.M.Ellis, published in 1963 by William Kimber &Co. Ltd

Edit: It is available from that large mail order book place that starts with A.

[Rengineer]

hc, thanks for the pointer to the book. Another nice one is "The Pathfinders" by David Nevin.

Slight Thread Drift:

It's interesting to note that by the time of Nungesser and Coli's flight, there was already a combined air/sea mail service underway across the South Atlantic. Direct air mail, using flying boats and support ships rather like NC4, started in 1928 by Aéropostale.

And then there is this note I found on Wikipedia while looking up the operations of Syndicato Condor and Lufthansa on the South Atlantic:

"The Portuguese military aviator Sarmento de Beiras and his crew made the first night aerial crossing of the South Atlantic in a Dornier J named Argos. The crossing was made on the night of 17 March 1927 from Portuguese Guinea to Brazil."
Does anyone have more details on that flight? It seems to have slipped most popular accounts of aviation history.

[Tankertrashnav]

Interesting to hear about the Vickers Vimy, in June 1919 as well.

Bizarre that anyone sufficiently interested in transatlantic flight to post on the subject should not previously have been aware of when the first flight across the Atlantic took place, or who made it.

[barit1]

Aviation history seems a sorely neglected subject in today's "education" mills. There are plenty of great resources available - hardcopy and online - but it takes a bit of effort to track them down. :=

One good starting place - aside from this thread, and the Pprune AH&N topic - is Transatlantic flight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight) :ok:

[Schiller]

More pedantry.

Nelson wasn't the victor of the battle of Cape St Vincent. Admiral John Jervis, later Earl St Vincent, commanded the fleet. Nelson, then a Commodore, was junior to three other admirals as well.

[India Four Two]

Rengineer,

from the US, Newfoundland (!) or Canada

I'm intrigued by your exclamation mark. If you are wondering why Newfoundland is listed separately from Canada, it is because until 1949, it was a separate British Dominion and not part of Canada.

[Jig Peter]

(Sorry Mods, for following rengineer's drift)

Aéropostale's services actually started on Christmas Day 1918 when one of Mr. Latécoère's war surplus Bréguet 14s that he had built flew air mail from Toulouse to Barcelona - one of the first international air services. The line later extended down the Spanish and African coasts, ending in Santiago.
Antoine de St-Exupéry was one of the pilots, and while managing a Saharan station, found the time to write some memorable books.
Following the true French tradition of being unable to believe that anything could exist south of Paris, Latécoère's airline was fought by means fair and foul by Paris-based Air France.
The Latécoère name continues in the industry, however, as a supplier to Airbus inter alia - and Paris these days does recognise (sometimes) that there is life south of the "Island of France".

[Rengineer]

India,
thanks for the precision. I had surmised as much and that was why I put the exclamation mark, but wasn't sure.

Jig Peter,
you're right about Latécoère, but - correct me if I'm wrong - I seem to remember from the recent piece in Le Monde about him that the company first bore his own name, and wasn't called Aéropostale until 1927. They had established the Dakar base - with Saint-Ex as a station head along the route - in 1924, though.
The link to Nungesser and Coli? Well, there isn't really one. Their two stories are two different. Latécoère stands for the sensible approach, doing the impossible one step at a time. Nungesser and Coli - for me anyway - represent the way the French often like to do it, great, proud, against all odds, "gloire ou mort".

In any case, the coast guard document that launched this thread would seem to contradict another theory about N&C, that they crash-landed somewhere in Newfoundland, such as discussed by TIGHAR mentioned early on by stepwilk. So I was wondering, does it make sense in this thread to discuss that theory for a bit?

[stepwilk]

Actually, the initial TIGHAR theory was that they crashed in Maine, near Machias. After probably a dozen expeditions to that area, they began their own kind of thread drift and started to pursue rumors that had them forced-landing in Newfoundland and maybe one or two other places. It's all on their website.

When I was involved briefly with the project--mainly to write an Air & Space Smithsonian article about the quest--the legends surrounding the supposed crash (the engine, described in great detail by locals, had been found and dragged away by a farmer; dozens of people swore they heard the airplane go over in the middle of the night, at a time when -no- airplanes went over northern Maine, etc.) were so pervasive and persuasive that when I was in the woods searching, I was -sure- we'd see the entire airplane just over the next rise.

Weird bit of minutiae about the whole TIGHAR thing: Their searching in Maine was set off by an obscure article on l'Oiseau Blanc and the Maine connection in a regional magazine, Yankee, written by one Gunnar Hansen, the guy who played Leatherface, the chainsaw murderer in the cult film "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre."

[Noyade]

Weird bit of minutiae about the whole TIGHAR thing:Now that IS interesting Stepwilk! Many thanks! As the father of the next Leatherface contender any new information TCM related will assist him in his promising career.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/8237/gunnerk.jpg (http://img192.imageshack.us/i/gunnerk.jpg/)

(He tells me that Hansen was paid only $800 for his role in The Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Hopefully he got more for writing magazine articles?!)

[Jig Peter]

rengineer - I didn't know that the Aéropostale name came into being after the airmail service had begun to extend south - Latécoère's aim was always to "do" air mail. During my former contacts with an aero-savvy Toulouse journalist and air historian , the operation was always referred to as "Aéropostale".
Montaudran airfield from which they flew, to the south-east of Toulouse town, is still in use for private flying, and I think the original Aéropostale office buildings are still there, perhaps with a preservation order on them - the airfield is beside the southbound A61 motorway opposite the Cîté de l'Espace, with its full-scale Ariane mock-up.

PS: For all its other and various merits, Le Monde is Paris-based ...

[Rengineer]

JP,

wasn't Montaudran the one with a public road right across the runway?

[Footless Halls]

I don't mean to sound pedantic but I am quite surprised that nobody has yet correctly identified the first aircraft to fly non-stop across the Atlantic from east to west, and indeed also the first aircraft to fly non-stop across the Atlantic from west to east.

Contrary to popular opinion, neither Alcock and Brown nor, less plausibly, Lindberg hold either of these records. The answer is the British rigid airship R34, and the full story is here (http://www.aht.ndirect.co.uk/airships/r34/R34-Altanticflight.html)

This is not to denigrate any of the other aviators, but simply to place Major Scott and his crew's achievement in context.

Incidentally, is it really true that when General Lindberg, as he had become, was settled into an early PanAm 707 for a transatlantic crossing, the hostess greated him with the immortal words: 'Welcome aboard, General Lindberg. Is this your first time across the Atlantic?'

[ionagh]

Yes, Montaudran has a road that crosses the runway and is non-operational. It is beside the A620 SE of the city. However the airfield referred to by Jig Peter is called Lasbordes. They are about 1km apart.

[Jig Peter]

Still does - though it's a good few years since I went there.

Ionagh - As someone quotable said "Times change and we are changed with them" (think he said it in rhythmical Latin).

[barit1]

Incidentally, is it really true that when General Lindberg, as he had become, was settled into an early PanAm 707 for a transatlantic crossing, the hostess greated him with the immortal words: 'Welcome aboard, General Lindberg. Is this your first time across the Atlantic?'

Can't be. For one thing, he spelled his name LINDBERGH. :)

[Neptunus Rex]

Footless Halls
Without wishing to denigrate the magnificent achievements of Major Scott and his crew, who actually made a return trip, from your link:
The damage caused the ship to be laid up to be repaired, it was this incident which caused the delay in the trip to the USA, and hence loosing (sic) the title of the "first to cross the Atlantic" to Alcock and Brown.Major Scott landed in New York on 6th July 1919.
Alcock and Brown landed in Ireland on 15th June 1919, 21 days earlier.

[Footless Halls]

oops. Sorry folks. Still good intentions...

[Lou Scannon]

There was some confusion amongst the press as to which of the first crew to cross the Atlantic was the pilot and which was the navigator.

It was never published at the time, but the two men would help by the pilot calling from the cockpit:

"Remember...it's Allcock in front" and the navigator would then add... "and a Brown behind!"

Their statue is at Manchester Airport still I believe.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The Alcock & Brown memorial sculpture is indeed still at Manchester Airport, albeit a bit out of the way in a corner on the first floor of the bus / train station. When I conduct college student tours at the airport I always include it, and point out that contrary to common misunderstanding, these guys, not Lindbergh, were the first.

[Kieron Kirk]

Shaggy Sheep Driver,

There is also a memorial to Alcock and Brown out in the wilds of Connemara, Co. Galway, Ireland.

It can be found at Ballinaboy, near Clifden, from which one can also see the cairn in the middle of Derrigimla bog where the Vimy landed on the 15th June 1919.

Several years ago, I met several Americans at Ballinboy who could not believe that Lindberg was not the first pilot to fly the Atlantic.

It can be clearly seen on Google Earth, but looks too awkward to post a link to a Google Earth placemark.


Ciarain.

[stepwilk]

Look, let's be serious and not too chauvinistic. I suppose there are people who actually think Lindbergh was the first person "to fly the Atlantic," but those of us who actually understand the event revere him for being the first person to fly solo from New York to Paris.

It's like the whole Columbus thing. I'm sure there are many who think Chris was the first guy "to sail across the Atlantic," but be serious, Irishmen and Norsemen certainly did it long before he did.

Give Lindbergh his due, serial philanderer that he was...

[Rengineer]

It must've been that frequent travelling, stepwilk... ;)

[Lancman]

Sammy Davis jr. was actually the first, using the pseudonym All-Cock and Brown.