Chartered Engineer in the Military

[dirty_bugger]

I'm an AEO in the RN and have coughed up enough cash over the last 10 years of being Chartered.

Next years fees are £202 for membership of the RAeS and then £31 for being chartered - can anyone tell me what the benefits are?

[Pontius Navigator]

dirty_bugger,

1. Tax relief.

2. Service subsidy for membership.

Don't tell me you didn't apply for anything towards you membership? Certainly civil servant can. Anything you put out of your own pocket is tax deductible too :}

[Mr C Hinecap]

Payment or reimbursement of subscriptions to professional or civilian organisations from public funds is no longer permitted. Service personnel who are members of professional bodies/civilian institutes may be entitled to claim tax relief for their annual subscriptions/fees where these are approved by HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC). Please refer to the HMRC website Section 201 ICTA 1988 for further guidance.

JSP 752, Ch 10, Sec 9.

DE&S has raised this subject and, subject to authorisation, will pay in line with the following:

Military personnel in DE&S may claim for refund of PBF where:

a. The individual is in a recognised professional post (TOR/Job Specification annotated accordingly as an essential requirement) as designated by the OC Director. That is, without Professional Body membership, the incumbent cannot professionally and safely undertake his/her role, as their output must be ‘signed off’ by a specifically empowered/qualified individual.

b. The OC Budget Manger confirms there is funding available and personally authorises the submission for payment


(I had the letter open when I clicked on to PPRuNe :8)

[dirty_bugger]

thanks for the reply, but......

Tax relief is not a benefit of membership, it justs means you play [slightly] less!.

There is no subsidy - I don't work for DE&S.

There must be at least one benefit - Answers on a postcard......

[ZH875]

You get to call yourself a Chartered Engineer rather than just plain old AEO.:E

[minigundiplomat]

Can you not use SLC's towards these fees? Won't pay all of it, but it will pay £175.

[Pontius Navigator]

OK, benefits.

You are a member of a learned body and your views should therefore carry more authority.

You should have access to private pubications that will improve your general knowledge and hence your status.

It should help you network and meet similarly qualified individuals,

etc etc

[DeskBoundPhlasher]

Keep up peeps - see MAA/RI/DTECH/01/10 – PROFESSIONAL REGISTRATION OF ENGINEERS IN AIRWORTHINESS POSTS on the MAA site on intranet - its going to be needed for any SO1 post that has Airworthiness responsibilities - IEng for such SO2 posts :8

[alfred_the_great]

Does this mean that anyone appointed to a MAA SO1 post will be made CEng by the service, or will they just expect us to achieve this in our own time, and thus reduce the potential pool of applicants?

[blagger]

Of course the MAA has now mandated CEng or IEng for many eng posts wef from Sep 11, which included Level J and K holders (i.e. SEngOs and OC FSWs) so will the RAF pay fees for people in those posts??!!

[helimarshaller]

I think that you will find that as a result of the Haddon-Cave inquiry into the Nimrod crash in AFG, the need to hold a professional status such as C Eng is becoming a key requirement for specific positions in the services.
There is currently a push within the RAF closely followed by the RN to get people registered as professional engineers.
It will soon be a case of 'if you want promotion you need to be registered'.
This requirement is now also spilling over into the UK Defence Industries.

[ACW418]

If you leave the service and still need to work for a living it will help in a big way to get a decent job. A lot of posts in the civvie world require C Eng. I guess you have to pay up and claim the tax relief!

ACW

[gijoe]

All 3 colours of uniform have generally got around it to date by saying something along the lines of 'you are encouraged to pursue progress to CEng, IEng etc' and, therefore, it was not a 'must' and they did not have to pay for it - to not have it and being a 'must' then you would not, perhaps, have been able to fulfill your role.

HC appears to have changed that. In reality CEng is not that hard to achieve and the professional bodies, as charities, will want your yearly subscriptions.

Is it wise for the afterlife?

Possibly, BS baffles brains etc. Some roles in civ div demand it in the same way they demand Prince 2 - no one uses Prince 2.

Can SLC be used for the subscription?

No - SLC can be used for the assessment phase but nothing else.

G:ok: CEng

[Mr C Hinecap]

Is it wise for the afterlife?

Possibly, BS baffles brains etc. Some roles in civ div demand it in the same way they demand Prince 2 - no one uses Prince 2.

It depends on the sort of decisions you are making. I know when making safety-related calls and anything else to change equipment use etc, professional accreditation is preferred and makes things easier.

Doctors and lawyers need that sort of membership - is it not just a sign of increasing professionalism and having something everyone understands?

[gijoe]

I don't disagree and there is a road of professional development to be followed to reach your destination but I can't help but feel it is sometimes overhyped.

G:ok:

[Red Line Entry]

I believe if you're already an MRAeS, then you can upgrade to FRAeS if you get promoted to gp capt.

[WPH]

Must admit, I don't really get this either. Recent enquiries seen to suggest that provided you've got an accredited degree and you meet the other criteria (BEng started before '99 or MEng after- these dates could be wrong?) you can get CEng status almost automatically on promotion to Sqn Ldr through the new fast track system. So how does paying the 200 notes a year to put CEng after your name make you a better/ more qualified Engineer? Also, there is no requirement from what I understand to do anything other than keep paying your 200 notes to retain your status. You could be stacking shelves at B&Q for the next 10yrs and still retain your status as a CEng but potentially be completely out of touch with engineering.

Bottom line: why does the RAF think it needs IEng/ CEng if these can be bought on promotion to the relevant rank anyway?

Happy to be corrected on any of the above!:O

[Mr C Hinecap]

why does the RAF think it needs IEng/ CEng if these can be bought on promotion to the relevant rank anyway?

The Armed Forces has always been very good at training people. What it wasn't good at for a long time was ensuring that training could be equated outside the RAF. Now most training is aligned to meet the criteria set by the relevant professional bodies (not just engineers), your rank is an accepted break point for a level of experience.

If you've never worked outside the RAF or in DE&S (in recent years), then you probably don't see the value. Or you are one of the aloof old guard for whom "Don't you know who I am?" suffices when your professional ability is remotely questioned.

[Army Mover]

My experience when I gained mine was that it is more about achieving a standard and having achieved it, undertaking personal development to ensure that you maintain that standard; if you like you grow with your chosen profession; that development can be costly and in my case I'm lucky that my employer chooses to support me.

As to what the benefits are; directly - I didn't get paid any more, I can't part seas or stop speeding locomotives with a single hand. It has helped me understand that while I almost always have an opinion, I don't really know everything and there is always a different and potentially more productive way of doing things. :uhoh:

[gijoe]

WPH,

I don't think it was ever quite as simple as 'get rank, get status' but it would probably have made the assessment easier as it would have been known what a JEngo, AEO, OLAE course would have involved and the path was there. there would have still been some sort of assessment and form filling.

Overall, I think the last 2 posts from Mr C and Army Mover sum it up nicely.

G :ok:

...Still CEng

[dirty_bugger]

All - I think that I sum it up by just saying that, while in the forces, its nice to be Chartered, but not essential. When I leave the Service, I can see lots of advantages (primarily - getting a job in the first place!)

There are MAA moves afoot (MAA/RI/DTECH/01/10) for level J/K to be C/IEng which will come in from Q3/4 2011 - although it says nothing about payment, and it does not help me pay my £233 in January!!!

I've also found out from the Engineering Council that you must be a member of an institution to be Chartered. And, if you let your membership lapse, then provided you reapply within 3 years you will be re-instated. After 3 years you have to go through the whole process again.

Anyway, thanks for the comments. Long live the revolution.

[collbar]

What use will any of these certificates be to any Engineering officer in the civil world of airworthiness!! Almost nothing if your staying in the aviation operating field. Eng officers posted to FSTA will have no Engineering or air worthiness authority on these aircraft due to thier lack of experience. Signing leave apps ...no probs!

Under EASA Pt 66 rules experience is what counts. Thats 5 years hands on even with a degree before such a licence is awarded. Perhaps MAA should look at practical knowledge, experience and academic achievement rather than academia alone!!:)

[dirty_bugger]

Collbar - you dont really have clue do you? You're certainly not an engineer. The point was in civy street having a CEng is very beneficial, less so in the Services.

[TomJoad]

Oh dear, how embarrassing, I feel for you collbar; you really don't know much about the requirement for CEng. :=

Sure there is an academic qualification bar but the significant requirement is experience (with defined level of responsibility and time) and demonstrable competency. Experience requirement with IMechE is such that anyone with less than 6 years qualifying experience is unlikely to be presented for or awarded CEng by the UK Engineering Council. As has been said by others: if you are in service then look upon CEng as a professional qualification, something of you that is apart from the RAF. For me I always had my sights on attaining CEng as part of the continuation of my experience within the profession. The need to join and take your part in the “public” body of professional engineering was an idea discussed and encouraged whilst at university.

And just to be clear, if your fees are not paid by the MoD then you certainly are able to offset them in your annual Tax return. :ok: CEng is certainly sought outside as a professional qualification, so play the long game and keep an eye to the future.