That first job up north

[mikewil]

Just looking for any comments people have on the conditions that newbies subject themselves to in the annual pilgrimage up north (Australia) in the search for their first job with a fresh CPL.

In my opinion, the circumstances which they find themselves in when searching for their first job are not far short of degrading. Other posters on this forum often offer advice to pack the car and head up north in the search for that first job, and work at a local service station or woolworths supermarket while frequently visiting the operators of clapped out and arguably unsafe Cessna 210s begging the chief pilots to let them fly them for less than a hungry jacks employee gets paid to flip burgers. Some end up being lucky enough to get a job after a month or two, so they can finally be treated like dirt and paid virtually nothing to fly an aircraft which should no longer be in service, while living in accommodation which is close to the worst living conditions you will find in Australia. Some even have stories about sleeping in the back of their car while up north.

I fail to understand how anyone can come back from this experience and justify it by saying “you will look back in this and appreciate them as the best experiences of your aviation career, where you made some of the best life long mates”. While you may make some life long friends and have pretty interesting stories to tell in years to come, that still doesn’t justify why the industry operates like this.

Flying is a skill which people spend many thousands of dollars on by the time they have their CPL, MECIR, ATPLs and whatever else they add to the list. Why is it that such skilled people are content with degrading themselves to the conditions that I have described earlier? Why is it that chief pilots in these charter companies don’t even have the decency to have a look at a resume or take a phone call from someone wanting a job? You actually need to be there begging for a job for months on end, to sometimes come home with nothing. This sounds like what happens on farming properties where unskilled workers go knocking on doors and beg farmers for some manual labour work on their farms.

In general pilots are respected as looked upon as highly as any other jobs out there…dentists, doctors, architects, psychologists, accountants…while people starting out in all these jobs have to start on lower wages than the seniors they still don’t have to live in a hovel in the middle of nowhere and beg for a job from someone that refuses to accept a resume or phone call.

Any thoughts on why aviation is the one industry where starting out in the profession is so degrading?

[The Green Goblin]

In my opinion, the circumstances which they find themselves in when searching for their first job are not far short of degrading.

What would you like? A red carpet?

Other posters on this forum often offer advice to pack the car and head up north in the search for that first job, and work at a local service station or woolworths supermarket

Yes, you need to earn money to fund your expedition. If you run out, you have to head home!

while frequently visiting the operators of clapped out and arguably unsafe Cessna 210s

I have never flown an aeroplane that I considered unsafe. They are all in the 'charter' category and are maintained to stricter conditions to what your 'airwork' flying school aeroplane is. They have not spent their life doing touch and go's, heavy landings, and incompetent (debatable) engine management. You will generally find they fly very nicely most of the time.

begging the chief pilots to let them fly them for less than a hungry jacks employee gets paid to flip burgers.

I have never begged, the ones that are desperate, and act it, generally don't get work.


Some end up being lucky enough to get a job after a month or two

Luck has nothing to do with it (most of the time). Dedication, patience and perseverance are the traits required to find employment.


so they can finally be treated like dirt and paid virtually nothing to fly an aircraft which should no longer be in service

Virtually nothing?, the single engine award is 38k or thereabouts. While you will never be rich, it's enough to pay the bills, have a few beers and put a little aside.


while living in accommodation which is close to the worst living conditions you will find in Australia.

You obviously have never visited a community. Life is all about choices my friend. If you want to be a Pilot, these are the hurdles you must jump through.

Some even have stories about sleeping in the back of their car while up north. Usually the preferred method to avoid paying for accommodation while you are seeking a job and travelling.

I fail to understand how anyone can come back from this experience and justify it by saying “you will look back in this and appreciate them as the best experiences of your aviation career, where you made some of the best life long mates”. While you may make some life long friends and have pretty interesting stories to tell in years to come, that still doesn’t justify why the industry operates like this.

The flying is unreal. That basically sums it up.

Flying is a skill which people spend many thousands of dollars on by the time they have their CPL, MECIR, ATPLs and whatever else they add to the list. Why is it that such skilled people are content with degrading themselves to the conditions that I have described earlier? Why is it that chief pilots in these charter companies don’t even have the decency to have a look at a resume or take a phone call from someone wanting a job? You actually need to be there begging for a job for months on end, to sometimes come home with nothing. This sounds like what happens on farming properties where unskilled workers go knocking on doors and beg farmers for some manual labour work on their farms.

Yes, you may have spent thousands of dollars, but as a basic CPL - you know F all and can't fly for ****. You will make a myriad of mistakes in your first 500 hours while you learn how to 'operate' as a Pilot, and some of these mistakes can be very expensive for your employer. The reason why many charter companies traditionally wanted over 500 hours was they hoped you had already made these expensive mistakes and someone else had already paid for you to learn!!!

In general pilots are respected as looked upon as highly as any other jobs out there…dentists, doctors, architects, psychologists, accountants…while people starting out in all these jobs have to start on lower wages than the seniors they still don’t have to live in a hovel in the middle of nowhere and beg for a job from someone that refuses to accept a resume or phone call.

Being a Pilot is a respected occupation, but it is a practical job. You signed on to become one and like it, or lump it, this is how it is.

Any thoughts on why aviation is the one industry where starting out in the profession is so degrading?

Because the industry is full of dreamers and churns out more Pilots than there are jobs. These Pilots believe they will be flying an Airliner and prancing through the nearest terminal with a cap. The reality is it may be a decade away and there aint no hat :ok:

[SPEEDI]

Agreeing with all of GGs statements, I do have to ad that the majority (the ones that will succeed in the industry) have taken the blinkers off and realize that they won't be heading straight into an airline position (for those that aspire to), and realize the hard yards they have to put in to get where they want to be.
To succeed in this industry you need to be motivated, and deal with up north, mediocre pay, substandard conditions, this only shows determination and makes you a better person for it.

[Xcel]

I dunno some other industries are just as bad...

Have a mate who is a barrister up north... Yeap those poor fellas sometimes have to do it just the same...

He owes $100k for a bond uni degree
spent 2 years as an intern earning $0 yeap no pay
then had the promise of minimum wage for 3 years as he learnt the ropes
turned it down on hearing a firm in Darwin may need someone so packed the car at a whim... Worked in woolworths to pay the rent cause the boss was on leave..

He is now up for becoming a partner

sounds pretty familiar to some of us... I'm sure he was thinking he would be straight out of uni as a judge or wearing a wig.

The reality however is we all need to crawl before we can run... We all need to earn our stripes... I would hardly call it degrading. If anything it humbles many and weeds out those who don't want it as bad as the rest.

Of course some operators are better than others but that is a different matter...

[Night Beetle]

So what is the point of your topic if you know it all.One needs to do their homework before shelling out the big bucks.It is an investment in your future,cause without training and education all you will ever do is stack shelves in the local supermarket.

Far too often all we can see is the end and not the journey.With age comes experience and knowledge and quite possibly regrets.
All part of the journey, so harden up or find another forum.

[mikewil]

appreciate the replies, what you have all said is true. this does appear to be a fact of life for the young guys aspiring to end up in an airline position.

my opinion is just that conditions are below what they should be. sure the award is $38,000 per year for a s/e aeroplane pilot, but that is for a full time position. most pilots in their first 'up north' job are being paid on a casual basis for the number of flying hours they do which ends up being well below the $38,000 p/a. and plenty of operators dont even pay the award.

and i appreciate that the harsh conditions weed out the guys who dont want to do the hard yards, but the yards are arguably harder than they should be. conditions are so bad because pilots are prepared to work for nothing to get their first 1000 flying hours. i really dont understand how it got to the point of having to actually head there to ask for a job.

in most other industries where you apply for a job far away from home, you will still need to make the treck to wherever that position is, but the employer will have contacted you in response to a resume. the fact that pilots have to move away from home to work at woolworths really shows how bad things are for low time pilots. you should be able to work at the woolworths in your home city and receive a call from an operator in kununurra to be invited up for an interview rather than moving up there hoping for a job which may never come...

[neville_nobody]

Aviation needs to be considered more like music, acting, painting etc.

Plenty of the Hollywood set have spent many years a broke actors working part time jobs to try and make it to the big time. Plenty of big name bands have spent years doing free/cheap gigs harassing club owners/promoters etc.

If you want a laid down career for you, go to uni get a commerce/economics degree and go work for a bank or insurance company. Not as exciting or interesting as flying but you will make more money, have a regular lifestyle, and have a nice little career path laid out for you, if that's what you prefer.

It is also worth pointing out that once some people get into an airline they start banging on about the 'hard yards' as self glorification, when in fact they weren't so bad after all. Have heard one guy tell me about the 'hard yards' when he never even left Melbourne for his whole career!!! Funny stuff.

[morno]

I found it quite embarrasing to be associated with Gen Y sometimes, :ugh:. It's not that friggin' hard sunshine. I found it quite easy to live a decent life on the $30,000 I got paid in my first job. Even as a casual, because you often had weeks where you earnt more than the full timers. You just had to save some of that for the weeks where you didn't earn more than them.

and plenty of operators dont even pay the award.

There's not many who don't anymore.

i really dont understand how it got to the point of having to actually head there to ask for a job

It's been like that for about the last 30 years. It's where the majority of GA work is, so why not go north? It's also the kind of profession where you don't know what you're getting employee wise, until they front up. Why risk that, when there's people there who you see face to face before you employ them?

It's not that hard of a road if you don't make it one. I loved my early GA days and don't regret one bit of them.

morno

[solowflyer]

There is something dodgy about this thread seeing as I responded to it last night as did others now all thoes replies have gone. Did somone say somthing you did not like to hear?

Mate surley your flying school told you all about how this industry works they are good at telling what it is really like to new students:ugh:.

As for degrading I guess I'm just not as precious as you 200hr wonder boys I loved my time up north and would still be there If I did not have a woman's shopping addiction to support.

I saw that Hungry Jacks where advertising for staff maybe that is more to your liking and less degrading and rewarding compaired to learning the ropes and climbing the ladder in the aviation industry.

Good luck mate you are going to need it:rolleyes:

[mikewil]

regarding the posts from last night, i have no idea what happened. the whole thread disappeared so i had to start a new one and retype it (notice how the opening post is different)...we dont all have a photographic memory.

the responses i am getting seem to be directed as if i am actually a pilot with a grudge against everyone moving north because i cant hack it. nowhere have i even said that i am a pilot.

this forum is from an observational point of view, not from the point of view of someone who cant hack the 'hard yards'

[Chadzat]

Its not just Australia either mate, if you want to be a pilot in Canada, then be prepared to do all manner of things before you even get the keys to a 206. Seen the show Ice Pilots? Those poor bastards have to go out and pre-warm aircraft in -40C. Id prefer sweating my box off in central australia and actually flying over that any day!

Its true, some of my best mates were first met during that 'first job'. Good times.....

[psycho joe]

Any thoughts on why aviation is the one industry where starting out in the profession is so degrading?


It all comes down to a total lack of union (federation) presence in GA.

And then when these young pilots finally get to an Airline the federation apologists have the gall to wonder why these pilots are all self centred non unionists. :rolleyes:

[solowflyer]

I really take offence to you saying woking in GA up north is degrading as I am sure most others who have done it would feel the same.

Have you noticed that most of the ones who slag off at everything on prune are either unemployed or disgruntled instrutors who have never done the pilgramage and the ones that tell the stories with a smile on there face are the ones that have been there done that? Its all part of the adventure just like fat chicks don't knock it till you tried it.

[desert goat]

in most other industries where you apply for a job far away from home, you will still need to make the treck to wherever that position is, but the employer will have contacted you in response to a resume.

Dunno about that- outside of aviation, I've sent an awful lot of resume's out for various positions, but the only time I ended up with a decent job out of it is when I rocked up and asked to have a chat with the boss. An emailed resume' is an easy thing to ignore, as it doesn't show a whole lot of initiative.
And anyway- hundreds of foreign backpackers make the trip up north each year just for fun, so whats the big deal about doing a trip up there looking for work?

[baron_beeza]

Heading north to find that first job!

I am just looking for the opinions of other pilots and enthusiasts regarding the treck up north (in Australia that is) which pilots make in annual pilgrimages on a yearly basis.

I think it is ridiculous that everyone on these forums seems to be content with the way things work in the general aviation world. Students spend tens of thousands of dollars and many hours of devoted time to getting their CPL, MECIR, ATPLs and so on only to have to make the 'degrading' treck up north to find their first job flying a clapped out and arguably unsafe cessna 210.

Many pilots come back and say that it was the 'best years' of their aviation careers, but I fail to understand where they can come up with such a ridiculous statement about what they have had to put themselves through.

For many, the treck up north involves working at a woolworths service station to make enough money to survive on while they frequently visit the operators of the clapped out cessnas begging for a first break into the world of commercial aviation which for some may never come even after many months of roughing it. For the ones who do score that first job, they are most often flying aircraft which are well past their used by dates and in shocking condition while getting payed less than a hungry jacks burger flipper while living in the poorest living conditions that Australia has to offer.

Many try to argue that loving flying is what it is all about and that they must realise that they are starting at the bottom of the ladder of success. Well this is the only industry where professionals which such skills must start in such degrading positions. Accountants who love what they do, certainly start in lower paid positions when they find their first job than more senior ones but they are still able to live in capital cities in living conditions which are better than third world, the same can be said for architects, doctors, psychologists, dentists, teachers, mechanics, electricians and the list goes on.

Starting out in aviation is certainly one of the most degrading experiences a pilot will have to encounter in their career. The employers of fresh CPLs don't even have the decency to accept a resume in the mail or a phone call from an applicant. One has to make a huge change from the comforts of a capital city to an almost third world way of living to so much as get a conversation from a chief pilot. I fail to understand why the industry operates like this and that newbies are content with subjecting themselves to it.

Any thoughts or comments?



To which I replied:

Yes I have. I am sure you won't want to hear them though.

Followed by a further reply;

More tissues anyone ?

[Stationair8]

Might be easier to stay home petal, you could get sunburnt up north or god forbid get a papercut.

Just stay at home and tell everyone that you have a cpl licence and are just waiting for Qantas to give you a direct entry command on the A380.

[mikewil]

im not saying that i pity anyone who moves up north as everyone here seems to think, the point i was trying to make is that it often seems to get people nowhere these days.

with most of the airlines offering cadetships, it takes away many opportunities which would be given to general aviation guys. airlines turn down guys from GA with 2000 total and over 500 multi in favour of someone with zero total and zero multi.

if there were no cadetships, the industry would indeed be much fairer. rather than being stuck in GA for 10 years watching cadets get your seat at the front of a turboprop or jet, you may only need to be there for 2 years before progressing into an airline.

i cant understand why an airline would rather have someone with zero experience than a pilot who has been out bush for even 6 months with 600 hours total and zero multi...

[osmosis]

I am fed up to the back teeth from reading posts by newbs on the first job market. Questions such as these posted on a professional forum such as this are deserving of the responses they get. It has been done to death many times over kiddies. No-one is disputing the first job is the hardest step of all but can't you people learn to farquing READ?...research?...do your homework? Aviation employment is dynamic but by and large it is the same as it was when prior generations went through. Read. Learn. In silence.

[morno]

mikewil,
Not everyone wants to go to airlines either. So the job up north is even more important.

morno

[Mr. Hat]

Most have covered my thoughts but I must reiterate that you must never do this:

begging the chief pilots to let them fly them

Others during my era bought beers/sucked up. Absolutely under no circumstances is there a need to beg or suck up. Present yourself in remote areas as a professional, looking and capable of hard work and you will succeed.

[Trojan1981]

The fact is a new pilot doesn't have to fly crap aircraft, put up with shonky bosses and earn peanuts. If you don't like a job or operator then don't apply. My first aviation job was flying brand new aircraft and payed above award. It also happened to have generous conditions and decent management. I knew where I wanted to work and at the time It was the first and only flying job I had applied for.
I had a well paying job and wasn't going to leave it for just any old operator. I was told I would be exploited etc. But it hasn't happened yet, and if it ever came to that I would seek work in another industry. It works both ways. Make your own informed decisions, don't let others dictate them for you.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Mike it really sounds like you have zero experience in the real world, let alone aviation.

I'm not going to address the moving up north portion because people a lot more qualified to respond to this have already done so.

There are very few jobs out there, professional or otherwise, that do not require hard work (if you want to move up) and sacrifice, on very mediocre salaries.

Your perspective seems to be of a typical gen-Y, still firmly attached to mummies teet, brat who thinks the world is really as they see it while mooching off mum and dad in your city or suburban home.

How about we change scenario (read: perspective) a little.
Take someone who has grown up in the country, they love the country and couldn't think of anything more vile than living in an unfriendly, anonymous, grey concrete jungle; But they have a driving passion for computers, they know the job opportunities for IT just aren't there where they live, let alone educational institutes that can train them in the subject to a level that would make them employable.

Well, that gives them two choices.
1. move to somewhere that will offer the training and some job opportunities
2. do something they don't really want to do, nor have the passion for, for the rest of their life and always have that burning desire to do what makes them happy.

So the person decides to take the plunge, moves to a capital city, spends 4 years earning a degree and then walks out with a massive HECS debt and a bit of paper that qualifies them for nothing more than a minimum wage graduates position, where they are no more than a dogs body for the first year or two until they truly prove themselves. A job that all the other graduates from his course and other courses like it are vying for.

All of this could be likened to what pilots do, aviation is not an exception to the rule here. It may be "degrading", it may be hard, but the people that have gone through it and have come out the other end are all the better for it.

Now as for you, take it, leave it, I don't care, but if you decide to go for it, get ready to take a cup of concrete and HTFU princess, because this is the real world!

[mikewil]

you seem to have misread what I have written. My point was that the guys with the 2000 hours and a stack of multi time are being IGNORED by the airlines in favour of kids fresh out of high school with no flying experience at all.

I know a few from GA with over 3000 hours and 1000 hours multi and airlines havent given them a look. i know a couple who have been given cadetships (by rex and qlink) who of course had no or very minimal experience.

i am questioning whether GA is really the way to go given the fact that there are countless guys from GA with mountans of experience that the airlines dont seem to want and guys with absolutely nothing that the airlines accept and train from scratch...

[Xcel]

"stack of multi" well then best be handing u the keys to the millenium falcon...

I knocked in a "stack" of nails on the weekend - does that make me a carpenter?
What about the guy from school who never lifted a hammer in his life but has just signed up to a 4 year apprenticeship in carpentry?

I wrote a whole lot more only to delete it cause I'm sure ur fishing and I cbf trying to make my stupid analogy make sense... Besides noone is this naive... Go north have fun become a true territorian or whatever... Just don't forget the grey cardboard...

[mikewil]

stack of multi = 500+ hours.

so im guessing you are favouring airline cadetships which dont require ANY multi....?

and what do you mean grey cardboard? i dont follow...

[Night Beetle]

Lets not encourage this as it is going no-where,just another fishing story for someone.

[archangel7]

Going up nth is a way to make you a man to grow up anddevelop your character, flying skills etc... end of story.

[archangel7]

you seem to have misread what I have written. My point was that the guys with the 2000 hours and a stack of multi time are being IGNORED by the airlines in favour of kids fresh out of high school with no flying experience at all.

Like who? i think your confusing cadetships with direct entry lolll:ugh:

You sound like a concerned parent not a wannabe pilot. :ouch:

[Cessna 180]

Am wondering why so many people refer to "Up North" etc as "the Middle of No where" etc
Kununurra, Broome, Jabiru and and most smaller towns you care to name all have post office, pubs, restaurants, supermarkets and sports clubs and the like.
They even have an art gallery or two!

What is the big deal about where one lives? Surely it is the people around you that make life interesting.

Most times one meets folks through their work anyway, so wouldn't have though it really matters where an individual resides.

[baron_beeza]

Remember that other than post war, until 2007 there hadn't been a time when pilots got into an airline with less than 5000hours.

I may not be the best to comment here as I have never flown for a real airline. Many of my peers, and indeed some bosses have told me their backgrounds though.

A few stick in my mind, none more so that the guy taking an offer from a major airline... it was conditional though. Subject to his passing a CPL.
This would have been in the '70s, he is still there and captaining large airliners.
My understanding was that there was a least one glitch, missing out on the CPL flight test. ooopps.

I can also remember the crazy period of 1986 to 1989 when expansion was in full swing. Some of the guys of that era will have huge smiles on their faces when they trot out their experiences.

I have a feeling we may be hearing some here soon.

[qldsharpie]

Hey mate, I agree with most of the comments people have said so far. Just a quick word of advice - if up north isn't that attractive for you, travel somewhere else.. My first job was in central queensland, and my second job was spotting whalesharks/shagging backpackers in Western Australia. Both for questionable pay, but awesome fun. Australia is a big place. Btw, I am working flying 310's in NT and have loved every minute of it. Peace :)

[SgtBundy]

my second job was spotting whalesharks/shagging backpackers in Western Australia. Both for questionable pay

Out of interest, how much did the second part of that job pay, and what were the conditions? :}

[morno]

I reckon he probably had his fair share of shagging backpackers that looked like whale sharks too, :E

[qldsharpie]

When I said it was questionable, I just meant it wasn't a large amount of money. Wouldn't have kept working there if the pay was below board/dodgy.

Out of interest, how much did the second part of that job pay, and what were the conditions? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

It's all changed now, but the conditions were good and the pay varied depending on how busy we were.

I reckon he probably had his fair share of shagging backpackers that looked like whale sharks too, http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Any port in a storm I always say..

[Bounceferret]

It's not what you know it's who you meet.

Become likable, remain respectful (which some time means putting up with the crap shoved down your throat)
I'm about to be in the same boat as most people battling the NT looking for work so can hardly give advice in regards to aviation... but I'm slightly older then most kids looking for their 1st flying job and have had plenty of exp working bloody hard for next to nothing.
Slow down, be persistant, don't be afraid of rejection, make yourself known in the community your looking to work in (small things like go running at 7am in the morning near the operatator... you might get noticed, first impressions .....etc )

If your sensitive to living conditions or low pay or grumpy CP's... join the army, learn to take crap, sense or urgency.... all that stuff.

It usually helps if your training is self funded.... something changes in a person when he/she has spent years working 2 jobs to pay for their flying.... if at the very least you know how to live on $15 a day

[Turban]

at the very least you know how to live on $15 a day


I'm the world champ' :E

And looks like it's finally gonna pay off :}

yey :D

I don't know about you guys but being a young man it sounds to me like the great adventure I'm looking for.

It's gotta be so more fun than flying for an airline ! :ok:

I know some people would say it's bad for pilot's futur to take a badly paid job; and I would agree with them, but I wouldn't mind spending my time cleaning planes, taking care of things plus flying and not being paid a lot.

When I was younger I use to sleep on my aeroclub's couch,cleaning planes,answering the phone...for free of course...and it felt great.

I know one day I might have to change my mind but right now I'm just in because I love aviation.

And I know it's gonna be tough.But...looking for a pilot's job in Northern Australia...damn... I had worst :E.. And if I get one of those job....men...
I'm gonna be so happy :)

And somehow it's good that people can hire someone without many rules.
Because if there are to many rules, they just don't hire.

In some country you can't even run a buziness like those in the NT.
So if you wanna be a pilot there is only one way. Witch is having a CPL/IR/ME/ATPL. And when you are self funded (:\), it's... very difficult.

Anyway... I just wanted to say, that sometime soon I might be heading North too, and personnaly, I'm really looking forward to it.

Just to add something positive in this thread.

Cheers everyone :)

[Brian Abraham]

It usually helps if your training is self funded.... something changes in a person when he/she has spent years working 2 jobs to pay for their flyingKudos to those who do so, I was one. But on the other hand I know of parents who have sacrificed a lot so that their progeny may advance in their chosen professions, Stoner of GP fame, and Bright of V8 fame, just to name two. Don't knock ALL of those whose parents may very well have sacrificed so that their sons/daughters may achieve their dreams.

[morno]

Turban, that's got to be one of the worst wind-up posts I've ever read.

Nice try though.

morno

[Bounceferret]

Brian Abraham
agreeed mate, completely...... nothing wrong with those who have a bit of help from the olds.
There just seems to be a few among the many who expect everything on a golden platter, yesterday.
Some of these people might find it difficult to get that initial job.

Though there have been tales told of dad being a training captain with an airline who might be able to put in a good word for that CP who is looking at possible career advance....

but in the end what ever works really...

[psycho joe]

I've never understood why it is that the colloquialism 'up North' seems to end at the Australian coastline. Northern Australia has been done to death. It's fine for a holiday but terribly lacking in imagination and initiative.

Why not go waaay up North.

Go to places where the only maps that you can find were printed before you were born and still have large blank sections that say "Terrain relief unknown", where local knowledge can't be found in a book but will keep you alive, where an English speaking white man is still a curiosity, where the living is primitive, where flying is still dangerous and where the scenery and the weather defies imagination.

Such places do still exist, though the world is rapidly shrinking.

A CPL is a ticket to adventure. Just be prepared for no one in isolationist Australia to believe your stories. You can also expect scenario based airline interviewers to look like this. :eek::uhoh::eek::ooh::eek:

[Turban]

Well first of all I said I "might" and I emphasise "might" go up North.

Time will tell, but, come on guys, it's a beautifull place, you can't deny it.

Is that so foolish to think than one might prefer flying 206 over there than

flight and auto-piloted plane in some other place?

I know how I sounded :}

at the bright eyed and bushy tailed attitude of the last post...


(Nice picture by the way) :p , but I was just speaking my mind, it's an internet forum for christ sake not an interview ;)

I'm sorry but yes, I love aviation. Don't you ? :confused:

Baah..doesn't matter anyway huh ?

Cheers and see you around ;)

Ps: Morno... sorry pal, I reeaaally didn't try to wind-up anything.
Was reading this thread and thought I'd say what I had to say.
Done ;)

Cheers to you too ;)

[morno]

Turban,

I know some people would say it's bad for pilot's futur to take a badly paid job; and I would agree with them, but I wouldn't mind spending my time cleaning planes, taking care of things plus flying and not being paid a lot

You need to get rid of that attitude real fast. DO NOT work for free. Otherwise you're simply becoming the scum which is ruining this industry.

morno

[Turban]

I'm sorry you got that of what I wrote.

Of course I would not work for free, my point was I'm not looking for a
brand new shiny jet plane, someone to clean my shoes and a big salary on top of it :)

You're right, and I said I'd agree with people saying what you just said :)

It's in the quote :)


Cheers

[Hasselhof]

Hold up a minute. Working cheapily and for free are two very different matters. Remember many of the people that join Aviation don't give two squats about the money involved. It is the love of flying that people should be doing it for. It's the scum that only become a pilot for the luxuries of money, a fast car and a massive house, that are ruining the industry.

If you work for less than award, then it isn't any different at all. I'll be the first to admit that the GA pilots award is a pittance compared to what it SHOULD be, but if you're working for less than that you're dudding everyone else in the industry that follows in your footsteps, as well as yourself.

"Love" for aviation doesn't put food in your mouth, a roof over your head, a shirt on your back and it certainly doesn't keep you warm at night. Don't forget that.

[Fat_Bulldog]

DominicYPGV
It's the scum that only become a pilot for the luxuries of money, a fast car and a massive house, that are ruining the industry. Not the people that have a general love for what they do.

That so called 'scum' in your words are the only ones keeping this industry up. It's people like you the reason management of airlines such as jetstar are bringing out these cadetships paying cadets a wage that you can basically pay rent, keep your car running, and buy food for the week. Goodluck raising a family/buying a house. They know there are school kids out there who have no idea and will sign up for something like this because 'they have a general love for aviation.' Once you have been in the industry for a while you will realise not everything is about flying, and that there is more to life outside of aviation which requires money!

[The Green Goblin]

It is the love of flying that people should be doing it for. It's the scum that only become a pilot for the luxuries of money, a fast car and a massive house, that are ruining the industry. Not the people that have a general love for what they do.

19 and an expert. I'd go as far as saying you have not earnt a dollar from flying yet.

In 10 years time after you have been working for a while, your mates have houses and nice cars and you're still driving an 84' pulsar hatch living in shared accommodation you'll change your tune. The terms and conditions in an Airline used to be worth it, now you can barely support a wife and kids AND pay a mortgage with an FO wage in Australia. As an FO you will also barely see your wife and kids as the airlines now work you to max hours, back of the clock with minimum rest.

It's okay though, because the general love of what I do makes it alllllll okay.

Living the dream!!!

[Cutter796]

DominicYPGV,

mate, you CANNOT be serious! Love always turns into reality, just takes longer for some to see it. Time for you to leave home and see the big picture. On a happy note, J* have noted your IP address and will be calling you quite soon....good luck

[Turban]

Thanks for the support Dominic ;)

It's seems like there's been a misunderstanding.

I'll try to say what I said in another way.
I know some guys who went to cadetship, without having ever fly a plane before. And they just thought..."why not being an Airline Pilot. Sounds fancy" :E. And there they are.And that is a fact.

Or some other who went all the way by themselves.CPL IR ME ATPL ... now waiting for an airline job. They would consider nothing else.

And the one who would, they'd never, ever, even think about...I don't know, washing a plane for example... :}

One of those (was a girl actually)...when I asked her to give a hand to some fellow pilots washing a Cessna 150 by a great summer afternoon, she answered something like (she was speaking french)..."**** no!....that's no Ferrari here..." :ugh: And that's a fact too.

I had 4 particular friends, and out of 5, I was the only one who loved GA. The others would consider it as a necessary evil and loss of time.

Took me some time to get them to see the beauty of it.

But in the end they keep joking at me because I don't plan on having an ATPL.

And in a way I consider that they are guilty too. When pilots start loosing
the real feel for aviation, that's no wonder if Airline's management start loosing it too.

Having a plutocratic management, you'll get plutocratic pilots.
And it works the other way around too.

And that's a down spin I'm not willing to take.

Just give me a nice little plane, with nice surrounding peoples in a nice place, with some nice pubs all around, and I'll be fine.
:p

Hope I made my point clearer this time :}.I'm not saying I'll work for free or with Chinese rated wages.I'm just happy to see a place where aviation ain't completely asepticized yet.


Cheers everyone

[training wheels]

Hope I made my point clearer this time :}.I'm not saying I'll work for free or with Chinese rated wages.

Cheers everyone

Mate, you don't know what you're talking about. Some of my expat mates working in China are earning pretty good money.

[Turban]

Oh come on !

You're playing with the words mate. I do know you can get good money working in China, that was just a figure of speech.;) What would you have me say? Indonesians rates? Africans? Anything you want as long as you get my point.

I've been on my own for a while now, I even run my own bizness (not in aviation of course :p), I know I'd make better money out of an another job than flying but...

Well, right now, money is just not everything to me.

And you should be thankfull for that, because if it was, I would have been to College, and would have join the Qantas management team and I would have k*c* your grown-up a**

:p:}:p:}:p:}:p:}

Come on guys, cheer up.

Better try to live a dream against all odds than just let the odds get you down.
Otherwise we are all already dead waiting for old age to come, and I don't see the fun it that.

And maybe we ,all of us, as pilots, could get things better instead of just peaking at each other right?

Cheers, and promise, if I meet some of you guys up there, the first round'll be on me.

Now that's gotta to cheer you up :p:p

[Turban]

And you commentary is one corker of a revelation. :E

Thanks for sharing, you blow my mind.

Now why don't you just let us kids wind-up all we want huh?

If this thread ain't good enought for you then just don't come down here ;)

If you're sad about something, that's sad, but that cynical attitude won't get you nowhere.:cool:

[psycho joe]

Must be a French thing ? :D

[Dougie Buckets]

7 years on, what are you doing with yourself now Turban? You get that fancy 210 yet?
Dougie