Cadetships/do I really have to go north/am I too old or I have kids etc threads

[VH-FTS]

A lengthy title, but some of my 'favourite' topics that seem to come up regularly. Before you hit the submit button to post such a topic, I suggest you have a long think about it yourself and consider whether Pprune is the place to post.

Most of the people who post such questions seem to have either money or some sort of age/family issue to contend with. You are posting in a desperate attempt to find some sort of justification for your life decision. Instead of posting the question on pprune, how about speaking to people at your local aero club/airfield, fellow students, former students, or god forbid - speak to your wife about the pros and cons about your potential aviation career. Pprune is far from the most reliable source of information.

What particularly irks me is the 'should I go for <insert name> cadetship'? Like you have any choice son! The chances of you getting into said cadetship are so small that you shouldn't be basing your life around such a move in advance. How about apply for any cadetships that seem remotely suitable for you and if you get the nod then make your final decision. You can always say 'no' if it ends up not being right for you - they'll always have someone else on the list to pick.

Do I really have to go north? Unless you like teaching and want to become an instructor (which will take you around 3-5 years longer than charter to get to the next stage), or you win the lotto that is the Jet* cadetship, then the answer is YES! Sorry, but there are no capital city jobs for newbies - any that do exist have been snapped up by those with considerably more experience. Throwing people out of planes isn't a long-term career and I've never heard of anyone who has gone straight from 182 meat bombing to a Q400. So pack your bags, fill the car up and hit the road NOW! If you don't know when the dry season is up north you better look up Wikipedia before you ask an experienced pilot that question, particularly a chief pilot.

And guess what? Don't complete your CPL and wait for Qantaslink to ring you offering a place as a trainee - it isn't going to happen. I know of at least 6 pilots with this attitude, and three years since the traineeship began they are still waiting for that phone call. Sorry, QLink isn't going to call you. They don't care that you've just passed your MECIR as well and now have 101 hours PIC - they are going to pick the many many pilots with upwards of 1500 hours that have also applied. Or even the backlog of Qantas cadets who were shafted a couple of years ago and had to fight for themselves to get jobs.

Last but not least - am I too old/I have kids/wife etc etc? I'm sorry, you've made a life choice that has potentially ended your aviation dreams. If you cannot live on a minimal wage for a long period of time, most likely in a remote location, then aviation isn't for you. Even the Jet* cadetship isn't for anyone with multiple kids and a mortgage unless you wife is earning top dollar as an executive.

There are exceptions to some of the above, but they are rare. If you really want to take that next step I offer the following advice:

Log out and do not log back in to pprune until you've kick-started your career. There are too many jaded people, some with hidden agendas, who will get you down.
Do the research and examine all of the pros and cons before you spend any more money. If it seems hopeless for you, it probably is.
Speak to your financial backer or significant other about what is going to happen over the next 10 years. You may have to shift your goals to achieve what you want in aviation and real life.Aviation is an amazing career, but a tough nut to crack.

[Mr. Hat]

Great post.

Another good one is "I'm thinking of going to uni to do a Bachelor of Aviation will this give me a better chance at an airline job?"

Answer: NO.

[JohnnyK]

Above all, listen very closely to unsolicited advice from grumpy strangers posting anonymously on forums and do exactly as they say.

[plane_driva]

hahahaha - agree totally. Not sure what a forum is for if not to ask questions to a group of people who should be willing to pass on advice, knowledge etc.

How different is posting on a forum compared to 'posting' your question at the local aero club ?

**donning flame protection hat now**

[j3pipercub]

planedriva

Come back when you have a job...flamed enough? And your post wasn't productive so neither is mine.

Johnny K,

Yep, don't listen to the grumpy ones, just the ones that tell you what you want to hear, cos that will work a treat...

VH-FTS

Good one! :ok: So sick of these 'poor bugger me' what should I do, too old, have kids. If you want it, go for it. I left a good job and a good girl to get where I am today and I wouldn't change a thing.

j3

[j3pipercub]

It's just not worth replying, it really isn't. After a bit, you just get sick of the stitches in your forehead from the brickwall.

j3

[VH-XXX]

FTS your post is naive at best and is YOUR opinion of what YOU think happens in the world.

Can you provide your summary of experience and career progression for us so we can determine if you are also not just jaided from not getting a Jet gig?

I know two guys that fly Learjets and Citations that had basic CPL's and a couple of hundred Tiger Moth hours, where do they fit into your grand opinion on life the way you see it?

Please explain.

[solowflyer]

I quite like reading these threads there is always some entertainment from some 18year old expert.

[dreamer84]

I guess there's always the option of not reading a thread that you have no interest in or are so sick of.

[archangel7]

last night I went to visit a kid because they wanted advice on career paths their son wants to be a pilot.. so I thought ill do it as a favour to a friend...I went out of my way.... anyway, I was triyng to explain to the mum/dad that his kid wont be better off doing a uni course in aviation to get into an airline... The look on their face was just too funny.. As soon as they heard the words, Up North,Flying Abo's, Bush, Middle of no where.. they honestly thought I was crazy!!!! THEY THREW ME OUT OF THEIR HOUSE!!!


I blame it on the flying schools though... they do a bad job preparing kids for the "REAL GA"

[A37575]

The look on their face was just too funny.. As soon as they heard the words, Up North,Flying Abo's, Bush, Middle of no where.. they honestly thought I was crazy!!!! THEY THREW ME OUT OF THEIR HOUSE!!!

Amazing coincidence. I was given the open-mouthed aghast look when I recommended their darling son apply to join the RAAF if he wanted to fly.

[tail wheel]

One of the issues Mods have with flying training threads is that the decision on a flying school, first job, career path etc is so personal to the person involved and their peculiar circumstances, that most advice given is irrelevant.

On the question of suitable flying schools, many of the opposing responses are from disaffected ex students that didn't cut the mustard; and many "recommendations" are subtle adverts from other flying schools or flying instructors looking for students. (One flying training establishment had over 30 PPRuNe "identities" to respond with "favourable comment" about their service in "what flying school" threads!)

There is still only one way to select the flying school that suits you: go visit, talk to the CFI, instructors and current students, obtain written prices - and make your own decision based upon your personal circumstances.

And .... your first job is in a remote location, flying tired singles, on low pay, with crappy accommodation - but only if you are there and very lucky. There is no first flying jobs in Brisbane, Sydney or Melbourne, flying new singles and ME aircraft on over Award wages.

I am just wondering how was the job market in Aus., specially for flight instructors or other low houred jobs?

Are there some better opportunities than in north america, or is it as congested?

Thanks

I would be amazed if any low hour instructor could give an accurate and constructive assessment of the instructor job opportunities in Australia, versus North America.
:ugh: :ugh:

[patienceboy]

My .02...

If every thread or post (or poster) which offended or agitated someone in some way was deleted, there would be no pprune. The mods do a pretty good job of keeping it relevant considering that anyone in the world with a computer can sign up and post. Some advice is gold and some is rubbish (possibly including my own), but any half intelligent adult should be capable of deciding what applies to them.

If you really want to improve the quality of your time on pprune, you would have more of an issue with thread titles than content. In my opinion, threads named “Would this work?” or “How True” or “Definitely worth the time” are the time wasters. A thread titled “Airline Cadetship vs Traditional Methods” is not of concern to me as I can instantly tell what it will be about and decide whether I want to spend any time reading it.

[VH-FTS]

XXX,

4500 TT with a wide variety of background from SE pistons to turbines. Sorry mate, I'm not jaded from missing out on that dream gig. I know I'm not the most experienced person getting around but I do know what I'm talking about. I had to give up a number of personal and career goals to make everything 'work' - it frustrates me when people post expecting to have it all.

I'm sure everyone would love to hear about your buddies who went from flying tiger moths to bizjets - can you run us through how it happened? It would be the exception rather than the rule though.

My post did not cover every possible option for 'getting there', whatever 'there' means for an individual. It was more about manning up and just accepting your situation and making some tough decisions in life.

I remember being in a room of 30 newbie pilots many years ago receiving a presentation from an experienced pilot. He asked how many of us wanted to be airline pilots and we all put our hands up. He then ran through his belief about how many would make it - his words many of us didn't believe at the time.

Around 50% of us finished our CPLs. Of that only about half actually were able to get that first job. Three are flying for airlines, the four others turboprops. I'm imagine the strike rate would be very similar across the country, if not worse.

So throw your stones at me - I'm entitled to an opinion. I'm sure many of your 2000+ posts have been naive at best at well.

[Jabawocky]

On the question of suitable flying schools, many of the opposing responses are from disaffected ex students that didn't cut the mustard; and many "recommendations" are subtle adverts from other flying schools or flying instructors looking for students. (One flying training establishment had over 30 PPRuNe "identities" to respond with "favourable comment" about their service in "what flying school" threads!)

Now thats a crack up!

Hey Taillie, let me guess that it was from a place up north, lets say with an RAAF tower, and a crazy Dr with a V35B.?

Must be the land for multi personality disorders :E



No Jabba.

The identities all led back to a training organisation in Victoria associated with the aviation industry, whose principal has less than a favourable reputation in the industry.

More than one "what flying school" or "is XYZ flying school any good" type threads, even in recent times, has been started by an unethical flying school owner or instructor purporting to be a spotty faced hopeful, who then changes identity a few times to post favourable comments about their school, or post derogatory comments about their competitor's school.

Why do some people think Mods can't see user IP addresses and search the databse for user names and IP address comparisons? :ugh: :ugh:

This type of scam is time consuming on the limited time Mods have available and misleading to our PPRuNe users.

And that is even more reason for Mods to close threads of this nature. :=

Tail Wheel

[VH-XXX]

So throw your stones at me - I'm entitled to an opinion. I'm sure many of your 2000+ posts have been naive at best at well.

You are entitled to your opinion, sure, but be careful not to pidgeon-hole other people based on your experience because the reality is that there are good jobs out there, there are good operators that pay above the award and there are good-news stories of plenty of pilots that get good jobs without heading north and living in an Aborignal village or on a station. For those that do head north or outback, many manage to succesfully take their families along and have an entrirely livable arrangement with great success.

For those that are out there, there are always smarter people that do things better, that's just reality and you need to arm yourself with the knowledge and skills to be the smarter one. That is the key to success, not necessarily dropping everything and moving north.

I've watched a fair number of pilots go from CPL to airlines and none of them have been up north; it's not the mandatory progression and it would be narrow minded to think so.

I won't go into detail about the career of the Tiger Moth pilots before speaking to them, other than to say that they were very smart and used their intellect, plus they worked hard, talked to the right people and made the right choices.

[VH-XXX]

Must be the land for multi personality disorders http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

There are a few of those in the industry Jabba, particularly in the area of lighter aircraft that on here and those that try to play in forums as well :{

[neville_nobody]

there are good-news stories of plenty of pilots that get good jobs without heading north and living in an Aboriginal village or on a station.

I would suggest that you are slightly misrepresenting the situation. What you are talking about is a low percentage play. In my experience most people who have been through GA and never left home have been one of three things


They had good luck and things just fell into place for them and they never left home
They had some sort of inside running like family connections etc

They bought or slept their way through the industry or they worked for free



To put an expectation out there that it you can go through GA without leaving home is pretty unrealistic and as I said a low percentage play. Sure some people do manage to spend their whole career in Sydney or Melbourne but that isn't the norm. I would hazard a guess that there would be not to many guys flying Tiger Moths who get walkup jobs with a Learjet operator. I would be putting an expectation on EVERY new pilot that he has to go out in the country somewhere as that is what the majority do.

PS Aboriginal villages as you put it are call communities.

[VH-FTS]

XXX, your advice is generally good on this forum and I couldn't agree more with your latest post. The problem is a lot of people don't think 'smart' and think they can get a job by sitting at their computer sending emails to CPs and asking for advice on pprune. They then eventually give in to it all because they are either too scared of the reality of the fight ahead or they don't want to lose their sales job that brings in $90K a year and they want to keep the BMW.

Away from pprune, a real life example of why this topic frustrates me is the following. About 18 months ago I put a fresh 200 hour pilot in touch with a cattle station manager who was looking for a 206 driver. Sure, there was probably only about 10 hours a week flying - but it was a start when no one was hiring. This particular fellow got the job, then rejected it because it was all too hard. Guess where they are now? Still working at Woolworths waiting for their number to come up in a cadetship. Then I recently see him posting on pprune asking for career advice...:ugh:.

The problem is some people won't listen to the advice given to them and you see this attitude time and time again on pprune. Another favourite is starting a new thread and saying something like "I know there is a thread running but I don't have time to read through all of the pages".

I'm not entering the 'which career path is right for aviation' debate - that's not the point of this thread. There are a lot of success stories in this game but a lot of failures. You can tell from recent threads who the failures in aviation are going to be.

Even if one pilot wakes up to him/herself because of what they have read through the numerous posts above I'll be happy.

[Jabawocky]

I have been corrected then......On two counts!

The school was in Victoria and well..........The Dr......Intellectual heavy weight Dr with a V35B ?

J:E

PS Name and Shame TW...go on you know you want to, besides it takes time away from repairing...ooops:oh: I mean restoring those fine British Automobiles!:}

[Homesick-Angel]

FTS..
Why are you trying to give pointers to the people that give up or give in?..Its the natural leveller in Aviation that if you aren't driven, willing to miss out on a lot of things that matter to others, and be able to live on a paupers wage for a reasonable period of time you'll throw your hands up, blame everyone else and walk away.

Unless your parents are loaded, or you won Tatts then just to get a CPL is a bloody good effort.

So far in my very limited experience Ive seen people blaming everyone else for their problems , but you only need to spend halfnour chatting to them to see that they are unable to accept that they are the problem.

Its them thats not doing the work.Its them thats not able to do basic research, and its them that will crack it when their not given a job that is far beyond their experience level with a fresh stamped license.

Dont give the quitters any more reasons or ideas on how to continue as it may just prolong their eventual defeat.:E

[Dangnammit]

Damn. All those years of hard work wasted....

All my money, nearly 20 exams, and the rest of it, then walk away.
Persevere and ye shall prosper..

Don't tell the wife where my Ctrl, Alt, Delete buttons are to reset my brain :uhoh:

[GADRIVR]

Interesting thread...but based on one individuals viewpoint and goal. Aviation isn't just a big shiny jet. Plenty of other options out there I'd hazard the suggestion.
I'd hire a family dude or dudette over a young single tyro any day given the choice...and have. Plenty of my instructor mates (if not all) never left the city, never flew charter, and ended up in airlines....usually over appx 3-5 years as an average.
Big shiny jets may be fun, but at the end of the day it comes back to Ts & Cs... and they aren't looking flash at this moment across the board unless you jag a gig at the Rat, for the time being anyway.
The ones who fell along the wayside figures would be correct however.
Just a viewpoint.
:ok:

[The Bunglerat]

Generally good post FTS, and in principle I agree with much of what you said in your opener. However, with that in mind, I was a relatively late starter in aviation (age 28 at the time), already married with two kids. As such, I was never going to impose the "up north" rite of passage on my family, and stayed in the big smoke. In spite of all that, I'm still flying jets for the majors. It just took me a bit longer, that's all. And just like you said, there will always be exceptions to the rule.

At the risk of blowing my own trumpet (which is not my intention, as I consider myself a strictly average, garden variety line driver), nevertheless I have never considered failure a genuine option. Sure there were occasions through the years when it wore me down, but I never doubted my own abilities - and always believed I would be up to the task if given the opportunity.

One of the big problems as I see it, is when a person's desire exceeds their ability, or to put it another way: they think that just because they want it, they should get it. Fuelled by hype from their flight training provider, they convince themselves they've got "the right stuff," when they're probably never going to be top notch pilot material. It's like watching some of those people who audition for "Idol" or "The X Factor," who can't sing for nuts, but in their own minds think they're the latest and greatest. When they bomb out at the audition, they lash out at the judges with furious indignation when their "talent" isn't acknowledged, even though their lack of talent is cringeworthy.

Maybe this is a simplistic view, but natural selection and survival of the fittest tends to ensure that those who eventually make it to an airline are there because they should be. And the opposite is also true. Of course, we all know there are exceptions to that rule as well. :E

[SgtBundy]

Bunglerat - what was your career progression path? I am in a similar situation - 30, kids, mortgage, can't really leave the city due to special needs for the kids but I want to break into aviation. At the moment I am taking my time and putting available funds into working on a PPL and eventually a CPL. It is going to take years, I accept that, there is just no other way short of a lotto win.

But, from all the reading on here and the digging around I have done, all the entry level work is up north. There just seems to be that gap between the 200 hours for the CPL, and the 500 or more most jobs seem to ask for, and up north seems to be the only way to plug that. Just curious as to what path you took that got you to the airlines without the northern rite of passage.

[Peter Fanelli]

Throwing people out of planes isn't a long-term career and I've never heard of anyone who has gone straight from 182 meat bombing to a Q400. So pack your bags, fill the car up and hit the road NOW! If you don't know when the dry season is up north you better look up Wikipedia before you ask an experienced pilot that question, particularly a chief pilot.
Most of us grumpy old pilots never dreamed of going straight from a 182 to a Q400 without paying our dues on Aztecs, Barons, 310s, 402s and yes the much maligned by the gimme generation PA-31.


For what it's worth, I never went up north, I had a good job when I got the CPL and I made the transition to flying by doing odd flying jobs (paid) and getting known around my city. I have never flown for a company to which I applied for a job, only companies who asked me to come and work for them.