Royal Saudi Air Force - impressive toys, but are they any good?

[Jackonicko]

Looking at the Saudi orbat, and at the recent massive orders for more F-15SAs, Apaches, Little Birds and Blackhawks, it's clear that the Saudis have plenty of great equipment. And with bags of high-priced help from contractors, and the impressive seeming Alsalam aircraft company, they ought to be pretty good.............

And yet the stories of incompetence and over-reliance on foreign contractors and 'loan officers' still seem prevalent.

Eg:

The Royal Saudi Air Force - A Paper Tiger, Minus the Tiger
The Royal Saudi Air Force - A Paper Tiger, Minus the Tiger (http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/40-173.aspx)

Misconceptions about the Royal Saudi Air Force as well as musings.
Misconceptions about the Royal Saudi Air Force as well as musings. (http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/40-458.aspx)

So what's the truth?

1) This was an accurate picture back then, and is accurate now.
2) This was an accurate picture back then, but things have improved and it is inaccurate now.
3) This was an accurate picture back then, but things have got even worse.
4) This contains elements of truth, but is fundamentally wrong.
5) This was an exaggerated picture back then, and is even less accurate now.
6) This was an inaccurate picture back then, and is even more inaccurate now.

[Lonewolf_50]

Jackonicko: one of the backbones of the professional militaries in the West has always been the blue collar origin, professional NCO. When it comes to aircraft or other equipment maintenance, that goes double.

The cultural and social questions I have never gotten a satisfactory answer to has been what motivation a young Saudi man has to become a good jet mechanic, or a good airframes mechanic? What expectations does he have about his future, either as a career aircraft mech or doing a hitch and then heading back into society to do ... what?

I am sure there are many decent mechanics in Saudi. When I was in a few other middle eastern places, I noted plenty of small fix it shops run by locals. But maybe those folks in the fix it shop families prefer to not serve under the colors.

As to the pilot corps, my experiences with Saudis goes back to 80's and the few princelings in our training programs in the USN. Not relevant to the year 2010, I don't think, though a couple of them were decent sticks.

[Grumpy106]

Worked with them on Red Flag with their F-15s. Short answer - No. Blue on blue and wouldn't admit any mistakes. Let off the hook by a USAF Colonel so they didn't lose face.

[soddim]

There are many cultural reasons why our Saudi friends have difficulty in performing to western standards but those that do are first rate.

It is perhaps better to compare them with their geographical counterparts because that is where they are most likely to need their skills.

Perhaps a more relevant question today is are they better than the Iranians?

[Willard Whyte]

Was that the '05 det Grumpy?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

It is perhaps better to compare them with their geographical counterparts because that is where they are most likely to need their skills.

The Americans coming back from 12 month alfa tours with them reckon that they are marginally worse than the IqAF (by c.1991 standards) and would struggle against the IrAF today. Of course, against the IDF there would be no contest.

A friend of mine kept an online diary of his one year tour as an FTU IP on the F-15S. Buffoonery abounded. It was hilarious.

[Grumpy106]

Willard

Yes it was. They were given a Mission Lead and screwed up royaly. However, their CAS was visiting and our USAF hosts decided to gloss over their inadequacies for political reasons. When we threatened to pull the tapes to prove how bad they were we were effectively told to be quiet. Very annoying

[moggiee]

The Saudis need not worry - they can rely upon the Israelis to protect them from Iran.

Saudis give nod to Israeli raid on Iran - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6638568.ece)

[The Old Fat One]

Hi Jacko,

I worked with them three years ago. As already mentioned, it is hard to compare like with like as the cultural differences (which impact at every aspect of command in Saudi) are just too wide.

On a more practical note, at the aircrew level the biggest difference is one of variation (which becomes so apparent when you try to teach them). The RAF and other Western military air forces have a bottom line/level for each job. An RAF fast jet jockey is going to be some where between pretty damn good and excellent. (I'm not a pilot, you cannot believe how painful it is to type that!). Some Saudi pilots are very good (I know because some pretty good ex RAF pilots out there hold the same view). On the other hand, if the name is right, the dude gets a job, so there is no bottom line and some of them are.........hopeless.

I have no experience of working with the engineers, but again I know some pretty good guys who have and they seem to think without western input, the whole thing would fall apart.

The Saudi ops guys I worked with were what the US used to call "warm bodies".

One thing in your linked article that really chimes. If a western contractor teaches a Saudi something and he subsequently screws up, it is the contractor that is in deep pooh since it will be considered entirely his fault that the Saudi didn't learn what he was supposed too. Given that the attendence on my course was about 80 percent and several guys just turned up and went to sleep (try teaching Saudi aircrew something they don't want to learn during Ramadam), it is easy to be on a hiding to nothing.

In my view, after spending six months out there as a contractor, they could deliver a kicking to a local adversary as long as that adversary has very limited capabilities and as long as somebody else maintains their fleets and weapons.

Their biggest drawback is their cultural rejection of blame and fault. Its hard to see how any society/organisation can develop in that environment, however it should be recognised that they are committed to "Saudisation" and they have ruling monarch who very much believes it is possible. Massive timescale methinks.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Did 6 1/2 years in sunny Riyadh, and can vouch for the above comments.
Their biggest drawback is their cultural rejection of blame and fault.
When I came back to Oz I was convinced such character traits only existed in Arabic and Asian cultures. Unfortunately I have to admit that it's starting to creep in here too.

[alwayslookingup]

There are lots of cultures have no concept of blame/fault/self analysis/personal reflection. Ever tried working with Nigerians?

[Load Toad]

My experience is that ONLY countries that 'benefit' from the fear / shame / guilt of christianity (even if people latterly turn to atheism) have such introspection. I must modify that - it's not all correct - I think that when people have also been brought up with essentially a Greek philosophy background and a faith in empirical testing and analysis. ah - lets combine the two; then you get this desire to correct and improve - and the culture to do so.

[Sunk at Narvik]

Why Arabs Lose Wars :: Middle East Quarterly (http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars)

this one did the rounds a few years back. Very interesting read.

[racedo]

Sunk

Interesting analysis. Clear interpretation based on that was cut off the head and the body doesn't react but also depends on the circumstances as well as someone defending their homeland with nothing to lose fights different than someone defending a spot in a foreign field.

[Thunderpants]

Having lived and flown in Saudi, I can certainly agree on all that has been said so far. KSA has without doubt the potential to be a Middle Eastern superpower, and a key player on the world stage through it's shear influance and economic might.

However, the cultural and sociological issues thay have are extremly significant hurdles, and these will need to be addressed first. It will take a serious push for change, which will always be held back buy the more conservtive Saudis.

I think that a positive change is happening within Saudi Arabia but it will be an excrutiatingly slow process, and will have a timeline measured in several decades at least.

[hanoijane]

Couldn't possibly comment re: the Arabs - they're a mystery to me - but as someone mentioned Asians... I think you have it with the 'complete inability to accept blame' cultural aspect for the Vietnamese.

However, this failing is mitigated in conflict situations with a corresponding 'complete inability to accept when we're being thrashed stupid' .

A cultural flaw which seems to work out in our favour sometimes.

[BEagle]

I have some nice photos of Saudi Tornado ADVs from Gulf War 1 - as they rolled out in front of the tanker and slowly drifted back into echelon...:hmm:

And Jacko, on the subject of photos, where are the irreplaceable slides I loaned you several years ago and which you promised faithfully would be returned? Please send them back without further delay!

[Jackonicko]

BEagle, I'll chase the publisher again.

J

[Double Zero]

I heard some horror stories from GW 1, including RAF pilots refusing to fly with brainless Saudi's.

Closer to home, what the hell has happened to spelling and grammar ?

It seems the difference between 'there' and 'their' especially is quickly becoming optional !

[Q-RTF-X]

I think that a positive change is happening within Saudi Arabia but it will be an excrutiatingly slow process, and will have a timeline measured in several decades at least.

I worked in Saudi for a while in the mid 70's on the engineering side (Lightnings); I was also an OJT instructor. The mindset that was faced when dealing with our OJT cadets (newly promoted to Warrant Officers on graduation from Technical Training, without so much as getting a pair of hands dirty) was much like observed in many posts here in 2010. I used to think very much like the poster above; yet here we are, 35 years or so down the track, and it would seem not much has changed. Sad.

[Q-RTF-X]

Why Arabs Lose Wars :: Middle East Quarterly

this one did the rounds a few years back. Very interesting read.

Indeed an interesting read.

[air pig]

Story from a an old friend from many years ago about the Tornado F3 OCU at Coningsby and Saudi aircrew,

Staff navigator instructor returns to crew room and throws bone dome at the wall screaming that his pilot had tried to kill him and that was just taxying to the runway. Staff nav instructor leans over side of aircraft and asks friend to come up the steps to start the aircraft. Story from Valley of two hawks parked on taxyway as pilots wanted their lunch and did feel the need to return to the flightline.

[L Peacock]

Double Zero: I heard some horror stories from GW 1, including RAF pilots refusing to fly with brainless Saudi's.
Closer to home, what the hell has happened to spelling and grammar ?
It seems the difference between 'there' and 'their' especially is quickly becoming optional !



You seem to have included a rogue apostrophe in Suadi's. I assume you were using the posessive. Or perhaps superfluous apostophe's are optional?

[AdLib]

LP

You seem to have included a rogue Suadi before your apostophe. I guess superfluous Suadis are optional.

And let's not forget it's''''' 1431 over there. Our fast jet ops weren't up to much then either.

[finestkind]

A quote comes to mind " hard to soar like an eagle when you work, in this case, with goats"

Came across a few potential eagles when I was there but the culture would never allow them to reach a high standard. How do you get out and mix it when all your buddies just wanna drink tea

[Secretive_Santa]

The standard is improving rapidly following recent changes to the recruitment and training of RSAF aircrew.

BTW Beagle, I think the 1st prize for GW1 tanking buffoonery should go to the RAF GR1 crew from Dhahran who rolled inverted to level directly behind the VC10 basket, took a stab at it without stabilising, ripped it cleanly off, before descending back to Dhahran. Job done in less than a minute!

:D

[taxydual]

Tabuk late '80's

Taxydual on 'liaison visit'.

Israeli's send an RF4 PR aircraft on a regular basis (ie you could set your watch by the timing of the overflight).

3 x RSAF on QRA.

All scrambled.

No 1 loses a donk on takeoff. Crashes in the bondhu.

No 2 forgets to remove the pitot tube cover, aborts.

No 3 realises he has no 'mates' to go with him and votes to no-go.

All 3 pilots were 'of the Royal House' (ie money no object), they 'bought' their Pilots Wings rather than earned them.

30 years down the line, I don't think much has changed.



Edited due to successful memory relight.
It was early '80's not late. (81?)
Aircraft were Lightnings.

[Two's in]

Great stories of RSAF incompetence, but none of it changes the fact that they have the sort of kit and funding that makes us look like the third world joke after SDSR.

[Willard Whyte]

...they have the sort of kit and funding that makes us look like the third world joke after SDSR.

By the same token having lots of money, big houses and decent cars doesn't make a footballer anything more than a shaved chimp.

[racedo]

The standard is improving rapidly following recent changes to the recruitment and training of RSAF aircrew.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/431779-should-we-afraid.html

Felt I was rereading some of the thread on Indonesia where because of incompetence in the past people presume it continues for the future where with lots of $$$$ they can buy in what is needed.

After all they bought it what was needed when Kuwait was invaded.

[jindabyne]

Chivenor 1967. Arab pilot (Saudi I think) forgets to select full flap on landing, and inevitably takes the barrier. Crash crews find an empty cockpit. Pilot found reading in the anteroom, and had to be shown the auth sheet to convince him that it was indeed he who had entered the barrier!

[BEagle]

As jindabyne will recall, there was a fatal accident on the approach to Shawbury in the early 1970s involving an Arab student in a Hunter 7....

The rumour going around at the time was that he was on a suspension check and had previously told his course colleagues that he couldn't go home to face the shame if he was chopped.....:mad:

[Jackonicko]

Now if a fatalistic approach, an over-fondness for fine living, and extreme (largely groundless) self confidence and boasting were an indicator of military prowess, then the French would not be the race of successful martial warriors........

Ah, OK. I see your point! :E

Joking aside, I wonder why another Islamic air force (that of Pakistan) has such a different reputation, and why the Omanis are so much more polished and professional than the Air Force in the Kingdom of Saud? (Or are the Omanis just better at PR when it comes to their reputation?)

[Wholigan]

Think he might have been Jordanian jindabyne.

[The Old Fat One]

Jacko...

One word...culture.

Straight from the horse's mouth (in this case a well-educated, wordly, Saudi software engineer.)

Rough quote...

"Westerners confuse religion and culture all the time. Saudi's have the same religion as a country such as Egypt, but the culture could not be more different."

By direct observation, Bahrain and Dharan are about 10 miles apart and joined by a whopping big bridge.

As you drive through the multi layer customs and immigration checks from Bahrain to Saudi you will read a big green sign that says...

"Welcome to Saudi Arabia. If you bring drugs into our country we will execute you."

As you drive from Saudi to Bahrain there is a sign which reads...

"Welcome to Bahrain. The fun starts here".

Anybody who has made that trip (which is pretty much most of Dharan, Saudi or Brit, every Wednesday at 4 pm), knows exactly what that means. Same religion, totally different culture. And at the heart of Saudi culture lies the unstoppable and unshakeable belief that they are always right. That belief is something of a barrier to any form of progressive improvement, ergo progress is slower than an asthmatic ant carrying some heavy shopping (with apologies to Capt Blackadder).

Saudi Arabia is not called the Magic Kingdom for nothing. The only real way to get your head round the bizarre contradictions of Saudi life is go there and visit. Not easy though, unless you are a muslim on the Haj, there is virtually no tourism in Saudi.

Can't get there. I recommend Inside the Kingdom by Robert Lacey.

[Harris1211]

Although not in a fully professional capacity, I was lucky enough to partake in one weeks work experience at the Eurofighter simulator at RAF Coningsby. Although all of the pilots I met, both Saudi and British, were very approachable and friendly; while observing from the observation deck upstairs, the differences in training and proffessional ability were distinctly obvious.

I can re-call one or two times having to remind certain colonels and majors (RSAF) of their pre-flight/emeregency checks, never the less the entire week was enoyable, and re-assured me as to the abilities of our pilots over "certain others" after having a go at dog-fighting some of our new trainees in the FMS.

If any are reading, thanks for a great week :ok:

[TBM-Legend]

what happens when the RSaudiAF finds out that the wings on their F-15's are all made in the land of Zion!:ooh::ooh:

[Squirrel 41]

TBM-L

Israel and Saudi have been on the same end of most of the conflicts since 1948, as they have similar interests in the curbing of radical Arab regimes (Nasser, Asad) and of Iran / Iranian-inspired Shia islamism (Hamas, Hezbollah).

Saudi are especially concerned with Iran both as a direct competitor for control of the Gulf and the Straits of Hormuz, and as a potential rallying point for the Saudi Shia minority in the northern provinces (Daharan and the oilfields).

S41

[jindabyne]

BEagle

I recall it well. As his Flt Cdr I flew with Off/Cdt Mom*** on 24 Oct 73, and recommended his suspension from further training. In those days, protocol required that the foreign student then had to fly a 'confirmatory' trip with the Sqn Cdr.This took place on a dank Friday, and included a manual GCA approach to Shawbury - during which the T7 'dived' into a wood some two miles short of the runway. The subsequent BoI, which I was a part of, found that there was nothing to suggest that there was a fault with the aircraft. We were all left to draw our own conclusions. RIP Ron - lovely man.

[BEagle]

Presumably it wasn't politically acceptable to suggest that the little $od had committed suicide and murdered his QFI?

Not much time to fight for control at 600 ft, particularly with the high control column loads in manual. And who would have had the coolness to attempt to reach up and switch the power controls back on at such a late stage in the approach when the other pilot is determined to commit suicide by stuffing the nose earthwards?

[jindabyne]

BEags,

Such talk had to be discouraged by the Staish, but most (and he) felt that there was awful substance in what you suggest. I most certainly did. Hunters, even in manual, did not have a history or tendency to dive into the ground from a hitherto stable approach.

"Astagh-firu-Allah"

The little basta*d.

[BEagle]

Hmmm.... If the Stn Cdr ('Tojo'?) tried to keep such a lid on speculation, then there must have been very strong suspicions...

שבת-שלום

[TBM-Legend]

I witnessed a Singapore AF Hunter doing a manual rejoin just roll over and into the ground while turning base at Tengah....

Maybe a Saudi exchange pilot!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Do the Saudis need a small fleet of MPA? If they'll buy F3s, they'll buy anything:E

[chopd95]

IIRC, the impresive Saudi toys at RAFC in late 60's included a lamborghini miura, pontiac firebird, shelby cobra, and, allegedly, various Playmates at College Balls!!

[BEagle]

To which you can add a Ford Thunderbird - and the black Aston Martin DB6 which I once witnesssed 'burning doughnuts' on the JMPG! When the same driver was the 'penult' duty bod keeping an eye on his Junior Entry, his religion didn't stop him from drinking beer in the JM bar....:oh:

Due to various Saudi 'problems', allegedly these spoiled-brat princelings were eventually banned from being within a 50-mile radius of central London whilst at the Towers.

[Agaricus bisporus]

The Middle East Forum has some interesting articles but is rabidly isolationist, pro Israel and also strongly anti European. A glance at the list of director's names might indicate why. That it is also highly critical of Arabs is therefore no surprise.

On a different note, my experience of training with "internationals" was that the Middle Eastern guys were all present due to family influence rather than ability or merit and had no intention whatsoever of learning anything, rather that they were there to be taught. This rather subtle point was brought up during a night out with some of our instructors who were at their wit's trying to teach these goons. It subsequently became very obvious that the onus was on the instructors to "teach" the skills into the trainees' heads with no expectation of effort required on the trainees part. Thus any failure was that of the instructors inability to teach effectively rather than of the students' failure to learn. How do you deal with that?
They were not issued with licences, grades or pass/fail results, merely a "certificate of course completion". I had it on good authority that a failure or chopping a stude mid-course would result in losing the contract as an indication of the school's failure to teach!

They sent one such steely-eyed hero back to the Royal Saudi Police armed with said certificate as a "helicopter pilot" having gone through the motions of a year-long approved CPL(H) course yet still only "safe" to make a single solo circuit (with his instructor a bag of nerves) after a full hour of dual revision - at the end of a 150 hr course!

[chopd95]

Beagle, correct! and the very term "penult" would mean nothing to those who do not now know!

Was once able to say that I had walked in the steps of a Saudi prince - M.....n bin Faisal bin Saud gave me his patent leather dress shoes!!

Flying with Sqdn Ldr B...l J..o, asked him about teaching the Saudi royals, reply was "teach them just the same as you, except we don't tell them to to look in the mirror - you never know"!!

JMPG is now a carpark? Felt totally wrong to be told to drive across the main CHOM parade ground last year - could hear CWO Garbett turning in his grave!!

[BEagle]

The abbreviation 'CHOM' (or, even worse, the acronym) I've always held to be utterly superfluous. The correct term is simply 'College Hall', surely?

I'm sure that the erstwhile CWWO would indeed agree that the only correct method of crossing such hallowed ground is by marching across it!

[A2QFI]

Never mind Garbett - what about Jack Holt??!!

[chopd95]

Beagle,
quite right, apologies for drifting into "yoof speak" !
Was always, and still is College Hall.

Distant memory tells me that a prize was "allegedly" invented for M....n bin etc etc on the basis that he actually played the game - 94C ?

As to "impressive toys" - IIRC the princelings had a spare supercar between them so as not to be without transport when the sound system on the Thunderbird etc was iin for servicing!

lectures in Whittle Hall would pause to listen to the sound of whichever V8 was arriving late!

[chopd95]

A2QFI,
slightly before my time I think, though the presentation of the Jack Holt pace stick is clearly still an honour.

The CWO standing on College Hall and b.....g a slack flight cadet on Junior Mess parade ground still resonates!!

As does the CWO watching Cranwell v Sandhurst rugby, big hit on "one of ours " big shout from CWO - "Do you know it cost X? million pounds to train that gentleman to fly" !!

IIRC there was a Saudi royal visit, Royal Guard of Honour required, bit of a struggle to find a Saudi princeling who had ever done drill, let alone be the guard of honour commander !!