Airline Cadetship

[dreamer84]

Hi all,

I've been following with some interest the numerous threads on here about airline cadetships. I don't wish to begin another 'us v them' scenario here but am looking to hear a little more about the benefits/disadvantages of a cadetship in Aus.

I have a CPL but am now at the crossroads of my career/life. I'm married and have just had a child so obviously a stable career is very much at the forefront here. I even applied for ATC and have an interview next month. Just when I thought I'd settled for that idea the 'pangs' of flying professionally bit again. I guess for me the traditional route of GA is no longer a viable option, and I know we've heard all that before from some on here. But with a wife that can't work and a baby to feed it really is out of the question to pack everything and go. I know you're all probably thinking 'he should've thought about that before getting married/pregnant etc' but thats an argument for another day!

My question(s) is.....Is it a stupid idea to, over the next year or so (being currently full-time employed and living quite cheap) to aim to gain a MECIR and pass ATPL subjects with the intention of 'becoming' qualified for an airline cadetship? (specifically Jetstar.) I know the traditionalists among you probably hate the idea but if I could head north and slog it out I really would. I'd love to. I hope to hear from those with genuine and constructive advice, not from those just wishing to bash cadet schemes. I understand both sides here but if it worked out that a cadetship gave me a little more stability/possibility than the traditional route then I'm asking why not?

I'm mature enough to know how the world works and more specifically the advantages of cutting my teeth flying GA, and 2 or 3 yrs ago I would've done that no question. I've self funded my flying, slogged it out on mine sites and shearing sheds so I get what hard work is just as much as anyone. So with respect, I don't wish to be compared to those straight out of high school with a blank cheque from their parents. And I've never worn Top Gun sunnies in my life!:cool: So with a little understanding of the T & C's of JQ cadets and the like, I look forward to hearing back from you.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Wizofoz]

dreamer,

Have you actually looked at what the J* Cadetship entails?

Do you have $70k to spare, or the ability to borrow it, then pay it back while earning a very paltry wage AND feeding you family?

Seems to me that the Cadetships are a shortcut for those young and unencumbered enough to live on nothing for a good period of time. I thik they'd be LESS attractive to someone in your position than getting a job up North that at least pays you.

I'm not amongst the traditionalists who think someone going through a Cadet scheme is somehow an inferior pilot (I don't think Australia NEEDS cadet schemes, but that's a different argument!!), but I think that if you consider it a financial/lifestyle improvement, you don't really understand what it entails.

I've got kids and obviously, having decided on parenthood, their future is paramount. I gave up a couple of dearly loved (but dangerous) passtimes out of concern for their future. You've done the same and, as such, I think you've put yourself in the position where pursuing flying is going to be difficult.

[j3pipercub]

dreamer,

The advice below is given with little to no experience of cadetships, but with a reasonably good knowledge of the industry. Furthermore, there is no ill-will intended below.

I would question some of your reasoning though.

I guess for me the traditional route of GA is no longer a viable option, and I know we've heard all that before from some on here. But with a wife that can't work and a baby to feed it really is out of the question to pack everything and go.

All airlines, when you are the brand new trainee will have you moving to where-ever no-one else wants to go until you move up in the seniority list (Unless you are in REX and your wife rings the CP crying, or so I've heard). How does Darwin sound? Or Wagga?

Furthermore, on what a cadetship pays, with a wife that cannot work and a little one, you will need a second job more than likely to put food on the table and have any standard of living, especially in somewhere like Darwin.

I know you're all probably thinking 'he should've thought about that before getting married/pregnant etc' but thats an argument for another day!

My personal outlook on this is that you have chosen to bring a life into this world, therefore your life is now utterly devoted to that one. You made the decision, now own it. But as you say, perhaps another day.

Have a look at some of these previous threads on the J* cadetship:

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/419038-jetstar-cadetship-again.html

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/428383-jetstar-cadetship.html

ABC article

Jetstar pilot program 'puts savings before safety' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/24/2991996.htm)

New Zealand article (well the comments after it)

Story - Campbell Live - TV Shows - 3 News (http://www.3news.co.nz/TVShows/CampbellLive/Story/tabid/817/articleID/160007/Default.aspx)

Look beyond the smart comments and vitriol and look at the figures for pay and loans etc.

If the airline(s) paid for these cadetships and there was a significant amount of time spent in the RHS in order to get a good grasp on everything, it would be a good way to go. In fact it is probably more relevant than a 206 into Elcho Island. But they do not, the cadet must be responsible for the cost, and are essentially another revenue stream for the company.

So with respect, I don't wish to be compared to those straight out of high school with a blank cheque from their parents.

But you seem to have the same mentality as them by wanting to do this cadetship. And if you think you will have any respect with the people you hope to one day fly with, you are sadly mistaken. Take my word for it, and I do wear raybans...:cool:

There are other options though, for a new CPL, if you are in any way religious, you could try the MAF traineeship

Mission Aviation ACMA | Bible College of Victoria (http://www.bcv.vic.edu.au/MissionAviation.aspx)

I have a good friend who has two little ones and is living in Arnhem Land with them, they seem to provide a career path and a safe, stable working environment. Also you have the added plus of actually helping someone whilst doing what you love.

Just my 2 cents worth, and goodluck whatever you choose to do.

j3

[dreamer84]

Gday Wiz,

Thanks for that. I don't know exactly the numbers of the J* scheme, other than they're not great. The 70k you speak of, thats not an upfront cost is it? My understanding is that it was payable over time. If it is an upfront then ill say good bye now and brush up on my reading skills!

I'm under no illusions that this is even an option, but if the possibility did exist then i'd regret not looking into it.

Family is no.1 of course, but if number 2 happened to be flying for a living then that'd be ok by me.

[dreamer84]

cheers J3,

Though maybe keep the parenting advice to a minimum, don't need anyone telling me to own up to my responsibilities!!

I understand everything you're saying, and that of previous threads too. And in answer, Darwin sounds great. I'm happy to relocate. The only difference I can see, and theres every chance I'm wrong, if an airline made you relocate then presumably you're employed. My understanding of how things work in GA, and typically up north, is you need to be there before operators start employing. Then there's the issue of finding temporary work, accomodation etc. I just don't know that it'll work for me in my current situation. It might even work out that I take that path in a year or two, but just looking at different things now.

And I wouldn't say I 'chose' to bring a life into this world, though I love it more than anything!! ;)

I do know several airline cadets and the pilots they fly with, and I take exception on their behalf of people saying they don't have the respect of their peers because I know for fact the skippers I deal with enjoy working with some of these said cadets. Obviously true (no respect) in some parts but not all. Surely if someone proves themselves through hard work, respect and skill that it wouldn't matter to someone the path they took. But anyway, I'm entering dangerous ground with all this I know. Didn't want to start an argument with anyone!

But appreciate your advice all the same, shall look into your links, thanks.

[4Greens]

Try the military. They pay you to learn to fly properly. Do the years and then there will be plenty of airline jobs going.

[j3pipercub]

Sounds like you've got it sorted...

[dreamer84]

Its funny, the more I read and think the less appealing it seems. Still keen on objective opinions though.

[mattyj]

..its hard not to resent them when you watch planes flying over while pushing them on the swings..
..you will make the right decision and do the right thing but you will also go mad over time and end up getting pushed around a ward with a quilt over your knees by your kids if you can't find the money to scratch your "itch" every once and a while..trust me:sad:

[das Uber Soldat]

I do know several airline cadets and the pilots they fly with, and I take exception on their behalf of people saying they don't have the respect of their peers because I know for fact the skippers I deal with enjoy working with some of these said cadets. Obviously true (no respect) in some parts but not all. Surely if someone proves themselves through hard work, respect and skill that it wouldn't matter to someone the path they took

heh.

he'll be fine. :E

[solowflyer]

Mate I'm in the same situation but minus the kid at this stage. The biggest thing you do have in your favour is time at 26 you don't need to rush in but but make sure you keep moving foward bit like the story of "young bull old bull" (do I need to tell it?). Instructing part time on weekends may be your best answer at least you will be home each night and can earn a decent wage during the week.

You mention mining and shearing sheds I'm doing the mines now (dont like sheep even though I'm Kiwi and live in the wheat belt:p) to try and save up for my next stint up north as I just cant afford to live off 500 a week. I have over 1000 single hrs and the next step is those 500 multi. I have found as you gain more hours it is easier to get flying jobs.

As for the Cadetships they have their place but I think it will be at a great financial cost down the track and you will regreat it when it becomes time to buy the house etc. There are other ways to build the hours and earn a good living such as Surveying I belive all the survey companies are looking for pilots but again this has its downside such as not letting you have a life doing 6-8week shifts belive me it sucks big time unless you are single.

Appart from winning Lotto there is no easy way its all about sacrifices, each path has its merrits and pitfalls and you just have to find the least painfull one that suits you.

[morno]

Have you thought about doing another 12 months or so in the mines, saving up the $$'s, then going north with some money behind you to live for up to 6 months?

morno

[RR RB211]

dreamer 84

From my limited knowledge, ATC would probably have you moving around too but as you say - at least you'd have a job. Not many airlines I know pay for relocation costs too so you may need to factor this in if you're cadet scheme focussed.


Before I gave up a well paying job I tolerated to go flying instead a very senior captain said to me "why don't you just keep doing that and go flying on the weekend for fun? It'll take you 5-10 years to earn that money again in this industry so multiply that number of years by the salary you're giving up - there's the real cost of you following that dream."


Well, I knew better of course but as I've learnt, he was right.


My two cents would be to either do the ATC thing and fly for fun on your days off once you've finished pushing them around (or stay where you are earning money for wife and kids and fly for fun)


OR


Get an instructor rating and stay in the city (I presume you live in a big city thus the reluctance to pack up and head north) and work your way up there hours wise and explore the direct entry airline option once you meet their requirements, if that is what you still want to do.


Everyone's aviation career is different and know doubt yours will be too. Good luck.

[dreamer84]

Thanks everyone for the constructive advice,

I don't live in a big city; reluctance to move north is based on relocating costs, family and lack of stable employment if I go. Not interested in the mines anymore, good money but not the life you want. I guess thats my prob...too fussy!

RR, I've heard the same advice over and over, its just hard to get my head around not flying professionally when its all you've dreamt of hey?! I guess now with a family these sorts of dreams have to give way to a house and half a decent life one day!!

mattyj; just what I'm worried about!!

Anyway, don't wish to bore anyone with all of this but enjoying your feedback. Thanks Wan, for the info....still very unsure about the whole thing. The stuff on here about cadetships already is pretty damning.

[Nadsy]

Dreamer,

I'm probably your least qualified/valuable contributor, as I neither got a cadetship nor did I end up going North to 'slog it out'.

HOWEVER, my perspective comes from one where I got to interview and medical stage with the Qantas commercial level cadetship a few years ago, and more recently to top 3 out of 130 applications (apparently) for a job up North. Although these are both monumental failures, I'm in the same race as you are.

The short answer to your question is that: if you want to be an airline pilot (via GA or Cadetship), you'll need the ME-CIR and ATPLs... if you can afford to do it while you don't have flying work, do so, because it's better than trying to take time off during flying work (IMO).

With respect to the family influence on which way you go, my comments are as follows (only having read your post, not the whole thread):

1. I just want to say that it's a shame that these days to get constructive feedback on this site for the up and comers, one has to spend 75% of the post on a disclaimer, pleading to not get hammered. It was different 5 or so years ago, and now I mostly PM my responses;
2. The ability to achieve aviation related goals whilst married with a child, is directly proportional to your partner's willingness to come along for the ride. This is no judgment on peoples partners, it's just that there are different levels of 'go with the flow';
3. Give it 6 to 18 months before deciding that having a child prevents you from doing GA work for a bit. My daughter was 5 weeks old when I headed off for my Instructor Rating, and this was while my wife still had the nurses coming over Re: the baby blues. It gets better, and it gets easier... 2 years on, my wife is prepared to head to the back of beyond for the prescribed 2-3 yrs required;
4. You aren't that old, but the cadetship is a bit like winning the lotto... you can't bank on it, and if you get it, everyone hates you. Regardless, you still have to have a more concrete plan in place if it's where you want to be.

I did a couple of years instructing, and I'd now like to use my Instrument rating and C310 endorsement to spend a couple of years learning the in's and out's of GA, and still intend to do so, but I also know what I eventually want to be doing, and being 10 years older than you are, I too am hedging my bets, and putting an entry in for a couple of the rare cadetship opportunities to become an RPT pilot.

Best of luck mate! I wish you well.

Nads.

[Mr. Hat]

With a wife and kids I'd say cadetship would be the best way for you. I'd take advantage of it now as it might all change shortly.

Personally I support 1500 - 2000hours in the bush before you even get near a metro/jetstream. (If you are the right candidate).

[anonymouspilot]

Dutchie,
Do you really think qf direct entry will open up in the short to medium term? I know it's the million dollar question, but wandering if this idea is based on anything and if you or anyone else has anything to add...fingers crossed anyway.

[BoundaryLayer]

IMHO I think you should plan a path via a traditional approach, i.e. getting the relevant tickets, getting a job, etc.

By all means apply for the cadetship and IF successful (sorry for the negativity but it seems too many people asking about whether they should apply for cadetships seem to think acceptance into said cadetship is a foregone conclusion) then bypass this plan and work out your finances accordingly :E.

If unsuccessful then adopt original plan. I'd probably then work towards the Qantaslink traineeship requirements and have a crack at that. If unsuccessful then an instructor rating would be sensible, look for some casual/weekend work to keep your main job and keep hours ticking over, with the aim to eventually get to G2 + multi-training approval. At which time you would probably be suitably experienced for DE on better Ts & Cs :)

[eocvictim]

Not interested in the mines anymore, good money but not the life you want. I guess thats my prob...too fussy!

I hear this so often with career changers. Not spending enough time at home, missing out on their kids growing up etc. How different do you think life in an airline will be? I work days, nights, public holidays, birthdays and christmas doing 40-45hrs/w and thats considered a good lifestyle change from the airlines.

Granted that is the comment from guys in Cx not J* or Qf.

[dijon moutard]

i can offer a perspective from someone that went through aviation via "general aviation" (in the 1980's with a "young family in tow") and now flying an airbus a320:

make sure you " knock off " your ATPL subjects.
this will limit your career in the "long run";i started with a regional airline in wa in 1987 and have progressed from AC500 (shrike) to jet aircraft .

persistence/hard work and study will see you through !!!!

cheers
mustard:ok:

[Gas Bags]

Firstly I am not a pilot and have no desire to be one. I just want to add a different perspective for you.

I joined the airlines as an apprentice engineer 23 years ago (In my opinion the apprenticeship is similar to the cadet pilot scheme). My first year I made about $8000. I did work two extra jobs as well as the full time hours at the airline as I was not living with parents and I had a car loan for my transport which I required to get to my full time job, and my other jobs. It was normal for me to work 19-20 hour days at this time in my life, with 6-8 hour days on Sat and Sun.
Slowly my wages came up enough in my full time airline job to the point that 5 years later I made $45,000. Another three years later (and lots of studying, courses etc) I was making $80,000. In my years since that time as an LAE I have personally spent more than $75,000, as well as more than 8 months of my own time either on annual leave, or unpaid leave on further training to advance my qualifications in order to secure better employment. I have been employed by a number of major airlines in that time and through timing and circumstance employer provided training was unavailable or too far in the future for me to consider waiting. Trust me I did not like outlaying my own hard earned money and holiday time, but I made that decision and have no regrets at all. My last job I was making the equivalent of $200,000. (All figures are AUD).

The perspective I am putting across is that you can spend money in the early years and do it a bit hard, however with the support of your wife you can succeed and get your dream job of being a professional pilot. As the saying goes....It wont happen overnight, but it will happen. If you want it to.

I know I am going to get smashed here but I would recommend the cadetship, if you are lucky enough to get selected. You wont be ostracised by the other guys unless you're a jackass, in which case whatever job you held you will still get treated like one. It is a lot easier to post anonymously on PPruNe about the treatment you will receive than it is to actually act the way towards a fellow workmate that said posters say will happen.

You will do it tough financially whilst the debt is repayed to J* (but you will get by), then you will only be early 30's and looking down the barrel of some decent wages for the rest of your life. Something would have to go awfully wrong if you did not succeed if you get selected for the scheme.

I do not wish to take anything away from the valid opinions of many posters here regarding cadet schemes, however times have changed (they changed for my profession a couple of decades before yours, except for the chosen few) but I accepted that and invested in my future which is also my family's future.

If I was in your shoes I would jump at a chance like this and accept the outlay to achieve your long term dreams and goals. I certainly would not alter a life decision such as this by placing stock on the replies from an anonymous forum. Just be prepared for the fact that you will spend a few years moving from place to place and then possibly country to country, but it will be an interesting road you and your family will travel.

On the other hand you could spend the rest of your days talking into the mike and dreaming of what might have been....

Standing by with crash helmet on...

GB

[dreamer84]

thanks again everyone,

All very insightful and encouraging. And thanks for going out on a limb GB!! I don't plan on making any big decisions based on replies from here but they certainly make me think a little harder about which direction to head.

eoc, i agree the lifestyle of an airline pilot wouldn't be all that dissimilar to a fly-in fly-out miner, the big difference being flying a jet about the place versus dumping rocks into a crusher (and crappy camp food for weeks at a time!)

Anyway, I'm enjoying all the feedback. I even let my wife read of all this so she could form some sort of opinion.

Thanks

[Mr. Hat]

Camp food is better than airline food unless you work for something with a white rat on the tail.

[patienceboy]

If I was earning good money on a mine site and had a new family, I would probably buy a house and pay as much of it off as possible over the next few years. Meanwhile I would study a degree in my down time and look at a career change once that was complete. If you do a degree in an aviation related field you could move into management/operations/similar where your CPL would complement your work. Just another option.:ok:

Importantly, if your wife isn't as happy to commit 100% to aviation as you are it isn't really a viable option.

[solowflyer]

Doing shift work on the mines is not all that great a lifestyle 12hr on/off day shift night shift, its boring as bat crap if your involved in the production side of things and being away fom home for weeks on end is not great for relationships. when you add up the real costs you don't actually make that much more than you could in the city but because you are stuck out in some hot dusty hell hole in the middle of desert you can save alot quickly as there is nothing to spend your coin on.

[bushy]

Gas bags has it right. Notice that he does not bitch about anything.

[travelator]

Mostly agree with Gas Bags except the high paying jobs at the end of your apprenticeship are increasingly rare and decreasingly lucrative in this job!
In 12-18 months time when Qantas open their big pearly white recruitment gatesHa ha ha ha!

[Mr. Hat]

I work days, nights, public holidays, birthdays and christmas doing 40-45hrs/w and thats considered a good lifestyle change from the airlines.

Does sort of sound like airline flying...