Is Mixed Fleet Legal?

[Outsider2010]

As an outside observer, I have been following both the Cabin Crew and SLF threads on the BA industrial dispute for some time. Whilst I sympathise with BA cabin crew and also understand what BA are doing having had my own business some time ago, one has to question if what BA are doing is legal. BA are effectively setting up a new company within a company whilst putting it's existing current cabin crew and a layer of management out of work by setting up Mixed Fleet.
My knowledge of employment law isn't brilliant and I'm curious if anyone with a legal mind has any views or opinions on this.

[Juan Tugoh]

Is MF legal?

Yes.

[wascrew]

why are they putting anybody out of work?

dont think they are


noone has been sacked or given VR outside of industrial dispute and last year

mixed fleet will grow with growth and attrition


so def legal IMHO

[Outsider2010]

How is it legal please?

[Betty girl]

I am current cabin crew and they are not putting me out of work.
It is a new fleet with new terms and conditions and it will grow as current crew leave through natural wastage or retirement.

There are some crew on hear that do make out we are all going to be forced onto this new Mixed Fleet but that is not what is actually happening. Our terms and conditions are not changing other than working with less crew than we did before, but most crew are not unhappy with this change.

BA have made huge savings from these new crewing levels and they will over time make more savings with the introduction of Mixed Fleet.

Many crew are worried by the change and many do not trust BA. Crew do worry that in a few years or so BA will come back for more savings from us current crew but I do not see any plan to get rid of any of us or force any of us onto Mixed Fleet.

[Outsider2010]

why are they putting anybody out of work?

dont think they are


noone has been sacked or given VR outside of industrial dispute and last year

mixed fleet will grow with growth and attrition



According to a friend who has a friend in BA who actually came to work during the dispute, and also signed up to the the offer in June made to Non Union members, their work is dwindling. This person who is extremely passionate and also fairly senior, has already seen work decrease for the month of November. I believe Mixed Fleet starts on the 1st of November and it seems to have had a small impact already.

[R2D2-LHR]

Please, we have seen this "friend of a friend" evidence before.

We at BA already have separate fleets , MF is only a new addittion to a long line.

Plus I think the BA legal team would have already worked out if this cost cutting move to save the company and give it a long term finacially secure future is legal or not.

[Betty girl]

My roster is as busy as ever. There is always a downturn in October due to the Winter schedule being leaner and not many crew taking leave in October and November.

The majority of the Mixed Fleet crew joining in November have moved across from our current fleets or were flying as temps up until now also on our current fleets. So the overall crewing levels are about the same as they would have been had Mixed Fleet not have started.

It is always the case in aviation that you get periods of slightly being over crewed and then periods, often in the summer, when you are under crewed and crew end up doing overtime. It is the nature of our industry, as crew have to be trained up in advance of the programme expanding.

[Outsider2010]

I am current cabin crew and they are not putting me out of work.
It is a new fleet with new terms and conditions and it will grow as current crew leave through natural wastage or retirement.

There are some crew on hear that do make out we are all going to be forced on to this new Mixed Fleet but that is not what is actually happening. Our terms and conditions are not changing other than working with less crew than we did before, but most crew are not unhappy with this change.

BA have made huge savings from these new crewing levels and they will over time make more savings with the introduction of Mixed Fleet.

Many crew are worried by the change and many do not trust BA. Crew do worry that in a few years or so BA will come back for more savings from us current crew but I do not see any plan to get rid of any of us or force any of onto Mixed Fleet.

Betty Girl,
Thanks for the explanation, appreciate it.
I totally understand what you are saying having followed both threads and also having read your posts, I fully understand the situation on both sides.
What BA have done does seem very reasonable, most people outside BA like myself appreciate this which is why I do also disagree with the strike.
Having said that, I do understand the fears of current crew.

Are you not concerned by the possible lack of work in the coming months once works is transferred to Mixed Fleet and there is a decrease in you earnings, I believe they are meal allowances which make up a substantial part of your salary?

[Betty girl]

I have a strange feeling you might be crew yourself?

But just in case you are a genuine person.

Yes, obviously we are all worried that some of the popular routes will move to Mixed Fleet but BA have given reassurances that it will be done fairly and Brenden Barber,of ACAS, is going to be overseeing that it is fair, on a yearly basis. They have also given us a monthly payment guarantee.

I think that sounds fair to me but I have no crystal ball.

All I can do is choose to believe BA or not.

I have worked for BA for over 22 years and in that time they have always been a fair and good employer, so I choose to believe BA.

Some crew foolishly went on strike and have lost their staff travel as a result. I personally wish it was given back to them but it is not my decision. This I think is clouding the vision of many of them. They are so cross about it that they cannot see that this deal is in fact very reasonable for us current crew.

[MPN11]

As an outside observer, I have been following both the Cabin Crew and SLF threads on the BA industrial dispute for some time.

An interesting hobby. Are you a journalist?

[wascrew]

betty girl quote

``Yes, obviously we are all worried that some of the popular routes will move to Mixed Fleet but BA have given reassurances that it will be done fairly and Brenden Barber,of ACAS, is going to be overseeing that it is fair, on a yearly basis. They have also given us a monthly payment guarantee.`


can you copy that bit from the new offer?

i think BF originally offered safeguards but nothing concrete now apart from fleeting of new aircaft

i cant see WW agreeing to BB interfering in that nor will WW interfere

routes will transfer fairly i think to start with but commercial pressure will have imput too

[Juan Tugoh]

How is it legal please?

How is it illegal?

[Betty girl]

Warcrew,
This is a reply to a question about route transfers by Bill Francis on Friday.
Please note the second to last paragraph where I have highlighted and underlined.

************************************************************ ************************************************************ ***********
Quote:
Hi Bill

In your proposal, you've said that it is the company's intention to ensure a fair and transparent distribution of routes on a commercial basis.

As you know, there are three (quite nice) new routes starting up next year at LHR, namely to SAN, EZE and HND - all of which would fall under the Long Range Agreement if operated by Worldwide.

However, the general feeling is that these will be operated by Mixed Fleet.

I'm well aware that no decision has probably been taken yet as to which fleet will operate the routes, but if you really do mean what you say about route allocation in your proposal, would it not be a good idea to then give us a bit of encouragement/commitment on your part by stating that at least one of these new routes would come to Worldwide????

Thanks.
............................................................ ............................................................ ...............................
Thanks for your question. I know route allocation remains a concern for current crew. I have always said that it is my intention to allocate routes fairly across all fleets and the proposal reinforces that approach.

If you take a look at the routes that are planned for Mixed Fleet over the next 6 months, I believe they represent a balance of destinations as promised. For clarity current plans are:-

Prague, Pisa, St Petersburg, Denver, Las Vegas, Budapest, Nairobi, Copenhagen, Accra, Atlanta, Amsterdam.

This is a changing picture but I think actions speak louder than words.

The key to route allocation is that the work will not move first. What does happen is that over time there will not be enough current crew to operate all of our routes, especially as we take 747's out of the desert and there is a natural turnover of crew through leavers and part time.

Only when we need more crew to man our flights will we move work over to Mixed Fleet, and then in a balanced way. As a further safeguard, the proposal confirms that the TUC (Brendan Barber) will review the implementation of the proposal every 12 months, and this is clearly one of the points that Brendan will be looking at very closely.

You are right that no decisions have been taken re new growth routes. I also expect routes to be operated by different fleets in different seasons as customer demand changes. Las Vegas is a good example of this.

Thanks
Bill
__________________
Bill Francis
Head of InFlight Customer Experience (IFCE)

************************************************************ ************************************************************ **********

As I have always said, all you can do is choose to believe BA or not and I choose to believe them.

[Chuchinchow]

I have a strange feeling you might be crew yourself?

I have a feeling that the contributor who started this thread is an ex-CSD who now divides his time between his greenhouse and hanging on to his "other" job by his fingernails.

Both the style of his messages and their content (i.e. sowing doubt among the more gullible of his constituents) are all too risibly familiar. I seem to recall him telling his flock that he had been on a "communications course" during the summer; if these are the results he is clearly entitled to a refund of his fees.

What is abundantly clear is that he is a sciolist.

[One Outsider]

Betty Girl,

Do you think that the correspondence you just posted was intended for dissemination on a public website?

[wascrew]

betty girl


thank you for the copy of BF web chat

this bit is pertanent then

`. As a further safeguard, the proposal confirms that the TUC (Brendan Barber) will review the implementation of the proposal every 12 months, and this is clearly one of the points that Brendan will be looking at very closely.


so, will BB be able to say for example
``no we want the EZE route to remain with the `heritage` crew``

BA reply by saying `sorry it is not commercially viable for anyone but mixed fleet to operate the route``

so i am confused as to what BB`s input will be

[Betty girl]

Of course not.

BA will obviously make decisions on which routes will be be flown by which crew but they have given undertakings to be fair. No one can give cast iron agreements about these things unless they have a crystal ball.

[Betty girl]

The point is that we have no power to stop BA starting up a different fleet on different terms. Our best chance would have been a union that actually participated in cost cutting talks with the company in a meaningful way to help protect us crew in the first place.

No crew wanted Mixed Fleet to come along on these lower terms and conditions but the way Bassa has handled all of this, has actually made it worse and actually hardened Willie Walsh's attitude towards crew and the strike has caused it to come in stronger and harder and weakened the union at the same time.

Now a strike threat does not worry Walsh at all because he now has an army of volunteers to ride any strike out with.

My advise would be to any fellow crew to accept this offer now and worry about your staff travel later.

[keel beam]

There are a number of new routes starting up, with the mixed fleet crew, that would not have been viable with "legacy" crew.

BA have stated that they will be looking at new route opportunities as they now are more viable with mixed fleet.

[hellsbrink]

An interesting hobby. Are you a journalist?

I would have said something more along the lines of "quelqu'un qui est assis avec un gros pot de merde et une cuillère en bois" but I guess "journalist" is just as accurate.







apologies for my French, it's been some years

[Diplome]

Pardon my being cynical but we go from "Is it legal?" which is in itself a rather bizarre question to this remark:


Are you not concerned by the possible lack of work in the coming months once works is transferred to Mixed Fleet and there is a decrease in you earnings, I believe they are meal allowances which make up a substantial part of your salary?


I get the point. You don't like Mixed Fleet. However, as SLF I can state that I'm very enthused about the concept...and Mixed Fleet IS a fact of life.

At this point in time trying to deny the reality of Mixed Fleet operating is a bit like objecting to Cameron as P.M.. Mr. Cameron has the job, as does Mixed Fleet.