Food for thought for McDonalds Airline Employee aka EK

[sheikmyarse]

In terms of inflation adjusted dollars, Airline pilots today earn less than half of what they did 35 years ago. The unit of work can be measured by flight hours, duty hours, hours away from home, Revenue Passenger Miles, Available Seat Miles, or most importantly, revenue generated per pilot.


Industry hyperbole: Pilots are paid way too much. Look at the hourly wage. Look at how little they work. Seems like a whole lot of money to pay someone for a part time hobby.

In reality if consideration is given to opportunity cost, time value of money, true number of hours required to become and work as a commercial pilot, risk in terms of not completing a career for any number of reasons, including getting killed; The economic justification is not substantiated to become a commercial pilot even if the career goal is attained.

Industry belief: There is not now nor will there ever be a shortage of people willing to work as pilots at any wage.

True fact. Nor will there ever be a shortage of people willing to be Professional Ball players, or Firefighters or CEOs at any wage. The question is this: Will the industry be able to attract and retain the level of competence required at any wage? The answer is no. At the current Federal minimum wage you would not be able to consistently find competent Professional Ball players, Firefighters, CEOs or Airline pilots.

Industry stance: Pilots don’t get paid minimum wage and planes are not falling out of the sky.

The current national manpower pool of airline pilots came in with substantially higher career expectations, thus capability than what will be the next generation airline pilots. Airlines now operate on borrowed time during the transition. It will take years, perhaps a decade for current pilots to retire and or leave the profession in significant numbers before the damage to safety will be acknowledged.

Industry opinion: Statistically we are enjoying an era of unprecedented airline safety. There will always be some level of risk to flying.

A time bomb is being built as airlines focus on lower expectation pilots. As the industry continues the “race to the bottom” airline leadership will confront a pilot labor pool decimated to such an extent that safe, reliable air transportation will no longer be feasible within the cost structure they created. As the next generation pilots take command we will see much more of what is now just the tip of an alarming iceberg: Unthinkable missteps by incompetent pilots resulting in massive loss of life and substantial hull losses. Recent events such as the Helios 737 crash, the West Caribbean MD-82 crash, the American Airbus A300 crash, the Northwest Pinnacle CRJ crash and the Delta Comair CRJ crash are examples are inexcusable errors that should have never happened. Safe air travel was built by minimizing identifiable risk. The industry has become complacent with the current level of safety and is willing to accept increased risk in an effort to reduce personnel costs.

Industry objective: Replace human capability with technology. Over the last 35 years the modern airliner has been loaded with safety features in an attempt to idiot-proof flying. If we can teach Homer Simpson to run a nuclear power plant we can now teach his twin brother to fly a jet plane.

Flying is a dynamic environment requiring considerable judgment and intervention beyond the capability of technology. Members of the Airline Industrial Relations Conference need to dispatch with the NTSB Go Team so they could see first hand the true fruits of their labor. The severed body parts and blood splattered airplane wreckage. The stench of burned human flesh and charred remains at the crash site of Delta Comair 5191 in Lexington, Kentucky. They should be required to console the loved ones of those who were killed. Only Airline Industrial Relations Conference members would attempt to quantify why such a hull loss is acceptable. Air Conference members should be held accountable for manslaughter, or if they fully understand what they have done, murder. Safety of the flying public needs to take priority over trying to staff airline cockpits with the cheapest human resources the industry can find. The Simpson’s is just a cartoon.
The leaders of the airline industry have won and the flying public has lost. And it was all for what? $5.

[harry the cod]

Sheiky

$200k a year, tax free for a junior skipper (living out) is what you'll get at EK. This excludes provident fund contributions and education allowance.

I think you need to post this diatribe on the North American forum mate, not here.

Harry

Mod. This isn't going anywhere.

[Wizofoz]

Sheiky,

The nearest you've ever come to a lucid, relevant post.

Thing is, as Harry pointed out, it has nothing to do in isolation wth EK.

There could not be a more pointed example of how your blinkered, obsessive hatred of EK manifests itself.

Like your rant of Fuel Policy you look at an industry wide trend and assume it somehow makes EK the playground of the Devil.

Have you left the airline industry altogether? If not, does any of what you have written not also apply to your new employer? The fact that a lot of what you write is true is why I CAME to EK and intend to stay, and why EK has no shortage of qualified applicants.

Why not post this in the general Terms and Conditions forum, where it would be relevant and thought provoking, rather than here where it will be dismissed as another of your psychotic rants against Emirates?

[Panther 88]

Whoa there Harry. $200K with living "out" allowance? No way.....that is a long way off for a five year skipper here. And since you equated it "$", now way is that tax free. If you do have citizenship from a country that does not take those living abroad, lucky you. So here are some figure trying to equate apples to apples. Take a five year 777 skipper (would never happen) at the following airlines flying 95 hours per month. Of course no factoring. And also the "man" himself said we are the most profitable pax airline in the world.

American (194/hr) 221,160
DAL (200/hr) 228,00
FedEx (227/hr) 258,780

Again, that is at five year pay. If you look at a more reasonable year time frame of 12-15 years for said skipper, EKs pay still falls way short. Those airlines run around $275+ a year. It's not like we are some startup, struggling to get a foothold.

But tell us guys, where was sheiky wrong in his manifesto? No need to blame the messenger.

[Wizofoz]

Panth-

5th year captain.

Base 36400/mth
flight pay for 85 hours 5500

Take home 41900/mth= 502800.
Utilities = 160 000

Total 662800= 181 000.

No, not 200K but include even a little productivity or bonus (I've averaged 5.2 wks) and it's pretty close.

Now, how long has that Fed Ex guy been in Fed Ex to become a 5 year Captain, and how much does the company pay towards his childrens education?

Anyway, read our responses. I totally agree with Sheiky, but don't see why he's posted it in the ME forum with a specific reference to EK. Is he saying the quality of applicant at EK is being eroded? Fact is, because of exactley what he is saying, we are getting great applicants as they are fleeing the appaling pay and conditions else-where (INCLUDING US majors) to come here!

[Oblaaspop]

Panther,

What happens to those skippers in the States with hourly flight pay when they go on leave/break a leg/ or need some time off to go through a divorce?

Your figures are based on doing a 95hr month EVERY MONTH of the year..... Even you can see that this is not realistic surely?

Also, you need to apply tax to your figures........ Yes yes yes, I know the 'septics' pay a SMALL amount of 'expat tax', but its not the same level as that back home.

In terms of career earnings, a 29 year old CRJ Skipper joining EK from a US Airline, getting his command by his mid to late 30's will, in real terms, have earned far more than a DAL/United skipper by the time they both turn 60!

[Panther 88]

To certain extent, you guys are correct. And it is tough to equate the pay of a 5 year 777 captain here and it never happening at a legacy carrier. My point was and is still, the money for 777 (wide body) skippers is better elsewhere. And it is individual specific, in that if you don't have to pay ANY taxes-good. If you are in your 30s or 40s flying 777/330 skipper, even better. Don't want to get into the argument of union protection, safety culture, reporting etc., flying on a razors edge--been said before. And you're right 95 hours a month is a bit unrealistic, until you add in overtime and duty rigs and credit time and of course no such animal as factoring.

Most of the carriers have short term and long term disability payments for said life difficulties. And we shouldn't get into perks such as jump seat, free unlimited travel etc. My point was that the pay here (including the extras) falls short for the "most profitable passenger airline in the world". And yes I did forget to include the bonus we "always" get. Adequate, yes. But Sheiky's point was (and probably should be posted elsewhere) is that compared to 35 years ago, our pay has fallen way off ( but then what career hasn't). Today's pay should be in the range of $30,000 a month to be equal to what similar flying was in the 70s.

[Wizofoz]

Panth,

Yes it should, but the reality is that we live in a much different world and a MUCH different industry than 35yrs ago. Regulation, national carriers and a much higher public perception of the job were how it was.

Most pilots I know tend to be free market capitalists about just about everything- EXCEPT their own renumeration, in which case they suddenly seem to embrace left-wing unionist ideals in a big hurry! Supply and demand is inevitable and artificially rigging a market only lasts so long- ask the guys in the US who've lost their pensions AND their investments about that!!

And Panth, surely it occurs to yo that Emirates is the most profitable airline in the world BECAUSE it keeps a lid on it's labour costs!!

[harry the cod]

I've just done the maths again. Took my last 12 months pay, added them together and added the 160K live out allowance. Came to 726,660 dhs. That comes to $198k. Granted it did include the profit share but that was hardly stratospheric, was it!

I don't pay tax on this but at 'home' this figure would have to be increased to around 300k to get the same net salary once tax is taken into account. If I also include the childs schooling allowance, that takes it to $330k. Company provident fund contributions add another $15k a year into my pocket and then there's the transport saving by not having a second car..........Oh, and did I mention the medical cover....:hmm:

Anyway, aren't we missing the point of Sheiky's letter or was it a cunning plan in his usual attempt to start a bit of in house aggro?

Harry

[waldorfin]

Basic 43000
15% 6450
flight pay 4500
Utilities 15000
2 kids at school 9000

77950
or 21200 $

Add to that TRE and bonuses and a 35% tax bracket and jeez it aint that bad!!

[pool]

To be fair you have to forget about the schooling allowance. In most civilised countries schools are for free (paid by tax) with at least equal quality.
Then you have to mention the municipality tax on the property (so much for tax free) which might come to 5 o/oo.
Then you have to add the community fee, even in the ranches or meadows nothing's for free ....
Then add the difference in TV and mobile charges. They generally go in the order of tripple for a quarter of performance.

You see, it's a double edged sword. Comparing is difficult.
But to generalise that you make more money here is singing the managements song (are you that self deceptive?). To say we're in hell here is just as Oprah like.

If you can bear it, it's not too bad as a skipper. As a FO it's hard and if the wifey hates it, it will cost you a fortune.

(by the way, agree with sheikey)

[harry the cod]

Pool

I also hear what you say and agree with some although if you're to compare it with Oz or the UK, there's plenty of tax issues on sundries too.

I disagree about the schooling though. Yes schooling is free but the quality is highly variable and depends hugely on geographic location, particularly in the UK. By using the EK education allowance, I can afford to send my children to a private school in France, Oz, UK or wherever. I couldn't afford to do that comfortably working for my last outfit!

It may not be cash in the pocket, but at least it isn't coming out of the pocket. To ignore it, therefore, would be wrong.

Harry

[sheikmyarse]

Airfrance B747 P1 24000 euro net salary x 14th months plus for life real pension
social benefit ( parental leave, first world quality free healthcare, free schooling for kids including university etc etc). And I don't factor the priceless fact of living in civilization and democracy with a real secular legal system and a society around not like in fake Neverland.
Factoring into your salary housing allowance and schooling it is just ridicolous.
90 per cent take company villas, you don't have many options and those who did not well... many are still licking their wounds.
As far as I know a 5 years seniority P1 still makes around 8000 euros per month that is 1/3 of that period. If you want to convince your self differently....go ahead. This is how Emirates is making billions.

[Wizofoz]

Cool!!!

Where do I apply to become an Air France B747 P1???

[nolimitholdem]

Is there any way to assess the cost of giving the best years of your life to an artificial, ugly, shallow, wasteful, stupid-minded place surrounded by artificial, ugly, shallow, wasteful, stupid-minded people?

Just wonderin'.

I mean, surely that's gotta be worth a coupla bucks. :}

[harry the cod]

So sheiky, lets pick an established, highly unionised airline, one of the highest paid in the World, then say how crap EK is.

Nah, it just doesn't work cause it's highly unrealistic. As is your argument. 24,000 euro net per month......you sure? Is that for a 4 year P1 or 24 year P1? As for 'Life real pension', whatever that means, no such thing these days as pension for life. Have you not been watching the TV recently? All those burning cars, strikes, marching with banners and so on. Maybe you're just accustomed to it, after all, it seems to happen almost yearly there! France is a mess and faces a difficult decade. Good schools? Mmm...have you spoken to many French people recently and heard how inner city immigration is affecting tradition and standards of education. If you have, you'll have realised they have a serious problem on their hands. Other European Countries are just as bad.

I paid almost 300,000 euro for a villa in Spain 9 years ago. 2 years ago I was advised that the government have the right to take it back....for free. Some cock and bull about land rights for locals. 3 lawyers and 27,000 euros later, I'm still no further forward. It has been valued at over 500,000 even after the downturn. Nice little earner, but not for me. Civilised and democratic society?

Look mate, sorry it didn't work out for you here. I and the majority of guys here don't need to convince ourselves of anything. We get a good salary, high standard of living and accept the place for what it is. Most make the best of it and those are the people who spend less time on here than you and I. Those that don't, leave. There's good and bad everywhere in this World so we all take a decision to do what's best for each of our own circumstances at the time.

Isn't it time you left your vitriolic posts behind you and just got on with your life? Your hatred towards EK and those that live and work here is bordering on obsessive.

Au revoir

Harry

[BYMONEK]

nolimitholdem

I don't know but it is the very reason why I left the UK! :E

Harry

Could have been worse.....you could have 'invested' (don't you just love that word) in an off plan Nakheel property! :O If you fancy a swap, just give me a call. 5 to 2 odds you get your money before me! :uhoh:

[Wizofoz]

NLH,

No, none.

There is NO WAY that ANY amount of money (or "tail") could make staying here worthwhile.

Leaving here and going back to even a job slinging hamburgers in McDonalds is the right thing to do.

You'd be a FOOL to stay here no matter how limited the opertunities back home, and any intelligent person would have his resignation in tommorrow.

Don't you agree?

[break dancer]

Wow, DXB must be full complete nincompoops as there aren't too many resignations going in.....

It's horses for course as has been said on this forum numerous times. It works for some families and not for others. To say that all the people who stay here are stupid.....well that in itself is a stupid comment.

Sure, it's difficult to know if it will work for you and with the huge disruption to the family of moving - if it doesn't work out there will always be some animosity. Just don't vent it here as there are plenty of people that actually like living in Dxb. We just steer well clear of the negative a-holes that try to justify hating the place.

[BYMONEK]

xerox25

Surely you mean 25,000 gross...... and then they pay their taxes themselves! Net implies something has been taken off and I doubt even an AF 380 skipper would get that amount after tax.......or does he?:eek:

As for the train drivers, I think you've given us a very clear answer as to why the Country is in the state it is!

[BigGeordie]

So if I joined Air France today how long do you think I'd have to wait to be a 380 Captain?

[ekpilot]

EK pilots are underpaid for the amount of work.

Undeniable fact :rolleyes: It's 2010 after all.

Keep Discovering :ok:

[maddog62]

Sheiky,

The nearest you've ever come to a lucid, relevant post.

An excellent post Sheik no matter where its posted

shouldn't people that just copy and paste somebody else's work say so, instead of taking the credit?

Expectations, and how to save $5 on an airline ticket - Jetcareers (http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/53768-expectations-how-save-5-airline-ticket.html)

mad

[CS-CCO]

BUSTED! :p

[Wizofoz]

Yeah,

I THOUGHT it seemed strangely lucid for it to have been written by Sheikmyarse.

[BYMONEK]

xerox25

Gradually we move towards the truth. Now that we've ascertained that the figure quoted is before tax, can you now confirm that the equivalent of only one months salary is paid in tax? :suspect:

Even taking a 12 month salary, not the 14 stated, that would imply an income tax rate of just over 8%. 14 months salary takes that down to 7%. I'm not familiar with the tax system but either figure seems a rediculously low amount for 'income' tax. And as many have stated here already, this position represents less than 5% of the pilot workforce. 50% of our pilots can achieve a good salary within around 4 years or so. What's an AF first year skipper on and how long would he have done in the right seat before he gets there?

Regarding state of the UK, yes, well aware thanks. That's why I don't live there. Not going to turn this into a UK/France dick waving competition. I'd only end up talking about Nelson and how small Napolean was.......:E

At least the frogs go out on the street and make some noise.....the roast beef just complain, roll over and carry on. I guess the next 5 years or so will decide which response was correct!

[RjAgCR]

It's all relative... I fly a 320 bus FO for only $2550/month before tax ... substract 13-15% average tax ... :{ for some people EY,EK, etc have slavery schedules and s""t salary but for others like me it's almost 3 times what we make for the same amount of work (last month schedule 84 hrs, actual 94 hrs flown) and on top of that... TAX FREE ... :cool:

Some don't have the option to work for AF,UPS,FEDEX or SW and EK or EY when compared to those top airlines might have a low pay salary but are heaven salaries for people used to way less pay ...


By the way ... combo is number 2 @ McDonald's is the best!! :ok: