RAF Offr seniority over RAuxAF Offr of same rank: no more?

[wilf_san]

I had always understood that it was the case that (irrespective of the obvious senority afforded to an individual Officer by their rank above those of lower rank, and quite seperate from issues of time-in-rank etc), a regular RAF Officer had direct seniority over an RAuxAF Officer holding the same rank.

That understanding was imparted to me a number of decades ago, and I'm interested to find-out whether that is now no longer the case.

That is: with the substantial increase in field deployments and general use of the active reserves as individual infills (and the expansion of ROIT to become a meangful mini-IOT) has RAF/RAuxAF Officer respective seniority now become formally equalised within QRs?

wilf_san

[ZH875]

Does it matter?

If an Officer is in a position of authority, it doesn't matter a fig if he is senior or not to his equal rank colleagues.

Are you one of the "I wear my rank on my pyjamas" brigade?

[StopStart]

As the man said, what on earth does it matter?

If you're a regular and have to "pull rank" on an equivalent rank oggie then you probably need a bit of a chat with yourself.

If you're an oggie and a regular of equivalent rank tells you he outranks you tell him to do one. After you've finished pissing yourself laughing at his insecurities.
:rolleyes:

[Jimlad1]

I'm a serving reservist (from another service), currently deployed in HERRICK. My first thought on reading your question was simple 'what the hell does it matter?'

If you are so insecure in your own position that you feel the need to try to assert seniority over someone of any service for any reason, then I would suggest there is a serious problem.

I cannot think of a single good reason why anyone would need this sort of thing clarified.

[iRaven]

Seniority between the same rank counted at Rorke's Drift - Lt Bromhead and Lt Chard's senior officer, Major Spalding, needed to know:

"Early in the morning of Wednesday, 22nd January, 1879, Chard sought permission from Major Spalding to go to Isandlwana to clarify the matter. Shortly after eight o'clock Chard rode into the camp, his men were following behind in a wagon. The camp was alive with excitement, Zulus had been sighted on the Nquthu Plateau to the left front of the camp, and the troops were forming-up in readiness. Chard was informed his men were to be attached to the Column.

However, he was required to return to Rorke's Drift and entrench the position overlooking the ponts on the Natal bank. Accordingly, Chard rode back along the track towards Rorke's Drift; here he encountered Durnford at the head of his part-column moving up to Isandlwana. Chard acquainted his fellow Royal Engineer with the intelligence regarding the presence of Zulus on the Nquthu Plateau. Chard's sappers had fallen in with the mainly mounted force, he ordered his Corporal and three Sappers off of the wagon and gave them orders to join the force at Isandlwana. Then he ordered his batman, Driver Robson and a mixed-race wagon driver to turn the wagon, which contained tools, and return with him to Rorke's Drift in order to entrench the position. Upon his return to the mission-station Chard reported to Spalding.

As yet Captain Rainforth's 'G' Company, 1st/24th, had not arrived. Unbeknown to Spalding 'D' Company, 1st/24th had been delayed by bad weather en-route, and had not reached Helpmekaar Spalding was concerned as to the whereabouts of Rainforth's men and penned a camp order deploying one N.C.O. and six other-ranks as a pont guard. This small number were be augmented by fifty of Stevenson's N.N.C. Having done so he decided to ride to Helpmekaar and ascertain the delay of the reinforcements. Almost as an afterthought he consulted a copy of the Army List, to establish who would command the post in his absence. The command devolved to Chard, whose seniority pre-dated Bromhead's by three years. This done Spalding rode out, and with it him went his chance of military glory."

So you never know...

[Pontius Navigator]

I read up on this recently, and it does matter as Raven said. I am trying to remember if there is a get-out clause.

Essentially an officer of the RAF Reserve takes precedents over more junior ranks in the RAF and RAF Reserve, and probably the RAuxAF but below that of any officer of the same rank in the RAF.

It is not unusual for the officer in the RAFR to have far more service and experience than an officer of the same rank in the RAF for instance some fg off VRT officers previously served as ACM in the RAF.

Where an officer in the RAF is placed in command he may have far fewer years seniority than other officers in the RAFR and therefore the clause in QRs applies and gives him the authority of command.

In the Bromhead case, where a squadron is commanded by an officer of less seniority than other officers of senior rank then he may only exercise that command if specifically appointed. Where it has been indicated that he is in command but that command has not been promulgated in orders then things become interesting.

This happened on 201 many years ago. By careful management all senior officers were detachced and the rump of the squadron was left in the care of a relatively junior flt lt. Although he was a captain he was fairly new to maritime. The senior flt lt held a meeting (shades of a POW camp) and it was agreed that we would accept his orders while at the same time reserving the right to dissent.

Insecurity has nothing to do with it; it is all to do with who stops the buck.

PS,

I was attached to a dark blue unit a number of times and they had an interesting take on the issue. The unit comprised 9 lt cdr and one lt. Without exception they were Tom, Dick and Harry (or Claude and Eustance if you prefer) except for the lt cdr who was the boss. He alone was SIR.

[Wrathmonk]

Wow - extreme trivia. Perhaps if we had additional stripes on our forearms we could show how many years seniority we all had (some PA spine flt lts would need sleeve extensions:E).

On a slight tangent two (genuine) questions about the Navy and their seniority protocols - is it true that the captain of a Navy aircraft is the most senior person on board, regardless of their position and/or experience? And, when deciding on which ship salutes which as they pass, is the decision based purely on the Captain's seniority or is their a pecking order in class of ship as well? As I said, genuine questions - I'm sure google would be my friend but ....

[sidewayspeak]

I think that a system needs to be devised to differentiate who has seniority amongst the same rank - reservist or not. I object to having to agree with someone of the same rank who is clearly not as able as me, or amusing or good at the crossword.

I propose that it should be based around something simple and easy to distinguish. I therefore suggest that seniority amongst equal ranks should be based upon the amount of hair on one's head. That way all those baldys who are folically challenged should have to do as I damm well tell them, me being the proud owner of a full thatch. What say you good sirs? :rolleyes:

[alfred_the_great]

Solely on the seniority of the CO. Which is published on the Bridge Card so everyone knows.

The CO is the CO, and all responsibility lies with him - the presence of an Admiral does not relieve him of that, and never will.

[Pontius Navigator]

sideway, I know what you mean :)

However many years ago there were two gp capt. Now by definition one was senior to the other.

One was Gp Capt Bomber and the other was OC Waddo. Naturally the man at Command was 'senior' as he was responsible for operations at 12 or so bomber bases.

Then in the order of things they were posted and their roles reversed. Suffice to say, OC Waddo won both contests :)

[Tourist]

Wrathmonk.

No, the Captain is not the most senior, but he is in charge of everyone on board. I hope that helps

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I therefore suggest that seniority amongst equal ranks should be based upon the amount of hair on one's head.

I think you may hear from Beagle in the near future.

[Union Jack]

And, when deciding on which ship salutes which as they pass, is the decision based purely on the Captain's seniority or is there a pecking order in class of ship as well?

To amplify Alfred's response to Wrathmonk's question, the presence of a senior officer on board a warship, provided he is flying either his flag, or his broad pendant in the case of a Commodore, will obviously trump the seniority of the commanding officer in terms of compliments being paid by other ships. Responsibility for the flagship, or senior ship in the case of a Commodore, remains with the Flag Captain or commanding officer respectively, but it is a wise man who keeps his senior officer informed of his intentions where and when it is appropriate. Curiously enough, when a flagship, or senior ship, sails is one of the few occasions when a senior officer calls a junior officer "Sir", as in the example "Will you get the flagship under way, Sir".

Taking up PN's PS, I recall one patrol submarine in which every one of the officers was a Lieutenant, from the Captain to the Fifth Hand, but there was no doubt who was the Boss ....:ok:

[lomapaseo]

When the chips are down and all cards played it is important to know who won since in that case there can be only one winner , (IRaven's Rorke's Drift analogy).

Us colonials had to sort that out the day Regan was shot.

[top_cover]

Isn't it true that VRT officers revert to the rank of Fg Off in times of national crisis? (not sure what that crisis would be). I am talking about an awful lot of ATC Officers who do actually hold a commission. So in the interim, what seniority do they hold??

[teeteringhead]

top_cover

All VR(T) Officers, whether supporting ATC, CCF, VGS or AEF are only substantive Fg Offs. Any other rank they wear is acting, which may be - according to circumstance - paid or unpaid.

Sadly, we no longer have a proper Air Force List, in which the matter was clear.

[Jimlad1]

"
Isn't it true that VRT officers revert to the rank of Fg Off in times of national crisis? (not sure what that crisis would be). I am talking about an awful lot of ATC Officers who do actually hold a commission. So in the interim, what seniority do they hold??"

While the reversion to rank may have been the case in the past, today there are no plans at all to use cadet officers as backfills for crises. While you occasionally here of terribly enthusiastic VRT or other cadet officers speculate what their war role may be, it is absolutely the case that the MOD has no plans at all to even think about using them in this way.

This should in no way detract from the incredible work that all of those individuals who work in support of the cadet movement do though, it is quite literally life changing for many of those who they mentor and support.

[Rossian]

.....I always thought that date of commissioning (from the aforesaid AFL) supplied the answer to the question "Who is senior?". RN officers of a certain type always seemed to walk around with a copy of the Navy list and were very picky about it. Fortunately I never encountered the situation in all my time in the service.

Tetters, are you saying there isn't even an on-line version (even on the intranet)? Does seem odd!

The Ancient Mariner

[Pontius Navigator]

Rossarian, there is only an online version. This has a number of shortfalls in that civil servant who hold RAFR commissions but are paid at CS rates do not feature. They were trying to address this but it was a data gathering issue.

While an RAFR officer may also be a civil servant, and different from a reservist on FTRS terms, they still rank in seniority within the RAFR and the RAF and their omission from the AFL could cause issues not least of identity :)

[Yellow Sun]

Isn't it true that VRT officers revert to the rank of Fg Off in times of national crisis? (not sure what that crisis would be). I am talking about an awful lot of ATC Officers who do actually hold a commission. So in the interim, what seniority do they hold??

No it isn't true, they have no callout liability or emergency role. Long ago when a large proportion of Air Training Corps (ATC) officers had service experience a number of them may have had a reserve commitment; this was separate from their ATC role; but even then there was no general plan for employment of ATC officers.

The ATC, and the other cadet forces, do a wonderful job as service funded youth organisations. That however is what they are, not pre-service training organisations; that ceased circa. 1961 with the demise of National Service; not recruiting organisations.

As for the subject raised by the OP, if you are RN then look at the Bridge Card, otherwise "who cares".

YS

[bobward]

I imagine this thread would have been of great interest to the gentlemen driving a certain submarine last Friday.......
:{:*

[Beancountercymru]

Ist Naval Officer "You have control..."

2nd Naval Officer "No, you have control"

1st Naval Officer "No,no, you have control"

At which point in best Navy Lark tradition Leading Seaman Goldstein would announce the collision

(note to younger readers The Navy Lark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Navy_Lark) )

[Tankertrashnav]

Cue for oft-repeated tale of the Earl of Bandon, (Paddy Bandon) who eventually made ACM. Lifted from Wiki:


There were a number of anecdotes told about the Earl, perhaps the most repeated was the occasion that he and several of his fellow pilots wearing grubby and disheveled flight dress, straight after combat flights, entered the Shepheard's Hotel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepheard%27s_Hotel) in Cairo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo) used as an officers’ mess during 1942. An immaculately dressed army officer snootily told him, "I am Major (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_(United_Kingdom)) the Honourable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Honourable) (A N Other), Assistant Provost Marshal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistant_Provost_Marshal). You and your men are improperly dressed and must leave." The Earl replied, "I am Group Captain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Captain) the Earl of Bandon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Bandon) and therefore outrank you on both counts. Now do push off, there's a good chap."

Although in the version I heard, Bandon said "and that's you f***ed on both counts..."

[teeteringhead]

Rossian
Teeters, are you saying there isn't even an on-line version (even on the intranet)? Does seem odd! ... the on-line version (yes, intranet) which calls itself the Air Force List is in fact only a list of posts and incumbents.

And only regular officers, so no WOs, no RAuXAF, no VR(T), no RAFR (of its various sorts) no Air Attaches, no Royal ADCs etc etc etc :(

[Pontius Navigator]

and no retired list so no easy way to out a Walt.