New Policy For EK Clinic Docs re: FATIGUE

[nolimitholdem]

hmmm...

As this policy has only been handed to the doctors, and of course not communicated to the pilots, the details are still a bit hazy. But the gist of it...

Apparently due to concern over the high amount of fatigue reporting going on, it has been decreed that doctors now may mandate a maximum of two days off due to fatigue. Previously, if one reported "SKF" ("Sick - Fatigued") and reported to the clinic, a doctor could give (for example) a week or more off to recover.

Going forward, they will now be only able to prescribe two days as fatigue recovery. If more is required it is to be notated as regular sick leave.

How this will work in practice I have no idea. After the two days you (attempt to) make another appointment at the clinic to be treated for....???

Pure smoke and mirrors...moving something from one ledger to another for appearances sake. And still they claim legitimacy with their financial reporting...

[5star]

Heard the same thing and surely a lot of doctors have protested. But at the end of the day : they are in the same boat as us. Don't like it, f...... off!

Without a hull loss, nothing is gonna change....

:=

[777boyindubai]

The docs are VERY unhappy about this. This stupidity came from the VP of Aviation medicine Dr. FR. She has been asked by the other docs to provide clinical evidence and is struggling to do so. Please write to your fleet managers and ask them what the evidence is. They don't have any. If you let this stand, they will screw you more. EK don't care about a hull loss. :ugh:

To people thinking of applying to EK, please think about this thread and consider the arbitrary basis of two days. With ZERO supporting evidence.

[Plank Cap]

This may well be the new case, but remember folks as a licence holder you are not allowed to operate, and the company may not make you operate, if you have reason to believe you are ''suffering, or likely to suffer while flying, from a level of fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aeroplane or of its occupants''.

To my way of thinking, there's only one person who can determine that.

Stay strong folks, ASR every fatigue event and if necessary the GCAA would just love to hear from you via their ROSI (Report of Safety Information) system. It's all available on line.

[Murrenfan]

I wish I'm wrong but I doubt GCAA will do anything to prevent this. At the end of the day, it's all family business...:}
Mfan

[southflyer]

https://titan-server.arc.nasa.gov/HTML_ERS/general.html

[Xonirot]

777indubaiboy, some points regarding your post:

"This stupidity came from the VP of Aviation medicine Dr. FR."

1. Complete your pre-slander checklist. I think you'll find that decisions such as these are made at a much higher pay grade than VP, and aren't even initiated in the medical department.

She has been asked by the other docs to provide clinical evidence and is struggling to do so.""

2. Try to make sense. Clinical evidence of what?

"Please write to your fleet managers and ask them what the evidence is. They don't have any."

3. See point 2.

Leaving aside your flawed post; try to read between the lines; For the purposes of statistical recording the important trigger is the number of SKF occurrences, rather than the duration of the SKF.

I suspect in practical terms there won't be much difference to the way the docs treat fatigue - you will get your 2 days SKF, then the appropriate number of SK days after that.

I agree with nolimitholdem, smoke and mirrors or just another consequence of having too few pilots and trying to make the numbers fit.

Remain calm.

[777boyindubai]

1. Complete your pre-slander checklist. I think you'll find that decisions such as these are made at a much higher pay grade than VP, and aren't even initiated in the medical department.

FR is a doctor. As such she knows that her first concern is to her patients. Of course this came from above. But, she MUST and should put the care and well being of a guy or girl who is going to fly 300+ people to whatever destination. None of the other doctors agree with the policy.

She has been asked by the other docs to provide clinical evidence and is struggling to do so.""

2. Try to make sense. Clinical evidence of what?

Clinical evidence that all cases can recover in 48 hours. There isn't any.

You are right about the statistical element. I agree fully.

Sorry for the "flawed" post.

[777boyindubai]

I leave it to others to judge if the policy of two days SKL is stupidity or not. It is not slander. She is implementing a policy that is wrong.

Doctors, no more than pilots, adhere to professional standards. Ultimitely, the Commander makes the decisions in the cockpit. The Dr. in the clinic.
These decisions are based on training, knowledge and judgement.

Take 2 days SKL and then review for say another 2 days SKL might be a sensible policy. Fatigue is a MASSIVE issue at EK. It won't go away with this 2 days' SKL nonsense.

The core issues are not being addressed AGAIN :ugh:

[Fellowship of the drink]

I don't think this policy came from her.

I am not trying to defend her but I reckon it came from AAR.

I met the lady concerned on a fatigue issue, she came across as someone who is very aware of the problems of fatigue and want's to help as long as it doesn't rock the boat or casts her in a bad light with AAR. It puzzles me that her husband is also a pilot and she can sleep well at night knowing that his life and career depends on her identifying and relaying the fatigue issues to AAR, whether he is interested or not.

FR, if you can't handle the pressure of your job then leave (not being personal but I don't see why VPs are exempt from the IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, LEAVE clause)

[Xonirot]

Gentlemen.

The way I see this issue is that it is an 'administrative' policy.

There is no policy that is stating that fatigue will be cured by a 48hr 'rest' - simply that the recording of SKF is limited to a 48hr period.

At the end of the day the tools in your 'toolbox' to deal with fatigue are readily available;

- Do not fly if you are fatigued.
- If you suffer a fatigue related safety issue, write an ASR.

Most companies management structures are not democratic, EK obviously falls into this category and clearly does not require a vote to decide policies (unfortunately!).

I agree with Fellowship - this comes back to AAR who is trying to cover himself for the shortage of pilots he has created by recruitment screw ups and creating a negative image of EK as a place to work...

[Kapitanleutnant]

Has anyone actually seen this in writing anywhere? I've not and wondered if I missed an FCI or some such......

Thanks gents

K

[acegreaser]

I'm on the way to EK clininc now for my 2 days SKF :ugh::ugh: :zzz::zzz:

Before I go, are you subjected to some kind of fatigue analysis if you were to complain of fatigue when you visit the doctor?

[Chewthecrude]

It's not an FCI it's an e mail to the doctors of which many are under great pressure to comply.

The doctors are not in agreement with it. Well all but one are not!

[kingpost]

Ouch, so it's written in an email, that's the worst thing anyone can do is put it in writing!!

[Schibulsky]

I don't know if there is a difference for you flying guys, but I did the "fatigue tour" to the doc after they changed the shift pattern at the OCC.
You'll get the usual interview where you tell him all the symptoms you have.
After giving me the sick certificate for fatigue, the doc referred me to the American Hospital for check up with a specialist.
Got a nice sleeping monitor that almost strangled me at night :uhoh:
Anyway, I called certified sick due to fatigue for every single early shift in that month. :E but stopped that after Al Retard changed the pattern back.
I dont know if that caused the change of his mind but I would highly suggest for you pilots to do a similar approach ;)
Needless to say I put in my resignation, also because of that kind of crap. But the impotent rage of AAR, cause he couldn't do anything against a fatigued employee backed by the docs, was priceless!! :p
P.S hope the docs still have the balls to back you up.:ok:

[777boyindubai]

Heard Dr. F was not a happy bunny to find that several of the docs (and nurses) have been chatting about her. She said that there was no evidence to show that there was any difference between having one week or two days sick leave due to fatigue. This directive did come from AAR. Enjoy your holiday Dr. F!

[nolimitholdem]

Is FR not married to a pilot?

WTF, over?! :confused:

Well, hopefully she can get out of dodge before she has to be interviewed by whatever agency will be investigating the root causes of the inevitable smoking hole.

"Well, it SEEMED like giving them less time off due fatigue was a good idea. I mean, it came from AAR, who has zero medical qualifications or flying experience. So why not?!"

[777boyindubai]

FR is indeed married to a pilot. I wonder what the Aus Medical Council will have to say when they hear about the fatigue issue. :=

[donpizmeov]

777 Boy,

If the Docs and nursers can only talk behind FRs back about this issue, they must either: not care about it: think that its not an issue: or be too gutless to confront a safety issue if they think that's the case. It will be the doc signing the medical, not FR that will be asked questions.

You truly are carrying on like an old woman (sorry to be offending old lady's here) with your bits of scandalous gossip.

Yes I agree that the roster builds promote fatigue when there is no need for them to do so. They are crap!! And they are built this way on purpose, that's where the problem is or the core issue here that you refer to isn't it? Shouldn't this be the thing you spend your energy trying to address, or will you to be like one of these DOCs or Nursers you refer to and only talk behind peoples backs about issues? To blame anything on the clinic is confusing tails with dogs mate.

The OMA states that if you are not fit to operate, you don't operate. Does it matter if its SK or SKF? Really?

Do you really think the Aus medical council will give a ****e? Have you seen how many hours a resident works in a hospital non stop? In fact the AMA limits the numbers of specialists and doctors, to ensure their higher net worth. All the time knowing that the restricted numbers will cause these extra long shifts. Mate you aint seen greed until you have seen doctor or lawyer greed.

Keep recovering

The don

[White Knight]

Ha Don - you beat me to it:}:}:}

[dubaicrew]

Well Said Don.
Ps. A lot in this thread is pure slander, and unnecessary.
A bit unfair to bitch about Dr. FR, while safely hiding behind your Pprune nic name.

Why not send the lady an email? it might get you some better answers or a justification to the policy, if that indeed is what you are looking for.

DC

[777boyindubai]

Thanks for the comments. Loved the greed thing. Very rich coming from some of you. You talk about guts.....how many times have you stood up to Steely or AAR? :ugh: I have spoken to FR on numerous occasions about this and other things. If points like this are not raised with the Medical Board (in New Zealand, apparently) how will we ever know. Good luck with the greed and fatigue. They seem to go together for some of you :D

[donpizmeov]

777 Boy,

It would seem your beef is that FR has allegedly taken some decree from AAR (her boss of sorts) and implemented it. And this is considered bad.

At the same time the clinic Docs and Nurses have allegedly taken this same decree from FR (their boss of sorts) and are implementing it. And you consider this not as bad? Is that because they talk behind her back? Does that absolve them from blame?

Mate, the problem is not the clinic. Its several pay grades further up the line. Read my above post re rostering.

Take my above post, delete Australian medical board insert New Zealand, or whatever other country you wish to use.

The Don

[777boyindubai]

Don,

My point is this. I have been seen by FR in the clinic. She was great and I appreciated her care. The directive re 2 days came from AAR. Not from FR.
She is implementing this directive. But, surely, she should advise AAR and the clinic staff on the positives and negatives. The many doctors that I know in Aus practice clinical and evidence based medicine. What evidence is there that 2 days are enough? Has FR explained fatigue and its issues to AAR?
What are AAR's qualifications (Medical) for this directive. Fatigue is the biggest problem for all of us and I want to fly safely. I want a team of good people from EK on my side.
The first duty of a doctor is to care for their patients. I have great difficulty in seeing this exhibited here. I hope for the best and that FR will take heed of the points raised.
Finally, the Costa issue....it ain't the money but another cheap way of EK screwing us. All the pennies add up here......for their profits! :ugh:
Finally, finally, the comments about greed and Doctors and Lawyers. The docs get the same as an FO. The lawyers less. And the Captains.....well we all know what we earn :E
Maybe the points raised about FR were harsh. But there are important issues at stake for all of us. If we don't stand up, they will screw us more than they do now.
Happy Flying to all!:ok: