EK fuel letter

[bone]

Hi all,
Anybody else received the 'fuel letter' recently? Found it in my box the other day and curious about the anybodyelse's dealings with our 'award winning ' flt ops management about this.Apparently ,I am 'significantly' above the fleet average (the fleet average is about 900kg extra on top of the OFP ). I carry about 20mins extra for every sector inbound DXB and elsewhere as required ( about 30% of the time)

[Mister Warning]

When I resigned I changed my personal fuel policy to "tanker to max landing weight".
No letter.... :}

[LHR Rain]

And the management's point is......?
Who signs for the aircraft and whose arse is the first at the seen of the crash? Tell the bullies to stuff it!

[harry the cod]

Bone

Just curious. When you say you take an extra 20 mins as required, required by what exactly?

Yes, according to the CAR ops, we need to arrive into Dubai with fuel for destination plus minimum 20 minutes. Some guys will add another 20 mins onto whatever is the contingency, others add fuel to ensure the contingency totals 20 mins. Which one are you?

Either way, both are not required as we often have 20 mins anyway by having a destination alternate. Therein lies your 20 minutes. The requirement was placed into the Car ops for those operators arriving into Dubai who may not have clearly defined fuel policies such as ours and, therefore, little or no alternate fuel.

Harry

[Russell Kaymer]

2+ hours in the hold this morning into DXB. That extra 20 minutes sure sounds like a good idea now.

[skyvan]

Management have acknowledged that you are an above average Captain.

That is a good thing, right?

[Oblaaspop]

Contacted, I agree 100%:ok:

Why get to DXB at 11am or 8pm with 20 mins of extra gas only to be vectored straight in? Just curious as to your reasoning bone, not having a pop.....

[White Knight]

Agree 100% with Oblaas and Contacted - carry it if you NEED it, but why carry it if you don't? Even when it's busy in DXB you'll only get 2 turns at DESDI or BUBIN now that ATC have got to grips with the reduced landing separation... And it's no big deal to commit either... Just seems to me that some don't like the change of fuel policy but it works fine - same policy my last operator used!

And no-one's run out of gas there yet:D:D

[flycheaper]

Don't worry, this kind of love letters will become the rule as it is in Ryanair. There you can only take 300 kg extra without giving a serious explanation and when I say serious it must be serious. Also in FR there is a fuel league, based on real burn against plog burn, I can tell you that those pilots at the bottom of the league receive this kind of letters.
I guess as more and more Fr Jockey's are joining EK it will not chock them more than that.

[kiwi]

I believe that if an operator chooses to operate a minimum fuel policey, it shouldn't combine that with a fuel uplift policy that allow dispatch with a desrepancy in uplift of 5% up to 1000kgs less than what is required minimum to legally do the job as we do at EK.
I also believe Harry that you have decided to put your own spin on the UAE GCAA requirement to arrive into Dubai with 20 minutes holding fuel. I have read it and nowhere does it state this applies only to such and such operators. Under the defintions in the OMA I don't believe that on an international operation you can legally depart intending to commit to destination and therefore sufficent fuel including your contingency should be acceptable practise.
It's like the Australian holding advisory. If it didn't apply to us we'd always get straight through with no holding just like the African and American operators instead of holding just like all the other operators do.
I also defy anyone to accurately predict when a peek time will occur nowadays. I have held for considerable periods during what I would have historically considered offpeek on several occassions.
Committing to destination is a serious business. Sounds easy up till the point both runways get closed so RFS vehicals can gain access to aircraft under emergency or an aircraft spills fluid or parts on the runway and flows decrease accordingly.

[Guy D'ageradar]

Even when it's busy in DXB you'll only get 2 turns at DESDI or BUBIN now that ATC have got to grips with the reduced landing separation.

Which reduced landing separation is that then? We still work to the same vortex wake spacings which, in fact, means it's getting worse now as the 380s arrive, especially as they fly so much slower than everyone else! (I don't think I've EVER had one tell me they couldn't fly the standard speeds though) :D

[Payscale]

Some of you fellas are suffering from the Stockholm syndrome! If a captain feel he might need the extra 20 min, then it is his prerogative.
Contingency fuel is intended for use after the browser has been disconected. Not saved to hold over dxb. If you have saved it, well good on you.
No one looks at how much fuel one actually saves enroute by requesting directs and block climbs where possible.
The extra fuel he brought cost 4% per hour. Typically 25% of the uplift to carry it. So for 1 ton extra he will burn 250kg. It is very easy to save this fuel enroute, hence it cost the company nothing and the captain is happy. Whats the big deal?

[helen-damnation]

Folks,
There is a UAE AIC which states that no delay means upto 20 mins delay, same as the UK. Since it is written down and you are aware of it before departure, it CANNOT be part of your contingency which is for unforseen circumstances.
To my mind, that means you are rightly entitled to have 20 mins fuel over and above min reserve + dest'n alt + contingency planned at dest'n when you depart.
Personally, I look at the dest'n weather, time of day, enroute weather, whose FIRs and the amount of contingency I've been given. 600 kg at midnight or 06:00 is not enough.
Sensible additions seem to be acceptable, no letter for me so far :ooh:
At the end (or beginning) of the day, if you can reasonably justify the extra, throw the letter in the bin.

Either way, both are not required as we often have 20 mins anyway by having a destination alternate
HTC, I disagree.

[harry the cod]

Helen, KIWI and other like minded fellow aviators.

Every flight I do into Dubai, I will have 20 minutes available. That's because we have an alternate airport and we have the option of using that fuel should we decide to commit. If the weather is marginal or there is a very high likelyhood of delays, as a crew, we will decide what extra fuel to take. As the Captain, I will make the final decision on that. It really is that simple so I can't quite understand why so many of you have trouble understanding it.

Strange as it may seem to some, there are operators out there flying aircraft on different fuel policies to ours. Many of them are russian built and parked on the opposite side of the airfield! If we were following EK's previous fuel policy, then I can well understand the desire to carry the 20 minutes as extra. Our current policy has been designed to give the flexibility and final decision to the Captain on the day.

So use it!

Harry

[halas]

Don't worry about the letter Bone. Many others have received one.

If ever l get one, l know in the diary l keep of my flights, there will always be justification for extra fuel uplifted. And l reckon it would be a long shot that you would ever be called in to the office to explain your decision making on fuel.

Classic was two days ago. Operating from the far far east for arrival at 0500 in DXB and looking at the forecast, l added a reasonable extra contingency as there was NONE on the OFP. Got held below FL320 the whole way and used the whole frigging lot, but luckily the WX in DXB wasn't so bad.
The annoying part was opening the portal when l got home to confirm the flight hours, and there was an email from VPNC advising that extra fuel should be carried on flights arriving when l did, sent before the OFP was produced.
It's interesting that the VP sees extra fuel as beneficial, but there is no communication to those who may need to uplift it.

In the end it's all academic, as no-one knows whats going to happen, but you can make an educated guess.

halas

[ekwhistleblower]

For what it is worth I think it is an education issue. I certainly struggled with the concept when it was first introduced. Every time you land see how much fuel is left over final and you will know how much fuel was available for holding, I have never been within 15 minutes of final.

An A330 takes about 12/1300kgs to get from Desdi so no sh1t fuel from the hold to land is just under 4 tons. If you get to 4 tons in the hold with no sign of an approach; declare an emergency or divert, that is what the company expects.

Most aircraft, unless on a very short sector, actually land well above Final plus Alternate and have 30 plus minutes of holding fuel. Some guys though want to land with Final and Alt and have holding fuel too all after having committed. I cannot understand why anyone sticks on 5 or 6 mins of fuel, I generally do it in 30 minutes chunks at the front of the fog window and more at the other end. The best I have seen so far is a guy adding an extra ton from Melbourne of which only 400 Kgs would have been left on arrival.

[sheikmyarse]

I see lot of rocket scientist around. Please explain the commitment policy to general public of poor amateurs pilots. Well every body can read it on the FOM but I guess some regulatory body would like to know how it is actually used by the loyalist Ek drivers to push the limits, jeopardizing hundreds of lives, and to show their bravery and obedience to the oberfurher!!! Sieg Heil!

[helen-damnation]

It doesn't mean that you should expect 20 mins delay on every arrival.
Quite so, however, it also means you could get 20 mins delay on every flight.

harry

Yes, you literally will have 20 mins when you arrive. However, when you leave your departure airfield, how do you know that you will be able to commit or that you will have an EAT. If you don't, and I don't think that you can say that, then carrying the 20 mins extra is, IMHO, a reasonable justification.

Having said that, I use my experience and judgement to decide on the day. That's what I'm paid for.

Regards,
H-D

[helen-damnation]

So if you arrive at destination, are given "no delay" and you have min fuel, or even your massive 600kg contingency!

My point is: are you going to use 19 mins of fuel to hold if you can't be assured of landing at destination? Semantics I know, but I'm just making the point.

You might also note in the AIC:
The information concerning delays that is passed to the crew by the controller is the best available at the time and takes account of
the expected volume of traffic at the aeroplane’s estimated arrival time.

For the final time, I say again that I don't carry the 20 mins on every occasion. I do, however, believe that the way the AIC is written means you can justify the extra fuel if you want it.

[dustyprops]

Yeah, I'm onboard with Helen - d and those minded people. Harry, I just can't see how committing to dest before leaving the departure airport is sensible, you're asking to get caught out.
The company gives no prizes for he who carries the least fuel, and if they want to p1ss around with min cont. and dpp then they should expect people to add fuel.

[harry the cod]

Look, reading the posts here, I actually think we're pretty much agreed on 90%, the biggest agreement being that if you need more fuel on the day, take it. But, lets clear up the last 10% and probably the sticking point for most.

I never once said that you can commit before departure. You can't. What I said was that I will have 20 minutes because I have that fuel for my alternate. I comply with the fuel policy and I can legally depart for Dubai. That's a fact and at this stage has nothing to do with committing.

Now we arrive into Dubai. If I am given 'no delay', I know that I should have less than 20 minutes before cleared for approach. Then, in consultation with my colleague(s), decide if conditions are suitable for committing. This will be based on many factors including weather, number of runways, contingency fuel used, amount of alternate fuel etc. If they are, we advise ATC, stay at our destination and use some of the alternate fuel. I have committed twice before. No big deal. This is exactly what the fuel policy has been designed for

Now, if there is a further delay, and you're likely to land with final reserve, you declare a Mayday. God forbid we ever do though. If old sheiky gets to hear about it on the RT, we'll never hear the last of it from his nonsensical posts.

Perhaps it's also worth remembering that if you do decide to divert, and aircraft will, the Company does not ring you up and ask why. They know why and accept these rare occassions as a compromise for the majority of flights taking CFP fuel in normal conditions. Carrying an extra 1.5 tonnes per aircraft every time on a fleet this size adds up to a huge amount.

Harry

[acegreaser]

It's so assuring to know that EK pilots are not very sure of their Fuel Policy when it's the most important part of the flight.

I think we shouldn't be intimidated by letters from the company.

1st, we need to be sure of the policy and take what you really need and if it is justified. The days of taking 1 tonne extra just so to be comfortable is long gone. We fly in an airline. You are an airline Captain. Act like one and uplift fuel responsibly. Or not let's just fill her up to the top and let's go.

[ManaAdaSystem]

I'm a bit confused, how can you guys hold for two hours on 20 mins extra fuel?

[pitoss]

I think Harry is totally correct. With that said, depending on the time and WX, I do carry extra in order to give me more time before I commit, or to avoid arriving in my alternate with final reserve only. As an example, a KWI-DXB, arriving at peak time with poor WX, I would probably take some extra, because my contingency would be only 600Kg (5 min).

[Mr Angry from Purley]

This is a sign of the times and a fairly common practice across Europe for sure.
It might be a sign that Emirates has grown and expanded with some "legacy" crews who just "fill em up". Can't do that these days sorry:\

[dustyprops]

I don't see anyone saying they just "fill it up" anywhere, so the drama queens need to step down a bit. People put onboard exactly what they feel they need on the day, and that is exactly what a captain should do, otherwise he/she is straight out of their comfort zone. There is nothing heroic about taking min fuel, and acegreaser your comments like "we fly in an airline, you are a captain" blah blah blah is bollocks.

[Panther 88]

Carry what you think you need of course. However, looking at some old flight plans I keep when I land with less than 4.0 (Boeing) and some recent ones......the OFP flight plans you from Desdi to land on 30L to burn only 900 kgs. Nine out of ten times when arriving at the "push" times the Boeing will burn anywhere from 2.0 to 2.5. And this is after the holding or whatever. Next time check the fuel at Desdi and then see what it is on landing. Again, this is just at the high density times. On checking the arrival from Desdi to 12L, the standard flight plan is for 800 kgs. What do you think you're going to land with if the runway changes to 30?

Just a couple of thoughts. So right from the beginning, most flights will use up all of the contingency fuel, not to mention all flights going in the same direction usually on the same routes and getting flight planned altitudes can be a challenge.

[Pitch Up Authority]

It is really very simple. Contingency covers unexpected situations. For all the rest you need to carry the fuel. If you go to LHR at a certain time and day of wich you know it is reasonable to expect a delay then you have to carry the fuel. You can not use your contingency for that.

The seabreeze in DXB is very predictable .... so 30 L is what you take.

LVP simply take 30 min

NP simply take 30 min if vis is lower than MDH x 6 .... that is what you need to see the RWY from your MDH

OFP gives you a constant decent while reality is the opposit .... take some extra.

After every flight keep a copy of OFP and WX and reflect on your decision. Soon you will get very accurate. Make it a habit to bet with yourself what your landing fuel will be at the moment you decide your uplift.

[harry the cod]

Contacted

You are 100% correct. What it states is that aircraft must arrive with enough fuel to allow for up to 20 minutes, not an 'extra' 20 minutes. This is simply to allow for the 'no delay' scenario where aircraft will be expected to assume 'up to 20 minutes' without being given an ETA. Same as UK.

As I keep saying until i'm blue in the face, EK's fuel policy and that of many other operators covers that. Some airlines don't have alternate fuel, and it's for those airlines that the requirement was published. Some operators were arriving with destination fuel, a small amount of contingency and final reserves!

Reading all this, I have to agree with acegreaser's post. :sad:

Harry

[White Knight]

I'm a bit confused, how can you guys hold for two hours on 20 mins extra fuel?

You are confused:ugh::ugh::ugh: Let me explain - if it's foggy then carry loads of fuel. If it's 11am arrival and CAVOK forecast then why carry extra? Maybe you should re-read Harry's posts as he explains the 20 minutes in simple terms that even other pilots should be able to understand:p

Please explain the commitment policy to general public of poor amateurs pilots.

Maybe this says a lot about you:E It's really very simple and has been around for a lot longer then EK's adoption of this policy...

[falconeasydriver]

Thanks White Knight, finally someone has called a spade a spade.....

Come on guys its NOT that complicated..and yet why oh why do some choose to try to over-complicate a pretty bloody simple concept??

Fer fecks sake, we usually carry fuel for MCT anyway when its foggy..we operate to a 2 runway airport..theres another runway a couple of miles away..plus another..then another..:ugh: why all the ball-ache with committing to destination?
Sheeessh, anyone would think half of you get pucker twitch operating to Europe when theres a bit of fog or ice around..oh hang on a minute..you do!
FWIW, committing to destination has been around for a looooong time..its how things work in the London TMA fer fecks sake:ugh:

What would I know though, I'm a lowly F/O with no EK command exp

[ManaAdaSystem]

Thank you for your gentle words, Mr Knight.

DXB = 30 mins, more if wx bad. That is not very often.

LHR = 30 mins, 60 if forecast is bad. There is now way I'll ditch my alternate going into LHR. To get into that situation there would be major delays and I would not be comfortable to continue in the hold without diversion fuel. However, last time I had to hold for a long time, LON ATC asked all aircraft if they could hold for one hour. Yes = hold. No = Stanstead.

Then again, our commanders are authorized to carry the fuel we require, no questions asked.

[pool]

Then again, our commanders are authorized to carry the fuel we require, no questions asked

... only warning letters issued if you have to offload payload for necessary fuel. So much for commanders authority if one dirham goes down the bins ...

[ManaAdaSystem]

No warning letters either, but I don't work for EK.
Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[Trader]

pool---you shouldn't be offloading bags or pax anyway...well not unilaterally anyway. The simple solution is to call ops, tells them you need x amount of fuel and let THEM make the decisions!!

[sheikmyarse]

For some reason during an enroute check we find ourself a little short of fuel.
We check the weather at destination and the facilities available and if the wx is ok and certain paramaters are satisfied we continue to destination even if we will not have the alternate fuel. This is the way it is written not so clearly.
The opacity is there in order to make loyal and uncritical crew believe that such a　policy can be used instead as an escamotage to burn the alternate fuel in the holding and try to please the Oberfuhrer avoiding as much as possible going to alternates cause that costs money and Oberfurher needs a bonus for buying a new car to that cocksucker of his daughter and for the new golf club membership. Beside that he has still to maintain his mistress in Bangkok....
Such practice is simply ILLEGAL and already a few found them self in deep ****.
The 400 + plus people you carry they don`t give a **** about Dubai`s debts, your self serving attitude, your ****** up ego. They want to get safe at destination...or at an alternate. EK = Animal's Farm.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Sheikarse, you'll find the rule you are referring to in several other publications, JAR OPS among them. It's not a DXB exclusive.

[pool]

you shouldn't be offloading bags or pax anyway...well not unilaterally anyway. The simple solution is to call ops, tells them you need x amount of fuel and let THEM make the decision


well dear Trader, I don't know that particular story in all details, but .....

if you let THEM make the decision, then what's your fourth stripe for?
if their decision is no additional and you deem it necessary, what do you do?
you say you should not offload pax or bags, so you offload necessary fuel?

I know my questions are somewhat rhethoric, but it all runs down to what others pretended on earlier contributions: Who decides how much fuel has to be put on? Is it the CAA/GCAA, is it the company or is it finally the one who sits nervously on his back side in the steel tube itself when the dream team of ATC is on shift during peak?
If this whole thing starts getting ruled by statistics letters or warning letters, then safety takes a hit. I agree we should weed out the overcautious, but there's a constructive and educative way and there's unfortunately the EK way

[Trader]

pol--actually I agree with you --just should have worded my response more clearly!!

Basically, my idea is to pass the act of the decision onwords. In this example, if you need fuel you are going to take it but the decision to actually offload the bags/pax has to be made by the company which, I think, is fair enough. The co. says no to the offload then you give them the options---OK, if we don't have the fuel I don't feel comfortable and a diversion is likely. I would even talk personally SNMC and let them know that I WANT that fuel but the decision is theirs (maybe add that you will not be using discretion either).

This happened all summer with SFO and the co. elected for the tech stops. Their call. Where it gets frustrating is that the SFO flight can be planned with a tech stop and, with delays, the duty can go to 22 hours.

In any case, in most situation it works well to to give the guys in ops choices you are comfortable with and let them make the decision. If it ever comes back to you then you can say THEY made the call.

Of course, this can be done quite deviously as well :)

[White Knight]

This happened all summer with SFO

Well why bugger around with this 777 thingy? Just put a 345 on the route - it'll pick the payload up no problem... It's the kind of route it's designed to fly:cool:

[atiuta]

Shaky Ass,

How many times. Don't drink and post....

[Guy D'ageradar]

Can someone please confirm Emirates' policy regarding alternates?

I recently had a conversation with a captain from another locally based operator who stated that they declare the second dubai runway as an alternate. Boy was he surprised when he found out that, in the event of an accident, BOTH would be closed! (picture the landcruisers/patrols/mercs with blacked out windows, all over the airport).

[Pitch Up Authority]

I agree with Trader and White Knight. Make the call to OPS and tell them their options.

By the way, does anybody know the error margings on the fuel indicators of a B 777.

On the 747 it is 1800 kg. So 3000 kg could be 1200 kg or 4800 kg.

So planning to go to an altn with 30 min isn't really an option.

[dubaicrew]

please can i have some of whatever it is that youre smoking?

[sheikmyarse]

I normally smoke Skydrol

[Kamelchaser]

Pitch Up Authority....According to Boeing, the FQIS on the 777 which supplies info to the totalizer (ie fuel gauges) has a maximum error of +/- 1% with full tanks, improving to +/- 0.5% for a near empty tank.

The fuel flow transmitters, supplying FMC info, have an error of less than 0.5% during cruise conditions. (this info in EK FAQ doc)

777 FCOM also states that displayed totalizer quantity at the start of the flight can be between 99% and 101% of the actual fuel. Calculated is set equal to totalizer fuel before engine start. (therefore, while calculated is supposedly more accurate throughout the flight, it is only as accurate as it was at the start..with totalizer's 1% error rate.)

At the end of the day, I'm not about to put on an extra tonne of gas just because the gauges may be underreading by 1,000kg. It does however open up an interesting debate about which fuel figure you should use towards the end of the flight if there is a discrepancy.

[Praise Jebus]

Keep in mind that when you commit to DXB, what do you think most of the other EK jets are doing....?

Reality is that a large chunk of the airline are committing to the same destination at the same time, could get exciting.......

[The Turtle]

+1 vote totalizer

i'm just sayin'

[kimoki]

Guy D'ageradar

Which reduced landing separation is that then? We still work to the same vortex wake spacings which, in fact, means it's getting worse now as the 380s arrive, especially as they fly so much slower than everyone else! (I don't think I've EVER had one tell me they couldn't fly the standard speeds though)

Ok the 380 probably has the slowest min clean speed but can well and truly match all the other types at whatever speed required. All you have to do is ask. 180 till 10 and 160 till 4 is not a problem.

[Guy D'ageradar]

All you have to do is ask. 180 till 10 and 160 till 4 is not a problem.

We do, as I'm sure you well know.

The problem is that, on all too regular a basis, these speeds are not complied with. Almost every shift that I have done recently, at least one a380, having read back the aforementiond speed requirement, is found to be doing 135 knots or so, 6 or 7 miles out (asked and confirmed, not just observed groundspeed). Furthermore, no-one seems to think it's worth telling the poor atco who is about to be suspended for losing separation!

I've said it many times on these forums and I'll repeat it again - if you can't comply with the speeds, PLEASE at least let us know. That way, we'll make allowances with the guy behind. Otherwise, someone is going around and I really don't see why it should be the guy who IS flying the speeds.

[40&80]

Does E.K. and their controlling Caa....have a robust system in place that records, publishes, and analyses in great detail all the "arrival" on chocks fuel?
Departure fuel always concerns the company the most...and...arrival fuel always concerns the pilots and passengers the most!
I expect the correct answer to the 20 minutes fuel confusion will be provided by the legal profession... eventually... when they sue the butt of the concerned Captain if he is still alive...and all available if he is not.

[maddog62]

The best I have seen so far is a guy adding an extra ton from Melbourne of which only 400 Kgs would have been left on arrival.

yes and no. if your azfw went down at least 1 ton from the ezfw then, upon arrival in dxb, you had your full ton or more.

mad

[puff m'call]

It really doesn't matter a rats ass, just take the fuel that you think you need for the situation you're in. Then circle WX and ATC on the copy of the Flight Log. (OFP)'"

Job Done!!!

[Pitch Up Authority]

Kamelchaser, that's my point ..... it counts at the end.

[40&80]

The "experts" who introduced the minimum C.F.P policy at Gulf Air told me they accepted and expected up to 5% of flights thus fuelled to divert due to a low fuel state.
They upped their fuel loads when they found it not cost effective in real life. They found they had irate passengers sometimes stuck for hours in all sorts of strange hotels and airports.
They then issued figures to Captains showing the cost of these diversions due fuel and their urgent request that Captains should always seek to avoid a low fuel diversion.
That is how they became... experts.
When asked on a Command interview to describe the Gulf Air fuel policy a F/O
said,... The G.F. fuel policy is very important... I think it is with Norwich Union or possibly Standard Life...he passed.:eek:

[Payscale]

If you divert with a low fuel state doesnt mean you will land safely at this sometimes rural airport... I personally prefer to have options. I think I will have a longer life after retirement with less stress during my work life..:zzz:

[Panther 88]

And that, Payscale, says it all. Period, the end. The final analysis, don't put the stress on yourself.

[40&80]

Otherwise you may have to go fatigued...and save them a few tons of fuel by not flying.