Harrier Pilot attacks Prime Minister on cuts

[rogerk]

Lt Cdr Kris Ward, 37, questioned Mr Cameron as the Prime Minister prepared to deliver the conclusions of the Strategic Defence and Security Review, in which the Navy is expected to fare worst.
Lt Cdr Ward, whose father Cdr Nigel "Sharkey" Ward led attacks during the Falklands conflict, said: "I am a Harrier pilot and I have flown 140-odd missions in Afghanistan, and I am now potentially facing unemployment. How am I supposed to feel about that, please, sir?"

"I AM NOW POTENTIALLY FACING UNEMPLOYMENT !!"

Tough **** Lt Cdr and welcome to the real world

[d105]

Just goes to show, never take it for granted.

[airborne_artist]

What the difference between a Harrier and its pilot?

Coat, hat etc. :E

[dickym]

May I respectfully suggest that anyone who has flown '140 odd missions in Afghanistan' knows quite a bit about the 'real' world.

[donk_Unregistered]

Fair question. Phrased in a argumentative fashion.

A recording of the question and some of the answer from DC (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/David-Cameron-Challenged-By-Harrier-Navy-Pilot-Kris-Ward-Over-Defence-Cuts/Article/201010315761346?lpos=Politics_First_Poilitics_Article_Teaser _Regi_1&lid=ARTICLE_15761346_David_Cameron_Challenged_By_Harrier_Nav y_Pilot_Kris_Ward_Over_Defence_Cuts)

[Sgt.Slabber]

"I AM NOW POTENTIALLY FACING UNEMPLOYMENT !!"
Tough **** Lt Cdr and welcome to the real world

from ROGERK, age 69, location - France

Hmmm....

[FFP]

In which case, he'd also know that as a Lt Cdr he has options in the RN that don't involve flying. That's the bittersweet with regards to promotion. Of course it's a shame that he will no longer be flying the Harrier, but something had to go and IMO it could have been worse.

From the BBC website

Dr Fox said there would be a range of helicopters and unmanned aircraft which would still be able to fly from them

As one door closes.......;)

On a side note...

said: "I am a Harrier pilot

Always the first thing they say, isn't it .......:E

[Willard Whyte]

May I respectfully suggest that someone who has flown 140 missions in 'stan knows a lot about flying missions in 'stan.

No one, harrier pilot or not, has a divine right to employment. And no, of course I wouldn't like to be in his position - but we all are, aren't we.

[MrWomble]

Indeed, no sympathy for those who may have to join the rest of us in the real world.

[Geehovah]

Am I missing something here? Although I'm now retired I didn't join the RAF as an entry to the commercial jobs market. What price the Military Covenant and Terms of Service? I joined to serve my Country knowing that it would take out a large chunk of my life. As it happened, it took out a lot more than expected but I wasn't reviewing the jobs market for most of my time.

I'm with the Lt Cdr and he's earned the right to pose that question. A Strategic Defence Review that bins the Joint CAS asset when we are still on a CAS centric operation is a cost cutting exercise. Lets just call it what it is.

[coley chaos]

The name Ward? Must be Sharkey Wards son...he from the Falklands War who was known for his plain no nonsense talking.

Like father like son.

[AR1]

I'd be more impressed if he flew up the Thames at low level then flew under Tower Bridge.

[Trim Stab]

FFS he should just man up. He might not have a harrier to fly shortly, but I doubt that at 37 he will be in line for redundancy from the RN.

Loads of people in a far worse situation than him.

I find it slightly cringeworthy that a serving officer should make such a public whinge.

[ICBM]

I for one applaud Mental's moral courage for asking a direct question to the chief policy maker of our country - well done mate and good for you. Many would have chosen to stay quiet.

Those who believe that the good Lt Cdr's question was self-centred are clearly missing the point - he was talking in general terms and asking on behalf of all who are faced with that position and his point in highlighting his experience in Afghanistan was likely to add some relevance to the decision concerning Harrier in particular; believe it or not there is more than one Harrier pilot in the UK Armed Forces :O

Nobody has a 'right' to employment but everybody has a right to care and everybody has a right to ask direct questions. Cameron wasn't attacked, contrary to the media sensationalist headline, he was asked a pertinent question and delivered an answer.

[NURSE]

well the job market will be tight with him joining nimrod pilots competing to join the airlines. Just wonder what all those Tac navs and back cabin crews on the nimrod will do in civvy street!

[Aerouk]

If they are going to ditch the Harriers, what's going to end up with the crews?

[6f1]

Well Done Lt Cdr Ward it's a shame you are not a Admiral.
Rogerk sounds like just another septic Ex crab who should be ignored!

[SaddamsLoveChild]

another FJ mate who thinks he is above everyone else and shouldnt be made redundant................tell that to the 280 engineers who were on yearly rollover contracts, had based mortgages on it and were told 3 months ago that they no longer had a job.

Suck it up boys and girls its no different from civvy street and the sooner we realise we arent different the easier life will be to accept.:\

[Jabba_TG12]

How is he supposed to feel about it?

Pragmatic. Be thankful he's not being given his P45 today. As others have said, he might not be flying Harriers for much longer, but hey, all things must come to an end. He either flies something else, gets a ground tour or several or gets out.

He now has to face a decision as to what he is going to do with the rest of his life. Just like many of the rest of us have, before and again in the future.

[hulahoop7]

Wasn't the PMs answer more revealing? He's obviously been well briefed if he thinks Typhoon is currently out in Stan

[exmover_and_happy]

This has echoes of the defence cuts of the Wilson government in the late 60's and early 70's. Anyone that remembers that might also recall the predictions that the British Armed Forces would never recover from the sweeping cuts of overseas bases, programs and personnel.

Apparently we survived and I'm pretty sure that will be the case this time.

[Pure Pursuit]

"Hi, I used to be a Harrier pilot..."

A shame to see the fleet go however, no sympathy for Lt Cdr Ward. A rather arrogant statement from somebody who clearly fails to understand that he isn't the only person putting himself in harms way. :ugh:

[rogerk]

What's the difference between God and an RN Harrier pilot ?
God doesn't think he's an RN Harrier pilot.

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Another quality quote from the BBC

Mr Cameron thanked him for "everything" he had done for his country, but said there had been long discussions about the review and the military advice was that "it was right to keep the Typhoon as the principal ground attack aircraft, working in Afghanistan at the moment, and right to retire the Harrier".

[Scruffy Fanny]

I dont normally get worked up by people ....But boy you are one of lifes Loosers- I dont know Sharkeys son all my Harrier mates say he's a good blole. What he has got that you dont is Balls- sitting in your chair slagging off in my view one of the UKs Heros is not on. This man has flown 140 missions any chance you can tell us your combat history?? sitting in a chair writing crap? It takes guts to tell the PM what you think and he did- The PM who thinks the Typhoon is on active duty - right. Get back in your "real world" Roger K and give the poor bugger a break- If id just been told id lost my dream id be pissed off too.

[racedo]

But it was all supposed to be so better if people voted one way in May or that was the gist of what people were saying on here.................

[racedo]

I dont normally get worked up by people

Says someone who gives their Location as a death camp where hundreds of thousands were put to death....................

Location wasn't funny to an old neighbour i took with me 20 years ago who still had the reminder coded on her arm but she sometimes claimed she wasn't the lucky one.

[Double Zero]

I'm totally with Lt Cdr Ward.

Please see 'youtube' the 2 Johns re Admirals v surface fleet numbers...

If anyone who knows me reads this, they'll know I am not a pilot, but a fan of, and experienced working with, the aircraft.

That being said, can't see a great loss in the Sidewinder only GR9, compared to FA2 or as I keep whinging, 2+, both with AMRAAM.

I suppose they'll argue the Appache is nearly as capable or the ships ( what God-Awful names ! ) can carry someone elses's air wing.

The Earth is slightly off axis at the moment as Churchill, Drake and Nelson are all spinning in their graves ( C' Douglas Adams ).

One can only hope the rumours of vaguely quickly operational ( yes I know what's involved and my eyebrows are just above the stratosphere too ) FA2's or even GR9's are true.

Also I note Illustrious is notable by her absence of being mentioned, and one ditty on the news reckoned the Queen Elizabeth would be 'sold or mothballed' once POW comes along.

If we're going for just 40F-35C's, Christ knows what the unit price works out at, and what about the money spent on the development of the 'B' ? I rather expect someone else will benefit from that.

If 'Ark Royal' is to be scrapped - not sold mind you - tomorrow, I'll offer £5.00, I reckon I can see a market for her...

It's been a common thread in history since a moment after the Wright Brothers that the FAA gets shafted, right up to the point they're desperately needed; and not just by the RAF, Admirals who value air power above their own careers are rarer than hens' teeth; what was I saying about the '2 John's' sketch ?!

[Scruffy Fanny]

RogerK- I'm all ears- please do tell us where you have served "operationally"

[exmover_and_happy]

http://www.audionervosa.com/Smileys/default/1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_be.gif

Is this what they call a dick-measuring contest on the interwebs?

[st nicholas]

The Airlines are not interested in ex mil aviators at the moment either. They prefer young cadets through CTC and the like. I am afraid those who expect to fall into civil flying are in for a nasty shock .

Good luck to all affected.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

won't the Harriers just carry on with the crabs in the Joint Harrier Force?


No. All Harriers are being retired.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Is this what they call a dick-measuring contest on the interwebs?

It appears one of the participants is using someone else's dick though. Is that even allowed?:rolleyes:

[waveskimmer]

WELL SAID, SCRUFFY FANNY

I read his name as Ro gerk.:sad:

[Scruffy Fanny]

The trouble is the UK is totally screwed- 20 years ago say 1990 we had half an air force- 30 years ago 1980 we had bloody hundreds of Jags, Buccs, Hunters, Ltgs, F4s and a superb support force with C130,s Choppers galore and a maritime fleet that was second to non. Now we have bugger all having just had a decade 1996-2006 of boom. So why cant we now afford an armed easy because we have a country where half the people dont work- case in example woman opposite me - east european, been here 5 years never worked costs at best guess £2500 a month in benefits inc housing. So that means a person earning £2000 a month pays £400 tax so it takes 6 people to support 1 free loader- THATS WHY WE CANT AFFORD AN ARMED FORCES!! . Thats why i take my hat off to Lt Cdr Ward who had the balls to speak up to the PM. The guy who thinks the Typhoon is in Afghanistan. The PM was the man who said we had too many MPs - so has he cut any- NO. Frankly we need to have a military Coup and people like Son Of Sharky get my vote!!

[snagged1]

Tough times ahead for the services across the board. Sad to see the Harrier go (and indeed the cuts as a whole), but what choice was/is there?

I dont think the comment by Lt Cdr Ward was ideal - many about to feel the effects of cuts in most areas. Simply put (and yes it is being said plenty) we are broke due to years and years of overspend, and genius moves like Gordon Clown selling of our gold reserves when gold was at it's lowest price for 1000 yrs. Its not Cameron/Coalitions fault...

[sr.jones]

I'm Shocked my wife asked Four good questions today " why is HMS Ark royal being scrapped when HMS Illustrious is older? Why scrap Harriers they can be used onboard ship and on land,and they only have one engine surely they are cheaper to operate than Tornado ? Have they Scrapped HMS Ark Royal Early to keep the enable the new (operational) carrier to be renamed and keep the famous Name instead of POW ,and finally why don't all the ex forces people get together to form a political party, to look after UK Defence interests and get rid of millions of benefit cheats and immigrants bleeding the country dry and run the country in a way to make Britain "Great" Again ?

I gave her my answers but anyone care to Expand ?

[moggiee]

May I respectfully suggest that someone who has flown 140 missions in 'stan knows a lot about flying missions in 'stan.

No one, harrier pilot or not, has a divine right to employment. And no, of course I wouldn't like to be in his position - but we all are, aren't we.

Having been made redundant in 1996, 2003 AND 2010 I can tell Lt Cdr Ward two things:

1) Aviation is an insecure industry in which to work and
2) You get on with it and get a new job (as has happened each time).

Maybe you take a pay hit, maybe you do a job you don't like much, maybe you have to move (or all 3) but you knuckle down, put yourself out there and get a job. I'm now on a decent tax free salary in the Middle East but first had to endure 14 "lean" years after leaving the RAF.

Still, I'm quite good at filling in UB40s, RP1, RP2, mortgage payment protection claim forms etc. etc. etc.

[EXscopie]

I'm with the guy who said time for a coup. It seems to me that all these amateur politicians only ever screw up. Maybe democracy doesn't work at the moment? So far all I see is a bunch of self important politicos still troughing the parliamentary expenses and taking home £60k p.a.plus a nice fat pension.

An we still give overseas aid to India so they can have a space programme!

[Phil_R]

No one, harrier pilot or not, has a divine right to employment. And no, of course I wouldn't like to be in his position - but we all are, aren't we.

Outside perspective alert.

At risk of bigging myself up, I too do rather specialised work in an industry which is incredibly selective and difficult to get into, although I am a comparatively small operator in that field. People (not me) who have "deployed" with cameras on their shoulders, doing good and necessary work in unpleasant places and come back with bits of shrapnel in them, are now making wedding videos for a living. Not intending to get at anyone here, but hard-won and much loved careers are being shredded in all sectors. I got paid to do creative work today; today was a good day in those terms. May there be many more like it for everyone. Commiserations to the clobbered, nonetheless.

On a more constructive note, what happens to all these harriers, jaguars, sea harriers, and even Nimrods and the like that are taken out of sevice? Are the best ones put into some sort of survivable storage state so that they could, in extremis, be brought back into service to serve some sort of emergency? Obviously there's the issue of training crews, but the thought remains.

P

[orca]

Would it be fair to state that the PM probably spoke first (it's the usual way)and span some line about the cuts being great and that they would result in world class relevant forces? If so it is only fair for someone to explain who they are and why it might seem odd for someone with such relevant skills to be facing such an uncertain future. He did not just shout it out, unbidden in the street now did he?

While I am aware of the ROE that states its fair to have a go at any Harrier driver (who has to be arrogant because some stacker at IOT said they were and it kind of stuck) I see nothing arrogant in anything he said. It is absolutely SOP in military circles to open with your name, rank, role and relevant experinece in any forum. In one that COIN or Herrick has just been discussed then what the f**k do you expect?

Before I forget, the gag about God not thinking he was a Harrier pilot doesn't actually work does it? Do you mean that the stovie thinks he's God? If so, re-write your joke. Good SOP banter by the way, works right up until the point you're exposed to wit.

Maybe, just maybe, this is the thin end of the wedge; maybe this officer took the SHAR retirement on the chin, maybe he moved his family across the country, maybe he re-roled to mud - just as the jags were being sent to AD. Maybe he worked hard through his second OCU. Maybe he took a single RN FW squadron on the chin. Maybe he has spent most Mondays for the last few years having to read another Torpy-gram about how great and relevant Typhoon is when he never saw it on ops, about how the FAA was irrelevant. Maybe he was in KAF when all the building was going on to make the GR4 fit in it. Maybe, just maybe he has had enough and quite rightly what came out of his mouth was impassioned and family-centric. He never said he was special, he never said he was scared or unaware of the real world.

And let's get one thing absolutely straight. He never said, meant or implied that no-one else was upset, in danger or not pulling their weight.

I for one will stand by this officer who will sadly, in all probability, never fly in the military again and certainly not off an RN deck. About time someone had the balls to stand up for themselves before they had a General's pay and pension. BZ.

[Jollygreengiant64]

I'm absolutely on the side of this harrier pilot. At no point should he, and indeed all of the other members of the forces be subject to such a stupid situation, especially when benefit cheats and the rest of that lot continue to scrounge off the state. This man hasn't refused to go to war or anything that serious, merely stated an objection to being dicked around by dave.


I had higher hopes for *Liam* Fox. Thought he might have fought a harder fight.

[Chinny Crewman]

140, is that all? ;)

[Scruffy Fanny]

Good to see some support for a gutsy RN pilot. The SHARs i believe are mostly stored at RAF Shawbury. The Indians wanted to buy them but then backed out- perhaps as they were able to fire AMMRAM the US blocked the deal. Some of the SHARs were only a few years old and actually pretty good machines. I think a lot of people miss the point- sure its a tough world outside but this guy has just been kicked in the teeth after giving his all. I guess hes 40+ so getting a job in the airlines will be a non starter or slim. It begs belief that this country Brown, labour , Blair DC who ever have pissed away our taxes. How many people thought Nimrod MR4 was a good idea- rebuilding a Comet- Holy SH1T we all knew it would be a sure way to loose Billions. If BAE think the MR4 is great lets see if they use their own money complete the programme and find a buyer for them.
Its time we all stopped being very British and polite and say actually NO- ask the questions WHY has the budget for benefits become the biggest slice ofthe cake. Funny as well how the person who started this thread when asked what he'd ever done said ...lots and now seems to have gone very quite. Myself i raise a glass to Lt Cdr Ward and wish him all the best

[glad rag]

A lot of bubbles are going to be burst.

[Alber Ratman]

Nobody has mentioned that the leaping JSF has been canned...FAA will have supersonic kites lobbed off the deck and trapping the wire again.. When they get them..

[Alber Ratman]

Who is Ian Fox??:E

[Cross Deck Landing]

I fully agree with Sharky piping up - when else would he get a chance to ask such a pointed question to the only man who has the full answers. Several of you believe it is a self serving question but I took at as a question asked on behalf of all the people in his position be they pilots, engineers etc tied into the Harrier world. He had to explain what he did to prove credibility and then question the governments commitment to someone who had shown such commitment back to his country - Don't see how any of you can take issue with this - you would all have done the same if you were in his position... if you had had the balls.

[red.zebra]

Don't deny the guy the right to ask the question, we are a democratic society after all, but he is not the first and he wont be the last.

For those vehemently defending him, his parentage or heroism counts for nothing, deal with it, it is just numbers.

For those vilifying him, he has his rights as we all do.

Like many of us who have gone before him, and those who will go after him, time to suck it up, grow a pair and get on with it, trust me, time spent whining can be better spent.

As for my own operational record, yes I have one, and no, it has sod all to do with anyone else, and that is why it is MY operational record :)

[Willard Whyte]

A.R. I know, good innit.

[PX927]

I guess the problem with written communication is you cannot always tell when people are being ironic. I have to give some people the benefit of the doubt based on some of the postings to this topic.

For those who think why should Kris Ward's redundancy be any different from theirs, perhaps you should cast your mind back to the first things that came into your mind when you had your news, and see if they are not similar? Did you think of others or just yourself?

Yes it's not the end of the world when an individual loses their job - though it may feel like it to that individual at the time - but there's no necessity to make ridiculous comments just because you can. Everyone has a right to state an opinion, so this was mine in response.

[Jollygreengiant64]

AR

Bugger, slip of the tongue:ugh:. Still, thats not the point.

[WE992]

Mr Ward gets my vote. Its nice to see sombody speaking their mind in public rather than acting like a sheep and towing the line

[Rigger1]

I’m sorry but where does it, or did he, say he has lost his job. He hasn’t. He is an officer in the RN and as such can be gainfully employed in numerous posts. Are they about to ditch all the leaping heap operators overnight with Dave on the horizon, ok the distant horizon but it is coming, no. So let’s wait and see what happens. However, as for a serving officer putting such a stupid and ridiculous question to the PM, well maybe if they are looking for chaps to chop I think his antics will proably have landed his name on some admirals list, if it wasn’t before.

Please note before people get on their high horses and say how dare I, I am not questioning his bravery, kahoonas, masculinity or ability as a pilot in any way with my comments.

[Widger]

5000 to go from the RN, so those Pilots will we part of that equation, they will almost certainly not be re-employed IMHO. Well done Sharkey Junior for speaking up and if anyone is still under the illusion that JCA will be operated by the FAA after today, you are just as naive as some of the dark blue hierachy.

[Willard Whyte]

JCA you say?

wtf.

[Alber Ratman]

Lt Cdr Ward still has a job.. Those at Woodford will not tomorrow.

[Farfrompuken]

Good on yer, Mental! I think you were right to pipe up as you did.

I feel for the FAA; they've taken a huge hit, as have the kipper fleet too.

I think we may live to rue some of these decisions in times to come.

Bliar and Broone set the backdrop; cuts will have to come across the board if we wish to continue to trade successfully as a nation. Lets hope we recover and those facing redundancy won't be searching for long.

[RumPunch]

Lt Cmdr Ward at least stuck up for his job, nice one and respect. His dad was legend as his book made me think about joining the RAF , failed eyesight resigned to engineer 21 years . If you get a chance to read Dave Wards battles against the Argies its a must.

I just feel everyone in the Forces is getting angry with each other . We are one and we are forgetting that.

[Aerouk]

His dad was legend as his book made me think about joining the RAF

Must have been a rather rubbish, if a book about the Royal Navy made you want to join the RAF :rolleyes:

[jayteeto]

Some here have said about cutting benefit scroungers or other less worthy causes instead of the military. Well read the papers, they are doing just that. I realised many years ago that I was just a number, not a person in the RAF. Hundreds of us have well over 3years service in NI/Kosovo/Iraq/Stan where we faced being shot at every day. 140 missions is not a monopoly. When the politicians need you for photos, you are a hero. The rest of the time you are an expensive pain in the butt. Service voter equal a couple of hundred thousand, people on benefits equal millions. They need the votes, just accept the fact (right or wrong) because it isn't going to change. Good luck in the job hunting, you and the other 500,000 public sector workers, plus the thousands of BAE workers, plus the thousands of contractors are going to need it.
PS. If anyone says you should have voted Labour, they would have kept borrowing and in 5 years this would look like a picnic in comparison.

[Trim Stab]

Not everybody on benefits is a "scrounger". There are plenty of people out there who are suicidally desperate for a job.

[rogerk]

.... before "scruffy fanny" has a heart attack ?
I have no problem with the guy and his excellent service record.
My problem is his arrogance "I am going to be unemployed"
So are the guys who service his Harrier, the clerk in the office who makes sure his pay and allowances are up to date, the bowser driver, the barman in the officers mess et al.
They also have mortgages, wives and children to feed !!

[Flap62]

Having only seen his comment on BBC news I think the mistake was the "I'm" bit. If he had posed the question more in a "I am a Lt Cdr in the RN and have many junior officers and ratings who are asking me about their futures, what would you suggest I tell them Prime Minister?",I would have had a great deal more sympathy with him. I felt his question came across as rather immature and seemed to show self interest in Ward, Harrier pilot rather than Lt Cdr Ward, RN officer.

[footster]

Rogerk I have lost my job on medical grounds and would love to get back to work yes there are those who think they have a devine right to benefit and should be sought out and dealt with appropriately.But the bottom line to all this is it was the bankers who got this country in this financial mess and are they being punished NO. They still keep their high salaries and very nice bonuses thankyou and I believe that they should be the ones to be targeted and made to pay. The men and women of are armed forces who put their lives on the line in Stan everyday should be the ones with those sort of salaries not bankers who have been able to walk away from this scot free.Once again military personell and the defence of our country has been shafted thanks to the morons in the city.

Footes

[wiggy]

I think the mistake was the "I'm" bit.

Likewise. I think he spoke from the heart, and if, as you say, he's been slightly more inclusive in his comment I don't think he'd have raise the ire of some here.

Having said that I'm sure the Lt Cdr knows that it's a very cold world out here in civvy aviation land ( another player seems to have gone down the tubes overnight) and the chances of him and others getting any job associated with aviation with sensible T&Cs in the near future seems slim...which is probably what drove his comment.

All I can really add is good luck to everyone effected by these cuts over the next few months/years.

[DozyWannabe]

Footster:

Hear hear. Illegal tax evasion by the wealthy costs the Treasury 15 times more than benefit fraud. Legal tax avoidance costs even more. Let's call these cuts what they are - ideologically driven - for the benefit and at the behest of chief executives of global corporations and banks.

[Evanelpus]

Blimey, at the rate we are going, a group of private collectors will have a better capability than us!

Keep sending those donations to Dr P and keep that Vulcan flying.

[wahwah64]

Well he should be feeling quite smug really. He can take a redundancy package, won't have to pay back his FRI (£50k) and is beyond his IPP so will take that too. With his experience he should have his licences so potentially walking into a job with a comparative salary.....

or stay in for peanuts, with a two year pay freeze, stag on in the "Stran, work long hours for the idiots at Whitehall who created the mess in his lovely multi-million pound financed PJHQ.......

[nigegilb]

I totally understand the sentiment expressed by Lt Cdr Ward, let's face it, ultimately these cuts affect individuals and in the heat of the moment you can't really blame him for speaking in the first person. Maybe he was surprised these swngeing cuts have come from a Conservative PM. Well Conservative in name at least. Labour were always too afraid of cutting UK AF this deeply, too much baggage in this area. Perhaps we should re-evaluate Cameron as some kind of socialist in Tory drag. All I know is that 14billion has been spent on Iraq Afghan since 2001. We could not afford to deploy to Afghan in 2006 but military chiefs of staff willingly committed an over-stretched military to fight a war on two fronts and now we are broke. All too predictable and sadly The conservative party voted for uk involvement in Iraq in 2003 and Helmand deployment in 2006.

Time to sling out the old guard at the top of the MoD they have been responsible for some shocking decision making in recent years.

My sympathies to those about to lose their jobs. Don't listen to some on this thread your training and expertise will be welcomed in civvy street.

[snagged1]

Anyone know what will happen to the Harriers now - as in, when will they be grounded and cease flying? I guess that the tap will be turned off quite quickly to save cash...

I agree with Nigegilb - skills will be highly valued, self-discipline etc - very positive in civvi street! Good luck to all those affected.

[day1-week1]

Its good to see that the "How do you know someone's a Harrier pilot? - he'll tell you" joke is as relevant today as it ever was. Obviously it will soon has to read 'ex-harrier pilot'.

What a plonker

[CrabInCab]

I notice that both BA and Virgin are recruiting at the moment - HM Forces loss is BA/Virgin's gain etc...

[Trim Stab]

I notice that both BA and Virgin are recruiting at the moment - HM Forces loss is BA/Virgin's gain etc...


They were recruiting. Both were so over-subscribed they took down the online application forms after a couple of days. And they were only accepting applicants already type-rated with minimum of 500 hours on type.

[wiggy]

Seconded.

Just sticking to pilot job isues, I hate to be the gloom in the room (especially as an ex crab) but no matter what your personal qualities, no matter how self disciplined you are, the now-closed recruiting for BA and Virgin was for those with a type rating and X hundred hours on type. BA certainly will not fast track somebody through the selection process just because they are ex-forces I'm afraid, you're stucking going through the same selection mill as the zero to hero wonders.

[CrabInCab]

They were recruiting. Both were so over-subscribed they took down the online application forms after a couple of days. And they were only accepting applicants already type-rated with minimum of 500 hours on type.

Granted but a good portent?

[foldingwings]

This thread is now officially getting on my wires!

Who says that just because you are a Harrier pilot, a Harrier techy or a Harrier anything else you are now redundant!

Ward, as a Royal Navy lieutenant commander, has reached the pinnacle of his time in an RN cockpit and will, no doubt, be destined for many years as a staff officer in the RN (either flying related or not) where his skills and experience will be put to good use. He is no more likely to be made redundant than the next guy and, if he is as good as he clearly thinks he is, less likely than some others to be cast aside. Alternatively, if he doesn't fancy that option, which was on the cards anyway at his time of career point, he can resign!

The truth, and I don't know him, is that he has displayed all the tendencies of a pompous, self-opinionated, self-enhancing and selfish ass (comes with the Harrier turf, perhaps) who should have known better but to keep his own council in the environment he found himself in. As was stated previously by another poster - had he spoken on behalf of his troops then it might have been different! Prat who clearly likes the sound of his own voice and, as such and all-in-all, unworthy of holding a commission!

Sadly, like father, like son!

Now that feels better.

Carry on, everybody!

Foldie:p

[rogerk]

This was my sentiment when I started the thread !!
But I would keep your head down because the nutters will come out of the bunkers in droves now !!
Especially one who is too old to know what a Harrier looks like and lives in Auswitz (If his profile is to be believed)
:ok::ok:

[Mushroom_2]

Foldingwings - couldn't have put it better myself.

[St Johns Wort]

Lets face it, it doesn't really matter what the pro's and con's are. This bloke has set an all time record on so many levels..........

"Good afternoon Prime Minister, I'm a Harrier Pilot................"

You couldn't make it up.:D

[The Magic Rat]

Any way you look at it, Kris Ward IS about to loose his "job". He wont be flying Harriers for much longer. He's pi$$ed off and has every right to be.
Sure he ll not be on the streets just yet and when he finally leaves he ll get a tidy wedge. Last time I looked, most service type folks weren't in it for the cash though so it wont exactly fill the gap.
Additionally (and in my opinion), although he used the first person, I got that distinct feeling that he was speaking with a voice for all who have been affected by this review. Well I thought so anyway........

[foldingwings]

Ratty,

Now hold right there.

Kris Ward IS about to loose (Sp. See me!) his "job"

No he is not! He might stop flying Harriers but that was an inevitability given his rank as a lt cdr anyway and he will still be paid HM's shilling if he cares to continue to serve (well unless he (and you too) happen to hold the opposing view to what follows below).

Ward's approach to the whole affair was, I'm afraid, self-centred in my opinion and unbecoming of an officer. As an officer, our first priority is to behave like one. There are far too many aircrew, and I include the RAF here, who consider themselves to be aircrew (I won't single out pilots particularly but you know where I am coming from) first and officers second! That frankly is the wrong way round! An officer's duty is to serve and, whilst doing so, uphold the dignity of the Service - not attempt to achieve 30 seconds of fame when confronted by our most senior politician.

He failed - end of!

Yours Sincerely

A retired officer who flew for 20 years and served for 40!

Foldie:}

[david parry]

Nice one Sharkeys Lad, im proud of you. Notice all the other Wafus kept stum:* ....Sharkeys lad had nothing to lose by speaking up since his job had all but been axed before his very eyes via Cameron. Sharkey "I've flown 140 missions out in Afghan ... Camerons reply, "Thank you for all you've done, (now sod off and go and join the dole queue!")

[Wrathmonk]

^^^^

You're going to have to shout louder Foldie ;)

[bast0n]

I would have had a great deal more sympathy with him. I felt his question came across as rather immature and seemed to show self interest in Ward, Harrier pilot rather than Lt Cdr Ward, RN officer.

as has been said " Like father like son".

Show them a microphone or a camera and it is all "over here ,me,me,me"

Very sad.

[seniortrooper]

I agree, he's 37 for chr#sts sake and should know better. So what if he's done 140 missions in A. Do you get a free job with every 150 missions out there or what.
Couldn't take a joke old boy......shouldn't have joined. Your dad must have told you that one time and time again (140 times actually:sad:)k.
Listen sharkey - do your time get your severance pay and bum a job with Virgin...tough life eh?

[WhyNavy]

he has displayed all the tendencies of a pompous, self-opinionated, self-enhancing and selfish ass

Well said - completely agree

[tucumseh]

Maybe if more had spoken up, both serving officers and civil servants, we wouldn't be in this mess. Far too many practice supine appeasement and sycophancy.

[day1-week1]

Apparently the whole exchange was edited for the purposes of tv. The actual exchange went as follows:

"Hello sir I'm a harrier pilot who has flown 140 missions in afghan, in a harrier that is....me being a harrier pilot. So there I was, in my harrier over Afghanistan, 140 times, just me in the cockpit as the pilot...of the harrier. Now where was I......oh yes, with the harrier being taken out of service, how am I going to fly my harrier, me being the pilot and all. So what I'm trying to say is...how would you feel if, like me you were a harrier pilot who was now unemployed with no harrier to fly because even though I'm still a pilot there are no harriers to fly........uhm, did I mention that I was a harrier pilot."

PS - this is an abridged version, but you get the idea.

[wahwah64]

Personally, any statement made, be it by harrier mate, challenger driver etc, that makes the PM squirm, gets my thumbs up.

I do believe though, whether intentional or not, that the wording "am a Harrier pilot" was used as a metaphor for any individual affected by the cuts.

Be it, tank driver, ship driver(if you drive ships?) MOD civil servant et al.....


Con-Dem.... Don't blame me....I didn't vote for them!

[Cyber Bob]

Did he really say the words, "Please" and "Sir" to 'Call me Dave'. Makes you want to break out in song.

All together now, "As long as he needs me........................"

[orgASMic]

Foldingwings, I am right with you. The PM's answer to "So what am I supposed to do now?" should have been "Turn to the right, salute and carry on."

Another case of foot in mouth disease.

[Molemot]

One recalls the old motto :"Never complain, never explain".

Just get on with it.....

[airborne_artist]

An officer's duty is to serve his country and look after his men/team - didn't hear anything about them :uhoh:

[Navy_Adversary]

They say that the weather in Yuma is very pleasant at this time of the year, 513 perhaps?:cool:

[The Magic Rat]

Foldie,

Fair enough...about the spelling mistake anyway.

Look, I get the bit where it's be an Officer first and everything else comes second, but times have changed and not for the better.

I think he was right to speak up and I think its time for everyone in a position of authority to question these politicians and make them squirm. We've been lied to and bull$hitted for long enough now.

[foldingwings]

MR,

We've been lied to and bull$hitted for long enough now

Not by the present Prime Minister, I believe.

Look, something had to give! The Navy have shot themselves in the foot by insisting on their 2 white elephants at the expense of other (some might say) more important roles! Our Sea Lords must have agreed the removal of Ark to get their 2 new boats and LUST is now in helo fit. So, the Harrier was not going to have a platform to operate from and, as I stated in another thread on the SDSR, it is less capable than Tornado GR4 - like it or not!

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/431121-gr4-better-than-harrier.html


Question:
GR4 better than Harrier?

Certainly!

It carries Storm Shadow, which GR9 cannot. It carries greater weight of weapons than GR9 can. GR4 can do CAS; GR9 has no divine right to that role.

Only GR9 advantage, I can see, is that it can go to sea when GR4 cannot. However, GR9 cannot launch off the deck with full weapons load and carrier magazines are not cleared for some GR9 weapons!

In my view the decision might have been different if the RN hadn't kept banging on about their need for 2 huge carriers that are, we now see, unaffordable and unsustainable with a few 'Daves' on board!

RN shot themselves in the foot and have offered up, and now probably lost forever, BRNC for no actual gain in capability.

Foldie

Now, back to the officer in question, he needs to realise some of the above rather than ranting on about how the World can no longer be saved because he is now redundant - No he's not!!

Foldie:ugh:

[david parry]

Why would/should, Sharkys Lad !! Like to have a career change :rolleyes: in the Andrew as a fish head , or sundodger after serving as a FAA, fixed wing pilot???? i think not, redundancy is the only option imho

[foldingwings]

My very point, Dave!

As I stated in my Post 79 on Page 4:

Alternatively, if he doesn't fancy that option, which was on the cards anyway at his time of career point, he can resign!

Note my point: as a lt cdr his days in the cockpit were numbered anyway - hence, IMHO, it was a 'look at me' moment!

Foldie:ugh:

[Tourist]

Folding wings.
Can I just say that I despise you for your behavior on this forum. Very unofficerlike in my opinion.
Not good enough for harrier and always held a chip?

[TEEEJ]

His Dad (Sharkey) still very active on the following.

BRITAIN?S FAST JET FORCES ? NATIONAL INTEREST VERSUS VESTED INTEREST. The Phoenix Think Tank (http://thephoenixthinktank.wordpress.com/2010/10/14/britain%E2%80%99s-fast-jet-forces-%E2%80%93-national-interest-versus-vested-interest/)

TJ

[foldingwings]

Laugh out Loud, Tourist! Get over yourself.

It would have been a bit trick for me flying Harriers as I never was a pilot (nor a failed one) but was FJ through and through - and just missed flying cats & traps off Ark to boot.

Actually, I do feel sorry for the Harrier force and their loss but the facts are plain - something had to give and the Harrier was the obvious choice! It was the RN who got rid of SHAR rather too early and the GR9 is not that capable and less so when it doesn't have a deck to operate from!

It's people bleating about it publicly that get my goat!

So do leave it out, Tourist, keep up with the pace of the thread and take the point that Mr Ward has behaved inappropriately!

You're not he are you!!?

What a larf!

Foldie:rolleyes:

[just another jocky]

Not good enough for harrier and always held a chip?

Me......ow! :}

[Trim Stab]

Can I just say that I despise you for your behavior on this forum. Very unofficerlike in my opinion.



Why unofficerlike? I thought the point FW made was entirely justified.

The ethos of officer training (well, in the Army at least) is to always put your men before yourself - so you eat after they have eaten, get your head down after them, wake up before them, eat after them again. As others have pointed out, the appropriately monikered Mental's opening line was "I'm a Harrier pilot and..." The rest was all about self-preservation.

HMG has invested about £3m in his training as a Harrier pilot, so even if he no longer has the opportunity to pay that back as a Harrier pilot, he has the opportunity to pay it back as an RN officer. Even on a ground tour, that is a damn good, honourable, dignified, well paid job, with good career prospects. He should consider himself extremely lucky.

There are a lot of people in the defence industry signing on the dole today.

[Neptunus Rex]

The good Lt Cdr has just earned himself a 'Career' moment. He now needs to consult his deskie as to whether he will go on to make Flag Rank, or has just pierced his promotion ceiling. Knowing the Navy, it could be difficult to tell.

[Op_Twenty]

Foldie and Trim Stab are absolutely right - it was a 'what about me?' moment. It is unfortunate for any pilot to lose their cockpit but to whinge about it on national TV, that is truly bad form, it really is.

Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

[jmp10]

I'm wondering that if on one says something then perhaps that would be the worst of all options and typically British, when there are some significant implications re. this decision. It was put quite well, and so...

The point being, if everyone said nothing (and there was no 'look at me moment' as it has been described) then what?

It's a point, rather than a criticism and I'm genuinely interested in other perspectives on this. Also what perhaps may be a factor in the statement to the effect described is that his father is Sharky Ward. If he wasn't would that change attitudes, perhaps? However would that maintain the principle of challenging when a fair point can be made?

Best regards,
A.

[bast0n]

JMP10

Would you like to re-write your post in English?

I'm wondering that if on one says something then perhaps that would be the worst of all options

when there are some significant implications re. this decision

The point being, if everyone said nothing It would be a bit quiet then!

However would that maintain the principle of challenging when a fair point can be made?

Your post is a bit like Sharkies book -dodgy - and not very good grammer!!

PS FW - you are spot on.

[jmp10]

Thanks for your reply. On your first point, the grammar is fine.

I note you didn't answer the question. I agree it would be quiet, however that's not the point. What is inherently wrong in asking a question and making a point? Or is it a culture of silence and 'grin and bear it' and then later bellyache and whinge? That's one possible interpretation. I'm curious as to why he's receiving so much stick from some, and am asking what other aspects are there informing this.

A.

Ps Grammer [sic] is correctly spelled 'grammar' fyi ;)

[Fire 'n' Forget]

The RN 'gave up' the SHAR, he should look closer to home if he wants to blame someone.

[Boozydragon]

I'm not going to snipe at the Lt Cdr because he has the right to put the question and expect a realistic answer, however he should wake up and smell the coffee. I gave up on the belief that loyalty was a two way street many moons ago and this has come as no shock to me, which is hard when you are trying to motivate the JOs. Unfortunately the majority of the general public and politicians just don't see things the way we do and though we have put our live on the line for them we are just in the melting pot with the 25,000 civilian members of the MOD. The retention pay/professional aviator gravy train has reached the end of the line mon brave and the sooner you get to grips with the fact the better. Me?, well I'm looking forward to what the MOD come up with in the next few weeks/months ref the 'package'. If it's anything like it was in 2005/06 then all the good tradesmen will jump ship and the dross will spend their time dodging QR1027.

[jmp10]

I think there's a fair chance that he did not expect a justification, though was making the point that it was not the PM who had to deliver the news face-to-face, i.e. it's much easier and not necessarily justified to make decisions that appear arbitrary, though not so easy to implement them for those who effectively do so. The over-arching point being the decision is, by implication, incorrect, which I would hasten to say is the case. I suppose it's really about, in the way he put it, the difference between politicians and others, including and perhaps more so, the military. This is as you stated about the difference between the perception of a two-way street and 'reality'- and moreover as the politicians shape and have further shaped it (to everyone's detriment, it would be fair to say).

It's interesting that instead of address efficiency in some of the largest areas, in fact the largest government employment area- the NHS, they left it unchanged in terms of the budget. As they did for other areas. This is a political gesture and one to safeguard their 'cutting' reputation as the NHS is a 'touch-rail' issue in the UK, as medicare has been in the US for decades. This I believe, with the effective substitution of capability for reform, be a more expensive (in the more substantive sense also) than addressing all that needs to be, and fundamentally so. This trend is also mirrored in their approach to education, which will be highly damaging into the future, and is, when one looks at the figures and other expenses, regressive as the IFS Institute of Fiscal Studies) has stated.

A.

[Harris1211]

Now I am no economist, but it seems to me that there is a potential to save jobs like these being lost by scrapping the, quite frankly pointless, £30 a week "Educational Maintenance Allowance" for teenagers?

Did I forget to mention that there is a potential for two £100 EMA bonuses at different points throughout the year? It doesn't take a genius to realise that, across the country, a lot of money could be saved per year.

I believe I also forgot to mention that the only requirement for this free beer money is to turn up to school each day.... :ugh:

Signed, A teenager.... :rolleyes:

[DESPERADO]

Jmp10

I suspect you are new here because you used to be busy as John Prescott's speech-mangler. I may be thick but I genuinely don't understand a word of what you are saying/asking. Perhaps you are using a random word generator, or perhaps you are just trying to be funny and ironic - I just can't tell, sorry.

WRT 'Mental' - dodgy nickname. Met the chap when he was going through the QWI cse when I was instructing on a different type. Always seemed capable and affable but certainly not 'Mental' in the A Partridge style of mentalists. The only thing that struck me was that he, possibly genetically, had a bit of an anti-RAF attitude which I never really understood as we are kind of all in it together in my humble opinion.

I feel a bit sorry for him about all the abuse he is getting here. Yes it was a bit of a 'look at me' moment, but I think the sentiment was from the heart. When you see great organizations that have been the major part of the best years of your life wiped away by the stroke of a politicians pen it could probably have the affect of making you a little self-centred and, officer or not, ask the honest question 'what about me?'. Give the guy a break. The mere thought that the GR4 was about to be wiped out of the RAF has made me question my entire service and whether it was worth it. My guess is that despite the aggressive Harrier-boy exterior this is pretty traumatic stuff for him.

As a great many of the army guys will know, much better than us flyers, killing people for your country requires a fair amount of commitment. If you spend the best years of your life doing this and then one day the new politicians wipe away your team as if they never existed you might wonder why you bothered. I'm bloody depressed and my old chariot is soldiering on for a few years yet. He must be absolutely gutted so spare him and his JFH comrades a thought.

[Firestorm]

As a commercial pilot who has been made redundant I can understand Lt Cdr Ward's reaction quite completely. I have been unemployed as a pilot for almost 2 years, and I have several thousand hours of commercial turbo-prop and jet flying in my log book (no combat or mil flying at all), and I am struggling to get interviews as anything let alone a pilot, and almost no opportunities in the UK, my own home country. Redundancy is a frightening prospect for anyone be they the WEM or WEA or the CO of the Ark Royal, so Lt Cdr Ward's reaction was only human. The fact that his Dad was a Harrier Sky God too, and Sharkey Minor had 140 Afghanistan combat missions in his log book was just too juicy for our impartial and unemotional unsensationalist press, especially the Daily Telegraph who put a great photo of Ward Senior and Minor on the front page!

[Whenurhappy]

Hmm, I think posters are being a little unfair about Lt Cdr Ward. Yes - it was a 'Me' moment, but it was a leitmotif for the state we are in. I am in a similar situation: I have given 2/3rds of my life to the Service of the Crown both at Home and abroad (where I am now serving) and my current tenure looks decidedly iffy and likely to be cut. Moreover, it is unlikely that there will be a suitable appointment for me in the UK. I love what I do and get enormous satisaction of being in the Service. If the PM or a similar worthy turned up to address us and say, en passant, 'you are likely to lose your job, your house, CEA etc etc...', I would take him to task on a personal level, because these cuts suddenly become very visceral and directly affect me and my family. Give the guy a break. He has annuciated the angst many of those serving feel.

[Red Line Entry]

A WO gave me some good advice many years ago:

"Just remember, Sir, when you walk out of the Stn gates for the last time, the RAF doesn't give a monkey's whether you turn left or right"

The hard reality of life is that we take what's owed to us: pay, allowances, housing etc, and in exchange we give our committment, effort and obedience, and sometimes our lives. That's the deal, and we all chose to take it. Anything else (including the provision of specific aircraft types so that we can continue to enjoy flying them) is a bonus.

[seniortrooper]

Red line entry - well said.

There are few occasions where one is able to feather ones nest more so than in the military. Notching up innumerable 'qualifications' en route, it could be said that opportunities for future employment would be greater and not less than the equivalent civilian's career path.
Now add to that the additional golden opportunities that come from flying in the military, being a middle manager, flying jets...and the world really is your 'lobster' :).
For someone like this, in his position, to even doubt what his future holds, suggests a whiff of superciliousness to say the least.

Can you imagine sharing a cockpit with someone like this when it comes to CRM.
I remember a time when airlines wouldn't touch pilots like this (phantom drivers) for this very reason - too dyed in the wool, too old to change.

Maybe he should be worried after all:sad:

[Phil_R]

Anyone else find this whole "dynasty" thing a bit suspicious? I mean, it's like the US-bloody-Government. Isn't the redheaded red arrow chick a second gen, too?

P

[jindabyne]

Rather like his father's 'welcome' to Black Buck in 1982, the chap opened his mouth without thinking. As a senior officer with valuable operational experience, at age 38 Ward is (was?) more than likely to have enjoyed predictable and continued service in related ground appointments - unlike a number of his less fortunate colleagues. And, as ever, serving officers are not allowed 'me' outbursts. Well said Foldie - move on Lt Cdr. That is not to say that I do not lament the Harrier's demise, regardless of justification.

[Pontius Navigator]

Notching up innumerable 'qualifications' en route, it could be said that opportunities for future employment would be greater and not less than the equivalent civilian's career path.

Just to clarify, these qualifications are often not recognisable in the civilian world. More recently that has changed or is changing with degree courses partly or fully funded etc.

Now my qualifications include catering for up to 17 people with full English, tea or coffee, at 200 feet in turbulence. While I have no ambition, or need to work in McMs, I doubt that they would recgonise the qualification either :)

OTOH while BA may also have turned me down, the Irish O'wizard may well have taken me on as a FA instructor.:}

[Big Tudor]

seniortrooper
Notching up innumerable 'qualifications' en route, it could be said that opportunities for future employment would be greater and not less than the equivalent civilian's career path.

That is not the experience of many ex-servicemen, check with any branch of SSAFA, British Legion, etc if you want the facts. A recent report on the BBC has shown that ex-servicemen struggle to find gainful employment even though they are at least as qualified as civilian contenders. Case in point was a former soldier who had project managed big budget assignments in the Army. The response from civilian employers was largely 'no relevance to civilian projects'.

Regarding the individual in question, he was presented with the opportunity to talk to the PM, something 'call me Dave' likes to tell us he is all for. Just because he has put his point across in person he is now being vilified and cast as a traitor. How many others would have had the moral courage to voice concerns knowing the amount of vitriol that would likely follow? And yes, it was a personal concern. Just because you hold the Queen's commission does not stop you having feelings about your own life, family and future.

[jindabyne]

he is now being vilified and cast as a traitor.

Oh dear. Nothing of the kind old chap. Talk about missing the point ---

[Obi Wan Russell]

Quote: "he is now being vilified and cast as a traitor."

Who? David Cameron? Yes quite right too!:ok:

[bast0n]

Just because you hold the Queen's commission does not stop you having feelings about your own life, family and future.

But it does mean you should keep your mouth firmly shut when in the public eye.

Full stop.

[The Magic Rat]

Quote:
"But it does mean you should keep your mouth firmly shut when in the public eye.

Full stop."

Bollocx$

So you're saying Officers should all be programmed robots, wake up FFS.

History repeating itself there and not a pretty one at that.....

In these current times, we should question every decision our politicians make. As much as it changes my life, I for one support (some of) the decisions made this week. I know why they've been made and, as unpalatable as they are, accept them and the reasons behind them.

Kris Ward spoke out when we were all pi$$ed off and some people cant see the Light of Day. Different generation.

If I was a Harrier jockey I'd feel the same way. I'm not RN, I don't know him, but respect him for this act.

PS:

Stick the spelling mistakes up your ar$e FW.

[Easy Street]

So you're saying Officers should all be programmed robots, wake up FFS


No. Making emotional points in public forces decision-makers onto the back foot, where they don't like to be. People don't take kindly to being embarrassed and it will not help you in the long run. This is true when dealing with anyone above you in the command chain.

A good officer performs robust analysis and makes strongly-reasoned points in private correspondence or conversation through the chain of command. If his arguments are good he will be listened to. If they are weak or based purely on emotion or instinct he will be ignored.

It can be frustrating for subordinates to see their leaders toeing the party line in public. What goes on behind closed doors is different. For an example you need to look no further than SDSR. CAS maintained media silence throughout the whole process and the RAF has come out pretty well thanks to his behind-the-scenes efforts. The Navy fought and defended their corner very publically and have been hit hard - no carrier air for 10 years!! On a smaller scale, your OC blustering away to one of his superiors might cheer you up for a minute, but it will do you absolutely no good beyond that.

[david parry]

Sharkys Lad, is the only serving wafu. That i know of,who has voiced, an opinion on the Demise of fixed wing flying in the FAA. The deafening silence, from his superior officers, is an embarrassment, and disgrace to all ex and serving Wafus. Ps Wish you could have been my DO Sharky;)

[jindabyne]

MR,

First it was this at1755 --
Foldie,

Fair enough...about the spelling mistake anyway.

Now it's this at 2326 --
PS:

Stick the spelling mistakes up your ar$e FW.
Must be the nectar

some people cant see the Light of Day. Different generation.
I'd say same light of day, regardless of generation.

As much as it changes my life, I for one support (some of) the decisions made this week. I know why they've been made and, as unpalatable as they are, accept them and the reasons behind them.
Well said!!!

[seniortrooper]

David Parry: by all means stand up and be counted. The FAA will be decimated by the news on Monday. However why the: "Harrier Pilot" and the "140 missions in A"??
What's wrong with standing up for the FAA and stating the facts that their future is uncertain instead of me, me, me....:bored:

[foldingwings]

Big Tudor,

Many hearty congratulations!

You must take the first prize for:

he is now being vilified and cast as a traitor

That, my boy, takes the biscuit as the most irresponsible and ridiculous comment ever placed on an Internet Forum!

FW

Jindabyne,

First it was this at1755 --
Quote:
Foldie,

Fair enough...about the spelling mistake anyway.
Now it's this at 2326 --
Quote:
PS:

Stick the spelling mistakes up your ar$e FW.

I missed Ratty's 1755 comment, I guess he must have had second and negative thoughts; poor lad!

FW

Easy Street,

I applaud your very sensible and erudite comment (#130)

FW

Ratty,

Did you, perchance, go through DIOT Cranwell between 1997/00? If so, I send my apologies, I should have been more diligent!

FW

Just found a role for Harrier pilots:

Nuclear submarine HMS Astute runs aground off Skye

Sounds like an opportunity for Drivers Airframe (Harrier) in the near future!

Foldie:cool:

[Big Tudor]

foldingwings,

Really? Pray enlighten us as to why, in your obviously humble opinion, my comment rates as That, my boy, takes the biscuit as the most irresponsible and ridiculous comment ever placed on an Internet Forum!
That's quite an acheivement and one that I am sure my parents would be proud of! :hmm:
Before I go any further, I am not YOUR BOY, so kindly keep your condescending comments off the keyboard.

Outside legal spheres, the word "traitor" may also be used to describe a person who betrays (or is accused of betraying) their own political party, nation, family, friends, ethnic group, team, religion, social class, or other group to which they may belong
I would say that comments on this thread about Lt. Cdr. Ward having no consideration for his fellow officers or subordinates fall firmly into this category, wouldn't you?

vilify [ˈvɪlɪˌfaɪ]
vb -fies, -fying, -fied (tr)to revile with abusive or defamatory language; malign
Again, I would say some of the direct comments made about Ward match this description pretty closely.

[xenolith]

BIG TUDOR

Quite right my boy, you tell him.......

[cornish-stormrider]

Did someone order some popcorn? this could be an enjoyable little moment.


From an erks perspective - only erks are allowed to put foot in mouth publicly like Sharkey jr......

Occifers do better. The fact is - he comes across as a selfish plank. regardless of motives and at least the RN would have given him a desk to fly rather than booting him.

Still think of all those navy engineers (air) who are suddenly left with much less of a career path -

And to tie this into all those other jobs threads - the boss is the first one in, last one out and does more that his staff. any manager can come and drive a desk but managers are not boss. From this short media led witchhunt would I like to work for Lt Cdr Ward - hmmmmmmm, no

[david parry]

A fighter falls prey to politics - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/8081181/A-fighter-falls-prey-to-politics.html)

[jindabyne]

From that article

“It would be easier to accept this decision if the Tornado was a better fighter,” says the pilot. “But the simple truth is that it isn’t. You need three Tornados to do the same work as one Harrier in Afghanistan. Where’s the sense in that?”

And with that, all credibility is lost!

[Widger]

Jindabyne,

You make the comment that the statement has no credibility but do not back up the 'banter' with facts. Would you care to elaborate, based on your extensive Military experience over the last 5 years or use the knowledge gained during your service in Afghanistan since Harrier was deployed there or are your comments based on nothing other than a RAF centric, myopic view of Defence based on chatting with some mates during your retirement?

[nigegilb]

It is very tiresome watching you lot pulling lumps out of one pilot who had the balls to confront the PM over some woeful decision making concerning cuts to the armed forces. Are you doubting that there might now be a very real morale problem on the Harrier force? Do you think it right and proper to have axed the Harrier force?

Why not consider deploying F-18s on to the new carriers as a stop gap measure if Britain is serious about power projection?

India was not allowed to have access to the Blue Vixen Radar, (with AMRAAM capability), when it expressed interest in buying FA2s recently and the deal fell through. It just highlights the level of sophistication and capability that has been tossed away and now the rest of the Harrier fleet is about to be thrown away with it.

I see all this, as another episode of the degradation of Britain as an important world power and inevitably leading to a reliance on other european defence capability. We don't need any lessons on how unreliable that can be. More importantly for the RAF, is that it might just have reached a tipping point. Morale is a funny thing, when the redundancies start rolling in, we should not forget that we are very much at war in Afghanistan.

Could you blame personnel for having one eye on the door? Furthermore, I am amazed that there isn't more questioning of the useless leadership at higher levels that has been endured by the Royal Air Force in the last decade. You lot would rather lay in to a war hardened Harrier pilot. `Be interesting to see how many missions his "leaders" have actually completed.

[jindabyne]

Widger

You need three Tornados to do the same work as one Harrier in Afghanistan.
Acknowleding my geriatric credentials, I nevertheless believe that the 3:1 argument does not bear scrutiny, nor does it require recent service or in-theatre experience to support that opinion. There is also more than adequate comment in previous posts to 'back up my banter', but thank you for your observations - my mates will be amused.

[david parry]

www.yorkshirepost.co.u...6593647.jp (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/opinion/Eric-Grove-Navy-under-attack.6593647.jp)

[Widger]

Jinda,


I am sure they will.............I will watch to see who is smiling. It is valid that the original comment about 3:1 posted by someone else was crude, but if we are talking about the manpower, engineering effort, cost (including future engine upgrades) and associated support to achieve Fe@R, then we indeed do have a valid debate, which it is very easy to 'cuff-off' without supplying any facts. It is a sad fact that much of the chat on these forums, is ill informed and consists of 'you are talking @@@@@@' rather than supplying evidence. Unfortunately much of the evidence could of course, not be provided on such a public forum but, there are some on Pprune, who quite clearly have access to such evidence and it is relatively easy to identify who they are as opposed to the enthusiast or the retired Officer who is being fed single service Dogma and propoganda, without the benefit of an opposing view.

Of course, as always, no offence intended

:ok:

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

nigegilb.

Re 'power projection'. Is it not about time we gave up on 'projecting power' at other countries?

We like it not when they 'project' power at us. In fact, recently we've been attacking them before they even did it, just in case they were thinking of it. Which they may well not have been.

Frankly, I think we've 'projected' enough power over the years and it's about time we knocked it on the head.

It's not big , not clever, pisses a lot of folk off and we can't afford it anyway.

Time to lie low for a bit methinks and not before time.

[david parry]

Sock it to them Sharkey;) Two generations of Harrier pilots attack David Cameron over jets | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/19/harrier-jet-pilots-david-cameron)

[ghostnav]

It is sad to see anyone attacking fellow service personnel and then fighting between themselves as to whose toys are better than the other.

We are losing other capabilities than just a specific fast jet type that are as important. Pilots can get a job anywhere - if they are prepared to get off their asses and go look. Other, more specialist individuals will have more difficulty.

A thought for those who will have redundancy forced on them might be better use of your time.

[nigegilb]

Well, BBF, I immediately think of Op Barras when you describe the futility of our desire to project power round the world. An incredible rescue of Royal Irish Rangers who were reportedly raped and tortured by their captors. Ask them if it is a good idea for Britain to retain this capability. In the preceeding weeks Illustrious, Ocean and Sea Harriers were all involved in Op Palliser. I was humbled when I met people from Sierra Leone who were so thankful to British forces for bringing peace to their country.

My opposition to the invasion of Iraq is on the record from the very beginning.
Sadly it is now being used by people like yourself as an excuse to emasculate our war fighting capability. Cameron voted to invade Iraq and also voted to deploy to Helmand. Lay off the Harrier mate, he probably knows a bit more than a career politician about the subject.

Most experts cannot make sense of what we are left with after the axe has fallen. I have to agree, strategic my arrse......

[maxred]

BB - spot on with your post. The real issue here is that the 'population' has been so totally stuffed by the political leadership of the past 15 years. We are only now picking up the pieces. We are led by a 'not fit for purpose' lot of miscreants. Unfortunately ''we'' are left to get on with the mess, that they created. The guys at the top of the defence sectors, are only carrying out the ministers instructions. Some may be good and well meaning individuals, others may not, however, it is their decisions that now creates the mayhem we see, and the 'discussions' on this forum. The harrier bloke stated his piece - well done - if only more of us had the balls to stand up and state what we really feel regarding the method that this country carries out its business - at home and abroad.

[david parry]

Ghostnav post 79 and 101 re your "A thought for those who will have redundancy forced on them might be better use of your time"

[Aim between the eyes]

I know Kris and he is a nice genuine guy. Yes, he didn't choose his words as carefully as he should have done. But then again, we've all seen people being shafted by the media in some form or other - hence why I refuse to speak to them anymore! To be fair emotions are pretty fraught in Cott/Witt and people are genuinely fearing for their jobs post April next year. Cut him some slack guys, he has two families he is worried about one at home and the family that is JFH. Everyone in JFH feels betrayed by CAS and his cronies who did play the long game after taking control of the FA2s into what was 3Gp. The writing was on the wall from then on, especially with F***wit Admirals who allowed the RAF to cancel the FA2 (he is married to princess Anne now). As usual we got on with it and flew the GR instead, a highly capable aircraft but single role. But again CAS wins and that too is axed.

The telegraph article is misleading. Yes CAS did put the GR4 into Afg to replace the Harrier so that it would be an easy decision to cancel it. In one fell swoop it caused chaos for the RN FW community for the next 8 years. IMHO there wont be an RN FW community by the time the Lightning (or whatever we are left with after the 2015 SDSR) comes into service. I still cant believe that the Typhoon isn't in front-line service yet (and I don't mean UKQR) when the damn thing flew as a prototype in 1986! It should be in Afg now but isn't because of the reasons above, or maybe that was a ploy to keep GR4 too.... Well done the MoD for taking 25 years to bring a 4th gen fighter into service for 5th gen prices! However, the article says 1 Harrier is as good as 3 GR4. Of course I don't agree with that, but I will say that 1 Harrier is miles better than 1 GR4 at what we are doing in Afg. They are there to do Close Air Support, a role the Tornado was never intended for. The main reason that the Harrier is better in this environment is because it can carry mixed loads of weapons, fly slower (to see what you're after) and can still turn. It can come back to the base with greater asymmetry as it doesn't have to drop pairs of weapons off in order to keep the aircraft balanced. Why do you think the USMC love it so much and are using it in Afg to augment the A10s? I'm not attacking the GR4 which I think is probably one of the finest IDS jets in the world, but it was never intended to be used for what it is doing now. Just my opinion, which no doubt you lot will poo poo anyway.... :rolleyes:

ABTE :ok:

[Rigger1]

I wonder what the outcome would have been (in service) had a junior rank posed such a crass and impertinent question?

[WildRover]

Who cares - he asked a sensible maybe selfish question because he could. Well done him.

Maybe more of you should do the same instead of sitting back and excepting the cuts.

The French wouldn't write rhetoric they would get on with a plan of cation and stop these defence cuts - especially Harrier.

Stand up and stop it.

[dogstar2]

Good job Mental. Perhaps it may have come across as a little selfish but the simple fact remains this man stood up to the PM when no-one else appears to be doing so. We are losing a major part of our defence capability for a decade and this came, not out of a true defence review, but from a crazed round of defence cuts. Op missions have been flown from the carrier in the Balkans, Iraq, Sierra Leone in the last 2 decades by both RN and RAF Harriers proving the value of the carrier. The Harrier was also put to great use in Kandahar when the runway was too damaged for any other jet was able to fly from it. I was there when an A10 diverted in and was stuck for a week as there was not enough runway for him to get out yet the Harrier continued to operate with full bomb loads using its VSTOL capabilities. He eventually got out on minimum fuel. In fact the runway was not suitable for other fighter types for approx 2 years while it was being rebuilt. Able to operate from the sea and from short strips and field sites, surely this kind of flexibility is required at a time when the World is an uncertain place and there is not much cash around. The Harrier can do a whole range of jobs other jets cannot. We will now have to rely upon the US to come to our aid should anything need sorting in our sphere of influence when host nation support is not available. Oh and we have already had to rely on the yanks for the other crazed decision to get rid of our MPA capability. This is the thin end of the wedge, in 5 years, the government will probably just sell off the carriers anyway.

Before this cost cutting exercise we had already endured years and years of under investment and poor procurement. Much of the latter is due to politicians influencing what we can buy and also introducing crazy rules about who can sell to defence. If you really want agility, buy off the shelf and spend real money on developing hard contracts which do not allow wiggle room which results in delivery late and over budget.

[Rigger1]

Well done him!. Crap.

He is a serving Officer and as such needs to act like one, most of us have job security issues, many people in the industry have been unemployed before and who gave a toss about them, no one, you just have to man up and get on with it. For a serving Officer to ask the Prime Minister what he did is just wrong, on so many levels.

And yes I’ve been unemployed, with far bleaker prospects than he has, tough welcome to life, no one ever said it would be easy, time to grow a pair.

[nigegilb]

Would you rather he was just as obsequious and ineffective as HIS own very senior officers? Who are, of course, awfully good at cynical manipulation (RE Tornado in this case). I wonder if they were also the ones who told Cameron how well the Typhoon was performing in Afghan?

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Nigegilb

I suspect we'd agree on a few things. I'm sorry to see the Harriers (and Shars too) gone.

Shame about the Nimrods, Jags and Sentinel too. The carriers/ JSF issue is just comical and as for 'renewing' the Trident boats? Let's not even go there.

We are no longer, sadly, in charge of our Empire and I think we ought to wind our collective military necks in.

UK forces are paid for from tax- by taxpayers (and soldiers, sailors and airmen are NOT taxpayers, whatever 'deductions' you see on the payslip).

We are paying for Defence. Not offence, policekeeping, Nation building or plain Foreign intervention/ adventure.

Harriers on Carriers do little to protect the Country that could not be done by UK land based aircraft.
On the other hand, they're ideal for a bit of 'power projection- like the new carriers....

I don't blame this pilot for shooting his mouth off, hey- I'd probably do the same in his shoes, maybe even utter the immortal words....

I think Cameron is re-jigging the UK military Forces with a less interventionist policy very much in mind.

There are many who'd support him on that score.

[Vertico]

An excellent post!

The Harrier can do a whole range of jobs other jets cannot.

That is its outstanding and unique contribution to our defence capabilities. Not just the ability to use a fragment of runway, but to adapt quickly to previously unforeseen needs. In 1981, RAF Harrier squadrons were trained primarily to support the Army by taking out Russian tanks steaming westwards across the North German Plain. (With 1 Sqn having a supporting role in the mountains and snows of Norway.)

Then, in 1982, a wholly unplanned and unexpected need to support an invasion task force in the Falklands. Brilliant improvisation, mods such as fitting sidewinder for self-defence developed in an impossibly short time, INAS system adapted to shipborne role, etc.

After that, as you said, Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Iraq and now Afghanistan. Which politicians or planners foresaw any of those events?

And now, we're told that we won't need any carrier borne jets for at least the next 10 years. The mind boggles. (And forget the smokescreen about being able to operate Frog/Yank aircraft off our new white elephants. The Frogs have a long history of unreliability in "cooperative" ventures and the perennial isolationist streak in the US makes them equally unreliable in time of crisis.)

Reminds me of the political money-saving idea after WW1 that there would be no major war for at least 10 years so that capital spending on the Forces was unnecessary. That principle rolled forward right into the mid-1930s before resources were at last devoted to rearmament - in the very nick of time. What makes today's politicians think they have any more reliable view of what the next 10 years holds by way of "unexpected" threats to the UK's security?

[nigegilb]

BBF, just want to pull you up on a point you made about Cameron being less interventionist, hence the need to re-jig (but still keep the Carriers..).

Frankly. I don't believe a word of it. True Conservatives would have voted against the invasion of Iraq in 2003, but this set of Conservative MPs voted like sheep, to go along with the Prime Ministerial spin and lies because they were too afraid to rock the establishment boat. (Intelligence Community, Govt etc). This Conservative party also voted to support US involvement in Afg in 2001, (I had no prob with that one) and again voted to fight a war on two fronts by supporting a poorly thought out and extremely costly deployment to Helmand in 2006. Support was also given for the Kosovo war and other Balkan actions.

Why should we believe a word Cameron says about being less interventionist when on every occasion he was personally given to display his anti-interventionist beliefs he did exactly the opposite?

Worse still, (for his credibility), he is an Atlanticist and he is surrounded by Atlanticists. Fox, Osborne, Gove, Hague to name a few. On his recent visit to America his servile, unquestioning approach was on display when he stated that Great Britain was the junior party to America in the first two years of the war. During this period, an American citizen who wanted to come here and fight Nazis had to give up his American citizenship!

Sorry, I don't believe a word anything Cameron is saying. This review is entirely Treasury led and the next time America shouts jump, I see absolutely nothing in Cameron to suggest his response will be anything other than how high..When Hillary Clinton expressed concern about the depth of British defence cuts the Tories immediately looked to sooth and reassure. Might be an idea to remain useful to the Americans in the process..

Lt Cdr Ward, was quite right to launch a verbal assault on Cameron, a well chosen target in my view.

[downsizer]

If you think its a good idea for serving members of HM Forces to lambast the PM in public why didn't you do the same reference your (correctly founded) concerns about foam when you were still serving?

[albatross]

"He asked a sensible maybe selfish question because he could. Well done him."

I think that was spot on.
You have concerns ask---why not?"

[Wrathmonk]

corporal manslaughter

Snigger! Is he in the same wegiment as General Hindsight?;)

[baffman]

What a Blimpish fuss about a perfectly reasonable and understandable question from an individual member of the armed forces - nothing to do with rank - at a public question and answer session arranged by the MoD and at which the media were present at MoD invitation.

If you don't want awkward questions, don't arrange such events.

Personally, I thought the Prime Minister's response was good, and I enjoyed the wry smile from the SoS.

[downsizer]

NG

The point I was making was that you applaud him for berating a politician in public, yet when you were serving you did not circumvent your entire CoC and berate a politician in public on a more serious matter. I am in little doubt that in your role on "the flight" that you would have had opportunity to do so.

Essentially I'm confused why you think it's acceptable for serving people to behave like that when you didn't do it yourself? And IMO would have been right to do so.

[nigegilb]

DS, did I not explain clearly enough? I circumvented the entire CoC by opening up a channel of communication with SoS Defence. LtCdr Ward got something off his chest but the decision to scrap Harrier had already been taken. It is not for me to say what he achieved, but Cameron must have found it useful to get the thoughts of a pilot with frontline experience. More is the pity that he didn't have an open channel direct to the frontline before giving the defence cuts his approval..We now have a dogs dinner on our hands as a consequence.

There is too much cynicism on display at the higher levels of command. All they appear to be good at is re-arranging the deck chairs. In this case the RAF think a strategic victory has been won (over RN). In all reality we are now an international laughing stock. Carriers with no aircraft for at least a decade?

Some victory..

[downsizer]

Sorry. I thought you said you got your father to write to the SoS not yourself. Obviously I misinterpreted that.

[ratpackgreenslug]

I hesitate (momentarily) to float this to the top, but:

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, and does 'Utterly, Utterly Useless' ring any bells? If not, it should. I know, RAF not FAA: but still referenced to the same horribly limited 1960s spam can.

Time for you to go. Bye bye. Don't let the closing door knock you in the arse. Etc, etc. You've had one hell of a run, a quintessential triumph of bull**** over attainment.

I detect something of the miasma of Black Buck here.

How much will you be missed? Remove your hand from a bucket of water. See the imprint? That much.

[Finningley Boy]

I hesitate (momentarily) to float this to the top, but:

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, and does 'Utterly, Utterly Useless' ring any bells? If not, it should. I know, RAF not FAA: but still referenced to the same horribly limited 1960s spam can.

Time for you to go. Bye bye. Don't let the closing door knock you in the arse. Etc, etc. You've had one hell of a run, a quintessential triumph of bull**** over attainment.

I detect something of the miasma of Black Buck here.

How much will you be missed? Remove your hand from a bucket of water. See the imprint? That much.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=6141147) http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6141147&noquote=1)

Gotcha!:ok:

FB:)

[Easy Street]

Whoa! That was miles above "Emergency" banter - more like "Mutually Assured Destruction" banter!

[ORAC]

http://yourforum.gr/InvisionBoard/uploads/1223682200/med_gallery_1_6_2957.jpg

[Utrinque Apparatus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnuKRb_92BM