Turkish Must choose between B747-8 and A380

[Brutus 5]

Quote:
Turkish Airlines chairman Hamdi Topçu said Wednesday the carrier will decide on a new large widebody jet order by year-end, choosing between Boeing's new 747-8 jumbo jet and the Airbus A380 superjumbo.

Topçu spoke at a delivery ceremony at the Future of Flight aviation center in Everett. Turkish Airlines picked up the first of a dozen 777-300ERs and flew it away to Istanbul with a large contingent of airline staff and families aboard.

He said a technical team is evaluating the two giant airplanes and should finalize its analysis by the end of November. If the carrier chooses the 747-8, he said, he'll order between 5 and 10 of the 467-seater jets. The A380 is a bigger airplane, seating about 555 passengers.

The 747-8 is listed for sale at $300 million. However, aircraft valuation firm Avitas estimates that after standard discounts the real market price is about $166 million.

The A380 is listed at $346 million, with an Avitas-estimated real market value of about $192 million.

In December 2008, in the midst of the global downturn, Turkish Airlines anounced its intention to buy 35 widebody and 70 narrow body aircraft to modernize and expand its fleet through 2023.

Last year the airline ordered the dozen 777s, all of which should be delivered by next August. It also ordered a dozen Airbus A330 jets, the first two of which were delivered this month.

Turkish has also ordered 20 narrowbody 737s from Boeing and 20 narrowbody A320s from Airbus.

[Payscale]

Let the exodus begin...;)
Anyone there already with a heads up?
:ok: or:=

[TomWittmann]

Given the data, more or less similar cost by seat at equal configuration, a slightly lower fuel cosumption, a slightly higher speed, which means that that at any passenger load under 467, the B747-8I will have lower global costs, the only advantage of the A380 would be in the range of 468 - 525 passenger. And even in this case, given the difference in operating costs, 7 flights B747-8 in the high season would cost roughly the same as 6 with A 380.

And obviously, the vast majority of airports capable to operate the B747-8I ( isubstituting to the older phased-out B747-100-400 ) will have very little destinies needing more than 467 passengers and could cover such, if necessary as said, by increasing the flight frequency (which obviously is advantageous for the public), or adding some flights with a smaller aircraft as the B787

As for a "cattle-transporter" version for 800 very low paying passenger (only such customers would accept to fly in it), assuming that the logistical problems could be solved and the certification obtained, obvioysly the market would be very small, especially because the total amount paid by such passengers, even if more numerpus, would be much lower as by the ones in 3-class configuration

And of course,
- airlines in homes not already having MEGA-AIRPORTS upgraded for
the A380 will not be able to use it without disproportionally high upgrade
costs.
- airlines at Mega airport homes could not use it for destinations other
than another Mega-Airports (this being the reason Lufthanda ordered
both!)

Therefore, only the Mega-Airports based airlines could use eventually the A380 for flights to other similar and factually already have bought A380s, some of them as Emirates, in excessive quantities.

So, as for Turkish Airlines, there is no real market for many more A380. The attraction of the $ 30,000 first class for Oil potentates and Chinese millionaires is also already considered in the existing orders and after the economy in China begins to tighten and the source of the wealth of the millionaires begins to be investigated by the authorities , few would be willing to help the latter by showing of!!

Objectively, the real competition for the B747-8I is for many airlines the B777-300(ER) and future larger versions of the B787 and (if and when available), of the A350.

[Jumeirah James]

I thought they were supposed to decide at the 'end of last year?'. How come there's another years grace on this decision?

[GlueBall]

The A380 would make sense when 500+ people decide to travel to Turkey on the same day at the same time. ...And not everyday is Christmas.

[surely not]

The A380 is making all the airlines who use it very happy with it's revenue earning abilities. Passengers seem to love it, and certainly I enjoyed my journey in economy on it. It has a 'wow' factor that Boeing with the 747-8 can only dream about.

Also the 747-8i is going to give any airport that hasn't upgraded to Code F stands a big problem as its tail will be overhanging the taxiways when on stand. It is longer than the A380-800 and this will need to be addressed.

It is noticeable that most Anti A380 comments are predominantly from members from USA. Sour grapes is it boys?

[etops777]

747-8 is only a 5 meters extension from 747-400 that makes it shorter than A340-600 and about the same length as B777-300. It won't have any problem flying to anywhere where it currently handles 777-300 and A346

[Highlevel390]

@etops777: You are wrong mate!
A340-600: 75,36m
A380-800: 72,30m
B777-300: 73,90m
B747-8 : 76,4m
So, the new Jumbo is the longest! Not even speaking of the ´wow´factor, which is gonna be tremendous...
Cheers:ok:

[puff m'call]

Ummmm "surley not"

Down load a pic of both the Fat bus and the 747-8I, put them both side by side and I think it will be quite obvious which one has the "wow factor"

The Fat bus looks like a 340 with Downs syndrome and the 747 is an object of beauty, how an airliner should look.

Not too difficult was it!!!!

[surely not]

Dear Puff m'call it is all in the eye of the beholder. Personally I think the new 747 has lost the good looks of the 747-400 and is far from beautiful. It is fine that you don't agree, we probably have different taste in women as well, and no doubt you will consider yours better than mine and I will disagree on that as well :E

The 'wow' factor I was referring to was to do with the inside of the aircraft more than mere external frippery. It is exceptionally quiet both on the ground, on take off and in the air; even the economy cabin has a really good ambience to it, and it was a very stable and comfortable ride.

Thanks Highlevel390 I knew etops was incorrect but didn't have the comparison figures to hand.

[puff m'call]

Wouldn't really know about Y class on the Fat Bus old chap, only travelled J and F, and with 76 J class seats it's really not that nice!!! I can say from experience that the 777 is a much nicer fit in J.

[K_9]

It is noticeable that most Anti A380 comments are predominantly from members from USA. Sour grapes is it boys?
It is also noticeable that most pro-A and anti-B comments come from members from EU. Sour grapes is it boys?

Dear Puff m'call it is all in the eye of the beholder. Personally I think the new 747 has lost the good looks of the 747-400 and is far from beautiful. It is fine that you don't agree, we probably have different taste in women as well, and no doubt you will consider yours better than mine and I will disagree on that as well :E

The 'wow' factor I was referring to was to do with the inside of the aircraft more than mere external frippery. It is exceptionally quiet both on the ground, on take off and in the air; even the economy cabin has a really good ambience to it, and it was a very stable and comfortable ride.
So you've flown on the 747-8I, then?

[Stratosphere6000]

So you've flown on the 747-8I, then?

Exactly!!!

Anyway to use the famous phrase again...If it's Boeing I am a going...If it's the Scare Bus I'd rather take the bus....:D

And this is from some1 who has extensive hours on both and have been flyin the scarebus widebody's for the last 5yrs....:ok:

[surely not]

K_9 what does your comment So you've flown on the 747-8I, then have relevance to?

The A380 is in service and the 747-8i isn't so the answer isn't too hard to guess. However the 747-8i is a stretched and revamped OLD airframe and it is unlikely to be significantly quieter inside than the 747-400. Whereas the A380 is a brand new design and it is amazingly quiet in the passenger cabin.

Having travelled on the 747 and the A380 I have a clear preference for the A380, and I know that most of those I have spoken to who have also flown on the A380 feel the same way.

Talking with people who work in 3 airlines operating the A380 they all say that if you put the A380 on a route it grows the passenger numbers at the expense of their other flights and/or competitors and the yield is stronger so it makes more money.

Gosh Puff you must be tewibbly important if you only travel 'F' and 'J' :rolleyes: Am I supposed to feel inferior because I travelled 'Y' class?

[K_9]

K_9 what does your comment have relevance to?

The A380 is in service and the 747-8i isn't so the answer isn't too hard to guess. However the 747-8i is a stretched and revamped OLD airframe and it is unlikely to be significantly quieter inside than the 747-400. Whereas the A380 is a brand new design and it is amazingly quiet in the passenger cabin.

Having travelled on the 747 and the A380 I have a clear preference for the A380, and I know that most of those I have spoken to who have also flown on the A380 feel the same way.

Talking with people who work in 3 airlines operating the A380 they all say that if you put the A380 on a route it grows the passenger numbers at the expense of their other flights and/or competitors and the yield is stronger so it makes more money.

Gosh Puff you must be tewibbly important if you only travel 'F' and 'J' :rolleyes: Am I supposed to feel inferior because I travelled 'Y' class?
You are making claims that the A380 is quieter than the 747-8. You need to have flown on both before you can make that claim. The 787 is very quiet but I haven't flown on the A350 so I won't try to make a comparison between them or say things like "A350 is loud inside!". The fact is that the 747-8 has GEnx-based engines and is about 70% new design.

[White Knight]

with 76 J class seats it's really not that nice!!! I can say from experience that the 777 is a much nicer fit in J.

And F is definitely far better than any of the 777s - the 8 seat F cabin on some of them is like a horrible little boxroom:{ just from experience:ok::} I thought the 380 F to be excellent, although I wholeheartedly agree about the crappy J seats - too crammed and plasticky:hmm:

[K_9]

And F is definitely far better than any of the 777s - the 8 seat F cabin on some of them is like a horrible little boxroom:{ just from experience:ok::} I thought the 380 F to be excellent, although I wholeheartedly agree about the crappy J seats - too crammed and plasticky:hmm:
You are aware that the airline purchases its interiors (seats included) from a supplier other than the airframer, right?

[Fred Garvin M.P.]

For a bigger guy, the 777 J class is horrible. The seat design and size only fits for someone under 6 feet. 380 J class is much better. Economy on the 777 is much more comfortable with the kiddos than the 380.

Not to mention, with the smaller fleet and better schedules, cabin crew seem to be much friendlier and helpful on the 380 right now than the 777. I commute back and forth to the states and that's just my two cents on riding on both of them each month. (That's eating crow too bc I'm 777 driver).

The funny thing is, every now and again, I will take Delta or United and get upgraded. You guys are bitching about a product that is FAR superior to any business or first class product offered from any US airline right now. I just rode a Delta 767 to AMS to catch EK back, no in seat entertainment, in business class. Plus, the cabin crew made me nauseated to even look at (old hags).

Trust me, either one is just freaking fine.

[JWP2010]

Whatever the argument about aesthetics, the 'Down's Syndrome' comment by puff m'call is distasteful in the least, and offensive at worst.

[pool]

Comparing interiors is futile. It's by large designed by operators. I can insulate a T7 as much as a 380 and configure its interior with showers, larger pitch and so forth, to match its ride.
The only setback will be, that it will guzzle almost as much fuel as the flying pig. No one really wants that, I guess.
I agree that the 748 is a revamped outdated design, just as much as that the 380 is no revolution, just a blown up 340 with similar overweight.
If Turkish are smart, they'll wait for the upgrade T7 or, if they have enough time, for a 350, if the latter can match promises.
These two aircraft by the way both look much better than both behemoths with four donkeys and heaploads of struts and gears.