BA77 delayed due to death

[dangermouse1977]

Searched the forums and can find nothing on this, in fact there's nothing on the Internet at all, however as I have a colleague on the plane I feel fairly secure in putting it here.

BA 77 service to Luanda that was scheduled to depart yesterday did not depart due to the on-board death of an an asylum seeker who was being returned to AO - there was apparently a struggle involving multiple people and at the end of it he was deceased.
The man concerned was apparently in his early 30s and did not want to leave the UK.

All passengers were taken off the 777 after 90 mins or so, my colleague was accommodated overnight and is just heading back to LHR now, apparently the flight will leave tonight instead.

[411A]

Having flown deportees before, the best alternative is cuffs and (perhaps if needed), leg irons or, in extreme cases, a straight jacket.
Evac problems, you say?
Rubbish, just have a supervisor toss him down the chute, like a sack of potatoes.:}

[airpolice]

Flight will only leave tonight once ALL remaining (about half) pax and original crew have been interviewed and witness statements taken by the Met guys who will be looking at new notebooks by the end of the shift.

This interview process is starting now.

[airpolice]

I wonder who will get stuffed with the bill for this.

The Airline are not to blame, as they don't get much of a choice in accepting deportee pax so it's unfair on them.


The Airport Operator can't be expected to fund this.

[IThink]

I have been on a couple of flights with deportees recently, in fact the last was on Monday. Both, and talking to the immigration man rather consistently, have the person surrounded by the officials in the back rows and the deportee proceeds to scream and moan at the top of their voice in the hope that they will be offloaded.

It is really unsettling to the passengers as in the case on Monday it took 15 mins before push back and 20 mins to take off, only once airborne does the individual shut up.

They have to go of course, but there has to be a better way to get them out, in my view scheduled flights should not be the way!

[Dysonsphere]

Ever seen the movie "Con Air", maybe a spare Herc could be fitted with cages and used instead.

[airpolice]

Maybe we could short circuit the process and not let them into the country in the first place.

I don't know how long the deceased has been in LHR or UK but if it was a recent arrival, the carrier who brought that perwson here needs to take thjem back, and pay the associated costs.

If the AS has been here a while then Immigration should pay the costs, that seems fair.

I don't think the Herc idea is very practical, we'd need to wait for a full load to make it worthwhile.

But..............

Maybe some joined up thinking could get all the apppeals turned down on the same day and do them in Herc sized bunches, sorted by country.


As for distressing the other pax, why would you want to go to a country where the thought of returning makes the natives scream?

[skyfish2]

Who does want to leave the UK, unless your english,of course

[TopBunk]

Having been the captain on several depo flights before; one about 6 years ago resulted in me be very wary.

What I witnessed on that flight was:

1. depo being fine until about 10 yards from the aircraft on the jetway
2. throwing himself on the floor and screaming
3. being manhandled to rear row of seats horizontally
4. throwing himself onto the aisle floor and pleading with me, the captain, by screaming
5. being 'forced' into the seats by several size 11's on the back of his neck, by officers stamping on him while standing on the seat backs either side of him
6. I was advised that as captain I could decline too accept the depo, but that the cost to xyz would be £xx,xxx
[this was prior to pax boarding]
7. I can say that the cost was never a factor
8. We were not full and the last few rows were able to be made vacant
9. The cabin crew were consulted and agreed
10. As IThink said, it all became quiet when the depo realised that it was going to happen regardless

Nonetheless, for me, that set some boundaries, and I think that the government agencies on that day exceeded the boundaries acceptable on commercial flights and (irrespective of the depo's crimes) infringed the law of the land and the rights of the individual.

On reflection, I wish that I had offloaded the party, but, as the saying goes, 'I learned about xxx from that'.

[Capetonian]

I once witnessed a very unpleasant spectacle at CDG, one of the reasons I avoid that excuse for an airport.

A young black woman in handcuffs was being dragged along the floor by 5 or six police officers, she was screaming and shouting, not aggressively but clearly in terror and desperation, presumably being taken to a departure gate.

I've no idea what she'd done, but whatever it was, I think that treating her like that was quite inappropriate and certainly not something the travelling public should be exposed to.

[bingofuel]

Ever seen the movie "Con Air", maybe a spare Herc could be fitted with cages and used instead.

If I remember correctly the prisoners escaped !!!

[robtheblade]

I think I was on that flight. Never been so happy to arrive in Miami.

[TopBunk]

Robtheblade

Not my flight. It was local European, and hence being less than 1 hour, which was a further factor in my decision.

I have flown many DEPO and INADs on longhaul without incident, so flying them on commercial aircraft is not generally an issue.

[Betty girl]

About 20 years ago the Immigration services tried to board a middle aged large Nigerian woman onto our flight to Lagos. The woman fought with the three large men, kicking, biting and pulling as they tried to bring her up the steps with her back arching, as she fought, which made it impossible to move her. In the end she fought so hard they had to give up, for fear of her hurting herself, and put her back in their van.

I spoke with one of the officers and he said that they would try again another day with more staff. He told me that it was fear, of what was going to happen to them when they got to their destination, that caused them to fight so hard. Many countries lock deportees up and treat them badly when they arrive back home.

In Nigeria many years ago it was a common sight to see prisoners in leg iron and chained together sitting in the airport terminal baggage area but have not been to Nigeria for many years so not sure if this still happens.

The whole thing is very sad for both the deceased man and all those involved.

[dangermouse1977]

My colleague is now in Luanda (as am I, thankfully on an Emirates flight) and confirms what was said above.
The flight left a day late, the full compliment of authorities were on the plane before any pax were allowed off (SOCO, Met, CID etc) statements were taken from pax and they were accommodated locally (mostly in the Sofitel) before the flight left 24hrs or so late.
The deceased was removed by coronors in a body bag - rumour on the plane is that he started to struggle, claiming his family were all in the UK and that he hit his head on something during a fall to the floor.

The return leg leaves LAD an hour earlier than normal tonight.

[MikeIW]

As reported in the guardian today.

Security guards accused over death of man being deported to Angola | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/14/security-guards-accused-jimmy-mubenga-death)

[airpolice]

He added: "Knowing that he was being handcuffed, I would say they put far too much [pressure on Mubenga]. He must have been in horrible pain and pressure."


He said Mubenga was not making other complaints but he could hear him heaving as though being sick, adding: "I think they were scared of him ... they put so much pressure on him because he looked a big lad. The three security guards were big blokes as well."


In 2006, Mubenga was convicted of actual bodily harm after a brawl in a nightclub and given a two-year sentence.



Any minute now we can expect someone to suggest that there was no need for the G4S guys at all and the deceased could just have been trusted to go alone.

I don't think he's the kind of person who would have responded to anything other than robust handling and secure restraints.

[Rwy in Sight]

Just a question: do deportees and prisoners are traveling handcuffed during the entire flight from boarding to deplaning?

Rwy in Sight

[Di_Vosh]

do deportees and prisoners are traveling handcuffed during the entire flight from boarding to deplaning?

I'm a regional pilot in Oz. No deportees, obviously, but we take prisoners going from/to court appearances. All are handcuffed (and escorted) for the entire flight.

DIVOSH!

[radeng]

What's the situation in regard to restrained prisoners if there's an emergency evacuation? It could be difficult for anyone handcuffed - especially if it was necessary to use an over-wing exit.

According to the BBC news at 0700, Scotland Yard's homicided squad have taken over the case.

[Di_Vosh]

What's the situation in regard to restrained prisoners if there's an emergency evacuation? It could be difficult for anyone handcuffed - especially if it was necessary to use an over-wing exit.

The prisoner is under guard, and they are handcuffed with hands in front. They're briefed similar to a disabled passenger.

DIVOSH!

[OS_13]

QUOTE:
Just a question: do deportees and prisoners are traveling handcuffed during the entire flight from boarding to deplaning?

Rwy in Sight


No, 99% of the time the cuffs are taken off once the aircraft is in the air and the detainee has calmed down. Usually after the seatbelt sign is turned off after takeoff. The officers don't hold grudges against detainess who have been violent/disruptive. Even ones who have verbally and physically abused officers (spitting, biting, kicking, punching, threats to officers/officers family etc), something which is quite common on these removals and deportations.

I believe the officers that carry out these removals are well trained and would've only used reasonable force, bearing in mind they are being watched by cabin crew and other passengers! Lets not forget the gentleman who sadly passed away had a prior conviction for assault.

[minstermineman]

Maybe we could short circuit the process and not let them into the country in the first place.



What a dumb comment - if that were to happen no one would ever leave their own countries or travel to different countries - ever.

You dont have to be a danger to the public or anyone else to be deported, you might arrive in country with all correct visas and paperwork, then for whatever reason overstay your visit, making you liable for deprtation.

[OS_13]

I think what the guy meant was stopping people entering the country illegally, i.e. at ferry ports on backs of lorries etc and having tighter regulations at visa issuing offices/embassies.

You would only be removed if you overstayed a visa, not deported, and if you agreed to return home voluntarily you wouldnt be escorted or anything, basically just asked to leave.

[radeng]

According to the BBC, the three guards have been arrested and released on police bail.

[Manel]

Dear Airpolice, Dangermouse 1977, TopBunk and others who are interested in this,

I have been following your discussions about this. I have been a member of PPRuNe for several years - I am a reporter with BBC Radio 4. I would very much like to chat to you off-line about what has happened and what has happened in the past.

Jon

[email protected]

[airpolice]

The BBC,

There was a time, and I suppose I am showing my age here, when the BBC was a byword for accurate reporting and journalistic standards. Just like being a GPO trained telephonist, it meant something to have that training and environmental experience behind you.

Sadly, like RAF Scotland where we had at least 8 places to be posted, those days are all behind us now.

There is rarely a day that I don’t see or hear something from the BBC that makes me cringe. That, I think, would make a better topic for Radio 4. Shabby reporting, piss-poor grammar, and a lack of basic education being evident, all very sad to see in the once great BBC.


I’m not sure I have anything to add to this discussion on deportees and handling of them, apart from to say that the only time I had direct contact was years ago, when I had an adult male (allegedly “violent/escaper”) deportee in my custody at Glasgow Airport. I got him at about 17:30 and he went out on an 06:00 to bongo bongo land. I kept him handcuffed for the entire period that he was in my care. I used two sets of cuffs, him restrained and connected to me, and never at any time considered letting him loose.

He was pleasant enough and gave me no trouble, I suspect that was because I told him right at the start that I was not going to let him loose, regardless of what he said or did.

I left one set of handcuffs on him when I sat him in the front row of the aircraft and gave the keys to the guy going away with him. That guy was happy to not be connected while onboard, and that was his choice. I would have handcuffed the prisoner to the seat if I was travelling with him, but I suspect the Captain would have objected to that. Joe Public has no idea of how difficult it is to restrain a resisting person.

As for upsetting the pax, assuming the deportee is going out with a carrier who brought him in, then the airline have only themselves to blame. In the event of the deportee coming in through another route, the Airline need to decide whether or not they should carry him with pax.

Equally, passengers can decide to get off rather than be on an aircraft with a very unwilling passenger, because that's a recipie for things going bad. It would take three big guys to stop one man getting out of his seat and opening door in the upper air.



My main concern with all that has gone on recently, is that there is public money being spent to no great benefit.

[forget]

It would take three big guys to stop one man getting out of his seat and opening door in the upper air.

Eh? Do you really think it's possible for anyone to open a door in flight?

[Rusland 17]

There is rarely a day that I don’t see or hear something from the BBC that makes me cringe...I’m not sure I have anything to add to this discussion on deportees and handling of them, apart from to say that... he went out on an 06:00 to bongo bongo land.Considering the casual racism you display, I'm not surprised you are discontented with the more liberal tone of the BBC.

[TopBunk]

Manel

I am sorry but while I stand by what I say as a precis of the events, I am not prepared to give further details that could identify any further the locations, timing and people involved nor give myself any possible grief/comeback.

[radeng]

A deportee handcuffed to a seat could very well end up dead in the event of a crash. If the accompanying officer got out alive, I suspect he would well end up in a degree of trouble. Handcuffed to the seat, I doubt one could even get into the 'brace' position.

[Eddy]

He told me that it was fear, of what was going to happen to them when they got to their destination, that caused them to fight so hard. Many countries lock deportees up and treat them badly when they arrive back home.then these people should ensure, before boarding a plane, that they're going to be accepted at destination. What they do after acceptane is another issue I don't wish to discuss under my real name.

I have little or no sympathy for depos, for we have the most relaxed immigration policy of any developed country on earth, and only those who really don't need or deserve to be accepted will be sent packing.

[airpolice]

Rusland,

My objection to the way the BBC is operating is not about the "Liberal Tone" as you describe it.


I object to the Licence Fee which I am obliged to pay, even if I made no use of the services of the BBC, being used to pay for a crap service.

Have a read through the online news pages and you will see evidence that there is little in the way of error checking for either typos or factual cock-ups.

I notice that there has been no further input form the BBC man on this point.

[radeng]

I don't pay for a TV Licence, but then, I haven't got a TV. All their letters go in the bin - I'm damned if I'll spend MY money calling them or putting a stamp on a letter, or spending time on replying to them anyway. Unless they pay me at my consultancy rate......

So I suppose I can't complain about them.