Do BA really want my money ?

[Impress to inflate]

In June I booked seats with BA from Brisbane to Aberdeen Scotland to visit family for myself and my three kids. All went well !

Last week I was asked if I could break my trip in London to catch up with my brother for 2 days before continuing on to ABZ, not an unusual request you would think. I tried to change my flight details on-line with no joy so I called them and got the Indian call centre. I put my proposal forward to the lady in Delhi and she said there would be a $481 fee to pay ! I checked on line and it would only cost me $404 to buy new seats 2 days later but to keep the whole thing together on the same booking and ease of life , what the hell ! I gave my credit card number and though nothing more of it.

Last night I checked my booking (as one would) and found 2 flights from LHR to ABZ on 2 different days, the original one and the new one. Today I called BA to find out what was happening and was told there was a problem and they tried to call me. They said there was a big mistake in the cost of the change in flights, yippee I thought, a bit of a refund heading my way but no, they wanted to charge me $1350 to change the flight details !!!! I said that they could take a long walk on a short pier, it wasnt going to happen. A 15 min heated debate took place. I said I where possible fly BA and if they wanted my money in future that they had better change there mind, 19 around the world flights and 100's of domestic and european flights in the last 20 years. I asked for a full refund of my booking from LHR to ABZ. I pointed out I was a Gold FF with Qaintass. They said they would think about it and call me back. I jumped on the phone to my bank to see if BA had charged my visa card and the good news was NO, I asked the bank to refuse any funds to BA but they cant do that, the only way to cancel my card. Bugger.

A few hours later a senior man from BA call centre phoned back, he dug his heels in and said he would refund the whole fair back, I said I didnt want that, just the flight two days later and I would book my own flight on BA.com to ABZ for $404 and noit turn up for the earlier flight, that pushed him over the edge and threatend to cancel all my bookings. I said if that where to happen BA or any oneworld airline would never see an cent or penny from me again. Within 2 mins all done, no extra fee, all changed free of charge.

3 hours of stress over, why is it so bloody hard ?

[airsmiles]

I've had exactly the same experience with BA. As an exec club member you'd think you would get a reasonably helpful person on the end of the phone.

Since 2003 they have consistently had the worst performance of any call centre I the misfortune to use. How can they so consistently get it wrong so badly. They seem to specialise in throwing the rulebook at you and finding ways to stop you achieving what you need to do. I only use them when I have to now because they invariably make my life difficult.

[PAXboy]

We have discussed this type of thing before and, I can shorten it thus:
Mgmt and Board want to save money (not unreasonable)
They identify that some staff are interpreting the rules too leniently and giving the pax too much.
These might be deemed to be 'letting them off the hook' of penalty payments, allowing them to change a booking without charge etc.
They also see that many pax WANT to change their booking, so they have an opportunity to 'monetise' that transaction.
So they tighten the rule book and force all staff to ONLY use the rule book.So if the book says 'x' you get:
Pax HAVE to pay a penalty? They must.
Pax not given flexibility? Tough, it saves money.
Pax not given complimentary upgrade to apologise for earlier mistake?
Etcetera.
If the member of staff exceeds their authority - they can be in big trouble. The fact that the staff has seen all this before and knows the true cost to the airline is irrelevant AND invisible on the balance sheet.Which leads to:
Pax never uses airline again
Pax criticises airline to family and friends
Pax uses up remaining FFMs and leavesBUT the airline does not see that. They might discover that a pax has not booked with them for a year or more - but then it's too late. They key thing (to them) is that they have controlled expenditure and not given away too much for free.

The airline (or any company for that matter) is now in the process of dying - but they still have enough clients coming back to them and enough adverse trading conditions in the world to mask it. This phase may last from two years to twenty but it will already be happening YET not show up on the balance sheet.

This is not just about letting only accountants run the show - but about people who run a business for the stock markets and their own bonus payments - rather than running it for the customers and then reaping the benefits. BUT every large company goes through this, particularly one that is (essentially) 90 years old, as is BA.

In short?
No, there is nothing that you can do and don't waste your time.
Yes, it is sad but it happens all the time and new companies are coming up behind them to take over.
'Twas ever thus.

OK, not so short but it's a very complex sequence with dozens of input factors.

[Capetonian]

PAXboy

Thank you for this. It's a very tidy and fair summary of what is going on, not just at BA, but as you said at many other carriers. I've just had a very similar experience with, no names, let's just say a large German carrier which is in Star Alliance and of which I was, until recently, a top level FF. A call to make a small change was met with obstruction, derision, and almost rudeness.

Eventually I got it done, but via the 'back door' (their call centre is in CPT and I know people who work there!), which is not how it should be.

Which leads to:

* Pax never uses airline again
* Pax criticises airline to family and friends
* Pax uses up remaining FFMs and leaves

[PAXboy]

Thanks Capetonian. To the OP: it is just the natural arc of the lifespan of a company from enthusiastic startup to being taking over or going bust. Consider any company and they will be somewhere on the arc of life.

One of the problems for a company is to know how many clients they have lost. If they don't come back, you don't always know it and then it's too late. If your clients start to realise that complaining doesn't get them anywhere - they will just leave. The company can then report to the board 'We're doing well, complaints are down!"

The only way to find out what the client truly thinks is to either ask them or, better still, ask your staff that work on the front line. THEY KNOW!!! So what you need is a really good working relationship with your staff. Get to know them, be friendly and get them to tell you the bad news and ask them what your precious customers want. Oooops, :uhoh: I think that might be one of the weak links for BA! Whilst it's only a minority of their staff that don't like customers and BA - they are mighty powerful ones and the poisonous relationship is decades old. Therefore, my diagnosis is: Too Late!

One other pointer to BA not knowing how to be in the modern world: the Dirty Tricks operation was some 17/18 years ago and is now part of BA history and documented in books, newspapers and the Internet. Oooops. :ooh:

PS I've just seen this BBC News - Gap scraps new logo after online outcry (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11520930) where GAP have changed their mind on a new logo after one single week - because customers complained. They said they had not consulted properly and will listen more closely. That will have cost them money down the drain - but they listened. Can you imagine the online reaction if web forums, Facebook and Twitter had been where they are today? For those that are not familiar with my posts here, please know that I support the crew as being amongst the best in the world, it's the BA mgmt that I dislike and they are the reason that BA is not my first choice. BA are so last century.

[Globaliser]

Thank you for this. It's a very tidy and fair summary of what is going on, not just at BA, but as you said at many other carriers. I've just had a very similar experience with, no names, let's just say a large German carrier which is in Star Alliance and of which I was, until recently, a top level FF. A call to make a small change was met with obstruction, derision, and almost rudeness.They're all at it. And eventually every passenger will work their way through every airline in the market until there are no airlines left to fly with, and all the airlines will die. And then we can all stay home.

[dufc]

"Which leads to:

* Pax never uses airline again
* Pax criticises airline to family and friends
* Pax uses up remaining FFMs and leaves"

Using BA for the first time in many years in the next two weeks. Only reason is that they have most of the flights on the route I have to fly and I'm also a bit restricted on timings.

Has my boycott hurt them at all? Not really but if many other passengers with my number of annual flights (Plat. status, regular Business Class) moved elsewhere then they really would be in the proverbial....

I don't even bother to price BA flights when I'm planning trips to South America, USA, etc.

/ Jim

[Neptunus Rex]

Some years ago, I went to a Qantas office in Australia to book a flight for my son using my FF miles. I was shown to a phone which was a direct line to Qantas in Sydney. They said that there were no FF seats available on the days I wanted. (I gave three options.)

The next day I went to my travel agent. She had it sorted in minutes, yet there was nothing in it for her, except the good will of a long-term client. She should be training airline management.

[FairlieFlyer]

I have to say I'm unclear why we still believe we are owed this high degree of personalised service and the simple act of threatening to leave will somehow register at Board level and suddenly all will be resolved

BA move millions of people of people a year - all for varying price and service levels. You seem to be hitting the point where you now need to pay more to get the level of service when things go wrong (as they will in such a large operation anywhere)

This isn't the 1960s era of grand touring -you're actually using a highly efficient mode of transport to meet demands of moving vast numbers of people.
Don't be conned by the plush lounge access and personalised greetings as these are one of many illusions to make you think you're are a special customer.:{

Some have tried to do this better but not with any degree of success in the premium market (EOS, Maxjet)and only to ultra rich has made any penetration (Netjets etc) - only the budget market has made any real impact to BA or any other large carrier in a very difficult market.

A few years ago I gave up travelling for work , I grew to hate it. I now use webcams and VC and travel only when absolutely necessary. My personal and family life is significantly improved and my career path has also strengthened contrary to conventional logic For holidays I now only use major carriers with minimum expectation and plan for eventualities, & never budget carriers unless without choice

For flying yes, you are a (FF) number - not a person

[Hartington]

Fairlie, I had been thinking about a similar post, well said.

[Hotel Tango]

I have to say I'm unclear why we still believe we are owed this high degree of personalised service

In my case the level of service I expect is proportional to the fare I pay. If I pay peanuts I have no expectations whatsoever. However, when I pay a high premium fare I don't think it is unreasonable of me as a customer to expect a high standard of service. Premium fares are lifesavers to the legacy carriers. They simply can't risk losing that income. So, they should sit up and take notice of what their customers think.

[Eddy]

I think the big problem with these Indian call centres is that responses are largely scripted. I book a lot of flights for friends of mine who have a house in Barbados (hence why I book flights for them) and have had to call BA on a number of occasions to make changes.

Newcastle's staff are excellent because they can understand every element of what you're saying to them. The guys and girls in india often struggle to grasp anything out of the ordinary.

If you ever need anything particularly complex to be dealt with, call and hang up until you get Newcastle. It's what i do.

[Ace Rimmer]

Now here's a lesson for BA - only this morning I had to change the intenery of a trip LHR-EWR-MBJ to LHR- EWR to days earlier and sectors from EWR-IAD return and keep the rest the same...Called Continental (fearing the worst - el cheapo restricted ticket and what not) The attitude I encountered?
Basically it went... You want to do what? OK No problem... You want to do it when?... OK No problem - there will be a charge for the flight change and the additional sectors - it'll be £270 more is that OK? Seat selection on new flights bif baf bosh. Do you need a hotel? Ok for a rental car? Wait a second I'll send you an updated reservation (bing email arrives).

I hope thay don't lose this attitude when the merger is finished

[PAXboy]

Continental give good service because they have already been down at the bottom of the cycle.

They were so bad that they were a split second from not existing. Then someone decided that they were going to save their airline and hired someone to do it. The airline clawed it's way back from being truly terrible to really good. One of the ways in which they did it was to allow their staff to help their customers. How many times have we heard folks (from many companies) say that they cannot help the pax in the way in which they used to because of rules?

I do not mean this to add to the old Bash-BA threads, it's just a fact that Continental fixed themselves and other carriers have yet to be fixed, or cease trading.

[Solar]

Seems to me that a lot of this type of hassle is to do with mordern day attitudes from the so called service people although Paxboy is probably correct.
Recently I flew in to T3 heathrow with an onward connection to Belfast BHD. I asked at the transit desk if I could get the earlier flight and was promptly told it's too late the gate is closing, I could see from the monitor that I would easliy have made it but couldn't be arsed to argue. I meandered over to T1 and got a cup of coffe which I was in the process of drinking when the BMI check girl came over and ask if I was for Belfast and if so would I like the earlier flight.
Same thing happened just recently to a mate who I was travelling with but his destination was Glasgow. He was told at the transit he was too late and when we got to T1 I advised to ask the checkin desk and he was put on the earlier flight. Me I now use Air Lingus to BFS.
Some people should not be serving the public.

[PAXboy]

Solar, sounds like the Transit Desk agent was simply following the rules. If they told you/others that you might make it - and you don't? There is the fear that they might be blamed. Also, if they agree to try, they have to do work! Either way, it's not clever but I find it 100% normal for 'service' roles in this day and age.

I risk a diversion here ... This example is from another field but also a service industry, that I will shorten and deliberately not tell you the line of work as it is the attitude that is the point.

A facility has two functional areas for performing their service to the public. They recently built a third to be 'overflow', if one of the others was too full, you could overspill attendees into the the third and use CCTV to beam the event from one of the other places.

Two weeks ago, we had a severe delay getting into one of the prime places and a member of the venue staff suggested we use the overflow - but in a primary role. This demonstrated a good service ethic BUT he had to get the permission of the boss. This took five minutes to get (more delay) and the boss protested, although then agreed.
So they build an expensive facility but argued whether we should use it.
If we did NOT use, then delay to many people and hassle to staff.
If we DID use it, then the client would think that the facility were being very helpful.
But the boss' first instruction was to stick to the rules and NOT use it. That is, have yourself a £150,000 building but don't use it as much as you could because the rules say so.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif :rolleyes: :hmm: :ugh:

[Solar]

Paxboy
Your more than likely correct in that they were just following the rules but I suppose a dose of common sense is too much to expect these days. Are you allowed to say common sense anymore.
Don't know if your aware but there is an American chap called Bob Knuckolls who is considered an aircraft electrical guru and he has as his sign off statement, Experience and common sense can never be replaced by policies and procedures. Which about sums it up these days.
The sad thing is that we seem to be breeding successive generations of people that don't seem to be able to think for themselves. As an example I work in the oil and gas industry presently in Malaysia and recently I went to the platform production office to get the permit to work which in this case was a hot work permit. I noticed that they had not carried out a gas test which is supposed to be done no more than thirty minutes before work commences. When I question the production operators they said it's OK cause the OIM has signed it WTF.
Retirement is looking better by the day.

[PAXboy]

Common Sense? Nah, mate, that went out with the Great Recession of 1989/1991. Once the accountants got everything locked down, then discretion and choice and all the rest got locked down with it. One of my regular 'for instances' that I quote is the resurgence of Continental. One of the ways in which they dragged themselves off the floor was by giving back to their staff control over the work and service and enabling them to help the client. Strangely, the clients liked this and bought more tickets!!!

The Bob Knuckolls quote is a gem but, now that we are in the Depression MkII, we ain't gonna see a relaxing of rules. One of the reasons is an old one of human behaviour. When a policy is not working, the instigator/s always thinks:
I'm not getting the desired result, what I need is to enforce my policy more strongly.
They never think:
I'm not getting the desired result should I, relax, or change, my policy?

[jetset lady]

The problem with discretion is that it often comes back and bites you in the rear. Take the issue of letting parents bring baby buggies onboard aircraft. Most of us were happy to help if there was room for the buggies. But then they started getting bigger and bigger until we had those monstrous 4x4 contraptions turning up at the door. Add that to a very busy flight and the result was often a long and drawn out hissy fit at the door when we tried to explain that we had no room for the buggy in this instance, along with the usual comments of "Well they let us bring it on last time!" As a result, there is now a blanket ban for all. As with many things, the selfish minority have ruined it for all.

I use the example of baby buggies only as it's something that has recently been raised at my place of work but in my experience, the principle applies in pretty much all areas where we were previously able to use our discretion. I could also have used the baggage issue that was raised on another thread. Sometimes, we are our own worst enemies.

[Globaliser]

One of my regular 'for instances' that I quote is the resurgence of Continental. One of the ways in which they dragged themselves off the floor was by giving back to their staff control over the work and service and enabling them to help the client. Strangely, the clients liked this and bought more tickets!!!So many, in fact, that Continental has had to get taken over by United!

[PAXboy]

It is true that Continental is being bought up but I suggest that is because:

The enormous over capacity in the USA market meant more mergers, takeovers, shut-downs had to happen.
Continental were good enough to be bought up and not left to shut-down for lack of customers. If they were not getting pax on-board, then they would have been left to wither and die.

[TightSlot]

I believe that in the CO/UA merger you will find that it is CO that are the dominant partner as we can begin to see now that the dust curtain is settling somewhat.

[Capetonian]

Two pax - family members - are booked in misery class CPT LHR. After the uncomfortable southbound flight they had I said I´d pay to upgrade them. Rang BA locally, lengthy waiting time, eventually ´phone was answered by disinterested and unsympathetic untrained ´agent´ who was barely able to retrieve the booking by record locator.

Said creature then told me, wrongly, that there were no seats available in World Traveller Plus or Business and that even if there were, tickets not upgradeable, also wrong.

Great service. Corroborates my decision made long ago to fly ABBA.

[Skipness One Echo]

Said creature

capetonian if you mean a local South African agent are you aware that your post reads shall we say with...dark undertones to say the least. Dripping with condescending arrogance is not the best way to get people on side.

[Capetonian]

I just knew that somebody would have to draw that conclusion and bring ´dark undertones´(how terribly subtle!) into this.

May I ask what you mean by a ´local South African´? No, I won´t ask, it´s pointless because you clearly think I mean a black and that is your attempt to play the PC race card.

Whilst it is sometimes hard to tell these days, specially amongst the younger people here, what race group they belong to from the way they speak, I am pretty sure this was indded a local South African - a white one.

And please let´s not have the crap about whites not being locals and so on.

This is about BA not wanting to provide customer service, not about race, and the race of the creature who answered the call is irrelevant. And I´m not trying to get anyone on my side, I´m quite capable of fighting my own battles without enlisting help.

[Skipness One Echo]

I'm sure you are, my thought was that you were implying that he was black coupled with your dreadful moniker of "creature", since repeated, hence I took that to be your intention.

I apologise if the crystal clear clarity of your post was lost upon me. Might I respectfully suggest that the "creature" sensed your attitiude and wasn't actually minded to help you?

Setting aside any rights and wrongs, pragmatically, that may be what caused the result. I might also add that you just posted the fact that you were aware of how your words were likely to be taken and still posted the unfortunate wording anyway.

[Capetonian]

Setting aside any rights and wrongs, le´t´s just assume the ´creature´ didn´t like my attitude. I wasn´t exactly begging for a favour, I was offering a fairly substantial sum of money to them in return for a service.

BA is a commercial organisation with a duty to its shareholders, and it is incumbent on them to accept that money given that the service requested was available.

Problem solved, via other channels, BA don´t get any more money out of me, not on this occasion nor in the future. Revenue lost, and money stays in my pocket. Satisfactory result for everybody except BA!