70 Years Grounded

[Dick Smith]

I have just read a fascinating book entitled Just Call Me Jack by Lesley Hazlitt with a Foreword by Peter FitzSimons. It’s about the life of Jack Hazlitt. Jack was a pilot flying satisfactorily until the following happened – to quote from the book:

Up until 1921 anyone who had learnt to fly a plane could fly. Then a government authority was formed which eventually became the Department of Civil Aviation. Now every pilot was required to undergo a flying and medical test. Jack had no problem passing the flying test but he failed his medical. On 6 July 1921 he was informed that he had a heart condition and was immediately grounded.

It appears Jack, who had landed at Gallipoli, supposedly had a heart defect that was connected with his war service. The book goes on to tell of Jack’s incredible career, first with Qantas as an Engineer and then in a great range of other fields including adventuring around the world.

On 15 June 1993 Jack passed away just four months short of 96 years of age. I wonder how many other flying careers have been destroyed because of a mistaken diagnosis like this?

[Jabawocky]

And let me guess......... His Ticker was still going strong at 96 and he dies from something else?

[Atlas Shrugged]

I wonder how many other flying careers have been destroyed because of a mistaken diagnosis like this?

Rather pessimistic way of looking at it Dick.

Destroyed???

I wonder how many lives have been saved when a routine medical examination discovers something that would otherwise go undiagnosed.

A quick search of this forum will find some very interesting stories.

[VH-XXX]

Rather pessimistic way of looking at it Dick.


Anything but! Especially if it is mis-diagnosed.

[Frank Arouet]

The medical requirement was as a result of the military being left in charge of a civillian programme which evolved into the bastardised bureaucratic monster it is today.

Many WW1 pilots suffered from "flying sickness D" which was an ignorant term derived from the debilitating effects of castor oil fumes they breathed. That later became know as Tuberculosis.

It is most probable that Jack Hazlitt had indigestion from dealing with these bludging parasites and was misdiagnosed with a bad heart.

A quick search of this forum will find some very interesting stories.

[Checklist Charlie]

I wonder how many other flying careers have been destroyed because of a mistaken diagnosis like this?

Is that the same as me going for a RAAF Selection Board and being told I am colour blind and can never fly.:{

Then, 2 years later doing the same test and passing when I'm called up for Nasho.:confused:

Found out later again that the RAAF had their 'quota' of applicants and I wasn't colour blind after all.:=

Managed to survive 40+ years of commiting civil aviation inspite of Ronny RAAF.:D

CC

[Jober.as.a.Sudge]

I'm quite cynical about the medical profession in general -and the aviation practitioners in particular. It is my belief that many of that profession over-diagnose (note: not necessarily mis-diagnose) in an effort to limit their exposure to malpractice suit. In some cases, the practitioners use their profession to espouse a political stance for either a perceived personal advantage (notoriety? public profile?) or to advance whatever "politically correct" public stance they espouse personally or on behalf of a professional body -the NZWN Dr. that weighed into the NZWB wheels-up debate a couple of years ago being a prime case-in-point. Whilst what he had to say may have had merit in the event that landing went disastrously wrong, it was entirely inappropriate to suggest that potential medical considerations after the fact should have a bearing on the flight-crew's management of the event.

Aviation has long been at the mercy of the medical profession, I have no doubt that many promising careers have been curtailed due a surfeit of caution from Dr's. -as I have no doubt at all that the Regulator cynically uses withdrawl of medical certification to terminate careers for whatever "reasons" they deem appropriate. Maybe you just pissed-off an FOI one day long ago...

[tail wheel]

Medical knowledge had advanced so far today that even a CASA clerk in Canberra is able to arbitrarily determine whether you are medically fit to fly an aircraft.

[gobbledock]

It won't be that long now until an unborn gnereation of aviators are saying 'christ I can't believe it has been 70 years since regulatory reform commenced' !

[Sunfish]

I have one mate who is alive today thanks to his medical. It picked up a dodgy ticker about Three years ago. Triple bypass the following week. He has his medical back now (PPL).

I have another who just got his renewed - he has a mild form of diabetes.

I had mine a while ago and was strongly advised to lose some weight and get fit. I'm doing my best.

[M14_P]

Can medical exams actually predict when one will get a heart attack? I think not.

[TinKicker]

An aviation medical effectively saved me.........

Military medical for flight crew did not detect a heart murmur despite the medical being relatively long and comprehensive. Did not make it through the interview board so no military flying but I still wanted to fly.

Civil medical, some 6 months later and blow me down I get told that I have a murmur and need to have it checked out. Dr said very easy to hear but not to worry about it until we find out why.......

Cardiologist does tests and discovers bicuspid aortic valve (should be a tricuspid) and says that I need to be careful with dental work/surgery/etc as I can introduce infections that will base themselves on that valve and really cause me grief (SBE - sub-acute bacterial endocarditis - I have subsequently seen the results of what happens (not me thankfully) - not nice at all and very debilitating).

DoA (as it was in those days) is told all about this and say no probs as long as you don't develop an infection in the valve. Class 1 medical issued no restrictions no problems.

I therefore advise all my dentists (have dental work and check up each year) and Doctors before surgery (have had a number of ops) that I need antibiotics before they start the procedure to provide coverage against infections. They all give me antibiotics and thank me for letting them know.

Had I not have done an civilian aviation medical then I probably would not have found out about this and taken the appropriate precautions.

All this happened 33 years ago and I still fly and hold a class 1 medical certificate.

Tinkicker

[Frank Arouet]

To many in the aviation industry, the only contact they have with the medical profession is at renewal time and this is generally seen as an effective way to force people to have a checkup. Much is advertised about annual checkup's on various mediums and indeed, the medical insurance company's provide for annual inspections. Mine even includes a dental check, physiotherapy, acupuncture, optical etc. etc.

To claim your condition was diagnosed at the DAME surgery puts that pilot in the catagory of a danger to himself because he hasn't the will nor perceived need to carry out a regular maintenance programme on his own body.

He stands to be a problem to himself and his passengers whether on the road, in the air or on the water because he can't understand the principle of preventative maintenance includes one's own health.

Just another example of the reasoning behind the bureaucrats in Canberra believing pilots can't be trusted to do anything without being forced to do so. After all they are all suspected terrorists, drug takers and alcoholics, so why should they be allowed to look after their own health?

Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down. I'd prefer to have a bit of notice to put my affairs in order if I don't have the option of dropping off in my sleep. I'm sure the passengers would agree.

[dude65]

Tinkicker

I've just had the same diagnosis at 45 years of age. I had a heart murmer diagnosed as a baby but it was never picked up again, and that includes having 2 class 1 medical examinations. I recently had minor surgery and a trip to the cardiologist to check out some highish blood pressure results in being diagnosed with a bicuspid aorta. Like yourself, it's no great issue but just needs to be monitored. I may need some sort of valve replacement in 20 or 30 years time. I guess that depends on my lifestyle now and in the future.

[Hugh Jarse]

I've had a couple of interesting experiences with DAMEs and CASA.

The first one was my initial pilot medical back in the early 80's. I'd never really been sick, so never saw the point in frequenting the doctors surgery. Suffice to say he found something which, while not excluding me from holding a Class 1 Medical, did require prompt treatment, and as I was to find out later, saved my life.

My first run-in with CASA was about 10 years later following a medical with a certain 'flamboyant' Sydney 'ex Empire Test Pilot' DAME. While he wasn't man enough to ask me more than some very basic questions regarding some obvious surgical scarring I had, he found it quite reasonable to make notes on my renewal form (behind my back) which scared CASA off renewing it until I had jumped through their not inconsiderable hoops (and gone through quite a bit of grief) getting medical reports stating I had been in remission for 8 years.

The second was over an ECG quite a few years later which, due to departmental stupidity, and a lack of communication within CASA's medical department led me to believe that I had heart problems (according to their rubber desk Johnny). What they were really trying to say is that they only send their ECG's away to the Cardiologist ONCE A MONTH, and that sometimes there can be a backlog, especially if he is on holidays. :=:ugh::ugh:

Once a month???? For god sake, GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER, CASA! :ugh::cool:

As you can see, I have neither respect nor confidence in CASA Medical.:cool:

Google: Adenoid Cystic Carcinoma

[Chronic Snoozer]

I've always found doctors and psychologists to be the natural born enemies of pilots. One way or another its their job to ground you. :}

[Neptunus Rex]

In the days of Kai Tak, the Civil Aviation Department was a stone's throw from the buildings housing Cathay and Dragonair. For Australians, the good doctor would complete two sets of papers, one for Hong Kong, the other mailed to Canberra. Invariably, the Australian medical certificates would arrive before the HK ones.

[Aerodynamisist]

I had a student once that was getting ready for his solo so we sent him in for his medical, they rushed him straight from the dame's office down to Sydney for a triple bypass, he credits flying to saving his life.

He never went solo but continued to fly in the club scene as a keen navigator.

It sound like jack had an incredible life, what is the ISBN number ?

[john_tullamarine]

I've always found doctors and psychologists to be the natural born enemies of pilots. One way or another its their job to ground you

That's a bit of a wide sweeping generalisation.

some obvious surgical scarring I had

I recall a renewal done shortly following a period of hospitalisation which had involved a biopsy on my ankle. The GP DAME, whilst attaching and removing ECG leads to the foot, chose not to see anything of the very obvious red-purple discolouration radiating from the not yet healed incision ... probably had something in his eye on the day, I guess.

Two examples of the other side of the coin -

Ralph Caponi. Originally a pilot (ANA) then GP and, eventually, electrical engineer. As a DAME he was faced on one occasion with getting a well known character back into the seat after the latter's being sidelined for some considerable time post motorbike prangs. In essence, Ralph just harassed DCA until they gave in on a "he (the pilot) can do it" basis. Mind you, the test was in a DC3, mates just about had to carry him up and down the stairs and the assy was a bit of a labour .. but determination was always one of the good chap's attributes.

John Colvin. The main man in the DAME eye game some years ago. Very much a pragmatist and on the side of the pilot. Helped me out with a minor muscular eye problem which embroiled me in a dispute with the MBF. Rode jumpseat on the Boeings a few times (I suspect he always avoided the cabin where he could) and always the thorough gentleman.

A couple of CASA DAME bosses in recent decades (whose names elude me just now), likewise, introduced/championed changes better to facilitate pilot certification.

[bushy]

I personally found DAMES to be very helpful, over a thirty year period.

[Horatio Leafblower]

...I too have probably been saved by CASA-enforced medical checks. I too have a bicuspid aortic valve, diagnosed when doing the RAAF medical.

Some 20 years later I had an echocardiogram and my aorta had blown out to 54mm diameter (yours is probably about 25-30mm). The walls were stretched thin and it was only a matter of time before it ruptured.

6" of gore-tex hose was installed and I had my Class 1 back 12 weeks later, no restrictions.

Dick, it's quite amusing that you're having a go at the medical and safety standards of the 1920s in an effort to have another shot at the regulator in 2010 :(

[Horatio Leafblower]

From the ABC
(http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/13/3037721.htm)
Airline captain dies mid-flight

Posted 9 hours 22 minutes ago

The captain of a Qatar Airways flight from the Philippines to Qatar died as it was in the air on Wednesday, forcing the plane to be diverted to the Malaysian capital Kuala Lumpur, the carrier said.

"Qatar Airways regrets to inform that the captain of Flight QR645, operating from Manila to Doha, passed away on board," the airline said in an emailed statement.

Qatar Airways said the flight was diverted to Kuala Lumpur, where a new crew boarded.

The flight "is due to land at Doha International Airport later today," the statement said, without providing additional details.

The airline declined to elaborate on the cause of death or release the name of the deceased pilot.

- AFP

[Frank Arouet]

I personally found DAMES to be very helpful,

So have I actually. Why can't they issue a medical on the spot without the pilot then being put through the wringer with the subsequent CASA process' and fees which only serve to give employment to a heap of people who can't handle something that one Lady, used to do in 1965, (with about the same number of pilots as today).

CASA need only be involved if there is a "renew by CASA only" limitation initiated by the DAME.

EDIT to add, the Qatar pilot most probably had a current class 1 medical.

[PA39]

Auto fail if your blood pressure is over 150/90....a bit tough while the mini skirted nurse is in the same room !! I've done 3 stress tests over the years.:)

[willadvise]

A colleague of mine had her routine medical several ears ago. She had a problem and was required to undergo further testing which she did. A month later the medical was renewed with no restrictions and no results of the testing was disclosed to her. She thought nothing more of it until 12months later when this problem manifested itself in quite a serious way and she went back to the DAME who told her that she still had the original problem that was confirmed by the original test results and that she probably shouldn't be working and her medical was pulled. The moral to this story is that you should ask for the results of any tests to be forwarded too your GP or make another appointment with your DAME to discuss the result of your tests.

[CaptainMidnight]

The moral to this story is that you should ask for the results of any tests to be forwarded too your GP or make another appointment with your DAME to discuss the result of your tests.Quite a while back (1990's I think) I heard that either an ATC or FSO had a heart problem on duty, and it came out that the problem had shown up with his last ECG for a class 3 medical, but he was not told about it. There was a court case or similar - maybe an ex-FSO or ATC knows about it.

[Tidbinbilla]

"Renew by CASA ONLY" is instigated by CASA, rather than the DAME. Trust me :E

[Frank Arouet]

You are correct of course, but it "should" be initiated by the DAME.

A high protein in your urine will make CASA demand a specialist intervention and will thereafter be a perpetual requirement.

If you have a kidney problem, you have the personal responsibility and costs of regular checks, the report and cost for CASA, the DAME costs, plus the CASA costs, plus the time and effort involved.

How hard would it be to take your voluntarily obtained specialist report explaining you high protein and given the OK, along to the DAME who would issue your medical that would automatically trigger your licence.

But no, that would interrupt the empire building and make things easier for the applicant. Can't have that can we?

It's obvious CASA don't trust DAME's.

[gobbledock]

Frank -
"Those who trust us educate us."
T.S. Eliot

Doesn't say much for Fort Fumble..........

[A37575]

At Townsville in the early fifties went to the RAAF medical section to get some wax removed from my ears. The Doc arranged for a medical orderly to aim a water filled industrial size syringe into my ear to wash out the debris. The corporal Orderly gave one almighty push on the plunger and the water jet fractured the ear drum. Fixed the wax but good, though. Was then sent to a civvy ear specialist a month later (couldn't get an appointment earlier) who had a good look - wrote a report - and sent me on my way.

As I left his surgery I asked him the result? The snobbish bastard looked down his nose at me and said "I can't tell you that because this report is confidential and goes to your Commanding Officer".

My CO was on leave so I sweated out yet another month to know whether or not I was going to be grounded for good. To my great relief the ear drum had healed itself and I went back to flying never trusting RAAF medicos again.

Another story: Former RAAF pilot mate over 60 and now civvy PPL, goes for Class One renewal which includes Stress ECG. Within a minute or so of fast walking on the treadmill, his doc stops the machine and says have you any chest pains?

No - I feel 100 percent says the 60 plus PPL. The doc says indication here is you are about to die!. Turns out the machine was right and a very serious heart problem had surfaced which resulted in the PPL having heart surgery. He now swears by the vital importance of having regular (annual) stress ECG's.

[Capt Claret]

On the flip side I've had two stress ECGs in three years. Both have shown a trace which can be an indicator of impending heart attack. Both required further testing, the first a Sestamibi Scan (radioactive die and more scans & another stress ECG) and the second a CT Angiogram.

In both cases I've been given a clear bill of health but it's a right painful rigamarole.

[Frank Arouet]

I was OK until I had a nuclear stress ECG a couple of weeks ago. (took 4 hours). Felt rotten after that and had to go to the Pub. After the first beer, I grounded myself for 48 hours. Long way short of 70 years though.

It's a wonder these tests don't kill more people. But I suppose if you're going to have an event, its probably best done in the prescence of a cardiologist.

None of this as a requirement of CASA by the way. Took it all on board myself as routine maintenance because of creaks and groans associated with the ageing process.

[triadic]

I recall doing a Av Med once and asked the Dr a question which I thought was relevant (to me) and he told me to make another appointment to talk about that as it was not on the CASA check list!!:mad:

Lesson here is that to rely on your AvMed to highlight everything to do with your good (or bad) health is not really a good thing to do.

Some DAMEs are great, and others have trouble just arranging an eye test! There is one in FNQ in the later category and I find it amazing that he still has his approval as CASA are aware of his shortcomings!!:suspect:

Part of the problem these days is that the Av Med section in CBR is staffed by Dr's that don't seem to have much aviation medical experience and therefore default to their book of rules rather than use their experience and expertise (should they have that) to make decisions that are safe & practical. They don't seem to care that at the stroke of a pen they can end a career and dont seem to give a sh1t about it. The appeal process is convoluted and expensive. I would make mention that there are two ladies in that section that have been there for many years and I have nothing but good to say about them and the trouble they sometimes go to in order to get the job done. Even when the Dr's are away, which seems to be far too often.:(

The other thing that gets under my skin is that the section seem to operate in a manner similar to MI5. Very little comes out of CASA about the medical process and the Dr's names and experience etc is never or vary rarely mentioned. They should have a page or two in every edition of the CASA safety magazine and operate in a open environment. Maybe then the understanding by both sides would be better??:ugh:

[Capt Claret]

When I moved to FNQ I found a local DAME, sans bedside manner. When he appended my medical as needing corrective vision without telling me, I decided to go back to my most excellent DAME in Fannie Bay, Darwhine.

I wonder if the FNQ DAME is the one to whom triadic alludes?