Log book fraud anyone??

[TikkiRo]

Probably a very silly question this, but since I'm only starting out on my road to a PPL perhaps the seasoned amongst you will overlook my possible naivity. I'm wondering if there isn't a possibility of log book fraud, as so far my hours were left to me to put in my log book, and nobody seemed to care whether they were checked or not. What's to therefore stop someone from placing loads of hours in and making up the where and when of their accruel?? I'm in no way suggesting anyone would do it, but am just curious how it is monitored when it comes to your minimum no of hours for the licence. I would have thought each entry should be co-signed by the PIC or club or something. Or am I wrong? http://smilecwm.tripod.com/fk/cat.gif
TR

[Beagler]

Every entry should be signed by your instructor... make sure he/she does.

Personally I would not cheat myself and see my log book as a sign of achievement.

Your hours are also logged in the aircraft tech log and airfield movements.

[TikkiRo]

Ah yes Beagler, but who checks it - that's what I'm curious about, or is everything done on trust in a sense - I agree, that it's probably something few people are actually going to cheat on anyway, but just feel the avenue appears to be there. If you don't have your logbook handy at the time of a lesson, in my case, it appears I can just fill out the details myself, and I'm unhappy with that idea. I know the FI's won't mind in the least filling in their bit if nothing else, but it still seems a bit dicey. Surely anyone who's needing hours rather than experience can just add a few here and there if necessary - I'm thinking post PPL here as well. What about CPL/ATPLs - do they have any checking done on theirs?? Or is this really a dumb question in the end, because nobody is going to bother frauding the system over it anyway?? :)

[Whirlybird*]

TikkiRo,

It's not at all a dumb question. Especially after getting your PPL, it would be amazingly easy. This is especially the case, I would think, for things like the new(ish) 90 day rule. If you're not familiar with it, you have to have done three take-offs and landings in the last 90 days to legally carry passengers, but they can be touch and gos. Well, since I fly mainly helicopters, but do a bit of fixed wing flying now and then, as a law abiding person I make sure I do a few circuits once in a while to keep current for taking up friends. I then note the number of takeoffs/landings I've done in my log book. But does anyone check this? Nope. Could I make up a few extra circuits with impunity? Definitely.

Before anyone gets mad, I'm not saying I would do this. But I know someone who said just that - he won't respect a rule which is uncheckable and therefore impossible to enforce - and can you really blame him?
Whirly

[This message has been edited by Whirlybird* (edited 07 October 2000).]

[Beagler]

Now I think about it in detail I realise that what has been suggested might explain some of the Instructor/CPL/ATPL pilots I have come across who I consider an absolute menace and would refuse to fly with... even if I had a ticket with their airline.

Don't cheat yourself... if you are out of currency collar an instructor for half an hour and don't set off in dodgy weather.

It's only a flaming logbook and you only have one opportunity to enjoy your life!

[fallen eagle]

Personaly I either filled in my students log book after each trip or supervised them doing same.Made sure exercises were recorded correctly etc.Then at end of training cross checked with student progress sheets to make sure nothing missed.once a PPL. I guess it would be an easy job to fiddle,but beware I had a PPL produce a logbook for a cert of ex. strange I thought as I new the a/c he was supposed to have been flying had been in an accident 18 months before and was still with the plumbers.I had no choice but seek the advice of the Authority they delt with the offending pilot fairly severly.. bye bye

[Beagler]

How severe?

[old-timer]

I believe the practice of forging log book flight entries is called 'parker pen flying' ?

Its not worth doing, it cheats yourself
& most likely invalidates any insurance
cover if, heaven forbid, an accident occured & it could be proven that some entries were illegal & maybe invalidating the 90 day rule for example.

I believe the CAA computerised system
can cross check entries to check for anomalies ? although this would only occur
if you sent your licence up for an additional rating etc,

stay safe, follow the rules,
boring maybe, but they are there to
protect you also,

[fallen eagle]

Hi Beagler I understand your comment and wont hold it against you. It was the only time in lots and lots of years of examining and instructing that I had to do any thing as severe, but I knew the persons history and if I signed his log book he was the sort of non pilot, to go and borrow an a/c from some unsuspecting club or person,then launch off with unsuspecting passengers.Plus he did decline to fly with me after I questioned his entries.What should I have done?The guy was a fraud in the true sense and a dangerous one at that. bye bye.

[Beagler]

Fallen Eagle... please don't take my comment as an outright attack on yourself or your profession.

There must be good and bad examples in all walks of life.

I distinctly remember an uncomfortable ride in a PA28 with what I assumed to be a "top gun"... ex club instructor and now twin jet airline co-pilot.

Insisted on approaching to land in a gusty crosswind with full flap because "that was the way the engineers had designed her".

I wouldn't wish the situation we found ourselves in on my worst enemy!

Just because this guy had an ATPL or whatever didn't make him a god pilot.

Question: do airline hopefuls still take aptitude tests or is the requirement just a bulging bank balance these days?

[fallen eagle]

Beagler I think I misunderstood your last as me being severe.Maybe you ment the punishment.My apologies to you if thats the case. THE AUTHORITY issued him with a retraining programe approx 10 hrs plus GFT, QCC it hit his pocket but helped in the end he was also restricted to local flights 25nm radius for next 15 hrs wot do you reckon? bye bye M

[PURPLE PITOT]

It's called P51 (an old type of parker pen), or G-BIRO time (i think there is actually a C172 with that reg).
It used to happen a lot, and the UK CAA used to check at least one log book in every hundred when issuing ratings.They found so many fraudulent entries, which were duly investigated/prosecuted. The cost of such investigation was so great that they now check one log book in a thousand.
Every minute in my log books have been paid for/ earnt. If i find any of my students or professional colleages making fraudulent entries i will not report them as this will cost us all money. I will have aquiet chat when no one is looking( you get the idea).

[fallen eagle]

Beagler I dont think I would take OFFENCE at your comments cos I think we are like minds. If you read one of my posts about punters posted by Whirlybird you will see I am a paint sprayer now, cant afford to support my family anymore by being a QFI. CPL. EXAMINER. Sorry but after nearly 20 years in the game of teaching and even more years of flying I think its a shame cos I had/ have lots to give. bye bye.

[fifthcolumns]

There was a case in the Hawaii after an accident
where they found the pilot had been faked a lot
of hours in his logbook. It caught up with him
in the end, unfortunately he took some passengers
with him.
The problem is that you can very easily fake
hours in your logbook. But at the end of day
only you will suffer. Obviously lack of money
in one reason. If you were to fake a few hours
in order to maintain your licence, your acual lack
of currency might kill you. If you fake a lot of hours
your sheer lack of experience might kill you.
Either way it's a gamble.
If you find yourself in that position, considering
fake entries, you really need to consider your
situation. Should you be flying at all?

[Grandad Flyer]

Beagler, there is little point in adding hours to your log book for a number of reasons. Up to PPL your log book should be signed by your instructor to say you have done the exercises. After your PPL, if you are just flying for fun, no-one really cares how many hours you have, you will have to either fly regularly with a school or get check outs regularly, so you'll either have the experience or you will be noticed. If you are trying to get hours for a commercial licence, yes you could fib, and end up getting your licence a few hours early (provided you were able to pass the exams and flight tests). Then what? You apply to airlines. They have a look at your log book. Wow, lots of hours, they think, just what we are looking for. Off you go for your interview ending with a sim ride. You are crap. Hmm, they think, for a 2000 hour pilot he flys like someone who only has 700. He is obviously rubbish and we don't want to give him a job.
Or, you scrape through the sim check and fail your conversion course, leaving you with huge embarrasment, a huge bill to pay and not much of a career left.
Also, I do know that the CAA check. I know of one guy who made up something like 500 hours, saying he had gone to the USA and flown there. He got found out, he lost his licence and that was the end of his flying career. I know of others who have been found out. Is it worth the gamble?
Of course if you are just trying to impress your friends by saying how many hours you have, then I would say this. People with no flying experience will think 100 hours sounds a lot. People with lots of experience will know you are fibbing.
And when you make out that someone, just because they are an airline pilot, is some kind of "ace" well it doesn't happen that way. There are good airline pilots and there are mediochre airline pilots.
You say you thought this guy was some kind of god because he had an ATPL, well, no, it doesn't work that way.
Anyone can enrol on an airline pilot course, only those who are committed and have some ability will pass the course and hopefully only those who are very good will get into an airline job.
Your instructor may have been fairly inexperienced when teaching you, he has obviously now moved on, learnt more and got a job as an airline pilot.
How about telling us about why you want to fabricate hours? What is YOUR motivation? This is an anonymous forum, I'm just interested.

[Beagler]

I have no intention of fabricating hours, not now, not ever!
I fly for leisure so I have no career to chase and I do not want to use hours like a golf handicap.

The ATPL guy was not instructing me, I was sat in the back seat crapping myself.
He is still out there as bloody dangerous as ever!

[fallen eagle]

Hi all! again trouble with these posts is we have all had long hard weeks and dont always see what we read.Please let us not go to the Wanabees level cos I visited that Forum and did not like it much!

[Whirlybird*]

People,

NO-ONE here has said they want to fabricate hours, or have done so, or intend to. They're merely commenting on how easily it could be done.

Grandad Flyer, fifthcolumns and Purple Pitot, interesting posts. I knew it must have happened, and wondered if anyone ever checked. Good to know.

However...when I worked as a market research interviewer, people who cheated by making up answers to surveys easily got caught by the backchecking methods, and sacked. The ones who managed to cheat for years and get away with it were cleverer; they did the surveys, asked a few questions but made up SOME of the answers - much more difficult to find out.

To transfer this to flying...suppose you did the flights but just added a bit on the time, a couple of extra landings to be within the 90 day rule, that sort of thing. Could anyone find out? I doubt it. Or am I wrong? And before anyone goes of the deep end and flames me, I HAVE NOT DONE THIS AND HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING SO!

Whirly

[TikkiRo]

Thanks people - as Whirlybird said, and I concur, I wasn't (nor anyone else as far as I can see) suggesting the idea of doing so, but was just interested in the concept. Just my nature - assessing loopholes in things. Problem is that when I ask questions about such a loophole people wonder if the reason I'm doing so, is because I've either done the deed or am thinking about it. Not my nature I'm afraid - but I'm one of these types who would love to be involved in taking a suspect device through customs/x-ray to see if they spotted it (with authorisation of course!)or would love to be involved in checking out security in other angles of the aviation industry. But I digress - good debate everyone and thanks for the feedback. :)

TR

[AC-DC]

To all
I know of an instructor (ATPL, CFI)that encourages and help his students to make false entries in the log book, but I will not report him as it is not for me to police the world.

[NIMBUS]

AC-DC
Reporting that guy is not policing the world, but could be preserving it!
People like him are part of the reason it is getting so difficult (and expensive!) for private flying! There are enough reasons for the General Public wanting to ban 'little planes' as it is. Why help them?
Help yourself (assuming you are actually a pilot!) and the rest of us...!

[Whirlybird*]

AC-DC,

"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

Report him! This guy's dangerous.

Whirly

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To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[old-timer]

good points whirly bird,

like you say, no ones actually suggesting
fiddling the hours & top marks to nimbus for pointing out the guy that was,
its all common sense really, a good instructor can spot a dodgy P1 at 20 paces,

so much sky, so little time :-(

[Flintstone]

It happens. We all know it does. I knew a guy who needed twin time. after a three month mysterious absence he popped up with 500 hours in the multi engine column of his logbook. I didn't have to report him as his logbook was 'borrowed' and then returned with the offending pages torn out.

AC DC. If what you say about this instructor is true do something about it before he or one of his students kills someone. If you don't, may it be on your conscience. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for these sort of people.

(Dimantles soap box, departs stage left)

[AC-DC]

I know that you are all in the right and I am in the wrong! But years ago I opened the mouth and it was me who paid the price. No more!
If he was the only one who does it than it could solve a problem, but we all know that this is not the case.
I heared of an FAA examiner (IR & ommercial) who took back hands, cought and just lost his paperwork. No inside time and no fine.

[This message has been edited by AC-DC (edited 10 October 2000).]

[rightstuffer]

I think there is a big difference between PPL students scratching the odd 5 minutes here and there and someone apparently clocking up 500 hours in 3 months. In my experience, it is easy to add minutes but much harder to add hours. I think synchronising with the aircraft logs are the key to this. But as someone has already said, how do you check so many?

[DogsBolx]

Before finding gainful(ish) employment, I thought that it would be a good idea to go to the States and get some cheap twin flying done to beef up my multi time in my log book.I rang a place that had the cheapest time, advertised in a well known flying periodical, and had a contact in the UK. The chap in the UK suggested to me that if I and 2 others bought 50 hours each, we could all come back with 150 hours each in our log books. I was staggered by this and fortunately was offered the job I wanted before I dug myself a very big hole.

[Whirlybird*]

AC-DC,

Drop an anonymous note to someone who can do something about this guy. then it'll hopefully be investigated without causing any problems for you.

Whirly

------------------
To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[JamesG]

DogsBolx

If it makes you feel any easier, the FAA are aware of this type of abuse. I was specifically given a pre-emptiove warning a few years ago in LA when converting my CAA licence, in the company of a friend who was laso out there.

At the time we were both a little miffed [becuase we had no intention of transgressing], but your posting makes me feel a little better about their stance, which I thought was unjustified at the time.

[Grandad Flyer]

It has been known for the CAA to call schools in the USA to check up on hours which may be suspicious (and they have caught people out).
I did all the hours in my log book but one month I did a couple of hundred hours, and I thought the CAA would query it. As I actually HAD done the hours, I got the school I hired from to not only stamp my log book to say that was correct but also to provide a letter on headed paper stating the hours I had done were correct.
It would be wise for others to do this, just in case any corroborating evidence should ever go missing and later the CAA query it.

[AC-DC]

Jasesg and DogsBolx.
To the best of my knowledge the FAA allows to log your hours as ‘Non Flying Pilot’ as P1 hours, therefore they do not brake any rules or regulations.

Dogbolex.
Is the US school with the UK contact is the one that advertise in red as ‘Definitely – The Best Deal Ever’?

Whirlybird.
Point taken. Do you come on the 21 to Duxford? We can talk. Still, I don’t like to harm people.

[Whirlybird*]

AC-DC,

Yes, I hope to be at Duxford on the 21st, weather permitting.

Whirly

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To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[Whirlybird*]

While on the subject of log book fraud, has anyone read the article in the "I Learned About Flying From That" series in "Pilot", February 2000? It's a bit long, so I'll have to paraphrase it somewhat:

The author was crop spraying in Africa in the 1960s, and needed a replacement pilot in a hurry.

"After we had contacted those pilots we knew...and drew blanks, the name J Jackson...appeared. He had been on our list of applicants for some time, for two years running in fact. No-one had heard of him, but log book extracts and a photocopy of his pilot's licence and type endorsements were on file. He had logged well over 2,000 hours, and had flown everything, from single to four-engined aircraft. He had even completed a season of crop-spraying in Australia, so his application said."

'Jacko' is hired by phone. He arrives, and emphasises that he will require type familiarisation, probably a bit longer than normal, as he is slow to get the hang of a new type of aircraft. He seems to be OK, though is nicknamed 'Captain Grasshopper', for obvious reasons. The author decides to have a look at his performance first hand. The next day he stands at the side of the field which Jacko is treating. There is a 20 foot heap of earth, which they are all used to avoiding, but this time Jacko misjudges it, and he hits the bank and crashes. He is rescued by his colleagues, taken to hospital with a broken jaw; then he completes an accident repoort for the insurers and flies back to Heathrow.

"That, as far as we were concerned, was the end of the matter. Lloyds acknowledged the receipt of claim. They would be in touch in due course...We were more than surprised to receive a quick response.

Shorn of niceties, their letter of denial said that J Jackson, a bus driver with London Transport, had been arrested soon after his return to the UK. He was charged with driving his bus, unauthorised, to Heathrow, where he abandoned it and used the day's takings to pay for his air fare. Mr Jackson's total flying experience came to 20 hours tuition at a local flying club. His licence and log book entries were forgeries."

Whirly



------------------
To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[NIMBUS]

AC-DC,
I don't think the concept of ‘Non Flying Pilot’, 'P1, P2', etc., exists over here.
PIC time is logged whenever you are 'sole manipulator of the controls', or if you are flying as Instructor with a student (ie. unlicenced pilot!) The 'Non Flying Pilot' bit is SIC (Second in Command) and only applies for aircraft not certified for single-pilot operation.

Two PPL's, etc., who jointly rent an aircraft to save money are breaking the rules if both log the time as PIC. Lots of people do it, yes, but that just means lots of people are breaking the rules!

[JamesG]

AC-DC

An interesting ambiguity crosses my mind.

If operating on the priviliges of a converted CAA licence, isn't it the formalities of the CAA licence that would apply?

I've always regarded my FAA Airman's Certificate that way and never flown VFR on top or done any of the other things that FAA PPLs can do over and above CAA PPLS [no pun intended] Anyway, VFR on top scares me as a concept!

[AC-DC]

Nimbus – Thanks. I always thought that it is legal. To the best of my knowledge the US/UK school that advertise in red suggests this route.

JamesG – If you fly a converted CAA to FAA than all CAA rules apply, it says so on the FAA certificate. Because I have never checked it I follow the safe route. To the best of my knowledge there isn’t such a think as VFR on Top in Europe. VFR means that you must be in sight of the ground, however, it doesn’t state that you must see it all the time, BKN cloud and you are still in sight. Still, if you are not IMC/IR don’t try it. Clouds can be very unfriendly and the hills below made of hard stuff.

[captain206]

If ANYBODY knows of anyone falsifying their logbook, or otherwise cheating their way into a job that entails looking after and preserving the lives of innocent travellers (self loading freight), without the experience and ability needed, you MUST tell the appropriate authorities immediately. We must all, as responsible people, rid the industry of this sort of lowlife! To the people who do cheat, I really hope that your own loved ones never get the 'chance' to fly with you. Dont cheat, borrow money and pay for hours like the rest of us. It is better to be a bankrupt pilot with the best seat in the house than a lowlife murderer!

[Negative Charlie]

AS far as flying VFR on top goes - isn't this permitted to basic PPLs under JAR? I've been informed more than once that it's legal in some European countries (e.g. France) but not in the UK. If the ban on VFR on top is a restriction imposed only by the UK CAA, would it still apply with an FAA certificate issued on the basis of a JAA licence?

Now I think I've confused myself.

[foxmoth]

Beagler,
Just because someone lands full flap in gusty conditions doesn't mean he is dodgy, this is the way I was taught in cessnas with manual flap handles, and if there is EVER an aircraft to reduce flap on THAT is the one - the main thing if you fly this way is to hold the higher speed - then when you chop the power the extra drag puts you on the ground faster.
(yes I am Airline ATPL, but also flying light a/c from C150s to DH82a)

[NIMBUS]

Neg. Charlie,
As far as I know, any FAA licence issued on the basis of a CAA, JAA, etc., licence is subject to any restriction or conditions on the original licence. The FAA privilages only apply when operating an FAA registered A/C (i.e, with an 'N' no.!)
If flying in the US, in a US A/C, FAA PPL's can fly night VFR, but if the PPL is based on an overseas licence, which does not allow night VFR, then you can't.

[TooHotToFly]

Interesting what PURPLE PITOT says. Because the CAA found so many fraudulent entries they stopped checking as often. You'd have thought it would have been the other way round. High fines could pay for the extra workload involved in checking them. It's like saying sometimes the pitot heat doesn't work - so if we don't check it as often then there's less chance of it being broken

[carbheat]

I was taken to task at my flying school for putting take off to touch down times in the relevant aircraft tech log(as opposed to chock to chock).This showed me that all my times were double checked: my entries in my log book had to tally with the training flight records and tech logs of the aircraft flown. I can see how an unscrupulous FTO could arrange things,but fail to see where the benefits for either party exist.

[PURPLE PITOT]

The CAA do not issue fines, they have to prosecute through the courts, who issue any penalties. This costs lots of money (lawyers are scum, especialy my ex!)This is why the CAA do not prosecute unless they are guaranteed to win, and the cost of persuing fraudulent log entries would far exceed the fines recovered. I still say the best way to deal with fraudsters is give them a good kicking.

[Rusty Cessna]

I am intruiged as to what Grandad Flyer says in his initial post about making up foreign time.

About a month ago I REALLY DID return from Barbados after spending 3 weeks out for my parents 25th and brothers 19th. Whilst out there I did about 4-5 hours in a pretty little 172 ,N20773. Now the instructor (ace chap) did sign for it so its ok,but my mummy, awww, bought mr a posh big new logbook and I now have the hours in there but the instructor, unless i go back out there cant sign for them.

Will I get in trouble for this? Also, I forgot to record my takeoff time yesterday and by the time I remembered I was on a different frequency so what I did was, take the time I had been airborne, deduct if from the real time, cross check it with my plan to see if it fitted, and put that time down, similar happened on return (landing and chock).

Now i wasnt making time up, and i never have and never will, but I was very nervous seeing as it was my first land away so I guesstimated a time. I didnt think I was doing anything wrong, was I? do I need to edit my logbook?

Thanks for your help
Rusty.

[Whirlybird*]

Rusty, all of that is absolutely fine.

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To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[ironbutt57]

not too terribly long ago in the USA a regional airliner was lost in a fatal accident...during the course of the investigation it was discovered that the first officer had falsified his logbook in order to obtain the minimum hrs for the ATP..all aboard were lost so case closed? WRONG the assets of the first officer were seized in order to satisfy a judgement rendered by the court where the insurance company subrogated the claim...so the late first officer's wife and family lost everything they owned..plus the life insurance settlement....

[Oleo]

Interesting thread. In the USA, instructors have to sign off instruction entries but other than that, the unscrupulous could put any entries they want. Incidentally, I have licences in 5 countries and the USA is the first that I have seen this.

Speaking of dodgy practices, I have heard of 3 multi instructors all logging time at once. The one from the back seat can pay as little as $12 an hour for the priviledge.

There was a recent case where two multi instructors had built time in a tiwn together and both had logged all the time. They did not, however, endorse eachother's logbook to reflect instruction. The FAA took a rather dim view of this and the both lost their licences. So that was their careers over.

[Low_and_Slow]

> Two PPL's, etc., who jointly rent an
> aircraft to save money are breaking the
> rules if both log the time as PIC. Lots of
> people do it, yes, but that just means
> lots of people are breaking the rules!

At least in the US there is a way for two private pilots to both log PIC simultaneously that has passed limited FAA muster (ie. chief council opiniouns)


In operations requiring more than one pilot, where one acts as PIC (i.e. is responsible for the flight) and is a required crew member, and the other is manipulating the controls, both may be able to log PIC. The chief example of this is when one pilot is acting as a safety pilot (a required crew member) while the other is manipulating the controls and is under the hood. In this case many authorities (such as the AOPA) have asserted that both can log PIC.

For details go to deja.com and serch on
"safety pilot log pic two"

[TikkiRo]

I've just come back to check on the boards after being offline for a few weeks and am quite amazed to see that this thread is still going strong. Didn't expect to open up such a healthy debate, but it is good to see the responses. It is also interesting though to read between the lines and see that this is indeed possibly an area open to fraud here in the UK. Should there not be some better system thus instigated by whatever body oversees flying clubs/training schools to ensure that the instructor is the one who signs off on ALL lessons regardless, or at least that it is validated in some form by stamp or otherwise. In fact, I would have thought that would be even easier - get the club to stamp the logbook for any given lesson - that was what so surprised me when I first got a logbook. I was expecting spaces for all such validation, and when I was then shown how to fill it in myself, thought it was rather bad. I take pride in achievement and wouldn't want someone else to think as I have done, that there's nothing to show that I really did take these lessons. And if there is this possibility for fraud at PPL level, then, as some have already pointed out, it can be taken through to the next levels of CPL and ATPL etc with dangerous consequences especially nowadays in this competitive job era. Can anyone tell me how commercial pilots log their hours. Again, do they just write them up themselves, or is it computerised according to their rota schedule or something?? Just curious. Not trying to start another war of words about the possibilities down that particular road. Thanks for all the input.
:)

[Whirlybird*]

TikkiRo,

I'm not an expert on this, but after PPL I think it would be impossible to monitor everything - people own their own aircraft, fly from lots of different places, and so on. There's another thread on this on PPRuNe, I think it's in Aircrew Notices, and they refer to these people as "Parker Pen Pilots" - I hadn't heard the term before, but it proves the problem is well known and nothing new.

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To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[AC-DC]

Nimbus (Yours 13/10/00)
So what is the rule if you fly an 'N' reg. with a converted licence?


[This message has been edited by AC-DC (edited 04 November 2000).]