EK safety culture

[Comanche]

Been thinking about joining EK. Leaving aside the obvious issues of lifestyle, t&c's etc, I would like to know what the safety culture is like at EK. Once I have given up my job here in Europe and moved my family across, it would be very frustrating to constantly fly in fear of making any errors that will get me fired. With my current airline the reporting culture is quite open, and most of the time - other than unstable approaches or perhaps a very serious lapse in judgment (gross neglect) - you will not be dismissed. Things like flap overspeeds, level busts, taxi speed exceedance, hard landings, go-arounds, diversions, landing with low reserve fuel, landing long, minor load sheet errors, tech log errors, etc etc are almost every day events at my airline with 1500+ sectors a day, which are mostly reported. Even the guys that skidded into a light post in AMS were still with the airline afterwards. So what sort of errors, reported by crew or others or picked up by flight data monitoring, would get you dismissed in EK? I know for example with Qatar, just not wearing your cap on the turnarounds can mean instant dismissal. Or what about failing a sim check? Don't get me wrong, I have been flying around for many years without any incident or serious errors, but it would be nice to know that you'd get some support from management, although I assume that the fact of not having a union certainly has a strong influence.

[sanddude]

Taking pictures of your crew and aircraft during your turn around could already be the end of your career with EK . Wrong time, wrong place, meet the wrong guy and you could be binned.:ugh: ( CMB case)

[Marooned]

Safety is reactive, not pro-active.

They have invested a great deal of time and effort into our 'Crisis management/response team' in a tacit acceptance that a hull loss is going to happen.

Too big, too fast with Jo'burg, Melbourne and numerous wake up calls in between. Knackered crew, factoring to numerous destinations with inexperienced crew.

Support from management? TCAS? TCTC? Even a minor incident is up for a disciplinary or termination. Follow SOPs but if a human factor is involved that **** TCAS will leave you out to dry... all for the price of a diamond encrusted Rolex and other 'incentives'.

Open culture? Open to abuse and very little regulation from the regulator.

Safety? It just a question of money.

[varigflier]

Are you serious about not being able to take pictures with the crew and in the flight deck?:confused:

[Oblaaspop]

Comanche, you will not be 'fired' for ANY of the things you mention in your post.

If that was the case, we clearly wouldn't have any pilots left! You may well be fired for landing deep from a VERY unstable approach instead of going around, but then why should any company be kind to folks who blatantly put peoples lives at risk by doing crap that is dangerous?

There was a lot of knee-jerking after the MEL incident (which IMHO was a crass cock-up, clearly not following SOPs, and ignoring Airmanship -- Flex 74c on a 14 hour flight???? Come on guys!!), and I agree that the MAN guys - especially the F/O under training should not have been fired, the ACC guys were subsequently re-instated.

Basically, if you go to work, do your job professionally, stick to the rules, exercise good judgement and airmanship, stay 'above the line', and keep your head down, you will be left well alone - as in any airline... If you go to work, don't follow procedures/rules, and make a stupid error nearly killing 300 people, then good luck to you, you are now on your own!! - as in any airline!!

We all make mistakes (yes including me), none of us can say we have ever achieved a 'perfect' flight, yet we're still employed!! Why is that?

Hope this clears things up for you?

[Not from here]

There is no safety culture not since they fired JG.
They now have a representative from Fleet on any safety debriefs, talk about the fox guarding the hen house. It is all about apportioning blame. Not safety

[Saltaire]

There is not a real non jeopardy safety reporting system. They claim there is, but if you mess up you really stick your neck out. It's not a very pro active system but rather very re active. The concept of an open door policy is simply laughable. The ME is a blame culture, why did you do this, what went wrong?? etc. not what can we do to prevent this again, what can we as a company do to help....Fatigue and over loaded rosters are a big problem currently, and the overall response is that, well it's legal := I tend to agree more with Marooned.

[Oblaaspop]

Varig,

No you are not gonna be fired for taking pictures of crew in the flight deck!

You will be fired for allowing the crew to sit in the F/O's seat with her hands on the controls at 35,000 feet, and she then subsequently pops said photo on Bookface with all the flight details!

Or perhaps the reference was to the F/O that was fired for taking photo's of the crew inside the engine on the ramp at CMB (a joint civil/military airport in a troubled country), in front of 300 pax who had been delayed for 3 hours due to the aircraft being tech, missed their connections, and were p1ssed off so (with much wobbling of moustached heads) complained to the company!

Its all about being sensible and above all not being stupid and leaving yourself open to being hauled over the coals in the office!

"But there for the grace of god go I" and all that crap etc etc. I hope I never find myself in any of the situations mentioned above which in all essence seems completely innocent. But before I do anything which may be (even slightly) outside my job remit, I have a little think about the 'possible' consequences first............... Risk management chaps! I suggest you all do the same.:ok:

[sheikmyarse]

The relation between EK and its workers is just based on distrust, paranoia and abuse period

[BYMONEK]

It is for distrusting, abusive, paraniod people like you sheiky.

For the rest of us, I agree with Oblaaspop and Contacted. As I've already said on a previous post, behaviour breeds behaviour. Go to work, do you job and make it professional and enjoyable. 7 years + here and no issues. :ok:

[joe.bloggs]

I agree with Contacted cos he gives a balanced view. The problem is with the ****s in the office trying to show how big their hard** is with the hope of impressing senior management and becoming the next President of the airline. dream on boys.

[IXNAT]

It's very simple really. If there can be or is ANY negative publicity or the possibility of such.....you're screwed. MAN...all the plane spotters there posting what happened, plus TC in the area. Keep it in house and out of the eyes of the public and your "punishment" will be kept in house. Oh yes, there will be some punishment, eg, downgraded, command delayed, taken off the line until you prove you did all correctly and are "innocent", etc. The ASR system screws you too. If you don't file an ASR when you should have and your incident is found out, screwed. If you file an ASR and self report, maybe screwed. There are individuals that are trying to fight this mindset, but remember where the airline is based. The IAH high speed abort has been, in my mind, a pleasant surprise. Maybe, just maybe a small change in the mindset. Just say, there were those that wanted to hang those guys.....enough said. On the other hand, a massive shortage of pilots overides everything.

[ruserious]

The process is as follows,


Blame Storming by Fleet using ELOM and Flight Safety envidence
Blame Shifting to least wasta individual (pilot)
Blame Apportioning
Punishment, warning letter, loss of profit share, delayed command or demotion
Start looking for another airline to work for

[Plank Cap]

It's not just the airline that's rapidly approaching V1 on the pending accident scale - our dearly beloved regulator (the GCAA) is shamefully turning a blind eye to certain issues, fatigue being just one of them.

Case in point - EK count 'stick time' only for augmenting crews in relation to our annual and 28 day flying limits. eg: DXB - IAH block time 16:30, only 8 hours or less will actually be recorded for the augmenting crew.

This leads to an actual annual total for some EK pilots of well in excess of 900 hours block time, as the GCAA knows only too well. They will also tell you that they are not in agreement with EK's methods of this hour limit calculation but are unwilling and unable to currently do anything about it. Talk about caving in to political and commercial pressure.

Tale - dog - wagging..................?

[sheikmyarse]

I amdit yuo aer ritgh Ahrry....I'm a liltle paraniod!!

[sheikhmahandy]

I am trying my hardest to leave EK before the inevitable accident!!!!!:ugh:

[Fart Master]

Apparently everybody at the GCAA is running around with their hair on fire cos the FAA are auditing them in Nov

[stylo4444]

How interesting to read all this. I'm not a pilot, but a frequent EK flyer.

Let me tell you how much I do not enjoy reading how some pilots on here are basically guaranteeing an accident happening soon. I understand the airline having problems, and how things are done differently in the ME...but to say that the airline is bracing for a hull loss soon, doesn't give me much confidence in the boys flying the thing up front. Sad.

[faheel]

Ahh stylo

then best you just read the marketing departments blurb on the fine wines,comfy seats and attractive cabin crew :ok:

[stylo4444]

LOL, it's probably best I do that as a way of distracting myself from what really goes on.

[Marooned]

Stylo, what has really gone on are cost cuts after cost cuts. Increases in productivity pushing all staff, flight and ground, to unsafe levels so that you can enjoy a cheap ticket and Dubai Inc has a source of income.

Yes it happens in other airlines but there are no 'limits' here, only 'targets' and the GCAA are led by the airline and there is nothing in between to moderate it.

It is not just the pilots warning of a serious accident. We will however be the ones held accountable for it, but there will be many others who will be responsible.

[pool]

stylo, you might be a little less condescending on the jockeys if you knew that one postholder training (the responsible guy for that matter) raised attention to the whole safety problem at a higher up meeting, just to be issued a warning letter from the big boss.

Does that answer the question about any kind of safety culture at this outfit?

[abZorbatheleak]

I don't believe Emirates is "waiting for a hull loss" There is always going to be a tug of war between flight safety and the commercial departments in an airline. Safety cost money and that invariably eats into the bottom line.

The balance was good until the financial crisis started and pressure was put on all departments within the airline to save money. Unfortunately the top management in flight operations saw an opportunity to cut costs by making flight crews work 20% more at no extra pay. An unpopular decision to say the least. Unfortunately this also results in increased fatigue and unsatisfactory rosters. The big question to be asked is, is it unsafe. Most experts would think so. A GCAA auditor recently told me that the regulator feels that anything above 70 hours a month starts to impose an exponential risk to safety. Who knows.

The GCAA are aware of all the issues and are trying to rectify them. But as the same GCAA inspector told me "They need more paperwork from us". :confused:

[BYMONEK]

Pool

The advantage of forums such as these will always allow statements to be made with very little opportunity for validation. Despite the negative perception many pilots have regarding the safety and reporting culture within Emirates, I find it very hard to believe that such action would be taken for someone expressing a safety concern.

I actually find it disappointing when statements such as this are made. It does nothing whatsoever to enhance safety in our operation, in fact, quite the opposite. It undoes the hard work that many people put in to encourage the reporting of genuine safety issues. It also creates a fear culture, often based on rumour rather than fact.

Even if your claim is true, there is always a lot more to a story than first meets the eye.

[Kamelchaser]

I've been battling for weeks now to have "SK" on my roster replaced with "SKF"..(for those not familar with EK codes..."SK" is sick, "SKF' is fatigued.

..clinic doctor signed off, ASR filed, fatigue report lodged. And still it's on my roster as "sick". No response to a number of emails sent to fleet...oh what a surprise.

One would think that perhaps certain people in this company really don't want the GCAA to see the number of fatigue reports going in?

[sheikmyarse]

Better you start looking for alternatives.... mate.

[sheikmyarse]

What makes me really laugh is that most of the people miss the big picture.
Dubai social and cultural level is at the Middle Age.
It is governed by a guy dressed peculiarly that is just interested in money.
Unfortunately he thought the world was full of idiot ready to buy a property in his Middle Age reign but that was not the case. The reign is crumbling.
EK is not interested in safety is interested in money to give him to repay the humungous debt he managed to make building some of the most absurd constructions in the world.
EK to make this money is using a Middle Age style with a Gestapo touch i.e.
enslaving employers and taking them to the limit.
All the rest is just bull****. Until there will be a major accident, or he will have repaid his debts there will be no improvement and the people who will raise concerns will be very simply punished.

[MumbaiRadio]

Mhhh.. sheik I thought ".. we were back..' :)

[pool]

The advantage of forums such as these will always allow statements to be made with very little opportunity for validation.

The last time I checked this was still called a rumour network and not a validation network (did too many RNP appr in the sim??).


I actually find it disappointing when statements such as this are made. It does nothing whatsoever to enhance safety in our operation, in fact, quite the opposite. It undoes the hard work that many people put in to encourage the reporting of genuine safety issues. It also creates a fear culture, often based on rumour rather than fact.

Great. So the posters here are the ones enhancing the fear culture and not the morons enforcing it ..... please, BYMONEK, you know better.

Even if your claim is true, there is always a lot more to a story than first meets the eye.

It is true and if there's more to it, feel free to let us share the knowledge. Such a statement is quite hollow anyway. Any statement, rumour, incident etc. posted on a forum qualifies for this. If we had to lay out the whole story, seen and documented from both sides, for everything posted, all forums could be closed, their reason of existence disclaimed.

[BYMONEK]

All i'm saying is when people read stuff on here, they may believe it to be true. It then does the rounds at work and because people have heard it from several different sources, it must be true?!! So, now what's the chance of a normal line guy speaking up or sticking in a safety report? Nil to zero would be my guess. Rumours are one thing, feeding the fear frenzy with unsubstantiated claims is another. As I havn't heard your story, perhaps you could share the knowledge with us. Or did you yourself hear it third hand?

Whilst I agree that more can and should be done from the Companies perspective, it's not an excuse for us to wash our hands of the problem. If we are aware of the culture restrictions preventing a 'just and non punitive' safety culture here in the ME, then we need to take a more active role in looking after each other.

[pool]

Point taken and I think we're on the same side. The thread is about EK safety culture. The mere fact that we are exchanging these argument points out that there is a real problem to that.
I would love to substantiate a little deeper what I reported, but you know as well as myself, that this would lead to repercussions.

ergo QED

[Comanche]

Thanks to all contributing to the thread I started.

I think reading between the lines, I can conclude that as long as you use common sense, stick to SOP's, don't do anything that could cause negative publicity, don't blatantly jeopardize safety (gross neglect) and don't upset anyone, then with a little bit of luck most guys will stay around. Sounds pretty much like most commercial airlines. Having said that, the fatigue issues related to higher productivity and factoring of hours does sound very worrying. I wonder how many times a year you can call in fatigued with EK before you are called into the office? Btw, in my current airline they take into account the number of sick days for your command assessment! How safe is that? Fatigue days show up in RED on your roster (hint, hint for management).

[Wizofoz]

nuff said but simply not true.

The sad part is (and I certainly blame EK for this) is that your friend thinks that way.

The truth is a Go-Around above 1000' is not even reportable. Below 1000' but above 500, EK requires an ASR but no action would be taken.

Sure, push it below 500' and questions would be asked, but that's the case in most airlines.

There are regular ASRs for approaches that became unstable, and no interview or follow up if the correct procedures were followed.

[sleeper]

Below 1000' but above 500, EK requires an ASR but no action would be taken.



I understand that the reason for a go-around must be reported. However an ASR ("safety") suggests that in safety was in jeopardy. A go-around executed as it should be, is a normal manoevre and does not jeopardise safety, on the contrary. So, do you guys/girls have to make an ASR or is a normal report sufficient?

[FUSE PLUG]

Studi,

I belive many of us here think (or thought) like you. The reality is that our safety culture is more of a fear culture. EK Flight Ops would not want it any other way and it is why we get ASR's like "Almost unstable approach"... ALMOST UNSTABLE? WTF! Is that worthy of a Safety report at your airline?

Example:
I did a go around from 300ft the other night in DXB because some turbo prop took his sweet ole time exiting the runway. Before passing through 1000ft I found myself thinking "I hope I did that exactly right, I have a kid on the way." That is the last thing I should be thinking about shortly after pressing TOGA. Did I think like that before joining EK? Never. It was never an issue. Before I would just fly the manuver (manouvre:ugh:) and focus on the next approach.

We do have a reporting culture here, but a reporting culture does not always lead to a safe airline when fear is the motivator for filing.

I'm sure there are going to be people who do not agree, but trust me, this palpable fear is alive and well.

FP

[Schibulsky]

Fuse, that pretty much sums up the situation at EK.
Lots of pilots I know flying with the fear of making an honest mistake.
That is the last thing that should be on your mind operating an aircraft!
It might be just that split second you need to make a crucial decision...but you waste it by thinking about what the company would do to you afterwards:eek:
That leads to a hesitant, insecure decision making that is ultimately unsafe!:ugh:

[nolimitholdem]

ox·y·mo·ron

"EK safety culture" belongs on the same list as:

-Exact estimate
-Clearly misunderstood
-Working vacation
-Business ethics
-Alone together
-Genuine imitation
-Microsoft Works

:}

[White Knight]

You can add that little chestnut;

Guest worker...

Back to the Go-Around comment a couple of posts back - it was found in my last airline by an audit that if the go-around procedure was briefed as part of the arrival briefing it was invariably flown perfectly. A couple of wayward incidents in which one of my colleagues bust the go-around altitude by 1500' showed that the lack of a brief for this manouevre caused the hash, primarily through incorrect mode management...
I think the go-around brief is one of the most important parts of the briefing but gets lost in all the CTWOF guff!!!

And indeed, the MAN guys were badly and unfairly treated. But WHY put in the arrival runway before you even take-off on what could be a very long sector? That creates a mind-set - far better to put the runway in the FMS when you receive the first arrival ATIS shortly before descent. All the nonsense about fuel planning is ridiculous as it'll only make a couple of hundred kilos difference by the end of a flight where (at least on the Airbus) you've made a few hundred kilos of fuel anyway...

[5star]

The situation in EK is exactly as Fuse puts it.
ASR reporting in EK is one of the biggest jokes out there. I stopped reading ASR reports some time ago. The learning experience is close to zero. I'm really not that interested to read that someone put the final flaps at 1450 iso 1500. Pure @rs covering. Not to mention the few critical ASR's, which really matter, which went misteriously missing... we all know a few don't we??!

For people not working here, it is very simple: read a few documents about culture and mentality in the Arab world and you will start to understand more...
Undoubtably there is a BIG fear factor in our cockpits and if past CRM and accident investigations have learned us anything it is: fear is your worst enemy. Do they care in EK: No.
:hmm:

[airbus757]

For those wondering if there is, or is not a fear culture at EK, just consider the fact that ASR reporting is mandatory. If it were not mandatory and there was no big brother recording every control movement how many ASRs do you think the safety department would get. The reason they would not get any is that pilots fear for there jobs, and would not risk it for a voluntary reporting system even though it is in the interest of safety. If there was no foqa installed on the airplanes there would be a huge drop in ASRs.

It is fear pure and simple. I see the same sort of control and intimidation every time i go for a drive. Many of the work trucks and vans have a little sticker on the rear bumper which says, "hows my driving. call xxxxxxxx to complain." it puts fear into the driver and forces him to drive safer. The thing is it probably works for the truck driver the same as it works for us. It is forced on him.

7

[Wizofoz]

a757,

Reporting of safety related incidents that fall into certain categories is mandatory everywhere in the world.

[BYMONEK]

Airbus757

Do you really think standards have improved? I think it makes no difference if they have a number stuck on their chariot of death. They may have 'thought about it' initially but within a week or so it's back to normal. Anyway, they are more of a hazard then a help. I've only once tried to ring the number of a complete numpty only to find myself jamming on the brakes before almost rear ending him. Maybe the doc was right, it is time to get glasses after all. Has anyone rung yet?

I do agree that the ME is a blame culture. It will be for many, many years and is unlikely to change. Running an Airline with this mentality is downright dangerous. That's why it's going to make no bloody difference come the board of enquiry so why go to work worrying. :cool:

You also hit the nail on the head re ASR's. Without the requirement to file ASR's, the number would be considerably less. Wouldn't it in every airline? Is that not, therefore, why we have certain parameters that if infringed, should be reported. It's a learning tool and there are many examples of 'interesting' approaches that are merely discussed with FS in a non jeapody environment. We don't hear about them because your mate is hardly likely to chat about his screw up at the next barbie, is he? It's another reason why the contents of them should be useful. I have no interest either in learning that the 'GEAR STEERING' warning came on because you didn't line up straight. If anyone in EK can honestly put their hand on heart and say that if I didn't put in a report for an event like that, I would get bollocked, then they really need to consider a career change.

studi

The majority of UK airlines I know have a 1000' policy for reporting go arounds. It's there not only for data collection of specific airport threats and trends, but also helps the CP answer Mrs Chowdry when she rings up complaining of the low go around. It's also a great way to see a pattern developing with an individual. Or should we just ignore the 1-2% of rogue pilots out there? It's not unique to EK.