Request for FJ wheels up pics

[Miles Magister]

I have been teaching airmanship at my son's Air Cadet unit about airfields and ATC during which I was telling them how useful the runway caravan is, however I can not seem to find any pics to show what happened during the times when the bean counters got rid of the caravans for a while. Do any of you good chaps have any pictures I could use?

At the end of my lesson during 'Any Questions?' my own son asked me 'Have you ever been helped by the runway controller?' No pocket money for him this week although I do wonder where he got his whit and repartee from!

Thank you in anticipation,
MM

[forget]

Not a wheels up but see Air Clues page 37.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/56E7EA9C_5056_A318_A8EDA7C89A771CD3.pdf

[Wrathmonk]

PM Trim Stab - he takes a very keen interest in FJ "no wheels" landings (or attempted landings). He must have a few photos and/or stories he could let you have:E;):ok:

[Ali Barber]

Check your messages.

[Wrathmonk]

I was telling them how useful the runway caravan is

which is what forget's link was refering to. More to runway caravan duties to checking gear is down ....

But then you probably didn't bother to read the link :E

[NutLoose]

Bit like this? Not the greatest place to forget to put it down LOL

YouTube - Airshow crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqiArXOodo4)

[JEM60]

NUTLOOSE.
He didn't forget to put it down. He was taking off, and retracted the wheels when just off the ground, and then sank back onto the runway. Slid for well over half a mile, I believe. I am sure that I have seen another video of the whole incident,including it getting airborne, but not such good quality. Pretty sure it's the same mishap.

[SirToppamHat]

This is a well-known one:

Tornado Late Overshoot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw3hLQVE7nc&feature=related)

STH

Edited to correct ac type muppetry.

[Saintsman]

Not RAF but these might do:

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/a-10-wheels-up-landing.jpg

http://www.targetlock.org.uk/b-1/b1_recovery_0.jpg

[TEEEJ]

JEM60,

I think that you are mixing up two incidents? The Russian Knights Su-27 was a landing.

The following MiG-29 was a take-off.

YouTube - Mig 29 aircraft accident (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGtU_HWPIcc)

TJ

[Aileron Roll]

If you google the RAAF F111 wheels up landing some great pics to be seen!

[Trim Stab]

I have been teaching airmanship at my son's Air Cadet unit about airfields and ATC during which I was telling them how useful the runway caravan is, however I can not seem to find any pics to show what happened during the times when the bean counters got rid of the caravans for a while


Why are you teaching that relying on the runway caravan to remind pilots to put the gear down is "good airmanship"?

Better to teach them that they should be responsible for putting the gear down themselves.

[bubblesuk]

If you google the RAAF F111 wheels up landing some great pics to be seen!


The video is better:ok:
WlReZySwPPY&feature=related

[the_boy_syrup]

http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/markhendy/EhuYiMb6cXgztpGAcaXcvFPBHedBTnxHs2ZZSEKpfB0ndrOyyLMxrPEfew84/photo.jpg.scaled.500.jpg


http://www.alexisparkinn.com/Photogallery2/1970%20BlueAngelCrashInCID/1970OoopsinCID.jpg

Blue Angels pilot explains what happened

ASB.TV Community > 1970 F-4 Blue Angels Crash In Iowa (http://www.asb.tv/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t565.html)

[JEM60]

TEEJ.
Many thanks. I had a feeling after I posted that it was a Mig 29. Memory playing tricks again.:uhoh:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Surely Miles Magister is looking for examples where shaving the asphalt was avoidable rather than those resulting from U/C failure? Having said that, Control Caravans have been useful for identifying the nature of a malfunction (thus giving the driver the best clues to exercising good airmanship).

[Gainesy]

Handy place for a cuppa while waiting to cross the runway is yer caravan. Then some jobsworth fitted a radio in the Landie...:(

[jindabyne]

GBZ

So true, but what the heck -----

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c192/jindabyne/wheels2.jpg

[Trim Stab]

Control Caravans have been useful for identifying the nature of a malfunction (thus giving the driver the best clues to exercising good airmanship).


Why not just use the control tower?

[Gainesy]

Hmm, must have snuck in when Two-Guns Dave* (RW Controller) was looking for the sugar, Jinda.

Interesting markings, 8 or 208 plus 43? Didn't know 43 went S of Tangmere.

(Pic is 5 August 1968 @ Khormaksar for the digiyoofs).

* He was at Akrotiri, once bounced a red off a Lightning as it was lining up, bit enthusiastic was Dave.

[sitigeltfel]

Why not just use the control tower?

You have to get close enough first.....

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/sitigeltfel/Hawkcrash.jpg

[Saintsman]

It's not just coming into land that caravans were useful.

I've stopped many aircraft in the past as I've spotted something wrong as they'd taxied past me on the line. That was just luck though. Having someone at the beginning of the runway who's job it is to give every aircraft a once over before it takes off will prove it's worth in the long run, especially if it saves someon'e life.

[ehwatezedoing]

Inside gear up landing footage for a change!

XlaJJXkS3uo

Not so funny for the one who did it :uhoh:

[jindabyne]

All explained in this interesting site Gainesy :cool:

Radfan and the Hawker Hunter (http://www.radfanhunters.co.uk)

[TEEEJ]

JEM60 wrote,

TEEJ. Many thanks.

No problem.

TJ

[Trim Stab]

Having someone at the beginning of the runway who's job it is to give every aircraft a once over before it takes off will prove it's worth in the long run, especially if it saves someon'e life.


That's the pilot's responsibility too.

How do the RAF manage when they visit civilian airfields?

[sitigeltfel]

Not every RAF airfield had a runway caravan. IIRC the main requirements were, MDA's, where flying training was taking place or if the runway threshold could not be seen from the tower.

[frodo_monkey]

That's the pilot's responsibility too.

How do the RAF manage when they visit civilian airfields?

Have you always been a chopper, or is it something you've taken up recently?

Feel free to give it the big "I am" about how great a pilot you are, but you should probably remember that a) you weren't good enough (and I say that as a non-pilot), and b) the least safe people are those whose self-belief exceeds their talent...

[grandfer]

Civvy/GA pilots don't really need a caravan , most of the aircraft they fly will have the gear down & welded anyway . As heard at Chiv. once when an Islander on finals was asked to "Check gear" by ATC . "Down & welded" was the reply .:ok:

[Trim Stab]

Some aggressive replies above.

I'm just curious as to why some RAF personnel seek to justify a caravan to avoid wheels up landings. It seems a bit of a sensitive subject though, given that some of you are getting a bit annoyed!

[Lockstock]

I went solo in a jet aircraft with retractable undercarriage at the tender age of 19 with around 50 hours total flying under my belt, as did many others at the time (don't get too jealous).

Because of that small amount of experience, the RAF's risk mitigation was to stick a caravan at the end of the runway - an insurance policy if you like against Mr. Cockup knocking at the door. Guess what? It worked and may have saved a few aircraft and crew from being mashed.

If you have a problem with that, then I'd seriously question your attitude towards flight safety.

[Trim Stab]

I think you are getting a bit uppity, trying to defend the indefensible. Landing wheels up has no excuse for a professional pilot, whether civilian or military.

Trying to blame it on a lack of caravans is absurd. The aircrew should take responsibility for the final checks themselves.

If you follow one of the links above to the contributions by the Blue Angels pilot who forgot to put the gear down, he doesn't try to blame a lack of caravans does he?

[forget]

Trim Stab, give it a rest for God's sake.:ugh:

[Trim Stab]

lol! Wheels up landings are obviously a touchy subject for the RAF.

[Biggus]

Here we go again.....

Trim - in the example quoted by Lockstock, a 19 year old with a total of 50 hours, is he a "professional pilot" as you refer to it, or a young and inexperienced individual who the system should try to support as much as possible, and can be expected to make mistakes - hopefully not disasterous ones.......

If you dislike military avaition so much why are you interested in becoming a reservist on FSTA????

[Dunbar]

Hehe..love the quote above about confidence exceeding ability...truest words in aviation.

As a civvie pilot (albeit one who displays ex-military aircraft) I have to say trim stab, there really are those that have and those that will...if they do enough of the right sort of flying.

Never forgotten the gear in me jet but one time after a particularly challenging display practice...well, let's just say I was grateful for the voice from the tower "Check greens".

To deny the possibilty of it happening to you...well, see the quote above.

Cheers

[Trim Stab]

As a civvie pilot (albeit one who displays ex-military aircraft) I have to say trim stab, there really are those that have and those that will...if they do enough of the right sort of flying.


What is the "right sort" of flying in your view? One where you don't make basic pre-landing checks?

[Dunbar]

You're a funny guy. You been flying long?

[Torque Tonight]

Your attitude to flighty safety is, quite frankly, retarded.

[Dunbar]

I wanted to, I really did, but I can't just leave it at that...:)

Challenging flight + distraction in the approach phase + single pilot (though that doesn't have to be the case) = possibility of failure to deploy undercarriage.

I know pilots should never do it, but as humans we are not naturally adapted to cope with all aspects of aviation and as an airliner TRI/TRE, single engine piston instructor and display pilot I appreciate the possibility that it might happen to me.

So should you, ace.

[Samuel]

It wasn't caravans alone that offered advice on landings etc. I know of lots of incidents where warnings from all sorts of people who worked on airfields were transmitted to the tower; things such as an aircraft lining up with a rudder lock still in place, and various bits falling off during take-offs.

[500N]

Since this thread has now drifted, I have a question.

If a jet is KNOWN to be coming in for a wheels up landing like in the F-111 Video,
why is foam or water not sprayed onto the runway beforehand to
decrease the amount of sparks / potential for fire ?

Thank you.

[arearadar]

Hi,
I don`t have any pics but I rember back in 1965, as runway controller at Manchester, I looked out at the A== Tu=== Bristol Freighter at the holding point. It had pretty ribbons hanging from the outer wings, rudder and elevators.

The tower said AT... cleared line up and take off !!!

I said AT... check for full and free movement.

5 seconds later the rear door opened, out jumped a man and removed the control locks, waving them at me as he got back in his aeroplane.

Three days later, same AT Freighter came in again and I was presented with bottles of Scotch!!!!

Ah....the good old days.

Dave

[frodo_monkey]

Trim Stab,

Have you heard of the concept of "distractions" or perchance the "Swiss cheese model"?

No-one in the RAF, or any of the Services, or indeed in civil aviation, has ever intended to land wheels-up - sometimes unfortunately it just happens. Generally, this isn't due to a one-off oversight, cavalier attitude or gashness, but a combination of events or misleading information (see Typhoon in China Lake).

If you really think that you are "a cut above", just remember that any idiot can buy an ATPL - you have to earn military wings.

For you:

Genuine Current RAF Military Cloth Badge Pilots Wings on eBay (end time 10-Oct-10 22:09:38 BST) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Genuine-Current-RAF-Military-Cloth-Badge-Pilots-Wings-/390246834261?pt=UK_Collectables_Badges_Patches_MJ&hash=item5adc862055)

£10.49 currently. To be honest, for someone who displays an unnatural interest in flying for the Services, you might do well do pin your ears back and listen, rather than spouting on about how great and professional you are.

Understand, never-was?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Why not just use the control tower?

I'm not sure what your experience has been of being an Aerodrome Controller but at Manch in '72, I found it easier and quicker to get the caravan man to step out with his binos by a nice safe runway than than to sod about moving Control Mobile (God I hated that Morris Minor) out to a suitable safe position to eyeball a DH125 with 2 geeens and a red. OK, I admit it; I should have asked him to fly by the Tower; the spotters would have been thrilled. :D

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

500N, I think for a couple of reasons. One, by the time the firies have finished laying enough of a foam blanket (and it has to be a big area to cover the potential landing area), they don't have much left for fighting any fire that may occur (water and foam are finite resources in a fire tanker, they are exhausted pretty quickly) and two, without the higher friction of a dry runway the aircraft will slide further and will suffer potential controllability issues, i.e. more likely to depart the runway.

[500N]

Traffic_Is_Er_Was

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

I understand where you are coming from. I picked the F-111 as they had 3 hours to prepare and of course the cable as well to stop the aircraft.

[JEM60]

I once watched an accidental wheels up landing take place. [small piston civvie] As we strolled over to it, my v experienced companion said ' well, two types of pilots. Those who have already done it, and those who haven't yet!!' Incidentally, does no-one in the tower EVER look at aircraft on finals to see if everything is as it should be?

[cornish-stormrider]

AreaRadar - good spot, well paid. that crew knows the price of keeping egg off face (at best) or Jet out of primary school.

TS - some of your points come across well but in this thread you, sir, are looking like a gibbon of the highest order....

So you've never made a mistake. Go You.

When you do, expect a huge crowd of ppruners to come over and go HA HA.

NOBODY is infalliable, only God is perfect and if I could count my **** ups on one hand I'd be happy.

Runway caravan = extra pair of eyes and another link in the flight safety chain, slightly off topic i caught some channel five show last night about deep sea diving - the old tender (divers bitch) said that if he got distracted or stopped during his see off checks (or equivalent of) he went back to the beginning and started again so he knew he hadn't missed anything. Lesson learnt from someone dying or similar.

try carrying that type of attitude around rather than I taught birds how to fly and I am awesome - we'd all sleep a bit safer that way

[Miles Magister]

Thank you for your pics and videos guys.

Some interesting and some revealing comments above. I tell my students, co-pilots and Cadets that Airmanship is all about the total understanding of what is happening in your bubble, which with experience should be several miles wide. Thank you to those posters above who have this awareness and also to those who think they have it.

Is the definition of 'the right type of flying' mentioned above where you have to climb into the aircraft through the roof?

As a flight safety officer, QFi, CRMI, FI and FE those doubters can rest assured I have told the Cadets about the whole value of the runway controller and others, including making sure they are looked after at Sqn parties along with crew chief etc. It is just that to keep the attention of a class of teenage boys learning about airfields and who are only doing it because they can not do the dirty fun things until they have passed the exam, a few dramatic pics helps to keep their interest.

Thanks again guys
MM

[Samuel]

"Since this thread has now drifted, I have a question.If a jet is KNOWN to be coming in for a wheels up landing like in the F-111 Video,
why is foam or water not sprayed onto the runway beforehand to
decrease the amount of sparks / potential for fire "?

Thank you.

The answer to that is that it has never been proven that foaming of a runway prior to a wheels-up has had any benefit. It is also problematical that major fire-fighting vehicles can produce a lot of foam in a short space of time, but they can't do that for the time necessary to complete a long foam path unless towed down a runway. They also have to be replenished with foam/water, and by the time they started and finished a foamed path, the entry point would have disappeared, and the aircraft possibly run out of fuel!

Some airfields classed as major diversion,once had specialised trailers of foam/water available, but they proved eventually to be totally impracticable and were disposed of. Your standard crash/fire vehicle cannot produce a foam pathgiven the time consrtaints of an imminent landing, so forget it and land anyway!

[Gainesy]

but they proved eventually to be totally impracticable

Possibly allied to the fact that the bean counters didn't like major assets "doing nothing most of the time".

[sitigeltfel]

I remember two instances at Manston where we laid foam. I believe Leeming was the only other airfield that had the capability and they always punted the stricken aircraft to Manston as they were operational. It took a long time to wash away the foam mess afterwards.

The first was a Canberra which blew its canopy off before landing as you could never predict which side the aircraft would settle its wings down on. Left wing down would possibly obstruct the door and the crew might have to clamber out through the top. It landed safely but one of the crew badly twisted an ankle when he slipped on the foam that spattered over the aircraft.

The most eventful one was a Dan Air Comet, full of charter tourists, with its nosewheel refusing to lower. We laid a centreline strip of foam starting midway down the runway, and the crew were briefed to lower the nose and start braking before running into the foam. For some reason they decided not to do this and held the nose up as long as they could. By the time they had lowered the nose they were well down the foam carpet and the mainwheel brakes were saturated in the slimy foam, reducing their effectiveness. It went off the far end by a few hundred yards demolishing the approach lights. Nobody was hurt but the first fireman who arrived at the bottom of the slide was surprised to be handed a bucket of false teeth by the first CC down.

[Miles Magister]

I recall from my flight safety course a long time ago that they advised the foam had no real affect as mentioned above.

I once came home with a fuel leak and as the main runway had just been napalmed by a Jag mate jettisoning all his stores on take off before jettisoning the airframe shortly afterwards, I had to land on the cross runway. With no diversions available the assembled station execs decided to use the fire trucks to foam the runway so my fuel would float on it and therefore not damage and black the cross runway. Short of fuel I then asked ATC what their crash cat was? A long silence ensued before an answer of zero was given. I landed anyway on a contaminated and flooded runway and we all lived to go to the bar as discuss the wisdom of the Stn Exec's decision!

MM

[Glockenklanger]

MM

'.... and also to those who think they have it.'

An interesting human factors concept is 'metacognition'. It has a number of definitions, but in aviation this is a persons knowledge of how good their situational awareness is. It's more dangerous having someone who thinks they're situationally aware but actually isn't, than someone who isn't situationally aware, but knows it. i.e. you know what you don't know, and act accordingly.

In a study of single and twin seat FJs crew in a simulated strike mission, all crew reported similar levels of SA, however, the single seat guys were shot down more times in the course of the mission. That is, they thought they were aware of everything they needed to be, but actually weren't. The twin seat crews, with a second pair of eyes, had a much more accurate estimation of the situation, in the high workload scenarios involved in low level work.

Cheers,

P

[Samuel]

As I said, there was never an incident where it was proved that a foam path was beneficial, and the US Navy spent a lot of money proving the theory!

There were far too many risks associated with it, like getting the width of the foam path just right, how long, how wide, how long can the aircraft stay aloft, could the crash vehicles be replenished in time, the list was a long one! It would be a brave man who committed his crash line to making foam on a runway! Crash vehicles today can produce foam while moving, but that wasn't always the case in the RAF, maybe still is, so the vehicle would have to be towed, and each vehicle can make foam for a relatively short period. The final nail in the concept was the change to to the type of foam compound carried on vehicles, from the old protein-base to the the film-forming- type developed as a result of the disastrous fires aboard US Navy carriers off Vietnam. The resulting foam was much, much more effective, but thinner. You wouldn't gain any benefit landing on it for sure!

The old protein-based foam compound was a brilliant fertiliser by the way, and if vehicles werefoam- tested around a source of heat, say landing approach lights, you could guarantee an almost endless supply of beautiful mushrooms! It was brilliant diluted and sprayed around roses!

[lederhosen]

Interesting to note along the lines of those that have and those that will.... the young Blue Angels Lt. doing the impressive finale to his display ended up as an admiral by way of Vietnam, commanding Top Gun and a carrier in the first Gulf War.