BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III

[TightSlot]

The story continues..........................

[BAAlltheway]

OOOOHH I get to go first!

ust trust me when I tell you that no one likes Willie Walsh and he does not inspire any of his workforce to be the best. We are products of a previous chief executive Colin Marshall who inspired us all to be the best and it is his legacy of customer service that runs through many of us.

Bettygirl.. I'm not sure who the "no one" you refer to is. Are you meaning CC? All BA staff? I wouldn't dream of speaking for you, or any other CC, nor any other department in BA, so whilst it may be the case in your area, i must disagree that Willie Walsh is universally disliked. On the contrary, in my department, and most of the others that i come into contact with, he is very well respected and liked. Sure, he is not from the fluffy fluffy give the crowd what they ask for school like Colin Marshall and Rod Eddington, and under WW i have had to work longer, harder, and for fewer bonuses/pay rises. However, under WW i feel that what i do IS important and makes a difference, and that he is working harder to make our company a viable one with a future.

I would take that any day over some one with flowery phrases who keeps doling out money on things that don't pay, and don't bring us returns. I come from a Customer service background in BA, and i will agree we have had to stop doing some things that we used to do. But most of these things are nice to do's that customers tell us they don't value enough to pay for. Times change, customers change, markets change, and we have to work out how to change with it, and do things cleverer.

Willie Walsh ain't perfect i'll agree, but i'm a fan, and will continue to be..

[ChicoG]

Customer Service? Every customer wants it and almost no customer is willing to pay for it.

And if you believe that, you might as well just go LCC and be done with it.

Fortunately, it's not true.

[notlangley]

Originally posted by 617sqn on 29 September 2010 (thread 2216 of Your thoughts and Questions II).

I am BA cc based at LHR worldwide fleet(longhaul)
We would never be rostered to do a trip with the entire crew again as it would not be possible. Some people may have part time, leave or UK request days next so it would not work.
I will check in for a long haul trip and not usually know anyone on the crew.
I can appreciate that this does sound strange to non flyers who have familiarity in their work place.
Crew, both in the cabin and the flight deck, get used to getting on board not even knowing everyone's names. We all know what tasks have to be done before passenger boarding. This is a very busy time so no real chit chat can take place.


What this means for a minority of the thousands of cabin crew is that after a decade or two of living without "chat", these few have not polished their way of speaking to colleagues who have different ideas and views about xyz (xyz can be unions or management or BASSA or CC89 or just about anything that other cc say).
What is the answer to social starvation?_ The only worthwhile answer has to be one discovered and developed by cabin crew.

[PAXboy]

ChicoGb
Quote (PAXboy): Customer Service? Every customer wants it and almost no customer is willing to pay for it.
And if you believe that, you might as well just go LCC and be done with it.
Fortunately, it's not true.Indeed, which is why I said 'almost'. Some customers will pay for extra service on some occasions and some will always want/need to find the lowest price irrespective of whether the service is good or bad. As with all aspects of human behaviour, it's a long and winding line.

However, in the depths of this recession with some way still to go, price is king for most people. Then there is the topic that, many of the aspects of service that suppliers (of all types) have spent ages designing and training their staff to deliver - never even get noticed by some of their customers!

[LD12986]

Some positive news for once, BA's traffic numbers are up year on year, with the all important premium traffic up 4.3% (I know BASSA acolytes have previously delighted in falling passenger numbers).

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9NjQ5ODB8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlP TM=&t=1

[pcat160]

Another new long haul service beginning next summer announced today: LHR-SAN using a three class 777. This is good news and generates more growth for Mixed Fleet.:ok:

[JUAN TRIPP]

Sorry but where was this announced? Can't see it anywhere on Ba's schedule.

Just seen it now. Sorry

[Chuchinchow]

A certain British Airways flight attendant, over on the crew thread, has informed her (or his) readers:
BA is becoming a great place to work at. As of October 7th we will have to work with VCC on certain WW flights. At least it removes some of the pressure on our EF colleagues who have had to work with them for some time but it's outrageous and provocative. We shouldn't be forced to work with people who are nothing but prolonging our dispute.

Flight Attendant , there is a constant and repetitive strand that links each and every message you have posted: your near pathological hatred of British Airways, the current state of IFCE and BA's Chief Executive. Your last sentenceWe shouldn't be forced to work with people who are nothing but prolonging our dispute. says it all.

No one is forcing Flight Attendant to come to work for a company whose business plans and ideals are clearly anathema to her (or him). Why prolong the agony of having to fight an indefensible position, Flight Attendant?

Your beloved trade union, BASSA, has clearly abandoned you and hung you and your ilk out to dry.

Cut your losses, Flight Attendant, and resign from a company that you have so clearly come to hate and despise. Believe me: there is a whole world outside British Airways - even for someone who professes not to have ever had any other form of employment in her (or his) life.

[Lotpax]

CCC

The best way to deal with people, whom you believe have extreme views, on bulletin boards is to ignore them.

All you are doing is pouring petrol on a fire that was not burning very well.

Or to put it another way, do not dignify their rantings.

I am taking two British Arways flights later today and will not give this poster a passing thought.

My only concern is whether the service in Club Europe will be any good, as it has been poor on the last two.

[ChicoG]

Lotpax, I hope you reported your dismay via the online complaint form (rather than the CSD complaint form lottery)?

[Chuchinchow]

Thank you, Lotpax, for that gratuitous advice.

I can only hope that if you are served by "Flight Attendant" on your Club class flight today she (or he) can be bothered to offer you hot towels.

It's a point about which she (or he) is somewhat particular. She (or he) has often told us hot towels are one of BASSA's main weapons in its struggle against her (or his) oppressive employer, British Airways. So she (or he) takes action against the very passengers who contribute so much to paying her (or his) salary. Crazy, but that's the way this person fights her (or his) personal war.

I am sorry to be so coy and circumspect in describing this person but she (or he), who seems to believe she (or he) is a legend in her (or his) own bunk break time, has a distinct aversion to being identified in any way or form. That's strange, seeing that she (or he) is probably one of the most zealous promoters of the BASSA cause on these boards.

So no names, no pack drill.

[Lotpax]

CCC

To be honest, it's a bit difficult to decide whether the other poster or you is ranting the most :ugh:

Tonight maybe the first time, but I have never failed to get a hot towel in Club World and never received less than professional, competent service.

CE on the other hand is simply not worth the money presently and much of that is due to reduction in the hard product, a management decision.

ChicoG

I wrote to to the CEO and am having a dialogue with a helpful lady in the customer service team, who seems to be on the case.

[call100]

CCC

To be honest, it's a bit difficult to decide whether the other poster or you is ranting the most :ugh:

Tonight maybe the first time, but I have never failed to get a hot towel in Club World and never received less than professional, competent service.

CE on the other hand is simply not worth the money presently and much of that is due to reduction in the hard product, a management decision.

ChicoG

I wrote to to the CEO and am having a dialogue with a helpful lady in the customer service team, who seems to be on the case.
Couldn't agree more with you there LP...;)

[pcat160]

There has been considerable discussion about various legal actions which would be undertaken by Unite/Bassa/et al in various courts. Other than the appeal of the original suit over crewing levels/imposition have any additional actions been initiated?

[ninja-lewis]

Has anybody noticed http://www.bassa.co.uk seems to redirect to • BASSA• Welcome (http://xxxx.bassa.co.uk/) - a black page with a single yellow cross.

[MissM]

Chuchinchow

Let's sort this out once and for all because this is getting out of hand.

Why are you going on about me on this forum? Is it because I refused to communicate with you further unless you would exclude personal attacks and insults in your posts, to which you replied "I could not care less" yet continued to send me personal messages? I have all of them saved.

Please find the post in which I have stated that the hot towel issue is one of BASSA's strongest weapons. Perhaps if you knew the history of this issue you might have been of a different opinion. It goes back as far as to 9/11 when BA had to make rapid changes to which BASSA responded quickly. As long as everything is negotiated and agreed I will not have a problem delivering the service.

I don't see anything wrong with saying that I am very good at my job. I know it will be very difficult for you to believe following but I happen to like what I do. I would like to say that I do my very best every time I am at work and I provide the service which our customers expect from BA. Lastly, to your information, I never work in our CE cabin as I work on our WW fleet.

[Betty girl]

Just want to make sure anyone reading this thread realises that it is hot towels in World Traveller plus that Bassa members are not doing.

Hot towels in Club World (ww flights) are being done.

Hot towels in Club Europe (E/F flights) were removed by BA and cannot be done because they are no longer ever loaded on the flights.

[AlpineSkier]

Miss M

You seem to be under an illusion about the following.

We are the reason as to why BA was once the world's favourite airline. Sure

The people who made BA "The world's favourite airline " were McCann-Erickson or Saatci and Saatchi not BA cabin staff.

It was an advertising slogan, nothing else. Nobody ever voted BA as being that.

One illusion down and about twenty-five to go.

I believe you recently also re-posted that absolute nonsense about BA and BASSA only being 10 million apart in savings when negotiations were taking place.

This lie has been de-bunked so often, but you still have the brass-neck to re-post it.

Do you have no shame ?

[call100]

The personal attacks are now getting out of hand....If you can't comment on the situation without resorting to it then maybe it's better not saying anything.
It would be interesting if everyone posted their salaries, job descriptions and benefits along with their bile, so that the playing field was evened up slightly......:rolleyes::ugh:

[Rhayader]

Having read both threads more or less from the start there is one thing that concerns me as SLF.

With all the bile and invective being thrown about between strikers, non-strikers, VCC and in some cases the flight deck; how is this impacting on your work performance? I do not mean the hot towels or the meal service but more the safety critical aspects of your duties. Before I get jumped on with comments such as 'I/we/they would not be so un-professional to let that affect my performance', I will tell you that it does impact on your actions and in the vast majority of cases you are not conscious of it.

In my experience of assessing competance and managing traincrew I have had to remove from safety critical duties a number of staff who thought they were performing well but had underlying issues (financial, personal and colleague related among others) that was having a detrimental, or I thought could have detrimental effect, on the safety of the customers in the event of an incident.

Are measures put in place to ensure that the acrimony displayed on these boards and on picket lines is not carried over into the cabin?

[Litebulbs]

Good call, call.

It would be interesting to see how much BA management grade pay is;)

[notlangley]

Double letter on crewforum

[LD12986]

Good call, except this dispute has never been about pay. The staff costs of all BA departments compared to other airlines are on the CAA website.

As for management, BA senior management pay is certainly lower than that of its FTSE 100 peers. There are FDs of large plcs who earn far more than WW does as CEO.

If you go on strike and seek out public support, you cannot expect your terms and conditions to escape public scrutiny and criticism.

[Diplome]

What relevance does BA management salary have to the issue of Cabin Crew?

Last I looked BA wasn't a collective.

Management makes more...as they should.

[sempir]

Not sure if this is the correct thread so am wearing safety gear. What are "new fleet"and "mixed fleet"? Taa.:confused:

[Lotpax]

I will tell you that it does impact on your actions and in the vast majority of cases you are not conscious of it.Interesting comment. Last night my CE inflight service was delivered professionally and competently, unlike the previous two.

But I did not see a single smile from the three crew in our cabin.

The flight met the standards I expect for service delivery and that is good enough for me.

On the CW flight, it was service as usual, with just one hiccup, the seat I was allocated had several large areas of dried white/cream stains on it. Fortunately there was a spare seat available for take off and then the CC member in my area (who was really nice, as well as professional) changed the cushion so I could return to the original place.

The contrast between crew body language and facial expressions could not have been more noticeable.

Edited to add that I am not saying the difference between the two crews was anything to do with the strike, just that we pax do notice whether crew are apparently happy/not happy.

[Betty girl]

Sempir,
Mixed Fleet is a new fleet that BA are starting up with different terms and conditions to the Current Fleets which are World Wide, Euro Fleet and Single Fleet Gatwick. Some posters refer to it as New Fleet but it is the same thing.

If you look through all the posts on the previous threads British Airways V Bassa, there have been a few, you will find the answer to all your questions.

[Colonel White]

Call100 Job title ? totally irrelevant, its job dimensions that are important. Salary ? again not useful, there are some skills that have a higher value to organisations than others. In aviation, flight crew earn commensurately more than most managers with equivalent line responsibilities. Equally, you'll find that general admin workers tend to earn less than IT programmers. If you look at most organisations the highly paid folk tend to be the sales force, who get commission. I fai to see how publishing such information would even up the playing field.

[rethymnon]

As an erstwhile student of Industrial Relations - and once a P/T lecturer on HR, it is worth bearing in mind that this strike will one day form the basis of an academic dissertation or even a book. I do hope that all the posts on Pprune will be saved as they will undoubtedly be invaluable to whoever undertakes this task.

Can I ask whether I am right in concluding that the BASSA leadership (sic) is predominately made up of senior cabin crew - CSDs and Pursers? If that is correct, how come that the more junior ranks are so under- represented? Could this explain what appears to be some rather skewed decision making?

[Mariner9]

Rethymnon, according to that ever-reliable source Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airlines_Stewards_and_Stewardesses_Association) ;) the Bassa leadership is made up predominantly of sacked/suspended/long term sick senior cabin crew.

If accurate, it is clear to see why BASSA have no interest in ending this dispute. Having said that, the Wikipedia entry for BASSA was clearly authored by someone with an anti-BASSA view!

The British Airlines Stewards and Stewardesses Association (BASSA) is a branch of the British trade union Unite.

BASSA was originally formed exclusively for British Airways (BA) cabin crew.

BASSA now has other branches representing cabin crew at other airlines. Branch 1/1117 is for Thomson Airways cabin crew.[1]

Originally part of the Transport and General Workers' Union (T&GWU), BASSA is now part of Unite. Membership is falling from a high point of over 11,000 in 2009. At 8 August 2010 membership stood at 9,555; one month later on 8 September 2010 membership stood at 9,279 before this information was removed from the website and updated to read "about 10,000". This still makes BASSA one of the largest branches of Unite.[2]

BASSA is managed by a committee of wholly elected representatives, which disproportionally consists in the main of CSDs and Pursers from the Heathrow World Wide fleet, all of whom are usually operational staff with their airline, though two are on disciplinary charges for gross misconduct. As at August 2010, Duncan Holley, the Branch Secretary, is the exception to this rule, and remains in his BASSA role despite having been sacked from British Airways for gross misconduct.

The current chairperson is Lizanne Malone, a BA Cabin Services Director, who has not worked operationally for over a year, and who married an American, resides in Los Angeles, California.[3]

Headquartered at the Unite offices at Harlington, Middlesex, BASSA has support offices in Abbey House at Heathrow Airport, and in Jubilee House at Gatwick Airport. BASSA provides a secure website to service its members, 10% of whom reside overseas.[4]

As of February 2010, BASSA is facing competition from the newly formed Professional Cabin Crew Council

[notlangley]

I think that it is fundamental to homo sapiens that some will exploit others - therefore I believe that trades unions are very important (I would like to say essential) for civilised societies in which corruption is low.

What puzzles me is why World Fleet and Euro Fleet are not regarded by Unite as being different and separate work units._ The terms and conditions are clearly different with World Fleet receiving extra payments._ If only the two joint secretaries of Unite had realised this and imposed (am I allowed to say "imposed") this division then at least one of the two JS would today be planning his grand entry into the House of Lords.

[TSR2]

BASSA now has other branches representing cabin crew at other airlines. Branch 1/1117 is for Thomson Airways cabin crew.[1]

So are the members THOSSA's ... Sorry, I'll get my coat.

[Diplome]

Had to smile when I read this:


I think that it is fundamental to homo sapiens that some will exploit others


Any thinking person would apply the same motiviation to Unions in relation to their members as Employers and their employees.

No heroes to be found in that statement.

[Lotpax]

Any thinking person would apply the same motiviation to Unions in relation to their members as Employers and their employees.

Non sequitur.

Union officials are elected by the members, so they have to deliver something to keep tenure.

Don't equate BASSA to normal union, it is not.

[Chuchinchow]

Chuchinchow

Why are you going on about me on this forum?

MissM

I think you are getting more than a little paranoid and self-important.

Was your name mentioned in either of my messages? No. On the other hand, if the cap fits you are more than welcome to wear it.

If you can't take the heat, MissM, get out of the kitchen and quit moaning.

Perhaps you should quit your job with British Airways, too: an employer you so clearly hate and despise.

[ChicoG]

I think that it is fundamental to homo sapiens that some will exploit others - therefore I believe that trades unions are very important (I would like to say essential) for civilised societies in which corruption is low.

Not when that union is BASSA, who in my opinion manipulate and exploit their members to the extreme and are clinging on to their positions, being paid handsomely for doing so, despite have absolutely NO right to do so other than a show of hands from the more rabid bunch of Bedfont berks.

[notlangley]

Judgement Day (http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/list_coacivil.htm)

[notlangley]

Lotpax quite reasonably says Union officials are elected by the members, so they have to deliver something to keep tenure.However Mrs Justice Cox said on 17 December 2009
Before the ballot closed on 14th December BA wrote to UNITE on 11th December, asking them to confirm the accuracy of the numbers and asking whether or not voluntary redundancy leavers had in fact been included in the figures. Unite did not reply.
Also from Mrs Justice Cox (http://www.casetrack.com/ct4plc.nsf/items/4-501-3439)

In the absence of a response from the union, BA wrote a more detailed letter on 14 th December, i.e. the day that the ballot closed. This informed the union in the clearest terms that BA was concerned as to the inclusion of voluntary redundancy leavers in the process. Rather than respond to that concern, however, UNITE served on BA the result of the ballot and the notice of industrial action.

[Lotpax]

Not Langley

My point is simply that one cannot directly compare a union to an employer.

The board keeps tenure by convincing the shareholders they have a done a good job whereas senior union employees retain their job by convincing the members of the same.

One may argue that both exploit employees/members (delete as appropriate.)

[notlangley]

Yes Lotpax I agree with your last posting._ But everyone has a different vista of the World._ I am limited by my view that within every individual is the wish for good for neighbours and strangers - but this wish coexists with an opportunist potential that results in the exploitation of others._ Most people will completely disagree and will helpfully explain that they themselves happen to be altruistic in nature (what a pity that do-gooder has become word of insult).

The quote from Mrs Justice Cox was to highlight that the fault was Unite and not BASSA._ This time last year Unite and BASSA were singing from the same page in the hymn book._ Since then, there was a sermon._ BASSA did not listen to the sermon._ But if the window-blind episode is anything to go by, Unite have understood the words and taken them back to their Chapel._ IMO 2011 will be a watershed for BASSA cabin crew - and non-BASSA cabin crew members need to be understanding and helpful.

[brocstar]

As 'self loading freight', customer, passanger - in fact whatever you like to call me I have been reading this thread for what seems like forever.

I appreciate that the current 'dispute' affects many people differently - so let me tell you as one who is COMPLETELY outside of these events apart from being a potential customer how it affects me and my thoughts and opinions.

I travel a lot by air within Europe and I will NEVER use BA unless forced ever again. Over a longish period of time I have found the cabin crew to be arrogant and dismissive, to do the least required and to treat the customers as a 'have to be endured nuisance'.

I don't care whether they are members of BASSA, UNITE or the local church wives/husbands group, on our last 4 flights my wife and me have been made to feel as if we (and the other passangers) are merely an inconvenient annoyance.

I would not like to have to think of any crew member having to work in an unpleasant atmosphere - whatever their views, but perhaps some of them deserve it.

I look forward to the day when I can use BA again without wondering how unpleasant the experience will be.

Brocstar

[MissM]

MissM

I think you are getting more than a little paranoid and self-important.

Was your name mentioned in either of my messages? No. On the other hand, if the cap fits you are more than welcome to wear it.

If you can't take the heat, MissM, get out of the kitchen and quit moaning.

Perhaps you should quit your job with British Airways, too: an employer you so clearly hate and despise.

Paranoid? I know exactly what I am talking about. My name was mentioned, from what I can remember, twice in one of your previous messages. There's no need for you to claim otherwise.

Why should I leave BA? Because I happen to be unsatisfied with our present management who are wanting to get rid of us because we are too expensive? Perhaps if you were in my situation you would might feel the same way.

[Chuchinchow]

MissM has advise me that:Perhaps if you were in my situation you would might feel the same way.

No, MissM, quite the opposite.

If I was in your situation I would consider my personal situation, the general state of my health, the deleterious effects of the strain caused by the events at my place of work during the last couple of years, and the consequent effects of all this on the people closest to me.

If I was in your situation I would also consider the fact that the leadership of the trade union that I had so passionately supported, and to which I had faithfully contributed to every month, had clearly not acted in my best interests.

If I was in your situation I would ask the leadership of that union why, after more than a year and a half of dealing with my employer, it had not managed to reach any sort of equable solution to its original grievance.

If I was in your situation I would further ask the leadership of my union just why it made braggart declarations that misled its members. The return of staff travel privileges "within five minutes" is but one of those foolish assertions. You, of all people, will no doubt remember (and cringe at the memory of) many, many more of those bombastic statements.

If I was in your situation I would ask myself just what future I have with an employer who has cleverly side-stepped my trade union and its inept leadership, which has made a considered decision to push on with its business plan without further reference to diehard strikers and bovine dissenters.

If I was in your situation, having taken all of the above into consideration, I would ask myself if it would be worth my while to risk being shunted into a dead-end position with my employer (do you really want to stay as a purser until SOSR, compulsory redundancy or retirement catch up with you?). After all, it is you who has admitted that your costs of employment by British Airways are expensive, not me.

If I was in your situation, and having been let down by my bumbling and incompetent union branch secretary and my self-serving union representatives, I would consider my job-related assets and skills and seek more congenial employment.

There is a whole world and possibly a better life outside British Airways' world-wide fleet, you know. No getting out of the country every week or so to far-flung and (possibly) exotic places, and no strutting and preening on airport concourses so that all and sundry can see you in your BA uniform, that much is true, but meaningful and satisfying work nevertheless that would benefit both you and the community at large.

As for your assertion that yourname was mentioned, from what I can remember, twice in one of your previous messages so what? Those who live by the pen must be prepared to . . .

[Mr Optimistic]

Wasn't the original dispute about 'imposition', regarding removal of one position per crew (or getting the nco's to chip in with the general effort) ? Where did the 'want to get rid of us' bit come from, a compulsory redundancy exercise I haven't heard about ? Mind you, wouldn't doubt that things have changed and that perhaps now it is possible that many do in fact want a clean start without you.

[MissM]

If I was in your situation I would consider my personal situation, the general state of my health, the deleterious effects of the strain caused by the events at my place of work during the last couple of years, and the consequent effects of all this on the people closest to me.

My health is excellent, thank you. My personal situation is fine too.

If I was in your situation I would also consider the fact that the leadership of the trade union that I had so passionately supported, and to which I had faithfully contributed to every month, had clearly not acted in my best interests.

BASSA are trying their very best to protect our interests including our terms and conditions. As an outside I can understand if this is difficult to acknowledge and understand.

If I was in your situation I would ask the leadership of that union why, after more than a year and a half of dealing with my employer, it had not managed to reach any sort of equable solution to its original grievance.

Blame it on the union. Surely our management could never be responsible for not reaching an agreement with us.

If I was in your situation I would further ask the leadership of my union just why it made braggart declarations that misled its members. The return of staff travel privileges "within five minutes" is but one of those foolish assertions.

Be rest assured that ST will be returned sooner or later. Personally I don't need it but many of our commuting crew do. Surprisingly there was a huge amount of commuters on strike which would indicate that the threat of removal of ST which BA made did not work. It would, on the other hand, indicate that they are worried about their careers.

If I was in your situation I would ask myself just what future I have with an employer who has cleverly side-stepped my trade union, and its inept leadership, at every turn and has made a considered decision to push on with its business plan without further reference to diehard strikers and dissenters.

As long as BA are in dispute with us there will never be any peace. It should also be in WW's best and personal interest to sort it out before he can actually move on to become the leader of IAG.

If I was in your situation, having taken all of the above into consideration, I would ask myself if it would be worth my while to risk being shunted into a dead-end position with my employer (do you really want to stay as a purser until SOSR, compulsory redundancy or retirement catch up with you?)

Strangely SOSR is something which has been rumoured for a very long time and has yet not been issued. Last time this rumour circulated was back in May during the strike. Personally I don't think they will ever issue it because otherwise it would have been.

If I was in your situation, and having been let down by my bumbling and incompetent union branch secretary and my self-serving union representatives, I would consider my job-related assets and skills and seek more congenial employment.

There is a whole world and possibly a better life outside British Airways' world-wide fleet, you know. No getting out of the country every week or so to far-flung and (possibly) exotic places, and no strutting and preening on airport concourses so that all and sundry can see you in your BA uniform, that much is true, but meaningful and satisfying work nevertheless that would benefit both you and the community at large.

I don't feel let down by my union. Of course there's a world outside BA but what if you happen to like your job? Has that ever crossed your mind?

so what? Those who live by the pen must be prepared to . . .

So what? Maybe you don't understand but perhaps it was given to you in confidence, something which you don't seem to appreciate, as I never expected you to tattle it all over a public forum. Thanks a lot. I realise I never should have given it to you, but hey, we all make mistakes.

[rethymnon]

I suppose we must assume that the Moderator is satisfied that 'MissM' is real?

[Chuchinchow]

Quote:
"If I was in your situation I would ask the leadership of that union why, after more than a year and a half of dealing with my employer, it had not managed to reach any sort of equable solution to its original grievance."

Blame it on the union.

Glad you agree with +/- 90% of the readers of this thread MissM

[Chuchinchow]

MissM has reproved me, saying;

Strangely SOSR is something which has been rumoured for a very long time and has yet not been issued. Last time this rumour circulated was back in May during the strike. Personally I don't think they will ever issue it because otherwise it would have been]

No, it may not. But how about the voluntary redundancy package that you seem to be so greedy and willing to accept - if its terms satisfy your requirements. See your post #62, 6 October 2010, at 17:45:
As much as some of you obviously would prefer me to do, I won't be going anywhere for a while. Maybe if BA offered me a good VR package I would consider it!

Funny how even the most rabid union supporter has her (or his) price. Or is it possibly rodents desperately seeking to disembark from a vessel in distress?

[MissM]

Glad you agree with +/- 90% of the readers of this thread MissM

I was being sarcastic...

No, it may not. But how about the voluntary redundancy package that you seem to be so greedy and willing to accept - if its terms satisfy your requirements. See your post #62, 6 October 2010, at 17:45:

I have only said that I have no intention of leaving BA. I would, however, consider leaving should they offer another round of a VR package. Why? Because our days are definitely counted in this company. Call me 'so greedy' if you wish but that's certainly not the case. If I could stay in BA until I retire I would.

Funny how even the most rabid union supporter has her (or his) price. Or is it possibly rodents desperately seeking to disembark from a vessel in distress?

Desperately seeking to disembark? Not at all.

And, please leave out '(or his)' in the future.

[jghill]

I see the bassa website is up to three x's!

[Chuchinchow]

And, please leave out '(or his)' in the future.

You stick to your prose style, MissM, and I will stick to mine.

[Litebulbs]

I suppose we must assume that the Moderator is satisfied that 'MissM' is real?

The same could be asked of you?

[Litebulbs]

I would just like to say that you are holding yourself in a very professional manner. There are probably many things that we don't agree on, with the dispute in question, but I have complete respect in the way that you put your point.

However, my opinion doesn't really count for too much on pprune!

[Lotpax]

I fail to see how Miss M can be accused of being greedy for mentioning VR on the one hand, then be told she should leave BA on the other.

Doesn't make any sense to me and any reasonable person would consider a VR offer, before deciding whether it suited their needs or not.

I do not support BASSA's cause, but Miss M should not be pilloried for doing so.

[MissM]

Litebulbs

Thank you! The same could be said for you. And, your opinion does count. :)

Lotpax

The only person accusing me of being greedy is Chuchinchow who appears to have taken a hostile stance on me. I do agree with you that any reasonable person would consider leaving if VR is being offered. There's nothing wrong with it and certainly not a greedy behaviour. It would have been a greedy behaviour if I had expected or even demanded BA to offer it. That's not the case.

Thanks to you too :)

[Chuchinchow]

a hostile stance on me

A hostile stance to me, perhaps, but still wrong.

And do not try to wriggle out of or to disavow statements you so clearly made here, in writing. Everybody has her (or his) price; in this case it is merely a question of when and how much MissM would accept.

[Mr Optimistic]

...to drop the '(or his)' qualifier since this is implies some doubt over bona fides for which I see no cause.

[PleasureFlyer]

Blame it on the union. Surely our management could never be responsible for not reaching an agreement with us.


Wasn't it proven in court that it was the unions fault an agreement wasn't reached due to the different parts of the union not even willing to be in the same room as each other?

[Litebulbs]

Wasn't it proven in court that it was the unions fault an agreement wasn't reached due to the different parts of the union not even willing to be in the same room as each other?

An interesting refresher -

Malone & Ors v British Airways Plc [2010] EWHC 302 (QB) (19 February 2010) (http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2010/302.html&query=title+(+Malone+)&method=boolean)

The way I see the thrust of this, is that the contract was not linked clearly to industrial agreements. I am presuming that the appeal will be trying to prove the link.

[notlangley]

Today is X/X/MMX (or X/X/X)
at 10 a.m. it will be X/X/X/X

[Mr Optimistic]

:} Give or take a millenium

[notlangley]

On 17 December 2009, Mrs Justice Cox said
67. The posting by Ms. Malone, which the union accepts gave members legally incorrect advice directly on the point, could have been removed from the website, but it was not.
UNITE have found a crude way of preventing a reoccurrence of this error

[nononsense frank]

Miss M
I am struggling to understand your attitude in this whole saga as you seem to contradict yourself a lot as evidenced by the following statements posted by yourself on this thread and on the other pprune threads.
Quote from Chuchinchow to Miss M:
If I was in your situation I would ask the leadership of that union why, after more than a year and a half of dealing with my employer, it had not managed to reach any sort of equable solution to its original grievance.
Answer from Miss M: Blame it on the union (sarcastic). Surely our management could never be responsible for not reaching an agreement with us.
However, on 18th June 2010 you posted this response in another thread:
.Eddy, if you are referring to the deal last year, yes. I wish we could turn back time. I would have happily accepted it as it meant that future crew would work on existing WW and EF fleets. It would have included the guarantee which I need over my job.</B>So you know fully well that BA has tried to put in a reasonable proposal at least once by your standard, but your union chose to say no without consulting members, so don't say that BA is responsible for not reaching an agreement with you. You also recently said on 7th Oct. 2010:
.ChicoG, I will never feel embarrased over my actions or claim that they were pointless. I still believe going on strike was the right decision and I won't hestitate a second to go on another strike should we vote for it...
Snas, I'm finding it very difficult to be saying that BA employees who either crossed the picket line or trained to break our strike are my colleagues. I find their behaviour to be despicable...</B>and on 9th October you said:
.The Flying Nunn, Do you really have to ask this question again? I was asked it only a couple of days ago. Why did I go on strike? Because of imposition! Not due to the practical fact that crewing levels were changed but because they were changed without any negotiation.
But again, in earlier threads you admitted this:.Eddy, The strikes were not needed. They were never needed. They never should have taken place
Why then do you find it so difficult to understand that other crew chose not to strike with you when you yourself realised long ago that the strikes were not needed, never been needed and should never have taken place? Why do you despise them so much for arriving at the same conclusion as you had? Was it because you chose the wrong decision, i.e. back your union thinking that it will win the argument anyway by striking and when it didn't produce the result you were expecting, you begrudge those who didn't support the strike for getting it right? Do you really hate your non-striking colleagues so much for not being in the same hopeless situation as you are?
You keep saying that those who signed the last BA offer sold themselves down the river. You seem to forget that those lucky enough to sign the last BA offer are on a win-win situation as not only did they made sure that their contract will no longer deteriorate (at least for the time stated in the contract) but also, in the unlikely event that Bassa secure a better contract than the recent BA offer, they (the 1000 who signed) will also be entitled to the same better contract. So indeed, there is no reason imho, why non-strikers should now join you in your hopeless and ill-thought-of fight, although I can understand why you would want some company.
And now, I would like to echo the following question directed to you ages ago by Bridchen on the other thread, in reaction to your admission that the strike was never necessary.
Quote from Bridchen on 18 June 2010: .MissM, I'm almost lost for words. The same proposal that BASSA, according to your logic, rejected as they found it lacking, is now on reflection, a proposal you would wish to accept, if your ST was reinstated with DOJ. Your ST would have been intact with DOJ at the time of the proposal, before you went on strike, so then why aren't you asking what the union found so lacking about it? And to outright turn it down, instead of ironing out the details.
Yes, indeed, the strikes never needed to take place, therefore, why are you so willing to ride the open-top bus?
I, however would like to rephrase the last sentence: Yes, indeed, the strikes never needed to take place therefore why are you so willing to do it again and entice your colleagues to join you in your doomed plight?

[pcat160]

I can not imagine BA negotiating for the removal of Mixed Fleet. MF is the “Crown Jewel” and the future for BA. By including “performance bonuses” in the MF package of benefits pay scale can always be tweaked in a way that rewards the best. Recruiting could be enhanced with first year bonus guarantees if it was appropriate or needed. Senior BASSA leadership do not care about MF as it does not affect them. Long term cost savings with MF are very, very significant not to mention the issues of management. I think ST is the issue which could be negotiated by BA. TW is quoted as saying (I have no knowledge of the authenticity of the quote) it was now about an exit strategy and getting members their travel privileges back. The question is what will BA receive in exchange for the reinstatement of ST to strikers? WW must maintain credibility with the other 30,000 BA employees.

Maybe there is no progress at all and Unite merely told BASSA there would be no ballot.

[Litebulbs]

Absolutely pathetic, stupid and very misguided fools ............

Is there any need for that? Bassa is not a person, so a sweeping generalisation will no doubt be insulting to quite a few people.

[Chuchinchow]

MissM, pontificating on the "other channel", advises us: I have worked with VCC during non-striking times and some of them have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

Is that so, MissM?

Clearly you have worked for British Airways for so many years now that you have conveniently forgotten what it was like to be a novice stewardess.

C'mon [name deleted], you can do better than that!

[call100]

Call100 Job title ? totally irrelevant, its job dimensions that are important. Salary ? again not useful, there are some skills that have a higher value to organisations than others. In aviation, flight crew earn commensurately more than most managers with equivalent line responsibilities. Equally, you'll find that general admin workers tend to earn less than IT programmers. If you look at most organisations the highly paid folk tend to be the sales force, who get commission. I fai to see how publishing such information would even up the playing field.
Thanks for the lesson.:rolleyes: You missed the point. The personal attacks were/are getting out of hand. Mostly from people giving off a holier than thou attitude.
You failing to see why it would even up the playing field bothers me not....I would not expect anything else.

If I was a cynic I would think that BA had yet another invented persona on the forum of late, to make attacks. However, I am trying not to be cynical these days so maybe I won't think it...:hmm:

[Diplome]

Call100:

If you have been reading any of the public forums you would realize that BA hardly need to "invent" a persona...the vast majority of individuals simply do not support BASSA's conduct or their position....whatever that may be from day to day.

The fact that BASSA is unaware of the status of present negotiations says much.

[MissM]

nononsense frank

A strike should always be taken as a last resort. Many of us felt that we were not getting anywhere with our management. Proposal after proposal was put forward to our management who declined every single one of them. Management in return presented proposals which included sanctions not considered to be fair. I don't believe that I took the wrong decision for going on strike. I chose to back my union who is responsible for our terms and conditions. If everyone who voted for industrial action had supported their vote as well VCC not interfearing in our dispute we never would have been here today. They are responsible for us being here today with a dispute still to be solved. Not us.

Personally I don't think that those who signed the individual offer this summer should be entitled to take advantage of our future proposal. They are clearly not willing to fight for our terms and conditions but instead relying on some of us fighting on their behalf.

[dilldog01]

meanwhile back in the real world..............

[Litebulbs]

What will be interesting, is if the sacked workers reinstatement is part of the process being discussed. I doubt very much if BA will accept any re-engagement as a settlement, but do you think that BA should enter into an arbitration agreement and look at each case individually?

[Diplome]

MissM:

BASSA's actions ARE the business of each and every BA employee. No division operates in a vacuum.

As for being upset regarding non-striking crew gaining the benefit of BASSA's actions....I would have to say that most are waiting for BASSA to actually gain anything in this dispute. So far its been a series of own goals.

Litebulbs:

I don't believe BA should, but it wouldn't shock me to see some sort of movement for purposes of settlement.

[JUAN TRIPP]

MissM wrote

Personally I don't think that those who signed the individual offer this summer should be entitled to take advantage of our future proposal. They are clearly not willing to fight for our terms and conditions but instead relying on some of us fighting on their behalf.

Firstly Miss M I will be gobsmacked if Bassa get a better deal than was offered in June. It just wont happen. Also Its NOT upto YOU to say who is entitled to what. I mean if you honestly think any of the Bassa hierachy listen or better still actually act on what their members want then you must have been reading something differant to me in the last 18 months.

Finally I and many others would have HAPPILY fought to save our T/C's IF only Bassa had put realistic proposals to BA. How many times have it been said on here that Bassa's savings didn't add up. They were independently audited by PWC, but of course the Bassa reps didnt believe them!! I am frankly sick and tired of being told its OUR fault. Remember Bassa is NOT a closed shop anymore and its members pay £17/month for the 'priviledge' of being in Bassa. The members are supposed to be Bassa , but as MOST of us know Bassa is in reality DH and the rest of the top brass. Try saying ANYTHING to them that doesn't get their approval and the result is simply abuse

Litebulbs wrote


What will be interesting, is if the sacked workers reinstatement is part of the process being discussed. I doubt very much if BA will accept any re-engagement as a settlement, but do you think that BA should enter into an arbitration agreement and look at each case individually?



Quite simply why should they. I see another longhaul CSD got the sack this week. When I heard their name I wasn't surprised one iota. Another 'troublemaker'

[Litebulbs]

The members are supposed to be Bassa , but as MOST of us know Bassa is in reality DH and the rest of the top brass. Try saying ANYTHING to them that doesn't get their approval and the result is simply abuse

Now it will be interesting to see how Unite and BA see the recognition agreement. It is my understanding that it is agreement with the union in question, with the employer, not the branch or membership. I would imagine that some pressure would be put onto the Bassa branch to accept, or face notice on the current agreement, by Unite. But that will be a gamble, if you believe the PCCC releases, on its growing membership.

[Litebulbs]

Quite simply why should they. I see another longhaul CSD got the sack this week. When I heard their name I wasn't surprised one iota. Another 'troublemaker'

Why wouldn't they? If the case was justified, then the dismissal would stand.

[Mariner9]

Management in return presented proposals which included sanctions not considered to be fair

What unfair sanctions were there in BA's original offer to remove 1 crew member and offer VR - rejected out of hand by BASSA following their "no negotiation" vote?

[Chuchinchow]

Personally I don't think that those who signed the individual offer this summer should be entitled to take advantage of our future proposal.

Which "future proposal" will that be, MissM?

Who is going to put forward this "future proposal", MissM?

Will it be Liz Malone, the world famous authority on labour law, whose "advice" cost her BASSA followers dear?

Or will it be Duncan Holley, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, copywriter and agronome?

More to the point, of what might this "future proposal" consist,MissM?

[Chuchinchow]

Proposal after proposal was put forward to our management who declined every single one of them.

Precis five of those proposals please, MissM.

No, that's too difficult a demand to make of a BASSA member; name three.

[notlangley]

On 11 October 2010 MissM said
Proposal after proposal was put forward to our management who declined every single one of them.
On 19 February 2010, Sir Christopher Holland (Sitting as a Judge of the High Court) said

25th June – Unite put forward a written Pay and Productivity Proposal, claiming that it would save BA £173m. It proposed some alterations in the cabin crew complements but no significant reduction. Thereafter BA tried to understand and analyse the cost saving as anticipated by Unite, bringing in accountants, Price Waterhouse Cooper. The latter’s assessment was that the saving would be about £53m. Unite refused to have further discussions over this issue, whether with BA or the accountants.

__________________reference (http://www.employmentcasesupdate.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed4655)

[MissM]

Juan Tripp

Should we be offered a proposal which is better than what was offered to non-union members this summer I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's not up to me of course but that's my opinion and I can assure you that many happen to agree with me.

Diplome

I happen to disagree with you. Our issues within IFCE are no business of our pilots and ground staff.

[Colonel White]

Should we be offered a proposal which is better than what was offered to non-union members this summer I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's not up to me of course but that's my opinion and I can assure you that many happen to agree with me.

An interesting proposition. So presumably Miss M you would wish to dismantle the NSP agreements as well as they cover union and non-union members alike. Beware, this could lead to a very dangerous situation for cabin crew. It sounds like you wish to abandon the notion of collective bargaining altogether. This enables BA management to play one group of cabin crew off against another. You would have no visibility of what pay offers BA management might make to the non-union workforce. By fragmenting the pay bargaining in this way you are undoing over 40 years of hard one union effort. BA management would love to have what you propose. Talk about divide and rule. And I thought you BASSA folk were supposed to be pretty clued up on negotiating with management.:)

[Juan Tugoh]

I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it.

I guess the problem for this view is that by being part of a union you accept collective bargaining - so does the company. The breakdown of this collective bargaining is the reason that the company has offered deals to the non-unionised portion of the cabin crew.

Complexity of agreements and contracts builds in an admin burden and associated costs. Unless there is a good reason to operate in a different fashion the company will attempt to reduce any unnecessary cost.

Bottom line, if a better deal is struck with UNITE than has been signed with the non-unionised crew (as unlikely as that is) then expect all crew to be put on the same deal. If UNITE cannot get an agreement as good as the one agreed with the non-unionised crew do not expect them to be forced onto a worse deal.

Perhaps more effort should be put into securing a deal than trying to find ways of punishing those who have a different view on the current IA. Concentrating on feuding is a tradition in the CC unions (BASSA and CC89 reps fighting in the car park), maybe it is time to step away from these outmoded and self-harming practices.

[west lakes]

Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action

So as earlier posters have suggested in the other thread, if it is true that CC89 actually negotiated a lot of improvements in T & Cs. Should BASSA members be entitled to them?

[Litebulbs]

Two good posts, but we are probably looking at them from different directions. You can't switch collective bargaining on and off; some will benefit for free, but most will pay in more than one way. I think its worth the cost, however.

The thing you really have to look at is the ERA1996 and and TULcRA 1992, have been around an awfully long time. We have now had all sides of politics in the UK in power, with no substantial change back in favour of employees/unions. What does that say? There is probably a small percentage of businesses that will buckle to strike action. The small employers would probably go bust and companies the size of BA, will plead poverty, but will rustle up huge pots of cash to fight off action, as has been proved.

A new approach is needed, but god knows what it is.

[west lakes]

Litebulbs

It's not a new approach, but it needs both sides in any dispute to be prepared to sit down, talk, see the other side's viewpoints but above all come to a structured agreement without recourse to either side taking precipitive action.

As has been stated in the various thread IA should be seen as the last resort and strike action only when all other avenues have been exhausted.

[call100]

Call100:

If you have been reading any of the public forums you would realize that BA hardly need to "invent" a persona...the vast majority of individuals simply do not support BASSA's conduct or their position....whatever that may be from day to day.

The fact that BASSA is unaware of the status of present negotiations says much.
I agree, They don't have to invent one...That doesn't mean they haven't or wouldn't...
Thanks for the lecture. I have been reading public forums and I am quite aware of some public feeling....Although I would suggest that the vast majority of the 'Public' couldn't give a tinkers cuss about any of it. Unlike those of us on here they have lives to live....:)
I do not support BASSA's conduct throughout this dispute any more than I support BA's. My hope for all is that an amicable solution be found and those affected can get some peace in the workplace until the next disagreement...
I agree with Litebulbs that new approaches to IR need to be looked at....Kick out all the old TU dinosaurs and the ancient HR/IR advisor's to companies (they are as bad as each other) and find a new way of making improvements in the workplace...
I doubt it will happen, but, hey! We can hope...:)

[Litebulbs]

I agree, but do you think business would enter into that sort of agreement process, when the balance of law is in its favour?

[west lakes]

I think yes they would.
It appears in this case that negotiation has led to acceptable agreement in other parts of BA. This, to me, suggests the company is open to sensible negotiation even with branches of Unite.
So where did it go wrong in this case??

[Chuchinchow]

Should we be offered a proposal which is better than what was offered to non-union members this summer I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's not up to me of course but that's my opinion and I can assure you that many happen to agree with me

Judging by MissM's latest oeuvre it is clearly time for BASSA to put up a new duty spokesman.

Or is MissM's suggestion BASSA's fiendishly clever new master plan: to allow its major foe (BA) to divide, conquer and then to rule its cabin crew as the BA leadership team wishes?

Lu:mad:cy.:, unadulterated lu:mad:cy!

Could be (no, perish the thought!) that MissM and her BASSA comrades have been out-manoeuvred?

[Litebulbs]

Well, it would be interesting to see if BA would stick to the market rate +10% mantra for my old grade. It would be a sensible negotiation and easily bench markable. But BA did the job on that department years ago. The structure is now in place would make effective strike action almost impossible. Binding arbitration; I doubt it.

[Litebulbs]

Lu:mad:cy.:, unadulterated lu:mad:cy!

Could be (no, perish the thought!) that MissM and her BASSA comrades have been out-manoeuvred?

What is the point of the post? Do you want to see an end to the dispute, or are you just enjoying the battle?

[Chuchinchow]

Do you want to see an end to the dispute, or are you just enjoying the battle?

Both. The sheer farce and black comedy that are BASSA's "negotiating abilities" are the greatest free show on earth.

Lizanne Malone, Duncan Holley and the rest of the BASSA reps have been exposed for what they are: bumbling, inept and self-serving manipulators of the dues-paying membership. That is why BA was able to take advantage and to sign up non unionised cabin crew staff to the fairly lucrative settlement they now enjoy.

Those far-sighted men and women still enjoy staff travel and have retained seniority when flying as passengers. Can anyone say the same about the BASSA stalwarts, who are still baying for Willy Walsh's scalp to be nailed to the doors of Cranebank? What is BASSA doing to alleviate the problems of that woman who purports to commute from Johannesburg?

BASSA has painted itself into a corner from which it now has no escape. It is neutered, emasculated. Difficult for MIssM to comprehend, but those are the facts.

Which reminds me: why have we not been regaled by a florid and over-weaning account of BASSA's barristers' triumphs in Court 74 today? DH certainly found time to do that back in the winter.

And incidentally, Litebulbs, my questionCould be (no, perish the thought!) that MissM and her BASSA comrades have been out-manoeuvred? is quite a valid one - even if it is too unpleasant for trade unionists to contemplate

[Litebulbs]

Fair enough. I just look back to Project Columbus and getting a particular group back to hands on, there were two parties to blame. There appeared to be a healthy list of volunteers for VR (a) and if the new deal is as lucrative (b) as you say, then a+b should have equaled happiness.

[Litebulbs]

And incidentally, Litebulbs, my question is quite a valid one - even if it is too unpleasant for trade unionists to contemplate

I am an employee first, if that comment was directed at me. Unions hardly ever win, it is just a watering down exercise.

[Chuchinchow]

Quite possibly,Litebulbs,

However, as the title of this section of PPRuNe implies Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) If you are regularly a passenger on any airline then why not post your questions here? I am just that: a passenger.

As such, I have no concrete information available to me on "Columbus" in the context you mention.

Nevertheless, the sooner this tragic, pus-laden abscess of a labour dispute is lanced and drained the better it will be for everyone: passengers, management, cabin crew - even (and especially) MissM, who has loyally toed the BASSA line throughout.

The only ones who will derive no benefit from the dispute will be LM and DH.

[Chuchinchow]

Well, as a passenger, why is the dispute so important to you?

Litebulbs, please re-read the penultimate paragraph of my last message.

[Diplome]

Litebulbs:

"...Unions hardly ever win."

I would have to respectfully disagree with this comment. My personal opinion is that progressive and reasonable unions win victories every day. Victories that not only provide benefits to their members but also prove their value to their employers.

This dispute is an oddity in part due to the extreme actions and statements of BASSA leadership...and MissM is, in my opinion, an almost perfect representation of why BASSA's losses have been so significant.

I understand the motivation behind many comments of "Its nice to hear the other side"...and "thank you for coming on offering your opinion and I must respect that"...personally I feel if the other side is deluded its okay to state the obvious and I don't have to respect sheer denial of fact or history. Sometimes the Emperor has no clothes and in this case BASSA is stark naked.

[pcat160]

BASSA/Unite apparently called off an emanate ballot for Industrial Action Sunday 10/10/10. Does anybody know what the basis of this IA was to be? Have the BASSA leadership shared with the masses what injustice they will strike for? Will it be the requirement to lower window blinds without consultation with BASSA regarding the health and safety issues associated with this duty?
My opinion is there was not to be and will not be any ballot for IA. BASSA leadership are grasping at straws. How does Tony Woodley expect to negotiate with BA when this group of clowns exercising a veto over whatever he achieves? This will not end until Unite cut BASSA loose, an unlikely event given the amount of dues involved, or a sufficient number of Cabin Crew tire of paying BASSA dues.

[LD12986]

pcat160 - I think the disciplinary cases were to be the subject of the new ballot.

[dilldog01]

presumably then Miss M would be voting no in a new ballot as she has repeatedly stated the issue is imposition ?

[Litebulbs]

Litebulbs:

"...Unions hardly ever win."

I would have to respectfully disagree with this comment. My personal opinion is that progressive and reasonable unions win victories every day. Victories that not only provide benefits to their members but also prove their value to their employers.

Ok, fair point and a poor choice of words on my behalf.

[nononsense frank]

Thank you MissM for your response but I still think you are deliberately being obstinate about the whole thing, although you know deep inside that you are backing a lost cause.

I also think that you are directing too much hatred towards your non-striker colleagues and vcc's regardless of their reasons for not joining the strike, i.e. they are not Bassa members, or if they are, they realised early on that the strike was not necessary. I understand that you are not happy with the way some of your colleagues voted "yes" in the previous IA ballot but when it came to the actual strike, they buckled. However, (correct me if I am wrong) didn't Bassa at the time advised everyone to just vote yes to "send a strong message to management (WW)" and that they (Bassa) didn't think it will come to an actual strike?

You seem to be an intelligent person judging from your posts so I do not believe that you do not understand the real reason why there are so many of your colleagues who disagree with you and Bassa. Don't you think enough is enough, and that there's no use throwing good money after bad?

It is now time to cut losses and be grateful that at least you are still able to do the job you like and that's more important. Let go of the hatred MissM and you will find that everything will fall into its proper place.

Lastly, I wish the whole CC community peace and contemplate on the SERENITY PRAYER to guide you.

SERENITY PRAYER
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I could not change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference...

[Mariner9]

Posted on the other thread...
If it was you, what would you be looking for? If it was me (moderate), I would be looking at an ACAS binding arbitration solution for the dismissed employees and a full reinstatement of staff travel (over time maybe?) and concede that if any further action was to take place over this issue, then a signed agreement that staff travel will be removed permanently. I doubt if Mr. Walsh will go that far however, but we shall see.

Most on here will not agree with that, because the common thread bias is about punishment and destruction of the BASSA branch.

So you would advocate an agreement that "punishes" future strikers then?

[Litebulbs]

I am suggesting a full return of staff travel, but obviously BA will not want to give it. It would be a compromise agreement, where both parties look at the potential cost of legal action on the issue, along with a resolution to the dispute.

[Juan Tugoh]

It would be a compromise agreement

This, I think, is spot on the money. It will be a compromise - what yet remains to be seen is what UNITE/BASSA are willing to give up in order to "buy" full return of ST.

There has been an impasse for many months with both sides having an entrenched position. Both sides will have to give up something in order to gain a solution. It is clear what UNITE/BASSA want BA to give up - full ST, what remains shrouded in mystery is what more BA wants from the union and what the union is prepared to give way on.

The details of any proposed settlement will be fascinating. I suspect that there will not be a full return of ST - at least not at first, a phased return wrapped in guarantees may happen, but, I suspect, BA will be very wary of giving away anything that could be spun as a big victory for BASSA.

The ST issue is too big an issue, too much a cause celebre to be given away lightly. BASSA will have to buy full ST back at great cost if they want full return and I suspect the cost would be too great foe BASSA to stomach - UNITE may feel differently. As I said the deal will be fascinating.

[Mariner9]

Compromise or not, you are advocating a "permanent loss of ST agreement" that you have repeatedly said in the past is punishment of lawful strikers.

Do you think it is OK to punish future strikers but not the current crop? And do you think BASSA will heed a written agreement over loss of ST having ignored written warnings from BA over this issue in the current dispute?

[Litebulbs]

I still stand by my previous comments, as I am not in the negotiations. As I have also said that there is no clear legal precedent on the issue. Maybe Unite legal have had some advice. I have said nothing about future strikes, as if the deal was agreed, the issue would go.

[Snas]

This whole ST issue is indeed a complex one. On the one had I really don’t like the principle of strikers being punished, any, in any company, it potentially sets a rather nasty president. On the other however this particular group of individuals (BASSA) have done exactly nothing to help themselves or more importantly the members they were elected to represent and I can’t manage to generate any sympathy for them at all.

It was all downhill from the decision not to negotiate and then the 12 days announcement located the final nail. Somewhat foolish tactics at the very least.

I certainly know some members of cabin crew that are VERY opposed to the idea of ST being reinstated in any way. It’s going to be a great struggle on all sides to resolve a gulf of that scale.

Whatever happens one group or another are not going to be happy. Will BA chose to make the strikers or the non-strikers happy I wonder?

I suspect BA will try to disregard such considerations and will opt for the path that’s commercially the most sensible, whatever that may be – which could of course be argued is also be best for its employees and their long term employment and remuneration.

I know I’ve failed to sell ST return to the CC I know in any shape, I trust (and suspect) that Mr Walsh has a better argument at the ready if it does get returned.

[Lotpax]

This whole ST issue is indeed a complex one. On the one had I really don’t like the principle of strikers being punished, any, in any company, it potentially sets a rather nasty president. On the other however this particular group of individuals (BASSA) have done exactly nothing to help themselves or more importantly the members they were elected to represent and I can’t manage to generate any sympathy for them at all.

That is a very succint and excellent summary, Snas :ok:

[Mariner9]

...and concede that if any further action was to take place over this issue, then a signed agreement that staff travel will be removed permanently

I have said nothing about future strikes, as if the deal was agreed, the issue would go.

In which case I'm afraid I don't follow your argument at all Litebulbs. What exactly will BASSA be "conceding" in your suggested compromise? It would appear from your later post to be the loss of ST only in circumstances that will not arise.

Just to clarify, I'm not arguing with your view that concessions are likely required from both sides to end this dispute - I'm just interested in what a union supporter feels would be acceptable to offer in the way of compromise in order to get ST returned.

[The SSK]

Don't overlook that removing ST from 4500 (or however many) strikers also benefitted everyone else who is eligible for BA ST (me included) by moving them up the standby pecking order.

[Litebulbs]

In which case I'm afraid I don't follow your argument at all Litebulbs. What exactly will BASSA be "conceding" in your suggested compromise? It would appear from your later post to be the loss of ST only in circumstances that will not arise.

They could be conceding a staged return. Its a negotiation. Who knows what BA, Unite and ACAS will come up with. Unite might set up a new branch containing those that accept the new contract. It might have an accelerated seniority from 0 years, who knows?

The goal will be having everyone on a new contract as soon as possible. There has been no legal challenge as yet to the removal of the benefit, so it could still be seen as a future punishment (of which I do not agree).

[TopBunk]

From Uniteba website, I quote (can't copy text as it is part of an image):

talking about the reported significant developments alluded to last week by Tony Woodley ....

"....None of your negotiating committee was either aware or present. We still do not know the contents of these talks or what 'significant progress' means.

We shall be meeting with Tony shortly to discuss the details. IF and ONLY IF your negotiating committee assess this 'progress' as 'significant' enough to meet your needs and requirements, the document will be put to a consultative ballot of you, the members.

If we DO NOT these talks to have produced a suitable deal, we shall be asking Unite to issue a strike ballot in line with your recent mandate"

This to me typifies the control and manipulation demonstrated throughout this dispute by the BASSA top table. They continually refuse to let their electorate decide, but insist on deciding for themselves what is good for them.

Now, just let's think ...... that's right, the negotiating committee that comprises of what, 3 sacked reps and several more suspended; all of which would be unable to put themselves up for re-election if there was a deal.

Hmmm, let's think, now what is in it for them if they agree to Tony Woodleys' latest deliberations?

1. They won't get their jobs back
2. They will lose their control of BASSA (and their attempts at controlling BA) as fresh elections are already about a year overdue in BASSA
3. They lose their significant skimming off of the branch union dues each month

Just a thought.:(

[Snas]

If we DO NOT these talks to have produced a suitable deal, we shall be asking Unite to issue a strike ballot in line with your recent mandate"




Thats the killer line, as if Unite say no thats it all finished right there... No where else to run for BASSA.

[pcat160]

BASSA leadership has now publicly undercut any ability or chance of TW negotiating a settlement. Further talks are fruitless as BASSA leadership will approve the settlement not BASSA membership and we know what the leadership have said they will insist on. BASSA leadership has a problem though. Unite must call for the vote and Unite do not want a strike vote. BASSA leadership again overplays their hand. I would assume TW will soon be depicted with horns or a mustache.

[just an observer]

I would assume Tony Woodley will insist that whatever offer he and Willie Walsh put together is offered to CC directly, or Unite will not allow any further strike ballot.

Not that this is likely to be made public by either Unite or BASSA.

[LD12986]

According to the update on uniteba.com BA is refusing to deroster Lizanne Malone for the meeting:

. XX (http://www.uniteba.com)

[Litebulbs]

According to the update on uniteba.com BA is refusing to deroster Lizanne Malone for the meeting:

. XX (http://www.uniteba.com)

Now if that is true, is that a reasonable response from BA?

[cdtaylor_nats]

As they don't appear to have a date set to meet Tony Woodley why don't they just arrange the meeting for a day when Miss Malone isn't rostered?

[Chuchinchow]

"The time has come", the walrus said, "To talk of many things; of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and kings", Lewis Carroll may have told us, but I am concerned about more urgent matters.

Try as I may, I have not been able to find a single syllable in the news media about "the" court case being heard in Court 74 at the Royal Courts of Justice.

Can anyone offer an (authoritative) update, please?

[TSR2]

Now if that is true, is that a reasonable response from BA?

Looking at it another way, is it unreasonable for an employer to expect an employee to carry out the duties which they are paid to perform?

[FORDGT40]

Litebulbs Now if that is true, is that a reasonable response from BA?

Could be that Tony Woodley asked BA not to deroster Lizanne. After all, Tony has held talks direct with BA without Bassa involvement. Additionaly, I suspect that Woodley would wish to privately acquaint Bassa with the proposed settlement, together with a frank message from Unite.

None of this can happen at a joint meeting in front of BA:)

[Diplome]

I didn't even realize that Ms. Malone was flying again.

[Snas]

I didn't even realize that Ms. Malone was flying again.


I was going to make the same comment but thought that it might be a bit churlish. As you have dipped your toe in the water however I'll admit to being surprised to hear that she was also.

[Betty girl]

I thought she went fit the day before the strike so that she could strike. I seem to remember DH mentioning it in one of his rambles.

[notlangley]

Nothing is scheduled for Court 74 today._ I presume therefore that the hearing is over and we await an unknown time until the Court of Appeal issues its decision.
___________Reference______________ Court Hearings (http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/list_coacivil.htm)

[notlangley]

Sorry - it was Thursday when I checked.

[Snas]

I thought she went fit the day before the strike so that she could strike. I seem to remember DH mentioning it in one of his rambles.


Hmm, odd one that.

Firstly well done her for doing so, lead from the front and all that. First thing I have heard about her that I like.

On the other hand, post strike, you are either able to work or you are not, so why is she not on the sick again? Got better I guess!

[Entaxei]

For somebody who is flying again, it brings to mind that old Halloween suggestion .........

'Why don't you grab your broomstick and go tour the world'

:E

[wascrew]

When decided it should appear here i think

BAILII - Recent Decisions (All cases) (http://www.bailii.org/recent-decisions.html#ew/cases/EWCA/Civ)


Ref mrs malone

Did she strike?
If so did she loose her staff travel?
If she lost her staff travel how does she commute from lax?
If she didn`t loose her staff travel I wonder which cabin she gets accomodated in?
If she did loose her staff travel and has to buy full fare tickets same question as above.

[notlangley]

Thanks wascrew - that is a most useful link.

[notlangley]

Long sentences on Four X Website today
Updated Statement - 14th October 2010.

It had been Unite General Secretary, Tony Woodley’s intentions to brief your cabin crew representatives from BASSA and Amicus section tomorrow, Friday 15th October.

Talks continued today with CEO, Willie Walsh and People Director, Tony McCarthy, which involved ACAS and Brendan Barber from the TUC.

These talks will now continue over into tomorrow, as yet we have no details as to their content.

It had been our intention to reopen the website tomorrow, with the full details of these discussions and thus allow people to be able to read them and debate them, with all the information being made available to you.

This cannot now happen as we still have not been given any details, so we have no option but to reopen the website around 2pm tomorrow, without this information.

As soon as these talks conclude and we are briefed by Tony Woodley, we will make the information available to you; but at the moment you know us much as us - nothing.

Thank you for your patience, we can only apologise for the sense of frustration that you must feel.

Let’s ALL keep the faith and an open mind until we are all able to study any offer in detail and then make our minds up at that time._ Please remember this when using the forum which will be closely watched by BA.

[notlangley]

I see that crewforum (http://www.crewforum.co.uk/forum/default.asp) is repaired._ The redirection last week of their URL produced a result that was a look-alike of the BASSA page (I mean a solitary big X)._ However the URL redirection was consistent with an outside attack.
What happened?_ Does anyone have an explanation?_ Was it because of envy/spitefulness or misplaced loyalty?

[LD12986]

It may just have been due to the planned countdown to the planned ballot announcement last Sunday and something went awry. Or that all cabin crew fora were taken down in order to avoid any posters prejudicing the Court of Appeal hearing this week.

I do find the fact that BASSA and CC89 have been left completely in the dark on the talks between BA and Unite very odd. Something is definitely up!

[Jipperty]

I haven't been here in a while and not up to speed with current status on the CC IA, from the lack of press coverage it would appear to be over.

Have just booked for US next week and Singapore in December and wondered what to expect on board? - happy motivated indivduals or the cream of BASSA who I expect will be anything but.

[Neptunus Rex]

the cream of BASSAWhat a wonderfully ambivalent phrase!

[617sqn]

Jipperty
Please read back over the past posts.
I stated that I had flown with very militant crew but they are excellent at their job.This was later backed up by other people.
On the whole BA CC are very professional and do not take their grievance out on the pax.

[Litebulbs]

Any legally mined posters have any idea on how Unite are challenging the February ruling? I am guessing that they are exploring custom and practice as an implied term of their contracts.

Any other guesses?

[notlangley]

November should be interesting._ There will be the start of the smooth transition from Union joint Secretaries to a single Secretary.

Voting for Unite General Secretary ends 19 November.
This could be before or it could be after Judgement is given in the Court of Appeal.
Declaration of the result of the ballot for the General Secretary of Unite will be made on 24 November.
Derek Simpson retires on 23 December.
Tony Woodley retires "a year later".

[moleytt]

Have just booked for US next week and Singapore in December and wondered what to expect on board? - happy motivated indivduals or the cream of BASSA who I expect will be anything but.
My wife and I flew to Boston a couple of weeks ago. On the flight out, the CC were good, especially the women CC - they had to sort out an overbooking situation and did it very professionally. The male CC were all a bit dour, but all in all not bad.

The flight back was okay until the dishing out of the breakfast - by a very unhappy looking male CC - glasses on the end of his nose looking down at you - he even dropped the breakfast muffin in my lap becasue he couldn't be bothered to look properly. Apart from that, not too bad.

Enjoy your trips

moleytt

[Lou Scannon]

Wascrew asked a very simple question:

"Ref mrs malone

Did she strike?
If so did she loose her staff travel?
If she lost her staff travel how does she commute from lax?
If she didn`t loose her staff travel I wonder which cabin she gets accommodated in?
If she did loose her staff travel and has to buy full fare tickets same question as above."

As there has been no answer, can we assume that she did not strike and unlike many of the "rabbits" has lost nothing?

Did she lead from the front or push from the back?

Surely someone must know and be prepared to admit the truth.

[TopBunk]

I wouldn't be surprised if BASSA subs were being used to pay for the commuting costs of reps.

It would not surprise me if she was attempted to be transferred into a comfier seat for her commute by onside cabin crew.

It would surprise me if that happened with the captains' agreement, and I would have thought that most captains would be scanning the Pax List for her name, and ensuring that she travelled in the correct class (unless already upgraded by groundstaff, of course, which is a disctinct possibility).

As to a full flight and junpseats ..........

[617sqn]

Moleytt
Just out of interest were your cc "real"?
Only asking as the volunteers are back on board in force to keep their aircraft recency.Most flights have about 3 on at the moment.

[fincastle84]

617 Sqn writes:

On the whole BA CC are very professional and do not take their grievance out on the pax.

I toally agree. We've just flown LHR-NBO-LHR in J & the service both ways was excellent. We had a 2 hour delay on board at LHR due to an anti icing system being u/s. We were kept fully informed by the skipper as to the progress of the servicing & the on board situation was handled brilliantly by the cabin crew.

On the flight home, with it's 23.30 departure, the dinner service was both friendly, efficient & incredibly speedy, let brilliantly by the CSD, Sharon.

As a side note, it would appear that the security staff at LHR have been on a customer awareness course. They were all polite, smiling & extremely helpful! Well done.

[notlangley]

There is this (http://uniteba.com/Update111010HighCourt.html)

[Litebulbs]

notlangley

Thanks for the link. How wrong was I! So it is going to be based on "apt for incorporation"

Do you think the tone of the other side of the United union is different?

[pcat160]

Posters on the CC thread seem to be agitated recently. I think there is a good deal of anxiety over what may have been agreed to by TW and WW. Some will be pleased, some will not be pleased and some will not care. What will be interesting is what will happen next.

[notlangley]

The author of the Union update appears to be of the opinion that the financial downturn was temporary

still less where the reason is purely a temporary financial downturn and the changes would be permanent.
____Reference:-__link (http://uniteba.com/Update111010HighCourt.html)

[Litebulbs]

One potential downside to a successful appeal, is that the financial award could be severe enough allow some other substantial reason for a fair termination of existing contracts; defeat from the jaws of victory.

[west lakes]

There is some discussion about the BASSA chair not being derostered.
Here is a copy of the agreement we operate where I work, one of the unions involved being Unite.
I would guess this is a pretty standard agreement to comply with legislation.


2 Governing Principles

2.1 The Company and the trade unions jointly recognise the importance and value of ensuring that staff have access to properly trained and accredited lay representatives. It is also recognised that the spheres of operation of lay trade union representatives should reflect the Company’s organisation within the context of Annex 2 to this Appendix.

2.2 It is jointly accepted that a balance must be struck between the following requirements: (a) ******* operational, safety and business requirements and obligations to provide service to the customer;
(b) the need to keep to a minimum both additional cost and interference with ****** business;
(c) the mutual benefit to ******* and the trade unions of reasonable opportunities being afforded to lay trade union representatives to carry out relevant trade unions duties and to trade union members to take part in relevant trade union activities.

2.3 Accordingly, unreasonable requests should not be made and no facility covered by this Agreement should be unreasonably withheld.
　
2.4 Any specific request for such facilities should be made as far in advance as possible and should be for the appropriate time and/or resources necessary to meet the purpose of the request.
No facilities will be granted in respect of any activity, which are proposed in contemplation or furtherance of a trade dispute.

2.5 The Company recognises that the role of the representative within the Company and his/her trade union will have a bearing on the amount of time off requested. For example, representatives involved in Company-wide bodies may require additional time off compared with representatives who have a purely local role. However, it is not the intention of any of the recognised trade unions that an individual representative’s trade union duties should have any significant impact on his/her work for the Company or on the work of his/her colleagues.


The bolding and italics are mine!

[Snas]

Re above... It would be odd for any organisation or body to be willing or indeed bound to deliver troops to the opposing force..!

[Litebulbs]

Well you can't argue with that......

OK, maybe a little is "Contemplation and furtherance " the same as scrutiny of a potential proposal to end a dispute? I think BA are protected and therefore I owe an apology.

[Juan Tugoh]

The result is not really very important - as you say the real issue here is if there is an adverse outcome for BA and the court awards compensation at the working down level the savings that BA have achieved over the last year would have been wiped out. A rough estimate would be 3x11500x12x the working down payment. I do not know the level of the working down payment but if it is £100 that is £41.4M per year.

This cost will have to be recouped from somewhere in the IFCE budget and the simplest way to do this is the 90 day notice and re-engagement on MF terms and cinditions. While this has been mooted many times on this and other threads but BA has not yet been pushed into a corner by UNITE during this dispute, their thinking and manoeuvering has kept them ahead so far. IA was the UNITE final option, we have yet to see the BA final option, perhaps it would be better if the CC community do not push BA too hard. BA still has options and none of them would be pleasant for the cabin crew.

[notlangley]

How much power over negotiations should a lay trade union representative have?
As Red Adair saidIf you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

[Litebulbs]

I just hope that if the appeal is reversed, then it is used as no more than a negotiating tool, not a massive flag waving fingers up to BA. I wouldn't say the moral high ground will have been gained, but played right, some concessions could be gained. I doubt that this will be the case however.

[west lakes]

Just to add to the de-rostering

1/ As I recall Mr Holly was dismissed for de-rostering himself for union duties, so BA has set a precedent with not de-rostering reps. Why should the BASSA chair be any different?

2/ I seem to recall that the facilities agreement was withdrawn from summer '09, can't remember which party instigated that.

[Juan Tugoh]

I share your concerns, and I guess it will have a lot to do with who is doing the negotiating. The experienced UNITE team are more likely to use it as a tool to help reach a negotiated settlement, whereas BASSA are likely to use it far more belligerently. It seems that it is UNITE is the main negotiating body and that BASSA are being sidelined, so hope remains. BASSA will spin the result and that may lead to problems in gaining a resolution that will be accepted.

Hopefully UNITE will be given a fair warning of the options of failure to agree before BA were to do anything as drastic and final as the 90 day option. BA have shown a lot of restraint in not going down this road so far, let us hope they are not pushed into a situation where they have to re-issue contracts.

[Litebulbs]

Liebulbs - typo I hope:eek:

Completely agree.

[jimtherev]

Litebulbs: a week or so back on this thread you wrote something to the effect that you and one other are 'disregarded' as to your input.
As a lurker on this and t'other thread I would like to disagree and thank you personally. An unashamedly pro-union person, you have provided a constant input of sanity. Your contribution is immensely valuable.
Thanks again.

[west lakes]

It can be quite interesting reading agreements (though I guess BA has so many, covering different work groups it would not be a good idea to publish them for all to see).
(We have one agreement covering all staff (there used to be three) that is freely available on the company intranet)

You find that if the company and the lay reps can't reach agreement, full time officers automatically get involved.

You find that the company is there to manage the business, the unions to intervene on behalf on the employees

Obviously in this case there are 2 separate branches of the same union involved it would, possibly, make sense for the full time officers to be negotiating.

[notlangley]

That is an excellent procedure.

[eticket]

baggersup

I just reread the original decisions by Mr. Holland. The suit says that Malone et al are suing for themselves and on behalf of 5,337 cabin crew members. And that 6,100 at LHR are not included in the lawsuit.

I wonder if your earlier query about the number of Cabin Crew involved in the Court Case might have something to do with an appeal that went out for Cabin Crew to sign up as Claimants.

from Desertia 21 Nov 2009 #3501 (link at the bottom of this post)
Following the legal proceedings initiated against BA regarding imposition of new terms and conditions the Court has ordered our lawyers OH Parsons to provide a list of members of cabin crew who want to pursue the claim against BA. That list has to be submitted to the Court no later than 7 December.

We need the maximum to put their names forward as additional Claimants. All cabin crew are urged to put forward their names.

There was concern expressed on here that anyone who did sign up might make themselves liable for Costs / Damages if the Case was lost. I don't know how valid this concern was / still is.

Here is a link to the 21st November 2009 discussion:

http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/379770-british-airways-cc-industrial-relations-negotiations-176.html#post5330468

[Litebulbs]

What do you think?

BA and Unite dispute is stuck in 70s like Life on Mars, says union leadership candidate | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/18/british-airways-unite-dispute-like-life-on-mars)

For even you non trade unionists, surely this is a step in the right (not politically!) direction?

[west lakes]

Litebulbs
I think that has been the point of many posters, that the tactics from the union side in this dispute were those of the 70's. What makes it worse is that it is obvious in other industries (and parts of BA) that times have moved on.

Just why BASSA got support from above is the concern

[Litebulbs]

The answer is in the name of the union. It was a pretty big ask and as yet hasn't worked at anything below the top table.

[ChicoG]

BA 'will not back down' in cabin crew dispute
19.10.10

British Airways will not back down in the year-long cabin crew dispute and is ready to run a near-full service in the event of another strike, the airline's chief executive Willie Walsh said today.

He said it was "entirely" the fault of the cabin crew's union Unite that the dispute had dragged on for 12 months.

And he added that changes to working practices should have been tackled 10 years ago.

Addressing the annual convention of travel organisation Abta in Malta, Mr Walsh said: "In the past I have seen managers and businesses ignore issues and back down in the face of industrial action. We are not going to do that."

He said that should there be further industrial action BA hoped to be able to run a full service at Gatwick and London City airports and all its long-haul flights at Heathrow, with the only question being just how much of Heathrow's short-haul programme could operate.

Asked if it was "entirely the union's fault" that no settlement had been reached in the dispute, Mr Walsh replied: "Entirely."

Speaking about a possible Christmas strike, Mr Walsh said that Unite would have to go through a number of procedures before such a strike could be called.

He went on: "I don't believe it's the intention of Unite to do that (go through the procedures).

He said that while BA hoped to reach agreement, it was also planning "for all eventualities" and had a "very robust" contingency programme in place.

Mr Walsh said he was not being critical of previous BA managers but added: "We should have faced up to these challenges 10 years ago."

Your move, Tony.

[RTR]

With all the bluster and finger pointing one thing is essential in getting this dispute ended.

The BASSA members MUST insist, knowing that Duncan Holley can have NO future in negotiations with BA, that he resigns and a new General Secretary is elected after a vote as per the constitution of BASSA. It is wrong that he is still their rep and yet but cannot negotiate with BA, and it is blatantly wrong that he can, if allowed, let Unite speak for him. In which case THAT MUST BE WRONG since he no longer represents the members and one by one the reps are disappearing. BASSA is a shambles!

Unite need to pay credence to the problem. The starlings are restless and murmuring.

[PAXboy]

Mr Walsh said he was not being critical of previous BA managers but added: "We should have faced up to these challenges 10 years ago." Always good to say you're not criticising when you are - about time someone said publicly what is so clear.

The French are now in the same playing field about national Pensions. (That probably ought to be in JB but it is related, I suggest.)

[moleytt]

Moleytt
Just out of interest were your cc "real"?
Only asking as the volunteers are back on board in force to keep their aircraft recency.Most flights have about 3 on at the moment.
Actually, I did have a suspicion about one male CC - and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. However, if he was, he seemed to be doing a good job. If there were others, it certainly wasn't noticeable.

moleytt

[617sqn]

Would that be the one who dropped the muffin?
There would possibly be one in every cabin apart from first.

[Mariner9]

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11582609)

British Airways cabin crews are to be balloted on a new deal that could end their long-running industrial dispute.

The new offer was reached in talks between BA chief executive Willie Walsh and Unite joint leader Tony Woodley.

The union has been pressing for the restoration of travel concessions removed from members who went on strike earlier in the year.

It has also been trying to reverse disciplinary sanctions imposed on union members during the dispute.

"There will be a consultative ballot on the offer and we're working to get this underway as soon as practically possible," said a Unite spokeswoman.

BA cabin crew have staged 22 days of strike action since March, costing the airline £150m.

When the dispute began in November last year, it centred on changes to staffing levels, pay and working conditions.

However, Unite has since said that the core issues are the removal of the travel concessions and the implementation of disciplinary sanctions against its members since March.

One wonders how many CC will vote on this proposal given the apparent disinterest shown on the last consultative ballot.

[keel beam]

Juan Tugoh

what yet remains to be seen is what UNITE/BASSA are willing to give up in order to "buy" full return of ST.

Full return of staff travel would be expensive - I would suggest a no strike clause? (expensive enough?)

And I thought I'd copy this in from the CC forum (one I prepared earlier)

Although this has not been mentioned recently, just a thought (and relevant please note Mods)

I saw a BBC Question Time programme recently and one of the hot subjects was Public Spending cuts. Near the end of the programme a London Firefighter (cannot remember the borough) stated that they had been given 90 days notice. Their job would no longer exist in its' present form after the 90 days. Obviously the new contract offered was less desirable than the current contract and saves the borough money.

So fast forward to this current Cabin Crew dispute. Many prophesies of CC being given the 90 day notice have not arisen in fact. I put it to you though, that if it is accepted the company will not give the 90 day notice, on CC that struck, for accepting the MF contract (which I personally would find unfair to said crew) there is no reason why the company cannot invoke the 90 day notice for the striking BASSA crew to accept the contract that has been accepted by non striking, non union crew. This I would find as a fair solution to the dispute.

And before you shoot me down in flames, this dispute is at an impasse. I am certain the company do not really want it to drag on much longer. As much as the striking crew have made their point it is time to put up or shut up and move out.

If you are so venomous in your comments against the company then why are you still working for them? The answer I come up with is money for old rope! The easy life etc. etc.

The above, of course, is IMO

[Juan Tugoh]

One wonders how many CC will vote on this proposal given the apparent disinterest shown on the last consultative ballot

It is a truism that the people that vote are those that are politically engaged. I think it is also fair to say that the strikers are politically engaged - they were the ones who were prepared to make a potentially self-harming stand for their beliefs. It takes little imagination to work out that there will be a strong vote from the strikers. It remains to be seen whether the, usually, uninterested masses can be motivated enough to take part.

It is worthwhile remembering that this is not is not another strike ballot but rather a consultative ballot on whether or not to accept the latest deal. A strike ballot may follow but there remains the problem of which issue to choose for a strike ballot. As has been pointed out in this thread many times, it will have to be a new issue for there to be "protected" strike action.

As I understand, and I may well be wrong, you cannot ballot over things that have not yet happened, so a ballot on MF cannot happen until after 1 Nov. A weeks notice of the ballot and a 3 week consultation process and then a weeks notice of IA to the company would still allow a Christmas strike. However, as there has been no formal grievance or failure to agree etc over MF then I think this could easily be blocked by BA at court for failure of due process. I doubt UNITE would risk another embarrassing injunction blocked strike because they have not done things by the book.

Back to the original point though, turnout for this consultative ballot will be critical. Too small and the union position can be easily seen as very weak, BASSA need a good turn out.

[fincastle84]

BASSA need a good turn out.

Let's hope that there are plenty of volunteers to explain the ballot to those Bassa members who are unable to read.

[Snas]

Unwilling to read - may be a more fair statement Fin.

[call100]

Let's hope that there are plenty of volunteers to explain the ballot to those Bassa members who are unable to read.
Amazing how you think comments like that make you any better......:ugh:

[Mariner9]

Every time there has been some kind of ballot, the consensus on here prior to the ballot has been that CC would finally see sense and vote BASSA down. Hasn't happened yet.

The language coming from BASSA is already along the lines that "we are only recommending this as WW made it one of the conditions of the offer"

They are clearly itching for a strike ballot, and my money is upon them achieving it, and then getting a majority of those who can be bothered to vote opting for further (useless) strikes :mad:

[Neptunus Rex]

You are right, Mariner9:

From DH, on that other thread:
Your ballot, when it arrives will also contain a detailed analysis of the document, to help you to make up your mind.

If you wish to accept it the dispute will end on that basis, if you reject it, the union will issue an immediate ballot for strike action."Bring it on, Baby, bring it on.

[notlangley]

It is worth downloading and printing off the Revised Offer and the covering letter.

Both can be obtained by clicking where indicated at the foot of link. (http://uniteba.com/TheOffer.html)

[617sqn]

Have I missed something?
Looks the same as was offered to non union crew awhile back.

[notlangley]

Top of page SixAn Acas review of all dispute related disciplinary cases that have been dealt with under British Airways' disciplinary procedures will also be conducted. British Airways is committed to giving full and fair consideration to any Acas recommendation arising from that review. Nothing in this section will be taken or cited as a precedent for any past or future cases.

[Diplome]

Well, an interesting read, but I can't help but think I've read that book before.

The cover letter is intruiging in its commentary regarding BASSA's communications.

Its obvious Duncan Holley is staying out of BA.

[Shack37]

Unite and British Airways agree that if any employee who has been subject to disciplinary action (in connection with the current dispute) by British Airways and whose name appears in the confidential annex to this agreement (a 'Relevant Employee') decides to bring an Employment Tribunal claim for unfair dismissal, then as an alternative to Employment Tribunal litigation, that claim will ordinarily be dealt with under the Acas arbitration scheme for the resolution of unfair dismissal disputes.

British Airways and Unite agree that the Arbitrator's decision will be binding and before entering the Acas arbitration scheme they will enter into an agreement to this effect, to which the Relevant Employee will also be a party.

(My bold)

Does this mean?
If the Arbitrator decides a dismissed employee should be re-instated then BA are bound to comply?

[west lakes]

The union will re-engage with the existing facilities agreement. Negotiations will take place between the company and the cabin crew union national officers, with a view to reaching a mutually agreeable framework within 8 weeks of signing this agreement

I found this paragraph interesting, in that the branches are not involved!

[fincastle84]

Amazing how you think comments like that make you any better......

It doesn't make me any better, it's just an illustration of the totally useless stance taken by Bassa & it's members:ugh::ugh: throughout this dispute, one that hopefully will soon be over with common sense the obvious victor.:ok:

[Diplome]

Shack37:

I believe it may...though the employee would be waiving their rights to further relief. A definite catch 22 though many companies prefer binding arbitration as it takes out the possibility of numerous appeals.

Wasn't there language in the agreement that BA had to agree to the selected arbitrator?

Westlakes:

Good catch. Its looking as if Duncan's wish to actually meet Mr. Walsh is going to remain unfulfilled. This situation must be tiring as can be for Unite, especially given todays serious news about job losses.

[Eddy]

It is a truism that the people that vote are those that are politically engaged. I think it is also fair to say that the strikers are politically engaged - they were the ones who were prepared to make a potentially self-harming stand for their beliefs. It takes little imagination to work out that there will be a strong vote from the strikers. It remains to be seen whether the, usually, uninterested masses can be motivated enough to take part. Wow! What a tremendously narrow-minded post!

I didn't go on strike, am politically engaged, and also made a 'potentially self-harming stand' for my beliefs.

Only, the harm I face isn't from BA in the (hugely unlikely) form of sacking or suspension, it's from the already-realised form of hate mail in my drop file, nasty messages on facebook and people writing my phone number on the wall of the "gay toilet" at Heathrow, resulting in my phone being particularly busy with texts and calls from gentlemen seemingly wanting to engage in some form of sexual intercourse.

I respect the decision most of my striking colleagues made, but there are others who would wouldn't enjoy the damping down benefits of my p*ss if they were on fire. I know who they are (CCTV and the cooperation of BAA are marvellous things) but my good nature prevents me from taking things further.

[Juan Tugoh]

I meant no disrespect to those who took the difficult decision to strike - it has lead to "self harm" in the sense that they lost ST and money and have, as yet, gained nothing for their beliefs.

I stand by my comments as to the likelihood of those who went on strike being more likely to vote in any ballot be it consultative or otherwise. The problem with any democratic system that allows a free vote is that only those that feel strongly about an issue tend to vote. This dispute is a classic example of that very tendency, with a particularly strong example being the last consultative ballot having a turn out of about 40%. The same is true of General Elections where there are many that just cannot be bothered, they seldom hold strong views.

[Eddy]

Now i am lost, Juan. We seem to be making the same point but your previous post seemed to be arguing the contrary.

Forgive my misinterpretation.

[Diplome]

Eddy:

I believe what Juan is trying to state (and he will not hesitate to correct me if I am wrong in my assessment) is that the more negative and militant core of BASSA are those who are most reliable to participate in any vote.

The numbers tell us that the majority will show up for work, will do their jobs and get on with their lives...and they may not feel compelled to answer BASSA's "calls to action".

Simply put, while still members they simply can't be bothered by BASSA's rhetoric and can't be bothered to make their voice heard.

For SLF this is an issue. Cabin Crew is more than some inane individual wandering around with a drink in her hand and wearing men's undergarments with Mr. Walsh's photo on her behind. Many of us wish the moderate members to be determined to have their say.

[Colonel White]

Re: the option for going to ACAS for those sacked staff. Few things to note.
1) it only covers 'any employee who has been subject to disciplinary action (in connection with the current dispute) by British Airways and whose name appears in the confidential annex' Now my reading of this is that Mr Holley is out of luck as his actions that led to his dismissal are wholly outside the dispute. Moreover, the list is confidential, so the only people who know who is on it are TW and WW. The wider BASSA membership will not be told.

2) ACAS are more about judging whether BA's response was commensurate to the actions of any crew sacked. It won't look at process (which a Tribunal would) and it won't provide for any damages in the event that the individual is held to have been unfairly dismissed. So not the greatest of options

3) Anyone who opts to appeal has to be damned certain that they want the grisly details of whatever they did put on public display. It may be that an arbitrator will determine that BA's actions were in fact very lenient.

4) Anyone who opts for this route is effectively writing off any chance of compensation from BA. The best they will get is possible reinstatement.

[LD12986]

So much to read between the lines in terms of what has happened over the past week.

If the new offer is conditional on Unite, BASSA and CC89 recommending acceptance, does that mean, in theory, that one word from DH to push people to vote against it means it could be pulled in an instant?

[Litebulbs]

One major point that I see with arbitration is -

They [the arbitrator] will not decide what they would have done and then say that the employer should have done the same.

It will be a discussion on process.

[Colonel White]

If the new offer is conditional on Unite, BASSA and CC89 recommending acceptance, does that mean, in theory, that one word from DH to push people to vote against it means it could be pulled in an instant?

Suspect that if DH attempts to get people to vote against the offer, Unite will excommunicate him. I get the feeling that the Unite leadership have reached the end of their tether with regard to the mavericks in BASSA. TW would lose a huge amount of face with WW as he would then need to work damned hard to stop WW from summarily withdrawing staff travel again - note that this has been reinstated as a goodwill gesture, presumably as a sign that the dispute is at an end. BA would be able to say with huge justification that there was no point in further discussions with Unite as they are not able to deliver on any deal. This would leave a large chunk of staff in the position where they are members of a union but the union was powerless to cut a deal with management.

[Dawdler]

Thanks to Neptunus Rex for the following quote:
From DH, on that other thread:
Quote:
Your ballot, when it arrives will also contain a detailed analysis of the document, to help you to make up your mind.

If you wish to accept it the dispute will end on that basis, if you reject it, the union will issue an immediate ballot for strike action."I wonder what will be contained in the "detailed analysis of the document" particularly if any of the BASSA committee have had a hand in its preparation?

[Dawdler]

Channex101 on the other thread seems to think only the crew involved should be interested in this dispute:
I don't understand why so many people on here who have nothing to do with this dispute think they have the right to comment.
Not that it affects anyone else of course.............!

[call100]

It doesn't make me any better, it's just an illustration of the totally useless stance taken by Bassa & it's members:ugh::ugh: throughout this dispute, one that hopefully will soon be over with common sense the obvious victor.:ok:
Making blanket statements hardly illustrates anything.....:ugh: Not all BASSA members voted for or took part in IA.
I don't think there will be any real 'Victor' from any of this...Both sides failed miserably. As you say, hopefully it will soon be over.

[Richard228]

I don't think there will be any real 'Victor' from any of this...Both sides failed miserablybut BA have got the new Mixed Fleet introduced, have got the lower staffing levels implemented on longhaul, and some of the hardline BASSA members have got rid of themselves :ooh:, which should make life easier for all going forward.

It has come at a cost of course, but there have definately been some big wins for BA.

I am struggling to think of any wins for BASSA here, other than getting back ST, which had they negotiated properly in the first place, they should never have lost of course... but thats another story.

[Mariner9]

As you say, hopefully it will soon be over.

Sadly, I don't share your optimism. The Miss M's of this world appear able to whip the majority of their fellow CC's interested enough to vote into a sense of outrage at will.

BASSA want to strike. Let them. I think most on here (perhaps even Litebulbs?) would agree that BA would have to take decisive action should it come to that.

[Hotel Mode]

I don't think there will be any real 'Victor' from any of this...Both sides failed miserably.

If you had told a BASSA member this time last year that by now the following would have happened:

1/2 Crewmembers off every long haul flight
1-3 Crewmembers off every short haul flight
2 Year pay freeze
New fleet not only started but growing rapidly
BA's cost savings target not only made but exceeded
1 night off after long range diversions
BASSA no longer remotely involved in day to day ops
Staff travel lost for 4 months
Staff travel seniority lost
BASSA no longer the effective negotiating body for cabin crew
4000 other staff trained to take their place any time they threaten a strike
60% of their colleagues ignoring BASSAs strike call
BASSA totally neutered

They would have had absolute apoplexy. Its their worst case scenario plus a whole load more.

BA will make back the strike losses in savings that they wouldnt otherwise have achieved within 18 months. Its hard to see how theres any doubt about a victor here.

[call100]

Richard228
I respect your opinion but I don't think that BA are the shining light you believe. BASSA have done a lot of harm to the TU movement. I don't agree with the way this bitter battle has/is being fought by either side. I don't see any 'Victories' to anyone except for the lawyers....


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...:)

[Richard228]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gifalthough I do agree with you on one thing... yes the lawyers do always seem to win :ok:

[Juan Tugoh]

BASSA have done a lot of harm to the TU movement. I don't agree with the way this bitter battle has/is being fought by either side. I don't see any 'Victories' to anyone except for the lawyers....

I think you are partly right, this dispute could have been handled more adroitly, however, as Hotel Mode listed:

1/2 Crewmembers off every long haul flight
1-3 Crewmembers off every short haul flight
2 Year pay freeze
New fleet not only started but growing rapidly
BA's cost savings target not only made but exceeded
1 night off after long range diversions
BASSA no longer remotely involved in day to day ops
Staff travel lost for 4 months
Staff travel seniority lost
BASSA no longer the effective negotiating body for cabin crew
4000 other staff trained to take their place any time they threaten a strike
60% of their colleagues ignoring BASSAs strike call
BASSA totally neutered

I think that there have been some clear victories. Ultimately the conduct of the campaign is not as important as the outcome. There has been a clear outcome here, not one that BASSA would have wanted or hoped for.

[Litebulbs]

Sadly, I don't share your optimism. The Miss M's of this world appear able to whip the majority of their fellow CC's interested enough to vote into a sense of outrage at will.

BASSA want to strike. Let them. I think most on here (perhaps even Litebulbs?) would agree that BA would have to take decisive action should it come to that.

I don't think BASSA want to strike, but they feel that it is required, because so much focus is on the dismissed employees, as it should be.

No doubt some of the dismissed would have been dismissed even if Bob Crowe had managed to sneak onto the management side of the disciplinary process. If BA can accept that the arbitration process allows the independent reviewer to reinstate dismissed employees without question, based on all the facts presented, then that could be a solution.

But as I see it, the negotiations are complete and a free vote (no public BASSA reps spin so far) will take place. If the vote is for rejection, then enough due process has been followed to make the dismissals fair in my mind and the new contract will not be the one that the vote will be about.

[AV Flyer]

From DH, on that other thread:
Quote:
Your ballot, when it arrives will also contain a detailed analysis of the document, to help you to make up your mind.

If you wish to accept it the dispute will end on that basis, if you reject it, the union will issue an immediate ballot for strike action."


It will be interesting to see if DH (BASSA) can continue to show his reluctant support for the ballot and not break out with some negative and misleading comments or "spin" thus revealing his true feelings and potentially influencing BASSA members into rejecting the offer. This is precisely why BA have required UNITE & BASSA to recommend the offer.

It could be argued that DH has already overstepped his remit in stating that "if you reject it, the union will issue an immediate ballot for strike action" which from my understanding is not up to him to say and could thus be considered as his first non-supportive and misleading remark as it is not at all certain that the union will automatically and immediately issue a strike ballot in the event of rejection.

Woodley needs to reign Holley in before he says one thing too many and BA cry 'foul' and pull their offer.

[Ancient Observer]

In the proposals, it says that BA needs a complete review of its IR framework.
Quote
Both parties are jointly committed to a comprehensive review of industrial relations between BA and Unite-representing cabin crew to be undertaken by a mutually acceptable third party supported by Acas with a view to them making recommendations that both parties will accept as binding

I would volunteer to take part in this, with Diplome as Chair and Litebulbs as the "TU side".

However, I suspect that one of the usual suspects such as John Purcell of Bath Uni. will get the role.
(John - can I be Secretary of the review, please, with Fred Higgs representing the TU side??)

[Diplome]

Ancient Observer:

As Chair I would simply move the meeting to after 6 p.m., to be held at my favorite sushi restaurant and copious amounts of sake would be required.

...and if anyone texts from the table they have to pick up the check :)

[Neptunus Rex]

Diplome,

As always, a breath of fresh air.

[Diplome]

Now Neptunus Rex...you don't have to go that far to get an invitation. :)

You can attend as a customer/passenger representative. Including the concerns of how decisions impact the customer/passenger would be groundbreaking indeed.

[Granary]

Holley says:
If you wish to accept it the dispute will end on that basis, if you reject it, the union will issue an immediate ballot for strike action."

Just keep him away from the machine wot does.

The fact is the CC have a chance to move on and it is very much in their interest now to accept that. Just think! During the next 3 years living a normal life will be a big test for all of us. To even think that BASSA would call for another strike is too absurd to even give it thought. But Holley would do it for one person HIMSELF. That is who you are dealing with and he cannot any longer represent you at BA. Think about it - its your life and livelihood he is messing with.

[notlangley]

The vote that is to take place is arguably the most important vote that cc have ever participated in._ The result of the voting will be determined by the dvads group._ This group is the largest faction of British Airways cabin crew._ I tend to the view that none (or nearly none) of the dvads group read this thread, or the "other" thread or the flyertalk thread or the BASSA thread or the uniteba thread or the PCCC thread._ Therefore nothing that is posted on any of these threads will influence the vote.

What follows from this bit of making-it-up-as-I-go-along is that probably none of the dvads group contribute to any of these threads._ Therefore when the vote comes, the result will be a complete surprise to all of us who read any of these threads.

Oh by the way dvads means "didn’t vote and didn’t strike"._ dvads are the only ones who are free of guilt - they didn’t do anything, so they couldn’t have done anything wrong.

[AV Flyer]

baggersup:

Agree completely. This is in one step beyond "window blinds gate" and Simpson tweeting from the confidential ACAS negotiations.

If I were BA at this sensitive 'discovery' stage in the negotiations (where BASSA members are learning and questioning what the offer is about) I would expect a written retraction from UNITE, to the extent that they can still put the genie back in the bottle, followed by a statement that Holley has been dismissed.

The more I think about it the more serious I believe this to be. BA has negotiated and surrendered a lot of ground here including returning ST in good faith and reached agreement with UNITE to support the offer to their members and to improve the professionalism of their negotiating techniques moving forwards. This is nothing short of a bad faith slap in the face and thumbing of his nose at BA by Holley.

[AlpineSkier]

@ AV

Holley dismissed ? From what ?

Unless he has been hired by Unite - and this seems to be unknown - they can't sack him from his current BASSA role as i understand it.

Presumably BASSA elections will soon be a much-followed topic.

[AV Flyer]

AS:

..... dismissed, removed, gagged, injuncted, derecognised, etc., what ever UNITE has in its legal power to assure BA it is able to do - I guess.

[LD12986]

The vote that is to take place is arguably the most important vote that cc have ever participated in.

Indeed it is. However, cabin crew previously had the chance to vote on an offer that is barely any different to this offer and not even 50% of them bothered to vote. That may have been in part because of the relatively short two week ballot period. However, that is still a low turn out.

With staff travel having been restored, and four months passing since the end of the strikes with absolutely nothing achieved by Unite, things may have changed now. But the greatest danger is this offer being rejected because the militant minority all go out and vote no, and the moderate/disinterested majority simply don't bother either way.

[Litebulbs]

Now, that is something to think about, if you believe what has been preached on both threads, that each deal would get worse.

[Litebulbs]

Do you think that if the vote comes back as a no, then the contract enforced utilising the SOSR defence will be this current offer, if the ballot turnout is low?

edit - if that is the course of action that BA choose....

[Colonel White]

Baggers and others.

My understanding is that if the Unite membership accept this deal, it will be applied to all staff. The caveat is those non-union staff who signed the earlier offer in June. If the latest deal is better than the deal they signed, they get the new deal. If the deal they signed is better, they can stay on that. All the staff who either didn't sign the June deal or left the union after the deadline will get the deal on offer assuming that the Unite members accept it.

If the Unite members reject the deal, BA may then offer it to the now non-union members who didn't sign the previous deal, but it is not guaranteed.

[west lakes]

I find it curious that the changes to the disruption agreement haven't been mentioned.

This is one change to that accepted by non-union staff. I can't help but think that this could be awkward as those that had already signed could be entitled to more time off than those that didn't!

[Diplome]

baggersup:

A short and simple statement that says much:


If BA has done this "math" or their own version of it, then patience will be their virtue


A very simple approach that has been lost to BASSA and its more militant followers while they have been only willing to listen the cacophony of their own messages.

Lost is in their noise is something any skilled negotiater could see as their largest weakness. They weren't listening to the silence.

Reading BA's responses, and Unite's engagement, should tell them "This is it". I'm almost wishful that they strike so that they are forced to learn one of life's big lessons regarding business. Its not enough to scream...you also have to listen.

If there was a way to figure sushi into this it would almost be a perfect storm. :)

[PAXboy]

BBC News - BA to restore some crew travel perks (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11606220)
Interesting reading.

[Snas]

So thats what an olive branch looks like.

[notlangley]

Acas statement
Over 50 hours of talks were held in a central London hotel which concluded at Acas headquarters
____reference:-___link (http://www.acas.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3159)

[Ancient Observer]

ACAS have always talked drivel when they pat themselves on the back for providing 3 or 4 meeting rooms.
That's all they really do - provide meeting rooms. 1 for each "side" as adjournment rooms, and 1 for the few minutes spent in "talks", plus 1 for corridor discussions.

There have never, ever been 50 hours of talks in any dispute. None of the participants has got enough to say.

Most of the time spent at ACAS is in adjournments, not in talks.
Seldom does any ACAS paid official contribute anything worth listenning to.

[notlangley]

Thank you Oh Ancient One for your most valuable advice._ I am only 78 years old._ Will I also become old and grumpy when I reach your great age?

[Entaxei]

I think there's a training course you can take, if you meet the age requirements. But - you have to be willing to listen, so no union negotiators are allowed. :ok:

[Litebulbs]

I do love a sweeping generalisation.

[Ancient Observer]

Notlangley, et al,

Surprisingly, you do not need to be old to discover how monumentally incompetent at decent ER ACAS actually are.

Just turn up as a participant in any dispute on either side :{to learn that their only valid role is as someone who hires out rooms..................for free in most cases. (But not in the case of mediation and/or arbitration, when they want to charge you for the rooms and for the planks that come with the rooms.)

Litebulbs

- are you going to join Diplome and I on the fundamental review of BA ER??

[Mariner9]

From the main thread...

The csd as well as most of the pursers and more senior main crew were furious about the new offer, they called and insult and they made it clear that hell would have to freeze over before they were going to accept this it.
Furthermore they couldn't wait to talk to some union reps in person to get an explanation how this could have been put before them for a vote.

What a depressing post. The CDS's may well view the offer as unacceptable (they still have to push a trolley after all :rolleyes:) but do they not think that their fellow crew should be permitted to have a say in their own future?

[teddybear44]

Over on the other thread, I was amazed to see that someone stated something along the lines of what would all the BASSA bashers do if the offer was accepted and that they should get a life and stop interfering in other peoples business.

Quite amazing: After all the damage that has been done by one group, endangering the rest of the employees futures (I am not one) and perhaps at the time, the future of the airline not to mention the disruption to travel plans of thousands, this does seem to show how insular they are, ignorant of the consequences of their own actions on others, the real world and the hardships befalling others elsewhere.

[teddybear44]

Mariner 9,

Indeed depressing, as you state. Their ability to comprehend the harsh reality of the economy at the moment, the contributions asked and made by others and their insular approach is quite astounding!

Ted

[notlangley]

These are extracts from a blog on www.newlftproject.org (http://www.newlftproject.org)

An email sent to the private addresses of Unite members by general-secretary-candidate Les Bayliss's campaign has opened up the old enmity between the Amicus and TGWU sides of the merged union.
Ron Pursey, Unite convenor at the engineering company Cummins, said
"Tony Woodley is the Unite joint general secretary not the T and G general secretary and I believe he should remember that."

As would be expected the commentator has views and this anonymous person says
I don't think the current Unite leadership has done enough to back the BA workers.
_______reference:-________link (http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/blog_comments/Bayliss_emails_attack_Woodley_and_BA_strikers/)

[Litebulbs]

Do you agree with Les Bayliss? I do. I have spoken to him on the issue and fully support his position. But that is from an Amicus mindset:ok:

[notlangley]

It is a tragedy that this division goes on and on.
____reference:-________link-1 (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sacked-ba-union-man-to-appeal-1266001.html)
____reference:-________link-2 (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/mike-coleman-1256983.html)
Is it any wonder that Unite is dysfunctional and Ununited!

[Litebulbs]

I might agree with the point about Ununited, but what are the links trying to prove, other than the paper was incorrect?

[AV Flyer]

If we are to consider what might be an eventual outcome to this dispute then, while considering the blow-by-blow matters, we also have to keep in mind the high level view.

We must not forget that this is not about imposition, ST, disciplinaries, etc., rather it is a monumental power struggle for who is in control of BA's business operations.

BASSA's leadership or BA's management?

As such this is not a classical union/management dispute over the usual pay, holidays and pensions, which is a common misunderstanding of the press and other casual observers who apply conventional thinking to the issues behind an industrial dispute, rather it is nothing short of a war.

While TW might be saying he has secured the best offer he possibly can and we keep hearing statements to the effect of "working one down is now accepted it's just about ST, disciplinaries, etc." the absolute truth of the matter is that to BASSA's leadership nothing short of restoration of everything prior to this dispute began plus being in control of BA's operations again by knowing BA's management will capitulate when they call a strike will be acceptable.

As such BASSA's leadership will never agree to any TW/Unite negotiated terms and BA's management can never agree to BASSA's leadership being able to influence anything ever again moving forwards otherwise trouble will only break-out again at the slightest issue.

Put bluntly, the only possible outcome of this dispute (war) from the outset was a win for one side by the other side being completely crushed.

I wonder who that will be and how it will eventually happen?

[Litebulbs]

Litebulbs

- are you going to join Diplome and I on the fundamental review of BA ER??

Would love to. Any of you business people got some room on a company card to put me through some mediation training?! It has been pointed out earlier, that as a union negotiator, I need some direction on "active listening"!

[rethymnon]

'miss m' posts from dover: have just noticed there's a dover in california. just a thought.

what worries me, if bassa is to have any (relevant) future, is how the more junior cabin crew can be properly represented? recent posts suggest they are either disinterested or feel they have no control over events and it is left to csds' and pursers to run bassa. it should now be clear that this does not work properly as their sectional interests have been prioritised to the detriment of all (including themselves in the long run).

either unite or the bassa membership need to ensure that no one section amongst the cabin crew can dominate the branch committee again.

it would be interesting to hear if the pccc has addressed this issue of representation yet.

[notlangley]

reply to Litebulbs
1) Mike Coleman was sacked by BA in 1997._ In the correction the Independent did not detract anything more than salary and spitting._ Uniteba says that Mike Coleman was a predecessor of Duncan Holley._ Duncan Holley was sacked by BA this year for the much more moderate reason - non-attendance.________link (http://www.pprune.org/uniteba.com/ESW/Files/Duncan_Holley_06_04_10.doc)

2) An incident completely unrelated to Duncan Holley is the assault in the carpark that is significant because it meant that on certain key occasions "BASSA 2000" and "Cabin Crew ‘89" sat in different rooms.

[Litebulbs]

An incident completely unrelated to Duncan Holley is the assault in the carpark that is significant because it meant that on certain key occasions "BASSA 2000" and "Cabin Crew ‘89" sat in different rooms.

They would have done then as they were different union groups.

[notlangley]

On 19 February 2010 Sir Christopher Holland (Sitting as a Judge of the High Court) saidThe BASSA and Amicus factions were separately represented and sat in separate rooms. Despite the efforts of ACAS they could not be persuaded to join forces for a meeting with BA. The latter raised the possibility of separate agreements with the respective factions but, understandably, that did not appeal. In the overall result there was no meeting between the Union and BA.

[Litebulbs]

I agree with the not united bit, but the links provided were from a time when the two unions were separate.

[MPN11]

... after a few weeks abroad, flying with a perfectly acceptable airline ;) I've finally got time to catch up with the latest developments. Hmmmm.

It's interesting to see we're all pretty much where we were when I left ... a dysfunctional BASSA, the duty militants, UNITE struggling to control it's child, CC sitting in 2 separate camps, and BA operating normally.

Still, I have further forward bookings with BA [about which I have no concern at all] so I can just sit back and watch the plot unravel. Which it will soon, from what I've read over the last couple of days.

I have nothing to contribute at this stage ... I'll leave that to the experts and those more closely involved with the issue. Just wanted to say "Hi" :cool:

[fincastle84]

Welcome home.:ok:

I too have recently arrived home having flown very comfortably & with very friendly BA crew members to & from NBO. BA just gets better, as does T-5.

It was obvious months ago that Bassa had lost big time. The final act is rapidly reaching an acceptable conclusion.

[MPN11]

Thanks, Finky.

Flights were punctual, some aircraft getting a bit old and grubby, AVOD worked, food was acceptable [no better than that, and in one case AWFUL] ...

... and the CC were 'OK' on the long-haul [LHR] and outstanding as always on the short-haul [LGW] trip. I wish they would swap over. ;)

Ho hum, on we go. What next, I wonder? :bored:

[Neptunus Rex]

This is getting to be like "Mrs Dale's Diary."

The original protagonist was sacked, her place taken by another Dame, then the whole series was binned by the Bosses.

Reaction will be the same. Some will weep. Some will rejoice. Some will maintain the rage.
Most will say "BASSA, who?"

[MPN11]

This is getting to be like "Mrs Dale's Diary."

.... Yes :)

[AlpineSkier]

@Litebulbs

Referring to the CC thread, what were you really thinking when you posted the link to the flyertalk site and the claim that 2 crew-members had won pnds 20 K damages from BA over lost staff travel ?

Really , if that had been the case it would have been everywhere on the web in BIG letters - and certainly on Pprune - very quickly irrespective of any gagging agreement.

It would have all crew clamouring big time to do similar.

Without any further knowledge I think this is a total lie . as . in spite of TCGB, we don't have secret courts and the importance of this decision would have been such as to have whipped up all relevant forums in a few hours.

Having said that, I find your posts somewhat difficult. IMO 90% are reasonable ( i.e. logical even though I may not accept the logic ) but then with 10% you attempt to introduce this mad **** .

Is this the **** sandwich technique i.e. slip in the nasty with the palatable ?

[Diplome]

Can anyone kindly provide Litebulbs link from the other thread regarding a "settlement".?

Thank you.