2.9% now, but it will cost you thousands later!!!

Ha ha. Your "contract" will only last as long as Bill Francis. You are all now exposed and isolated, just where BA want you. And what contract have you signed anyway? BF1 or BF2? neither will be honoured by any subsequent manager, as per usual performance of BA.

You have also kissed goodbye to the 1948 Redeployment Agreement. This will affect your pensions and if IFCE is suddenly over populated with MF crew, you will be issued with new contracts with 90 days notice.

But at least you have the PCCC to stand up to BA for you!!

And only an utter lunatic would reference a 1948 agreement in 2011 Industrial Relations.

"Stop the world, I want to get off....!!!"

Before any of you think that the PCCC is anything but a quasi union,I would like to thank ftsu for this excellent research:


"Had a response back from a nice man at the certification office. It appears the Pccc's newfound union status is rather less concrete than it would appear.

As they have declined to be listed, at a small cost of £150, then there are limited investigations carried out as to whether it is indeed a trade union or not. To appear on the "schedule" of trade unions and not the "list" is not sufficient evidence to qualify as a trade union in a court of law.

Additionally, no checks are carried out as to whether the "union" is independent or not. This is only dobe after a request for a "certificate of independence" is received.

So to summarise.

The pccc may not be a trade union
If it is then it is NOT considered to be independent by the certification office."

CCCP, Nothing is forever, sometimes it is wise to give the benefit of the doubt instead of keep fighting for a lost cause, BA can predict exactly when the last present T & C employee will peacefully terminate their contract with the company they don t want or need any fighting.
The choice is ours and I hope you ll be able to accept the consequences of your actions and decisions as much as I am prepared to do so myself.
Time will tell.

The centrepiece of BA's plan to reduce costs is to destroy the 1948 Redeployment Agreement.
In short this agreement ensures that wages and therefore pensions can never be reduced. Rather than scrap this agreement in one go, which would probably trigger company-wide strike action, BA intends to nibble round the edges and gradually do away with the agreement section by section.

The current plan to create a two-tier workforce among cabin crew is a case in point. BA intends to make 3,000 redundancies through setting up the new MF of cabin crew.

This new fleet will be on reduced wages and therefore pensions. Any promotion or redeployment from the old, better paid fleet will be into the new fleet on worse pay etc. This process will then allow BA to reduce the pay to cabin crew over a number of years.

Since cabin crew make up one-third of staff this will make a significant dent in BA's pension contributions and would put the company in a powerful position to use similar tactics against the rest of the workforce.....especially the pilots.

Those of you who have signed new contracts will be Fast Tracked off of the 1948 Redeployment Agreement. That is the price you will pay for being weak-willed, uninformed and basically, pathetically naive.

That is the price you will pay for being weak willed, uninformed and basically pathetically naive.

You appear to have become quite the charmer today havent you!

Each member of staff has the right to chose their own path, in your view short term gain and long term pain. Perhaps this will be so...

The predictions from BASSA over the last 2 years have not had the best record though, so it's not that surprising that people are less inclined to listen. The difference between a simple lie, incorrect prediction and truth is often best revealed by time alone.

...and the passing of time has revealed much about BASSA, little of which was good.

A serious question if I may. Why do you back BASSA and its archaic stance, a leader with his own agenda, and, furthermore, what do you think a strike will achieve especially with close to zero support (and anger) from staff, the media and public alike in an era of austerity?

Thanks for being on here. It's vital that we understand the BASSA mindset though Ive totally failed in that regard, even after all this time.

Thank you

If none of you can work out the companies strategy and think that you will spend the rest of your careers on your current T&C's, then my observations in my last post are correct.

If you have signed either BF1 or BF2 (the latest offer), you no longer have the protection of the 1948 Redeployment Agreement.

The many BA flight crew who pontificate on this forum about cabin crew matters, only have their current pension provisions thankls to the Redeployment Agreement. Do you think they would sign a new offer and risk losing those gold plated pensions. Don't forget BA flight crew are only 7% of the workforce but represent 25% of payrole and pension costs. I would not be so naive as to suggest that they will be immune from Willie's attentions in the future, when he has finished with the cabin crew.

CCCP,

Utter myth and you know it. Anyone signing the offer from BA still benefits from all current agreements in force. The re-deployment agreement has not been changed for certain groups of staff and, indeed, I'm sure you'll know there have been meetings at BATUC level in order to try and negotiate a company-wide agreement on this very subject. You demean your argument with the usual, borderline hysterical, BASSA scaremongering which is long on rhetoric and short on actual, verifiable fact. Sadly for those that wish their argument to be taken seriously, it's not the first time and, I'm guessing it won't be the last in this long, sorry dispute.

And, albeit off topic, we know that we're always in the company's sights for cost savings. It'd be naive and foolish to assume otherwise. Look where that sort of behaviour has got some.

MrB

CCCP, you are continually baiting. That is against PPRuNe rules - please desist. If you cannot debate leave the arena.

PCCC,

Which is it to be? You've managed, neatly, to sidestep the point I made which was that you wrote an untruth when you said that anyone signing the new agreement had signed away their rights under the redeployment agreement. They haven't. The paperwork with the offer clearly states as such. Ergo, I can only assume that it's either a) wishful thinking on your part, b) a malicious desire to scaremonger without basis in fact or c) that you are so indoctrinated that you believe what you want to believe regardless of any evidence in front of you and others.

BA have made no secret about their desire to renegotiate careerlink and the redeployment agreement. Indeed, as I tried to allude to politely, if you'd kept abreast of negotiations across the company, this has been discussed at a multi-TU level. Guess who didn't want to play whilst there?

As for your other wild-eyed speculations, we'll leave those for another thread as, again, you'll know full well from the restrained input of the moderators, that this thread is not about fulfilling your lust for seeing the metaphorical blood of pilots being spilled.

MrB

Re the utter reluctance of the leaders of the PCCC to identify themselves. If the PCCC is to be responsible for collective bargaining rights for the mixed fleet crew, agreeing and setting the t&cs for this group; would it be something of an embarrassment to discover that the negotiators were enjoying other, more beneficial, agreements on BA's 'legacy' fleets, and could benefit from improvements negotiated by Unite, a union they no longer support.

Might I suggest that CCCP makes the point that IAG/BA will not stop at reducing the t&cs of the cabin crew community. With his buddy O'Leary this is a race to the bottom in terms of t&cs for all airline staff. The one agreement that covers all BA staff, except it would appear the new mixed fleet crew, is the re-deployment agreement. This is a great safe-guard for BA staff but an expence for BA. As ex-regional cabin crew, I know many of my regional office, ramp and customer service colleagues have been saved by the agreement.

PC767,

I don't think anyone was disputing that BA would rather have a redeployment agreement fit for their purposes rather than ours. Indeed, there have been negotiations to that effect. But there's a world of difference between you saying that and CCCP claiming (erroneously) that the crew who have elected to sign the new agreement have signed away all rights to the protections that agreement currently provides for all staff members. They categorically have not done so.

As for the PCCC, I agree, it's probably around about time some faces were put to the organisation to allow them to have their chance at offering the different way. Interestingly the "research" conducted earlier with the Certification Officer proves nothing about the origins or funding of the PCCC, merely the actions thus far taken/not taken on the road to recognition. It doesn't make it a management mouthpiece just because the likes of CCCP seem to need it to be that in order to fuel the righteous indignation so typical of many. (Not yourself PC767)

MrB

Wow,

Really CCCP is that all you've got? It's called a council so it's not a union? Would that not make BASSA as an association something simillar. After all, they use the same nomenclature as BALPA - that's an association too. But, hang on, they're both operating as representative unions. What's in a name in this instance? Nothing and, thus, I'd argue your point carries no weight other than the usual vapid lunging that characterises so much of the BASSA message.

Only by the application of your own particular brand of logic could that then be seen as definitively proving the PCCC to be a sham. You posit an argument devoid of logical construction or fact. Not, sadly for BASSA, unusual. Your tenet seems to be that because you want the PCCC to be a management funded puppet/sweetheart union, then that is all that is needed to make it so. If, by the additional grasping of unrelated straws, you can add fuel to that rhetorical furnace, then, apparently, so much the better. I've lost count of how often I've said on here that if those who support the union (or association, if you will) came on here with fact and considered, reasoned debate, then you'd all be welcomed and (bar the few who seem to hate CC - and there are some sadly who post on here) the debate could grow. You never know, you might even win some people over. But we don't get that do we? We get the hysterical prognostications of who's next in line if we don't smell the coffee/get heads out of the sand etc. It's all bordering on insults and that, instantaneously, loses so much of the potential respect.

MrB

Or, to pick up from where others have left off (no doubt in exasperation)

1) Prove it's a sham.
2) Prove it's funded/set up by BA and BALPA.
3) Prove the founders are management lackys.
4) As you're so interested in the funding of the PCCC, please enlighten us as to the final destinations of so much of the BASSA subs.

If you can provide verifiable evidence (not assumption) of any of the first three then I will gladly, and unreservedly, offer my apologies for doubting you. As for the latter, it would behove you greatly to see where your own money goes. Given that the word from one of the founders of the PCCC is that so far the princely sum of £150 has been spent so far, I'd suggest that there's little muck to be raked there.

MrB

PS, I'm off for a few weeks now so please don't think me rude if I'm not here to respond to your rebuttals.

The same rhetoric was successfully used to demonise CC89, same old strategy and scaremongering.

Maybe DH is waiting for the decision before he decides his strategy - if he has one.

Another question for CCCP, although I suppose it's rhetorical as he won't answer it and I already know the answer: "Have you, or any of your union reps, ever set eyes on the 1948 Redeployment Agreement?"

when BA takes over EasyJetYou don't have a good understanding of business finance do you?

My offer to you – Heathrow December 2010

If you are not a member of the union, I am offering you the opportunity to accept the assurances outlined in this letter.

Pay
I can confirm that there will be no changes to your incremental pay and you will continue to receive rises until you reach the top of the scale for your grade.

Basic Pay
I am also offering you a two year pay deal that guarantees you will receive a pay rise in 2011/12 and 2012/13.

• Year one 2011/12 the company will increase base pay based on December 2010 RPI and capped at 2.9%.

• Year two 2012/13 the company will increase base pay based on December 2011 RPI and capped at 3%

Your next pay review will be from February 2013.

The new fleet
The mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and bargaining rights will begin flying on 1 November 2010. There will be a separate negotiating body for the new fleet, which will not discuss your terms and conditions.

Assurances for you
I know that you have some questions about what the introduction of the new fleet means to you. To continue to demonstrate my commitment to you and to address these questions, I am offering you the following assurances.

• Your terms and conditions – I can assure you that your existing contractual terms will be maintained for the future, unless amended through negotiation.

• Part-time – I will continue to honour commitments to make part-time offers to all crew on existing lists. The offer will be on existing fleets, terms and conditions. Future part-time opportunities will continue to be available.

• Access to route network – I intend to ensure a fair and transparent distribution of routes to all fleets, based on commercial need.

• Access to aircraft type – I intend to deploy new aircraft based on commercial need across existing and new fleets. New aircraft will be introduced on a fair and transparent basis across all the company’s fleets. Your existing terms, conditions and fleet agreements will apply when new aircraft are operated on existing fleets. As new aircraft are introduced across all of the company’s fleets, you will be trained in order to receive the necessary licenses as required by regulation.


• Career structure and opportunities for current crew – The career structure for current crew within current fleets will continue on the basis of existing practice, unless amended through negotiation. I can confirm that where there are opportunities available, existing crew will be promoted on existing terms and conditions on current fleets.

• Honouring current and future agreements –The importance of honouring agreements is acknowledged, and the company is committed to working with current arrangements.

• Ability to transfer fleet/base on current terms and conditions – As with the current process, there is no guarantee of achieving a transfer. However, I am committed to continue with the current practice of transfers at Heathrow between Eurofleet and Worldwide, and to find a mechanism to aid limited transfers from Gatwick under current terms and conditions.

• Variable pay top up - To provide increased assurance in relation to security of earnings, the company will introduce a variable pay top up. For those Heathrow crew whose annual variable pay falls below the average earnings for their grade and fleet in 2009/10, the company will pay a top up lump sum every year after the launch of the new fleet. The amount to be topped up will be the difference between the variable earnings achieved by the crew member and the average amount for the grade and fleet, if there is a shortfall.

The average variable pay for grade and fleet will include variable pay elements listed in appendix I. Adjustments will be made for non flying time, including unpaid leave, sickness, line trainer duties and TU duties and activities.

The payment will be pro-rated for part-time crew.

The payment will only be made to those crew who do not participate in industrial action.


You will have the opportunity to apply for all roles on the new fleet if you choose. This will provide promotion opportunities for many current crew. All crew joining the new fleet will have separate terms and conditions.


People
It is important that there is no victimisation arising from the dispute and the company will work to ensure that any issues are settled in a mature and professional way. Where there are disciplinary or grievance cases, it is my intention that these will be resolved quickly. Where behaviour is found to be serious, any resulting action will be measured and proportionate.


Summary
This individual offer maintains your contractual rights at their current level. This offer, if you choose to accept it, does not reduce or extend them from where they are today.

This is a genuine offer made on behalf of the company. We are continuing to try and reach a collective agreement with Unite, with whom we will continue to collectively bargain. However, after such a long time unsuccessfully trying to reach agreement, I have decided to make this offer directly to you so that you can move on, with certainty and reassurance about your future with British Airways.


If you want to accept this individual offer, then please complete the attached form, and return it in the enclosed pre-paid envelope. Please do not return the whole document – this is for you to keep.

Sorry, but we don't want you back. You have made your bed; now lie in it.....with BF!!!

Setting aside the fact that I personally wouldn’t understand why anyone would want to remain in BASSA never mind re-join, and the union has also made it clear, a few times now, that various members are not wanted....

I assume there isn’t anything preventing an employee that has accepted the offer from joining post it’s signing?

Fly12345.

What you have reproduced is only a PROMISE!! It is not binding on BF or BA in anyway. They can change their minds tomorrow.

It is like the Mixed Fleet. There is NO AGREEMENT, only a framework. That is all you have.

What would you do if BA reneged on their deal with you? What could you do?

For instance many main crew on current contracts have applied for CSM on MF? Why? Because they don't believe there will be any promotion on "existing fleets and contracts".

If and when we ll discuss again.
The only threat to my job security and pension is your attitude and the attitude of your union.

The many BA flight crew who pontificate on this forum about cabin crew matters, only have their current pension provisions thankls to the Redeployment Agreement. Do you think they would sign a new offer and risk losing those gold plated pensions.

Forgive me cccp, but can you explain why I am now working another five years, paying approximately 5% more for less pension ALREADY?

CCCP,

This is what Bill said in his recent webchat about the redeployment agreement.

Hi ,

I want to be really clear, that contrary to what you may have heard from other sources, we have NOT terminated the redeployment agreement.

We have talked in the past to all Trade Unions across BA about working towards a modern approach to an agreement that is almost 40 years old, while continuing to try to avoid compulsory redundancies.

In IFCE we have adopted an entirely voluntary approach to any leavers through increasing part time offers and voluntary redundancy. This remains our approach.

There are currently no talks underway re updating the redeployment agreement

Thanks
Bill
__________________
Bill Francis
Head of InFlight Customer Experience (IFCE)

You are right in saying that this is something that will be revised in the future, None of us have a crystal ball. Not even you. So why not deal with these things when and if they happen instead of focusing on the what if's? Discussions about the Redeployment Agreement are company wide. We need a representative body to engage, challenge and influence BA along with the rest of the TUs involved. Not a body who relinquish themselves from the facilities agreements and support 'no negotiation'.

As for Union-busting? Shifting the power back to BA to enable it to manage the company... YES. Union-busting.. NO! More like a stripping of power. 13,500 crew still need to be represented.

I have also scoured each word of Bills proposal for the word Redeployment and anything that might be associated to it and cannot find a mention of it at all. Can you direct me to where you have seen it?

What do you think will be the outcome for yourselves CCCP?

Do you think that you will be able to squeeze more out of BA than the current offer?

What happens if the current offer gets withdrawn and all the high earning routes move to MF?

Do you think the majority of BASSA will ever be happy?

How can exisiting legacy crew represent MF contracted employees

Maybe there are MF crew in the PCCC and that will be a seperate body?

the whole point of the Mixed Fleet is that it is a non unionised workforce

Really? And that is written where? Or is it just another 'myth'.

Sorry folks, you can't have your cake and eat it! BASSA 'represent' 'Legacy' crew at Heathrow, new contract at LHR, Gatwick, LH and SH. All different contracts and agreements. You are trying to tell us the PCCC shouldn't represent MF?

Lets see.. PCCC have (we suspect) old contract crew sticking their necks out, risking all sorts of vile abuse and retribution from the BASSA diehards, wishing to genuinely represent MF.

BASSA are almost exclusively old contract CSD's and Pursers, milking the system, who have sanctioned abuse and torment of their 'own', and wreaked havoc on the daily lives of all crew and others besides, because they didn't want to have to push a trolly? :mad:

[quote=CCCP;6216725]For those crew who are now "enjoying" a 2.9% pay rise, I want to remind them that their exisitng T&C's are soley down to BASSA.

Dear oh dear WRONG again!!

The majority of current T & C's are down to pre 1989 BASSA (not the same thing as post 1989 BASSA) and Cabin Crew 89.

BASSA didn't even sign the Long Range Agreement or the 1997 restructuring which increased Pensionable pay for everyone!

Please get the facts straight.

ps and the only thing they did agree to was the post 1997 new entrant cabin crew pay scales (verified by the NSP minutes at the time):}

A talking shop with about as much clout as a Hamster Appreciation Club.


Just to clarify. You ARE talking about BASSA and their 'ground the airline' actions aren't you? No?

Haven't BASSA done well up to now. Upset their colleagues, annoyed their peers and even managed to upset their Union paymasters with their ill informed and ill thought out communications.

I do love the line '7% of the workforce 25% of the wages' from Crewforum. How imaginative. Show me an airline where it is any different. (Hint: SH Captains working for EasyJet are on the same, or depending upon base, better than BA SH Captains. Sorry to burst your bubble)

cccp,

Prey tell me what have BASSA helped achieve in the last two years?

Prey tell me what have BASSA helped achieve in the last two years?

One example: - EasyJet ad takes swipe at BA strike threat - Brand Republic News (http://www.brandrepublic.com/news/1052350/easyjet-ad-takes-swipe-ba-strike-threat/)

Union representation for MF is clearly an issue that BASSA either can't or won't get it's head round.

When BA stated that they wanted a separate negotiating body for mixed fleet they were saying they wanted MF to be represented by MF crew who would negotiate terms and conditions for themselves, not existing WW CSD's who make up the majority of BASSA rep numbers.

If MF crew decide they want union representation there is nothing BA can legally do to stop them. All they need is sufficient numbers to join. They could choose to join BASSA or the PCCC or even the 'Magic New Fleet Happy Crew Smiley Club'. As long as enough of them joined the company would need to recognise the union (regardless of whether or not it has the word 'union' in it's title...).

Arguing the the whole point of MF is for it to be non-union crew really is a waste of time. UK law does not permit employers to do this.

point. BA intends to make 3,000 redundancies through setting up the new MF of cabin crew.


Hmmmmmm. I must have missed when BA issued an HS1 form with the DSS?:confused:


Those of you who have signed new contracts will be Fast Tracked off of the 1948 Redeployment Agreement.
Given that the redeployment agreement affects the entire company. When did (BATUC?) all TU's company wide, agree to the proposed change?:confused:

BlueUpGood.

The point is that it is hypocritical for one group of employees who enjoy a certain standard of t&cs to negotiate t&cs for another group of employees on lesser t&cs. Unless the first group wish to raise the second groups t&cs to their level - which will not happen at BA because it would negate the need for mixed fleet, and defeat the object of mixed fleet.

If PCCC is to undertake collective bargainig rights for mixed fleet, then it will need identifiable mixed fleet reps for BA to converse with, likewise for a hugely expanded PCCC on legacy fleets. Come negotiation time BA will not discuss issues on an online annoymous forum with fourty percentage worth of differing views. That defeats the object of collective bargainig. To be credible the PCCC needs to be identifiable and accountable.

And it will be, but it doesn't have to be right now. BASSA (old contract) have been negotiating for new contract LHR and LGW for years, with no realistic intent of achieving old contract levels for any of them. Trying to claim the PCCC can't represent new fleet because of some sort of moral difficulty is baloney.

IMHO The PCCC would be very well advised to keep things relatively low key until the dispute is over. Why do you think BASSA are trying to goad them into going public?

When this dispute is well and truly over, then the PCCC will know the landscape of future industrial relations, and will be best able to maximise on the catastrophic self destruction BASSA has wrought upon itself. This is a long game, and the PCCC already seem to have a sense of perspective that BASSA don't.

It's not about today, or tomorrow, but about cabin crew being represented by intelligent realists, who live and work in the real world, and who can work with the people who pay our wages for the mutual benefit of both company and employee. It's a symbiotic relationship - without BA there is no cabin crew, something BASSA are hell bent on disproving, despite Mr Darwin's best efforts.

They may succeed and seize the moment, they may not. I sincerely hope they do.

All IMHO.

The point is that it is hypocritical for one group of employees who enjoy a certain standard of t&cs to negotiate t&cs for another group of employees on lesser t&cs.

What, you mean BASSA? LH CSD's who hardly ever fly, creaming off the subs for 'union days' standing idly by while the regions get closed down and LGW gets squeezed and squeezed?! Come off it!! It's about integrity. Whether it's MP's or unions or anyone else who stands to represent others, of course one can represent a group of which you are not a member if you are chosen to do so. Show a lack of integrity, then sooner or later, you will be found out.

So, would any of the BASSA adherents here like to tell the public at large if their committee has received any ..... [cough] ..... legal 'information' in the last few days which has given them cause to ......[cough, cough] ..... perhaps seriously rethink their position? Just wondering .................. :cool:

Bit confused by the references to BATUC negotiating the Redeployment agreement.

BATUC (British Airways Trade Union Council) isn't a negotiating body. It is a talking shop. The BA board including Willie give a report back to representatives from all departments on BA on the current state of the business etc.

The TU's raise concerns directly to them in return but they do not negotate anything.

The Forum which consists of Full Time Officers of the unions were talking to BA re the Redeployment Agreement but I dont think it being discussed at this time.

Just to make it clear, I do not believe Abbey Road is referring to me!

Correct! :ok:

Yellow pen.

Bassa negotiated for t&cs which directly affect them and those they represent. The PCCC on legacy fleets negotiating t&cs for mixed fleet is very different - it doesn't affect them, hence hypocrisy.

BlueUpGood.

The PCCC, if they are to be taken as credible should be visibly shaping the industrial relations landscape, not lurking like looters after a battle. Perhaps you know something about the PCCC founders that I do not, I do not know who the hell they are so I cannot comment on whether they are intelligent realists or not. They could be a bunch of egotistical glory chasers for all I, and the vast majority know.

PCCC, show yourselves, make your point and let us see if you are worth joining or not. I suspect the truth is that you are not worth joining, I suspect the truth is disappointing.

Abbey Rd,

I'm not a bassa adherent, but I would suggest your question is pointless if not stupid.

I would imagine the bassa leadership are ensuring that the 't' and the 'i' are crossed and dotted. Quite obviously BA play every legal card they can at every opportunity. Bassa are perhaps being cautious of BA's responce to any announcement.

Therefore the answer you seek will come from the bassa leadership when they have what they require. Perhaps you should email them.

But, PC767, what could be worse than the representation that cabin crew have at present?

Methinks that Abbey Road has a little inside info to share!

PC 767

If that line of argument was true, then as no one from BASSA is MF then should they negotiate on behalf of MF that would be hypocrisy!!!

More importantly as DH is no longer an employee of BA how can he have any legitimate input into any negotiation/discussion relating to current employees?

Jazzy

I can assure you that the bassa branch accounts are far from clean.

The branch sec runs it like his own personal fiefdom.

I'm sure the Daily Mail has the story ready to print;)


BASSAwitch!

Could you please back up this statement issued by you earlier?

Bassa negotiated for t&cs which directly affect them and those they represent. The PCCC on legacy fleets negotiating t&cs for mixed fleet is very different - it doesn't affect them, hence hypocrisy.Right, so BASSA never sold off everyone outside of Fortress Heathrow, to keep their own skins safe? I wonder if, for example, Gatwick crew feel reprresented by the dwellers of BASSA's big ivory tower? Hypocrisy from BASSA. Big time!

I'm not a bassa adherent, but I would suggest your question is pointless if not stupid.Pointless? Oh, I don't think so. I wonder how long it will be before BASSA find a way of telling the world of the corner they have now found themselves in. Looking forward to it, whenever it comes, however it comes. It will be worth the comedy value alone. :D

Methinks that Abbey Road has a little inside info to share!I couldn't possibly comment further! It will have to come from the Witches Coven itself, otherwise it will be considered "propaganda lies" or "evil untruths" or even "PCCC rumour-mongering" or ...... (you get the picture). BASSA will have to say something, eventually. :cool:

Whatever Abbey Road is hinting at may explain why there has been absolutely no communication or action from BASSA so far, 12 days into the 28 day period. Surely they can't have totally screwed it up again?

edited to say "silly me, of course they could have!":rolleyes:

I would imagine the bassa leadership are ensuring that the 't' and the 'i' are crossed and dotted.:) Why is there no smiley rolling around laughing?
http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2F209.85.48.8%2F1889%2F52%2Femo%2FPMSL.gif&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fprivate.php%3Fdo%3Dshowpm%26pmid%3D1398416Now there is, thanks to green granite!

The Bassa V LGW debate has been done before. To recap, bassa suggested a no vote, LGW crew voted in favour of SFG.

BA committed to closing the regions, cabin crew, pilots, engineers, managers, ground staff et al. Bassa cannot be responsible for the closure, what they did do though was negotiate the best package possible for cabin crew to re-locate.

As far as I am bassa are not negotiating for mixed fleet so that point is also irrelevant.

I will repeat my consideration, and it is only that, in another way. Would I want somebody from mixed fleet to be negotiating my t&cs on 'legacy' fleet, t&cs which will not affect them. No.

What is wrong with my comment ottergirl. From either side of the fence we know that bassa leadership have cocked up before. Just perhaps they are determined not to make the same mistakes repeatedly.

PC767
Whichever union umbrella the Mixed Fleet crew decide to opt for, I imagine they would elect their own reps who would represent them at their own NSP; that could be Unite, GMB, or an independant. BF is on record as saying he expects they will do just that once they have a big enough community to merit it.

Our posts crossed. It was a reaction to what Abbey Road was hinting at that triggered my amusement. BASSA have not been known for their thoroughness in dotting or crossing any letters! Sounds as though there could be another upsetting revelation to come and believe it or not, I don't take that much pleasure in cabin crew being ridiculed in the national press!

Yes, but the reps must be names and not an anonymous forum.

There is no credibility where the reps remain unidentified and unaccountable.

Just a thought but ......

As the PCCC is in fledgling form and not taking money off of members at the moment then they are, surely, a private group of people who wish to place themselves in the position of offering rational representation to thos who wish it.

As they have, in effect, no income the they don't have to produce figures, say where monies originated or produce any other paperwork.

When they start to represent employees as a recognised negotiating body within BA and start taking subs then they will be required to keep accounts. Until then they have no such requirement and can release information as and when they wish.

Just a thought.

Hi pc767,

You make a good go at putting across a different side of the coin, so to speak.

However, you and I have both seen what Mr DH does publicly to those that disagree with him so I believe it to be in the best interests of PCCC, and in the worst interests of Bassa, for them to remain anonymous until the PCCC choose to declare who they are.

Just goes to show, a faceless and nameless committee have already coaxed over 2,000 members away from Bassa. That shows exactly how useless and worthless Bassa have proved themselves to be!

As for people representing Crew on other fleets; Mr DH was shorthaul so that would make all votes from Longhaul members invalid, would it?

PCCC is a new Union representing ALL fleets, ask anyone.

Just thought I'd add my tuppence-worth...

As I understand it "hypocrisy" is saying one thing and doing another, or pretending to be one thing when you are another. Representing a group of whom you are not a member does not fit this definition unless you claim to be a member of the group. As already pointed out, many people represent people even though they are not one of them. Len McClusky is not Cabin Crew, but he represents about 10,000 of them apparently. Neither is DH, but he is well supported as a representative of BASSA members. This does not make them hypocrites; neither would the PCCC be if they reresented Mixed Fleet.

The PCCC, as far as I can make out (and I am registered as a member) is not what I would call a "union". It is a bunch of people with similar interests, many of whom would like to build the membership up so that one day it can become a union. No one can blame the founders for not "going public" as we all know the vitriol which will be aimed against them by the more militant members of BASSA - vitriol which could make their lives much more difficult. I am sure they one day hope to become a union and I am sure they are aware that they will have to publish who they are well before that happens; but for now, whilst they do not need to ask for subscriptions, why not let them work anonymously if they so wish? After all, the PCCC is currently simply a group of like-minded people with a website and a forum.

M

So, would any of the BASSA adherents here like to tell the public at large if their committee has received any ..... [cough] ..... legal 'information' in the last few days which has given them cause to ......[cough, cough] ..... perhaps seriously rethink their position? Just wondering ..................!


The CSD (a Bassa Rep) on my last trip said something similar. It was an absolutely brilliant trip, just like the good old days even two of the pilots came out! The CSD told tales of in-fighting amongst the reps which had split them into two groups due to upset at DH's blatant scorched earth policy.

There is also dissatisfaction at the state of the membership records apparently a 'significant' number of ballot forms were sent to non-members, and the person responsible for the upkeep of the records despite being paid handsomely from the Bassa funds has been sub-contracting the work out to another crew member.

The last little gem the CSD dropped was the advice from the queen's counsel wasn't quite what they had wanted to hear!

Take all this post with a pinch of salt - it was bar talk, but I always believe there is no smoke without fire.

I'm sorry, I know this has nothing to do with this thread, but Far-Ted, I just love your user name!

The fact that Bassa will be advised against IA from the legal team will come as no surprise to anyone. So, what will happen now? There will be blood from the active militants, who, having been whipped up to an emotional frenzy, crave another strike to let BA know 'they're not going to be messed with' - even if they're not sure what benefit it will bring them.
P767, the height of hypocrisy is, in my view, where a leader of a union, ie a representative of a work force, who is no longer a member of said workforce, is allowed to remain in office. Can you not see there could be a conflict of interest? Can you not see what an invidious situation that puts all the strike advocates in? Lambs to the slaughter comes to mind.
However, if Bassa are indeed advised there can be no legal/protected strike action, it will be very interesting to see what the next move in all this will be? Any views anyone?

Oh yes, and by the way, despite a demand to know the ins and outs of the PCCC, I note there has STILL been no response regarding the allocation of subs/funds received from the, albeit dwindling, Bassa membership! Hmm?!

However, if Bassa are indeed advised there can be no legal/protected strike action, it will be very interesting to see what the next move in all this will be? Any views anyone?

Let's see....

1. More union subs spent hiring Bedfont and paying the burger vans
2. Spleen vented at flight crew in frustration (nearest easy target)
3. Ditto
4. Ditto
5. Ditto....................................

Quote:
Originally Posted by BASSAwitch
I can assure you that the bassa branch accounts are far from clean.

The branch sec runs it like his own personal fiefdom.

I'm sure the Daily Mail has the story ready to printhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

BASSAwitch!

Could you please back up this statement issued by you earlier?From a previous position that I held for 20 months - unless you have proof of your statement above - you have left yourself wide open to litigation.

This is character assasination pure and simple and no matter what side of the fence you sit on this is simply outrageous.

As mentioned in previous postings - I have never worked in such a dreadful atmosphere where the Flight Crew are full of such hatred - this cannot be good for either side.

Why would any sane person be surprised to hear that the latest Bassa ballot may have legal flaws in it?

They (Unite) were informed at every opportunity about balloting non members the first time around. Mr DH and Co just lapped it all up, went with it regardlessly, and then blamed it all on everyone else.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

How could they possibly expect us all to continue supporting, without questioning, such idiocities. ? Anyone that dared to question any of it; well we all know how Mr DH dealt with them.

RIP Bassa, it was nice knowing you but this was Industrial Suicide in such a destructive kamikaze fashion that I cannot hold any sympathy.

I recall seeing a Bassa Newsletter stating that those who stood by and did nothing were as guilty as the perpetrators of the injustices. Well, not one single Bassa/Amicus Rep stood up to Mr DH or Ms LM publically, so they shall fall under the same axe.

My relationship with Bassa lasted longer than my marriage, and I have no regrets even though they both ended up in similar fashion.

Bassa represented us very well in the past; and for that we are all truly grateful. Even Mr DH had a good decade or so in charge. However, the actions and misguidance of Unite and Bassa over the last two years have been unforgiveable and I believe my relationship with them is damged beyond repair.

I've moved on, with the PCCC. It might work, it might not. But I am not going back to that abusive and intolerant relationship from whence I came.

Far Ted.

Trip so good that the pilots announced they were gay!! Jeez, progress is moving a little too fast for my conservative liking!

Boom Boom!!

Far Ted.

The post you highlight is quite clearly a wind up. I believe the suggested target has resigned from BA to join a high ranking legal firm, albeit in what capacity I do not know.

From a previous position that I held for 20 months - unless you have proof of your statement above - you have left yourself wide open to litigation.I'm sure they're terrified! DH would have to sue in a civil court for libel and prove the claim is false. Even if he did, what possible damages could he claim?

As mentioned in previous postings - I have never worked in such a dreadful atmosphere where the Flight Crew are full of such hatred - this cannot be good for either side.You really do attach too much credibility to your dispute. The only hatred around is that of the extreme militants towards their favourite bogeymen. Most flight crew, non-strikers and striking cabin crew are getting on with the job in a perfectly civilised fashion. Only the self-segregating BASSAmentalists believe that they have created an unbridgeable divide. One only has to look at the BASSA forum annd see how much time they spend talking about BALPA and pilots to see that they have long since lost touch with the realities of the dispute and instead have been revelling in their own deep-rooted prejudices. It's all irrelevant now anyway. The leak machine is in full swing and everybody knows there's bad news in the pipeline for BASSA. The dispute is lost, the more informed members know it and for those for whom the humiliation is too great, the great wide world of employment beyond BA awaits. Tomorrow may finally bring the day that BA can call VB day - 'Victory over BASSA'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pouletmore
I was told earlier today that the dispute is over. Our reps have made a mess of this latest ballot too and I've had enough. Legal advice is going against us and we have no where left to go. I've supported my union unwaveringly for 2 years but enough is enough. I don't want another ballot and I don't want to fight any more.

You lot will no doubt crow about how right you were but you know what? I did what my heart and my head told me was right. I have my principles and unlike you crew haters I take no pleasure in seeing people suffer- especially my hard working crew colleagues.

I was in this battle to win and we haven't so as I'm no hypocrite I've resigned from the union and from the company. Good luck to you all but for me the humiliation is too much to stomach. But I won't hang around and slag off the union or the reps. They did their best but were outwitted by a stronger adversary.

I don't want to be part of a company that despises it's front line staff and I don't want to break bread with scabs (crew or pilots).

So I'm outta here. My first and last post on this forum.

This post needs highlighting !

This poster I believe is an extremely passionate Bassa supporter and very vocal on the Bassa forum, and is known to be close the Bassa leadership.

Despite sitting on the opposite side of the fence I'm sorry to see you go.

Far Ted

You have I believe been "mugged off" - yhis is another of your "colleagues" posting as the person you think it is.

The person may well be leaving BA - but I know for a fact has posted on this forum in umpteen occasions - and for your infor she most certainly is not "close" to the BASSA leadership. She has her own views and opinions and is often at odds with BASSA - the post is a work of fiction

Quote:
From a previous position that I held for 20 months - unless you have proof of your statement above - you have left yourself wide open to litigation.
I'm sure they're terrified! DH would have to sue in a civil court for libel and prove the claim is false. Even if he did, what possible damages could he claim?

Quote:
As mentioned in previous postings - I have never worked in such a dreadful atmosphere where the Flight Crew are full of such hatred - this cannot be good for either side.
You really do attach too much credibility to your dispute. The only hatred around is that of the extreme militants towards their favourite bogeymen. Most flight crew, non-strikers and striking cabin crew are getting on with the job in a perfectly civilised fashion. Only the self-segregating BASSAmentalists believe that they have created an unbridgeable divide. One only has to look at the BASSA forum annd see how much time they spend talking about BALPA and pilots to see that they have long since lost touch with the realities of the dispute and instead have been revelling in their own deep-rooted prejudices. It's all irrelevant now anyway. The leak machine is in full swing and everybody knows there's bad news in the pipeline for BASSA. The dispute is lost, the more informed members know it and for those for whom the humiliation is too great, the great wide world of employment beyond BA awaits. Tomorrow may finally bring the day that BA can call VB day - 'Victory over BASSA'.

As I said in my post - what a nasty group of co-workers I have found myself working with especially many who post on here.

Spot on Far-Ted

MFCREW - you seem to be somewhat riled up my assertion that everyone else is getting on fine. Really, we are. I've had some very pleasant trips this year, socialising with some great crew, strikers and non-strikers alike. Your anger is not our problem. BA is a far more harmonious company than you can imagine if only you could break out of the groupthink which has imprisoned you all. The dispute is over. That's the reality. I shan't be crowing about it on board, but the militant element are going to have to come to terms with it and decide whether they can stomach remaining at BA because if there is one thing this dispute has ensured it's that people are no longer going to tolerate militant, stroppy nonsense on board the aircraft.

MFCREW - you seem to be somewhat riled up my assertion that everyone else is getting on fine. How on earth can you assume I am riled? Which I am not - I just have an opinion.

Firstly I'm not in BASSA so have no grudge to bear either way.

Secondly I was directed to this forum a few weeks ago to gauge whats going on in BA.

To be honest on this forum all I have ever witnessed is a constant barrage of anti BASSA this, anti Bassamilitant that - DH is a crook now apparently!!!

As someone with no vested interest I find it amazing how you, as pilots (the majority on here) feel it acceptable to belittle, berate and abuse for want of a better word "BASSA" members - arent these the people that you work with on a daily basis?

It is quite staggering for someone like myself who has no vested interest to see the pure vitriolic hatred that soem people on here put forward - whats even more amusing is because you are all "tuned-in" to being anti BASSA - you cannot even see that you are now becoming just as bad as those who post on other forums with an opposite viewpoint.

Quote:
As I said in my post - what a nasty group of co-workers I have found myself working with especially many who post on here.
You're right, the BASSA junta are a pretty unlikeable bunch, aren't they?

Mr Benoulli has just vaildated my point - for which I thank him

Having conversed with one of the mods over what is acceptable and not re BASSA/BALPA the following post that was removed is now approved.

Having spoken at length to my good friend high up in BALPA I would like to clarify a few "facts" for the BASSA-ites so obsessed with this site

1. BA are not recruiting cruise pilots on £17k a year. All new entrant pilots are for First Officer positions on the 737,767 and A320 on existing terms and conditions.

2. Jim McAuslan is not and will not be resigning. Barber's comments were politically motivated and they actually get on very well. Barber's statement was agreed with Jim the day before

3. BALPA really couldn't care less if they are in the TUC or not. In fact not being in will save them a packet.

4. If BALPA leave the TUC they will not cease to be a union (the stupidity is breathtaking).

5. Members are not leaving BALPA in droves. The BA section has lost about 5 members over this dispute, but recently gained about 12 so actually they are better off than a year ago.

6. BALPA has not signed a "no strike clause". Merely the delivery of shares as part of the BP deal is dependent on not only profit margins but harmonious industrial relations.

7. EU FTL's have not sneaked up like a "pantomime villian". BALPA, the ECA and many other Eurpoean Members of the ECA have been working and lobbying for years and this is merely the next phase.

8. Neither flight nor cabin crew will be necessarily able to rely on their industrial agreements to protect from inceased FTL's. If BALPA lose, so cabin crew hours will be changed. And its not just hours, things like min time in hotel down to 71/2 hours. If BASSA had any integrity they would be keeping you informed of this.

9. The holiday pay claim, if successful by BALPA, will benefit cabin crew more but Unite have not contributed one penny to the cost of the action.

10. BALPA are not ostracised (sp) by other pilot unions. BALPA are the largest member of the ECA (Eurpoean Cockpit Association)and well respected. The BA section of BALPA is the second largest in the OCCC (one world coalition and has a director of this group) and has great relations with the Americans (APA), Spanish (SEPLA) and all the others. BALPA is also a major player in IFALPA. In fact my source tells me relations with the Americans and Spanish pilots are at an all time high.

Would any of the obssessed ones care to reproduce this?

Dunc?


No? Thought not.

Time is up guys
im afraid you have LOST
you fought well
you made a good show
you did what you thought was right
but where is your strike date?
you wont get one, its all over, time to lay down
the battle has been lost..........it really is all over

Look at what was written to the BASSA members the otherday
a few words that spoke millions
and that was "settling the dispute would mean BAs worst case scenario, BASSA could survive if that was to happen and regroup and live to fight another day"

can you not see it
read inbetween the words, IT IS FINISHED!

MFCREW:

I have never worked in such a dreadful atmosphere where the Cabin Crew are full of such hatred - this cannot be good for either side.

It works both ways. The situation at LHR is dysfunctional at best, and positively dangerous at worst.

Not every pilot, or every cabin crew member is part of the lunatic fringe. It is just that the lunatic fringe are the people who spend there lives posting vitriol, ad-nauseum, on internet forums.

Not every pilot, or every cabin crew member is part of the lunatic fringe. It is just that the lunatic fringe are the people who spend there lives posting vitriol, ad-nauseum, on internet forums.

Absolutely agree - that was the point I was trying to make - if you look at Forums you will usually find there is a vocal minority who seem to delight in belittling and berating others - that goes for both sides.

Guys,
Len McCluskey is being interviewed on Radio5live - at 10am..Its the Victoria Derbyshire show I think.

Apparently there are other guests from other Unions and organisations who might give Mr McCluskey a run for his money.. Could be interesting.

The simple fact of this dispute is that the bulk of this company is fed up with the attitude and behaviours of bassa. It is putting everyones future at risk, hence the number of unite members volunteering to be CC.

From the 000's of vols there will be a very small group who always had a desire to be crew and this gives them the opportunity to try the lifestyle, albeit without the allowances and MBT's that go along with it. The rest are doing it for 2 reasons:
1. they want to safeguard their own future.
2. bassa members appear unbending and unwilling to answer any questions of why they are taking this action, other than reciting the mantra of the 'oppressed'.

This minority of CC need to open their eyes and see what is changing in the rest of BA.

MFCREW,

A little reasoning if I may and the moderators allow as it talks both about FC and CC.

Sadly it seems that Pilots have become the 'easy' target for the BASSA and CF forums as the purveyours of all evil and those directly responsble for prolonging the BASSA action and causing their ultimate demise.

I for one have not seen the 'pure hatred' and the 'awful conditions' you seem to portray over the past year. Please accept that, if they exist, then it is in a minute section of the thousands of flights a year conducted by BA and thus, statistically, you could end up wth having people you just don't like on the crew irrespective of their Unionistic views.

Many, many, many of us from the other side of the door attended exhaustive economic briefings held both by BA (Keith Williams, not Willie Walsh), our Association and Price Waterhouse Coopers as to the state of the economy, the company, the industry and the country prior to making any decision on our cost savings obligations. At the same time actions were going on over FTL changes within EASA (Which affect all flying crews), Holiday pay (Including CC) and negotiations with the Inland Revenue over down route tax burdens (On which BASSA were briefed but failed to act). After gathering all of that information together there were some members who felt that it was right at the time to protect a fragile operating position and cost base from ill thought out, reactive, cognitive IA from BASSA. Not all who were VCC were Union members, many just decided that the BASSA action was, at the time, inappropriate.

BASSA, at the time, concentrated, rightly or wrongly, on minimising compulsory redundancies. The concentrated (argued) on this for so long and so hard that they failed to achieve headway on anything else. They refused to look at the confidential business documents, refused to believe the PwC independant analysis, refused to believe what the other Unions were advising them and, thus, ended up failing to meet their cost savings obligations and achieved imposition. Was this really adequate representation?

Now the dispute has entered a long winded drawn out phase and, as usual, BASSA lashes out against those who work in the aircraft with you. Unfairly. There is no hatred just astonishment at how badly BASSA has represented its members. Amazement at how the BASSA board think that they can be the only ones who deserve to operate with the same conditions set down in the 1980's and refuse any change.

I have found that the mood over VCC has subtely changed over the past year. We are no longer in a dangerous position financially and thus many FC feel that VCC would be inappropriate given the cirrent circumstances. Sadly all this achieves is making the lies and vitriol from BASSA all the more disproportionate.

I have said it a few times on the other thread, but I would like to say it again here. BA were in a fight for survival. BA brought about the staffing level changes it desired and many have mused that those changes were all that were needed to deliver the savings required.

Unite (or branches of) did not believe that there was this epic battle to remain in business and took action against the changes that were unilaterally introduced. That action came at a cost of hundreds of thousands of passengers unable to fly through the disruption and the contingency costs around flying a mostly unaffected operation. That would have come at a significant cost.

Now what has been greater so far, the cost of the action, or the saving from the headcount reduction? New crew are being recruited, but there has been no further reduction in headcount, so has the actual cost of the cabin crew department gone up in real terms?

BA/IAG now appear to be into profit again, albeit not big profits. Bassa offered a temporary fix to what it believed to be a temporary problem, but I accept the discrepancy in figures in the suggested savings. Bassa did not have an obligation to make the savings from its own area; just make bigger ones from all other areas.

It is all pointless speculation on my behalf anyway, because the new contract is in place for both existing staff and new recruits and going on strike again is most definitely not going to change that.

Wirbelsturm,

Excellent post.

It is always good to be reminded of the FACTS, especially when presented clearly, after so long swimming through muddy waters.

Like you I have not experienced any open hostility in the last year. That said, it is very evident that everyone is very guarded. guarded in what they say and in what they do.

Very few people are willing to discuss the issues, under the misguided view that any expression of a different view will result in some kind of disciplinery action. I believe this is very unhealthy as there is now a mass of ill-informed and festering ideas. On the occasions that crew have talked it has been refreshing when people have expressed their views and realised that it was perfectly acceptable to discuss the matter like adults.

If the rumours are to be believed (regarding a major split of views by bassa reps) maybe common sense will prevail after all. As has been stated many times, this dispute cannot be resolved when the bitter meglomaniac DH is involved, nor when LM keeps spouting!

Even if the 'moderate' (is there such a thing) bassa reps start to hold sway, it will still be important that BA are seen to have negated the excessive influence that bassa has wealded over the cabin crew community.

An illuminating snippet from Business Traveller - corporate travel information, city guides, flight reservations... - Business Traveller (http://www.businesstraveller.com) -VintageKrug - 02/02/2011 07:51 GMT

To be fair to BASSA they have 28 days to announce IA after the ballot date, so could keep us waiting until mid Feb.

However, it appears BASSA received some very uncomfortable legal advice from Unite over the weekend.

Legal advice apparently suggests that:

1. The ballot was flawed (a material number on non-BASSA members ballotted, and membership records in disarray, subcontracted out by the BASSA rep tasked with - and paid for - maintaining those records).

2. Any action would be "unprotected" for cabin crew, as evidence on BASSA's own site clearly identified the current action with previous action. BASSA has never informed its membership of the risks of unprotected action.

3. Unite itself could potentially be held liable for costs incurred by BA during the dispute....a significant sum and one which could bankrupt Unite as its finances are not as healthy as they once were.

There are also concerns elsewhere that there is no transparency as to how BASSA's income has been accounted for; with over £2m annual dues being received by BASSA at its high point, this should be of significant concern to BASSA members.

Radio 5 at 10am seems to be holding an interview which may be of interest.

In order to settle, there would have to be a negotiated settlement, and it may well be the case that further talks with Unite, in light of this legal advice, have forced a settlement.

Well founded speculation at this point, but you should ask the nurse to keep the Day Room telly tuned to Sky News today!

This dispute does indeed seem to be entering its final days.Len was less than inspiring on Radio 5 today! He was even repeatedly referring to the PCCC as the "PCC". If he can't remember basic details like that, then he is unlikely to be able to grasp much else.

As far as I am bassa are not negotiating for mixed fleet so that point is also irrelevant.



Isn't Mixed Fleet Ts and Cs on BASSAs mandate to strike? I'm sure something regarding Mixed Fleet is.

Have to say that Radio 5 political debate isn't my thing and it was boring stuff for the most part so I didn't hear the entire interview what with child supervision as well as housework and Jeremy Kyle (thank God for ITV 2 +1).

Bassa couldn't even spell McLuskey on their newsletter encouraging us to vote for him (came in with 17% of the electorate).

Len McLuskey can't even read out "PCCC" so he really hasn't done much more studying and reading up than I did for Physics O Level.

You know what? Go on strike, believe the usual tripe that you are "protected" and your Staff Travel will be "back in 5 minutes" and that you are a "United Majority" blah, blah, blah. Nobody cares !

We have never heard from one single Rep from Bassa , at any time in the last two years, disagreeing in any shape or form with either of the Bassa leaders or any of the Unite Secretaries even though they constantly contradicted each other and oneself.

I have never worked in such a dreadful atmosphere

With all due respect, how long have you worked for BA? Are you Mixed Fleet? Have you ever been on another fleet?

The reason I ask is because the dreadful atmosphere (which I am pleased to say is lifting) has mostly been created by militant individuals who can't respect the fact that other people might have a different opinion.

Individuals have been named and shamed publicly, threats to kidnap their children, cars scratched, frozen out by the rest of the crew, to name but a few.

Don't get me wrong, there are guilty parties in both camps but to point the blame solely at the flight crew is, in my opinion, wrong.

How many CC have been sacked or suspended for bullying and harassment compared to individuals in other areas in relation to this dispute?

1. The ballot was flawed (a material number on non-BASSA members ballotted, and membership records in disarray, subcontracted out by the BASSA rep tasked with - and paid for - maintaining those records).


More naming and shaming for DH to do, the membership will love hearing about that individual! Please tell me this doesn't mean we have to suffer another ballot!

it will still be important that BA are seen to have negated the excessive influence that bassa has wealded over the cabin crew community.

This is most of the problem. We (the Cabin Crew) should be wealding influence over the union not vice versa - tail has been wagging dog!

As I said in my post - what a nasty group of co-workers I have found myself working with especially many who post on here.
If you're on the new fleet then you haven't worked with most of us on here, we're particularly lovely on Eurofleet believe me. I also find it hard to believe that your co-workers on Mixed fleet are nasty, they've only just got here and the ones I've met have been charming. Give us some examples of nastiness and what/who you mean.

Len McCluskey on BBC Radio 5 today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00y2098/Victoria_Derbyshire_02_02_2011/ (Victoria Derbyshire)

A few interesting points made by Len:

1. Refusing to answer PCCC's "John" about what the strikes have achieved.

2. Making foundless accusations about the PCCC being set up my BA managers. No proof offered of this but he contradicts this claim by saying "we've been trying to find out who they are" and "we don't know who they are". Er, how do you KNOW they're BA lackeys then Len?

3. Claiming that 78% of Cabin Crew voted to strike. That'll be 78% of returned papers then....or 5751 strike votes from 13,000 crew or 44% eh Len?

4. 39m20s in Len acknowledges that there may be a slight hitch (possibly explaining why no strike dates called?) as BA have challenged the legality of their ballot...again. :ugh: Groundhog Strike!

5. Calling for vague resolutions to the dispute such as respect (or words to that effect) but basically calling for none of the imposed changes (crew complements, Mixed Fleet etc) to be removed. So what ARE you striking over Len? What will make this all go away? I don't think he had a clue.

6. Saying that bullying and intimidation were rife within BA (all of it, not just cabin crew) but hurling false accusations (which would invite bullying) at PCCC's John and refusing to accept that a pilot could ever be bullied, harassed or intimidated by a cabin crew member (because we're mainly women!?!?). So it's only bullying and harassment when it's direct at his minions...or something.

BA released this statement and documents on 28 January 2011.

"If you took strike action during 2010 you may have been part of a collective or individual complaint about the removal of staff travel and pay deductions for those who did not report for duty during a strike period.

"Our response to Unite has already been made available to the union to share with you."

A revised formal offer to Unite
http://freepdfhosting.com/fb0fde4f72.pdf

Complaints about withdrawal of pay and staff travel relating to sickness
http://freepdfhosting.com/3382e93952.pdf

Complaints regarding withdrawal staff travel and pay
http://freepdfhosting.com/7a5b9147a5.pdf

The IFCE re-organisation has been announced. Some changes in terms of BF's direct reports at LHR.

Head of Worldwide Fleet is new to IFCE from elsewhere within BA.

The Head of Mixed Fleet has now also got Eurofleet and VCC in her remit. It has been stressed that although there is one manager running both Mixed Fleet and Eurofleet, the two are not being combined.


(Views above are my own and not those of my employer)

Another change is that Mike Grimes is Head of IFCE Gatwick Fleet and reports to Silla Maizey (Managing Director of Gatwick). So, responsibility for the fleets is now split: Worlwide Fleet, Eurofleet, Mixed Fleet and VCC with Bill Francis at LHR, Gatwick Fleet with Grimes at LGW.

COURT 22
Before MR JUSTICE LANGSTAFF
Thursday, 3rd February 2011
TLQ/10/1012 British Airways Plc v Unite The Union

At work today my manager told me that Bassa had taken advise from Queens Counsel because Willie Walsh had sent them a letter questioning the linking in the ballot with issues in the previous strike. All our managers were told that the strike is unlikely to go ahead but that if Bassa re-ballot the earliest strike would be April.

What amazes me, the most, is that after making such a mess of the ballot in the past, that Bassa or Unite did not check out Queens Counsel advise before sending out the ballots!!

If I were a Bassa member I would be furious.

BA denies legal challenge to latest Unite ballot - www.travelweekly.co.uk (http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2011/02/03/36002/ba-denies-legal-challenge-to-latest-unite-ballot.html)

See the latest articles in . LATEST NEWS UPDATES (http://uniteba.com/LATESTNEWSUPDATES.html).

If the planned industrial action is delared null and void then the company risks further action in the run up to the summer-either way not good for forward bookings,employee moral and shareholders.

Time to get round the table and talk ?

Not if the ballot is declared illegal because of it being a continuation of previous industrial action... In this case I don't think there would be anything Unite could do about it. Well, they could call for unprotected industrial action, but I think we can all see where that would go...

If the ballot is declared illegal because of ballot irregularities (like someone I know getting 2 ballots sent to her even though she is no longer a BASSA member :ugh:), that's a different story.

It is clear that The Professional Cabin Crew Council (PCCC) is here to stay and will surely be a force in the coming years.

The council/union is referred to as "PCCC"?

Len McCluskey had a problem with it yesterday on Radio5Live and kept referring to the "PCC" instead of the "PCCC". I don't agree with Len on most issues but on this point I do think that there is perhaps one too many C's.

Obviously keep the official title of Professional Cabin Crew Council and use something more intuitive as an identity. "PC3" rolls off the tongue a bit better but what do I know about PR darling! Any other suggestions?

As an aside, some seriously good factual posters on here and have to say that unless you can support your post with hard verifiable facts then you are likely to be seriously examined and probably found lacking by the core of this forum. This is taken by some as criticism, I have read and re-read all of the posts and can assure you that in my opinion it is the former.

I'll get my coat.

If the planned industrial action is delared null and void then the company risks further action in the run up to the summer-either way not good for forward bookings,employee moral and shareholders.

Time to get round the table and talk ?

I agree that the uncertainty around all of this is and has not been good for morale, customer confidence and moving forward with the business.

I also agree that Unite needs to make an appearance at the table - and soon. But with only 43% of the crew community actively voting "yes" for a strike (less than last time and even less than the time before) it would appear that silence and delaying tactics are all they have left to fight with.

If they need to hold (yet) another ballot, my bet is that the "yes" vote will be even lower.

Its time for the views of the no voters / abstainers / non-union members to prevail within the crew community, and for dissidence to become the exception, rather than the rule.

The council/union is referred to as "PCCC"?

Len McCluskey had a problem with it yesterday on Radio5Live and kept referring to the "PCC" instead of the "PCCC". I don't agree with Len on most issues but on this point I do think that there is perhaps one too many C's.

You may have a point there.... but if Len could only manage the first two "C"s then he was still arguably correct.

Maybe he was just referring to the Professional Cabin Crew rather than their Council?

I also agree that Unite needs to make an appearance at the table - and soon.


Why bother? - Look at it from BA’s point.

Call Unite in, reach an agreement, shake hands on it with Unite promising to put it to the membership vote. Then don’t do any of that as CC89 throw a hissy fit with BASSA right behind, so go straight to ballot for strike again.

Ok, so call in CC89 and BASSA and talk to them directly without Unite, oh no can’t do that, even if they actually turn up for meetings, they won’t sit in the same room as each other.

Really, what is BA to do? The Union is broken, it doesnt work as intended.

There is a perverse logic to Unite delaying announcing strike dates. Skipping any legal issues, by holding off until the last possible date - i.e. Friday 11/2/2011, they can bring the whole of the Easter period and the Royal wedding within the 12 week 'protected' period for action. Now of course it then depends on what BA's response is. Unite could be desperately trying to bet the farm on a pair of deuces, hoping that BA holds nothing better. The suggestion that BA has been in contact with the ERS over the ballot figures indicates that all may not be well with Unite's membership records. Unite, according to press reports, seem rattled by the implication that they may have, once again, included people who were not entitled to vote in the ballot. It won't do their credibility much good.

The elephant in the room is whether strike action this time around would be afforded protected status. This may present cabin crew with a dilemma. They have three options, go on strike, report for work or go sick. The last option may not be a particularly good one given BA's previous action on those who threw a sickie. Looking at the letters from BA to Unite on the topic, it sounds like somewhere in the region of 300 WW cabin crew decided that calling in sick was better than going on strike. What those contemplating strike action need to bear in mind is that BA may decide that any strike is a continuation of the previous action and sack staff. Those dismissed would then need to go to a tribunal for unfair dismissal, but even at the end of that, BA is not obliged to re-employ them, just oay them some compensation. The management may reckon the price worth paying if it then removes a militant group from an otherwise reasonable community.

The talk of guerilla tactics is pure hokum. In fact is is worse than that, it could put cabin crew who follow such tactics in danger of losing their jobs for failing to work normally. It is sad some 5000 cabin crew choose to believe the word of a union that has no experience of running an airline over that of the management. It reflects poorly on both management and union and will end in tears.

Why bother? - Look at it from BA’s point.

Call Unite in, reach an agreement, shake hands on it with Unite promising to put it to the membership vote. Then don’t do any of that as CC89 throw a hissy fit with BASSA right behind, so go straight to ballot for strike again.

But remember all the conjecture on what a fantastic move it was for BA for the vote and the potential no confidence in Bassa? Just think if the requirement for recommendation was not a pre requisite for the offer.

Having a recommendation is normally a good thing, but was it a wise choice this time?

What it tells me, more than anything else, is just how far apart CC89, BASSA and Unite are from each other. ..add in PCCC now also perhaps.

What it tells me, more than anything else, is just how far apart CC89, BASSA and Unite are from each other. ..add in PCCC now also perhaps.

You are right, of course, but it is just an industrial relations issue. There will not be a groundswell of idealistic support due to a game changing way of life. It isn't the docks mines or print, as the role will still be here after this dispute has ended.

It is a simple redistribution of wealth. The market dictates that an amount of employees are paid more than others. That has been addressed and when IAG post their first big profit, that money will remain redistributed.

Life's a bitch.

VCC update is that BA are actively processing and renewing the qualifications of many VCC from groups across the airline. However, not all have been allowed or wanted to renew their SEP. To offset that, there are constantly new courses of VCC (i.e those who previously have not trained as VCC) going through Cranebank. There is zero sign of BA letting up on the contingency plans. Every single day BASSA delays strike action, the army to work against them grows.

Why are these people volunteering? Well a quick straw-poll suggested it was originally fear for their own jobs and now because they all feel they've taken their burden of pain; with redundancies, paycuts and changes to working practices. They just want to see Cabin Crew do their share (I know, MF & crew complements have done that from a financial sense) and then to stop threatening strike and driving our customers away. They see BASSA's tactics for what they are - agree to nothing , delay, delay, delay until lo and behold, "recession if over, no savings need to be made/agreed thank you very much, we told you BA would be alright". As a group, we are not endearing ourselves to fellow colleagues.

BTW, could I suggest the "P Triple C" for PCCC. :ok:

Len McCluskey had a problem with it yesterday on Radio5Live and kept referring to the "PCC" instead of the "PCCC". I don't agree with Len on most issues but on this point I do think that there is perhaps one too many C's.

Am I the only one who thought it may have been deliberate in an attempt to belittle?

As far as the name goes, you beat me to it :bored: PC3 :ok:

there are constantly new courses of VCC

Whilst initially VCC are being recruited and trained to 'stand-in' during any IA, they will continue to be kept 'in check' in the future to help out during times of mass disruption (weather, security, etc) as current crew agreements have restricted helping our customers during these times.

Quite ironic that these restrictive agreements that the Union are fighting to maintain are the very things that are fuelling the need for more VCC's (creating more flexibilty). Another example where being slightly more flexible in our approach could have offset the mass recruitment of VCC. Something that BASSA should have worked with BA towards.

Absolutely hula, one of the biggest problem for an efficient and often bilateral satisfaction is the union intransingency ref: flaxibility with their poor excuse of using every possible excuse as leverage against the company and indirectly often to the detriment of quality of life and choice of the union members.

That basically sums up unions and I support it. Business is very capable of looking after itself, but some body has to be in a position to be independent of the business process to protect workers rights.

Lets just take the PCCC as an example. The founder members of this group are current employees who feel the need to construct another union to work as a collective. Ok, they want to work with the employer in a more moderate manner, but they are not trusting the business with a free hand to do as it sees fit.

Unions provide a valuable service to employers too. They enable a single point of contact for negotiations on pay and other employment terms and conditions. A good union/company relationship is symbiotic. Inevitably there will be times when unions and the company within which they work differ in their aims and goals and a dispute develops, as we now have at BA. However, the relationship between BA and BASSA/CC89 - I deliberately do not say UNITE, has become toxic, the realtionship has become parasitical, the union is providing nothing that the company needs at the moment, but without BA the union will die. The problem is still what happens next?

When this current dispute is over, and it will be resolved eventually, will there be a working relationship left between the unions and the company? or perhaps more importantly can the relationship that there is left be repaired. One thing is certain, BA can exist without BASSA/CC89, the reverse is not true; unions are pointless without companies to provide employment for their members. BA does not need to repair the relationship with the current branches, it could choose to actively promote a new relationship with the PCCC or any other union it chooses.

some body has to be in a position to be independent of the business process to protect workers rights.


I agree. But in this case, a simple poll would show that the majority of crew would welcome a change of agreement to allow them to accomodate their lifestyle. 2 nights in PIK? Anyone???:suspect:

Can any BASSA supporter let us know how Mr. Holley's tribunal went?

Somehow, I do not think that Mr Holley will be trumpeting any decision handed down by the Employment Tribunal.

By the same token, what interest would BA have to publicise what is, after all, an internal matter?

By the same token, what interest would BA have to publicise what is, after all, an internal matter?To show the fare-paying public and shareholders that BA are dealing with one of the root causes of the 'problem'? Signposting what will happen to all of a similar ilk to DH, that not turning up for the job you are paid to do does have consequences? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

Len McCluskey is going to be on the Daily Polotics show on BBC2 at 12 oclock tomorrow (Tuesday 8th).

Len McCluskey is going to be on the Daily Polotics show on BBC2 at 12 oclock tomorrow (Tuesday 8th).


...by which time he will have only 3 days left to decide what to do with the latest ballot result, so this may actually be worth listening to.

I reckon he'll just waffle on about how nasty BA management are, how they refuse to talk and how the law favours employers. I doubt he'll reveal any action by Unite because he knows BA have got Unites balls in a vice.

I reckon he'll just waffle on about how nasty BA management are, how they refuse to talk and how the law favours employers.Don't forget he'll also waffle on about:

1. The 'PCC' [sic] beacuse he doesn't know they are actually the PCCC!
2. The nasty, nasty BALPA and how he is going to drum them out of the TUC [bovverd?].
3. How his [rigged] survey shows 'overwhelming' evidence of bullying of employees at BA.
4. The 'overwhelming' [in truth, utterly underwhelming] ballot in favour of [mindless] strike action [which isn't even going to happen ....].

:rolleyes:

I reckon he'll just waffle on


...so why not mail the show suggesting some questions they could ask him. I have.

Interesting letter made an appearance in the CRC today, someone had left copies all over the baggage room! It was a copy of DH's letter from the 22nd Jan with a P.S. at the bottom re-iterating that all those who voted NO or who didn't support their (I quote) great branch secretary should FIFO or fit in or **** off. The funniest part was the typo quoting LM as saying that she had been approached by strikers for help in dealing with BA and had refused to help them! Obviously that should have read 'non-strikers' but it kept us entertained for a while! No signature but it included the PCCC website for anyone who wanted it! Was this really written by a BASSA supporter or was it a wind-up because it was almost too bad to be real?

On a lighter note, I heard today that my name is on THE list which is reassuring; I wouldn't want anyone to think I didn't come into work and one should always have one's name on a list!;)

THE list

The thought of a list being collated of those who worked during the IA does make me chuckle!

What, exactly, is this list being used for and who is in possession? I can only conclude it will be used to intimidate ( just like the 'black list' that was being crowed about that BA apparently held of those who striked....).

And who is really that bothered who worked or not? Time to move on or move out.....

Well it must be a very long list by now!!!There must have been well over 5000 that worked!!

It looks like the natives are rising up here on cabincrew.com (http://www.cabincrew.com/ccnetwork//forum_posts.asp?TID=36587&PN=17)

Ben Ali, Mubarak..... Holley next? :p

For starters I want to know where the accounts from previous years are kept.

In DH's greenhouse... :}

From another forum looks like "BASSA Limited" is a newly found company that is accountable for membership funds.

A company limited by guarantee is a company in which the liability of the members or subscribers of the company is limited to what they have invested or guaranteed to the company. It must include the suffix "Limited" in its name. The guarantors give an undertaking to contribute a nominal amount (typically very small) in the event of the winding up of the company.

In practice, this can be used as a device for protecting assets if there were to be a claim made against an organisation.

If the organisation consisted of two "limited" companies, one that dealt with the operations "Operations Ltd" and one that owned all the assets "Assets Ltd". If we had cause to claim against the "Operations Ltd" with whom we had a contract and were successful in getting judgement, it would be possible that we would find that they actually owned very little and your claim would be worthless.

We could not look to "Assets Ltd" for payment as we did not have a contract with them.

How this does or does not relate to the formation of "BASSA Limited" I will leave up to you to draw your own conclusions.

This saga gets more bizzare by the day!

BASSA is just a branch of Unite it is not an independant organisation. It isn't DH's plaything.

How on earth can the leadership of Unite let this kind of nonsense continue?:confused:

One thing that does come to mind - if BASSA Ltd comes into effect would BA have a legitimate reason to de-recognise it? they have a recognition agreement with Unite (TGWU) and Unite (Amicus) not a newly formed organisation BASSA Ltd.

I expect the BASSAmentalists will all be nodding in agreement with DH saying what a masterstroke this is...........

NewsFlash...

Sky news saying Latest Ballot is invalid according to Unite... Re-ballot on its way...

You couldnt make this up...:ugh::E

You couldnt make this up...:ugh:http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gifWell, BASSA and Unite do marvellous job when it comes to messing everything up! :cool:

STATEMENT ON BRITISH AIRWAYS BALLOT

British Airways cabin crew voted last month overwhelmingly, and for the third time, to take industrial action against their employer on a number of issues relating to the company’s conduct of industrial relations.

It was further proof, if proof were needed, of the fact that management at this blue chip British company has completely lost the trust of thousands of their key staff - loyal, professional and customer-facing. In announcing the ballot result, Unite immediately appealed to management to meet the union for negotiations to resolve the outstanding issues which could have avoided any further disruption to the airline’s operations.

Since then, Unite has not heard a word from the company. There has not been the slightest flicker of interest from BA in holding talks to address the concerns of their own employees.

Instead, BA has launched a legal blitz against the independent scrutineer used to conduct this ballot, the Electoral Reform Society. This doubtless reflects BA’s decision to place its chief legal officer in charge of employee relations. While not addressing the union directly, BA advised the ERS that the ballot was unlawful and that any industrial action taken on the basis of it would be unprotected. This is merely an assertion by BA - however, the ERS decided, on the basis of protecting its own legal position, to issue a qualification in its official report on the industrial action ballot. Unite therefore cannot call industrial action based on this ballot, since such a move would expose our members to sanctions by a bullying employer.

However, if BA management believes that it can secure industrial harmony by these methods it is living in a fools’ paradise. Only negotiation, not litigation or intimidation, can place industrial relations on a sound footing and start to heal the wounds caused by this dispute.

BA cabin crew have repeatedly shown that they will not be browbeaten by bullying and legal intimidation. Unite is therefore immediately setting in hand preparations for a further industrial action ballot on the issues arising from management’s breach of agreements and policies of industrial intimidation, including amongst others the withdrawal of staff travel concessions, unjustified and draconian disciplinary sanctions against representatives and other members, the employment of strike-breaking cabin crew on different terms and conditions, the introduction of a new “mixed fleet” of crew again on different terms, and the intention to degrade union representation arrangements among cabin crew.

Failing a willingness by BA management to take its employment relations seriously and start negotiating, we would anticipate giving the company formal notice of this fresh ballot within the next ten days or so. BA management needs to understand that it will never break the spirit of cabin crew, and that customer uncertainty and confusion will continue until it starts listening to its staff.

Len McCluskey

General Secretary

Unite the union

February 8 2011

Can any current BASSA member please confirm what their monthly subs to BASSA are and what services they receive for that amount?

Unite is therefore immediately setting in hand preparations for a further industrial action ballot on the issues arising from management’s breach of agreements and policies of industrial intimidation, including amongst others the withdrawal of staff travel concessions, unjustified and draconian disciplinary sanctions against representatives and other members, the employment of strike-breaking cabin crew on different terms and conditions, the introduction of a new “mixed fleet” of crew again on different terms, and the intention to degrade union representation arrangements among cabin crew.

And so the pantomine continues! :ugh::ugh::ugh:
Still, why would D.H want any settlement, it's certainly not in his interest.

Unite is therefore immediately setting in hand preparations for a further industrial action ballot on the issues arising from management’s breach of agreements and policies of industrial intimidation, including amongst others the withdrawal of staff travel concessions

Strange but in the midst of last years strike action, Tony Woodly told Sky News that the strikes were about the loss of staff travel, amongst other things.

Its gonna be difficult for UNITE to find a unique issue that one or other of their officials has not mentioned during the strikes last year:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Seems Unite are clearly not bothered about the whole 'continuation of the existing dispute' debate, having announced their intention to re-ballot and, in the same message, directly linked this ballot to the previous issues.

I hope for their members sake that their understanding of Trade Union law is better than BA's......

doh.

still there and still on their terms and conditions 2 years later..
none of them have signed a new contract... I wouldnt call that defeated!!!
You all seem so interested in BASSA the second it was put on the forum you have it copied and pasted on here.. ????
I think you all secretly wish you had the convictions that these people have instead of fleecing the company for all you can whilst pretending your supporting it:rolleyes:

still there and still on there terms and conditions 2years later.. none of them have signed a new contract... i wouldnt call that defeated!!!


Nobody has ever asked you to sign a new contract. This was about imposition wasnt it? You've been done up like a kipper on that, and had new fleet imposed. If someone had told you 2 years ago that would have happened you'd all have been devastated.

You cant change the fight after you've lost it. Its like Argentina claiming that invading the falklands was just a bit of fun and didnt matter.

You arent on the same T+Cs you are a good 10% down with whats now 3 years without a pay rise.

still there and still got their dignity..no back stabbing for this lot heads held high and continuing.
stooping low to compare this with the Falklands... that was another folly engineered by policitians for a politicians gain!

still there and still on their terms and conditions 2 years later..

So if they're still on the same terms and conditions, why is there a dispute? What exactly did you go on strike about the first time?

Breaking news on Sky...

Unite have declared the BA Ballot invalid??!! I am away at the moment and have been told this second hand, any one else heard or seen the same?:ooh:

Why is it never their fault?

If the Union was competent, they would have ensured that the running of the ballot was watertight, and so would have ignored any moves by BA. The fact that they are reacting to BA's complaints by rerunning the ballot suggests that BA has a point, which points towards the Union being less than competent.

Oh well, it's their money (actually, of course, the Unite members' money, who should be better served than by this shower) :rolleyes:

Hey dave3

stooping low to compare this with the Falklands

BASSA hypocrisy alive and strong then dave 3, I mean its not like BASSA to compare themselves to Iowa Jima, the missing wall in Argentina or tiananmen square :yuk::yuk::yuk:

Which one of the impositions would you like me to start with?
and the fact that you all believed a company when they asked you to work a month for free because they were in financial difficulties, followed by the top management of this company in financial difficulties awarding themselves large bonuses, and then look at the individuals who took large amounts of money to break the strike. We are all well aware of the amounts of money paid out to break this strike. It beggers belief that those same people would say they are backing the company. No they were lining their pockets, other wise they would have volunteered for free is that not the sentiment of volunteering?:ugh:

still there and still got their dignity..no back stabbing for this lot heads held high and continuing.Good for you, if self admiration continues to drive you to whatever you wish to achieve.
You certainly won't be admired by the overwhelming majority of staff/passengers/public and media etc.

the fact that you all believed a company when they asked you to work a month for free because they were in financial difficulties

Err..FACT! BA were in dire difficulties, hence the overwhelming support of staff...well most with the exception of those that failed to do so and chose to undo much of it!!
Ironically, it may well be us that currently secures your job!

Which one of the impositions would you like me to start with?

So, these would be impositions which changed your terms and conditions then?

We are all well aware of the amounts of money paid out to break this strike. It beggers belief that those same people would say they are backing the company. No they were lining their pockets

Care to back up that statement with some proof? Lies about £500 payments to VCC's are pure BASSA fantasy.

"You certainly won't be admired by the overwhelming majority of staff/passengers/public and media etc"
Thank you for your concerns however BASSA members have had to become much more resiliant than they are given credit for.
Working with collegues who are willing to sell you for 30 pieces of silver at a whim would shape you that way I would think.

Which one of the impositions would you like me to start with?
and the fact that you all believed a company when they asked you to work a month for free because they were in financial difficulties, followed by the top management of this company in financial difficulties awarding themselves large bonuses, and then look at the individuals who took large amounts of money to break the strike. We are all well aware of the amounts of money paid out to break this strike. It beggers belief that those same people would say they are backing the company. No they were lining their pockets, other wise they would have volunteered for free is that not the sentiment of volunteering

Care to produce any evidence? Or is it just from the "BASSA big book of facts"?

Because you're talking rubbish. Nobody got paid anything more that their normal rates.

Another ballot..... This seems to be all that Unite can do and then not within the law.

More time for BA to train new cabin crew and VCCs so that they can ignore the next ballot even more than they did this one. If that is possible.

Unite and BASSA have no credibility left at all.

:ugh:

So what have those naughty boys and girls at the ERS been up to and who pressurised them to do it?!

Hotel mode thats the thing in a democracy, you are allowed a view, perhaps it may not be the same view as yours but its my view and the view of thousands.
I take it that all those in the company that won money in court over holiday pay will be giving it back to the company during this fight for survival ?

Chelsea FC is a business as well as a performing football team who actually bought their opponent's best player for 50 million bits of silver.

When the Ref said it was over, and nobody is making claim that he was cheating, it was over and the result stands.

If it was a Cup game and had been drawn there would be a replay to look forward too. But it wasn't, was it? Liverpool win the game, somehow, and every one lives to fight another day.

No tainted and untruthful claims made by the losing team, no demands for a replay, no miscarriages of justice.

Unite and Bassa have been defeated, and I get no satisfaction from that. Live to fight another day and put this one behind you, it's simply nothing more than an embarrassing farce now and it needs to end.

Otherwise, you might find youselves relegated to the 2nd Division and replaced by a newly promoted team that is far more entertaining and gives its supporters better value for money.

I thought it inappropriate to use historic analogies assimilating Unite and BA as the evil participants in a war (yawn) so I used historic analogy of the 2010/11 Football Season instead. No offence meant to supporters of Liverpool or Chelsea.

I think the supporters have had fantastic value for money so far. I know of no crew or flight crew who are financialy out of pocket for breaking the strike. Infact very very well off. ????

dave3, you said

I take it that all those in the company that won money in court over holiday pay will be giving it back to the company during this fight for survival ?I can assure you that just like BASSA, there has been no victory in court over Holiday Pay, lets get the facts straight shall we?

Infact very very well off. ???? no, worse of for reasons explained over 1 year ago, please stop passing questions of as fact:=

Problem is Lib Dem.

Tha annalogy doesn't work, as in the BASSA version of the game the player was never sold, Liverpool never won the game, in fact the game didn't even take place!!!:ugh:

Their version was the player was not sold for £xx million but taken from them by the bullying tactics of Liverpool, the ref was really a BAPLA member being paid by Liverpool and actually Chelsea won the game 3-1...

It does not matter what the facts are they will always twist them, make up fantasy and believe it. It really is so, so sad. I honestly wonder if the people that post on here are real or just wind-up merchants (trolls) as what they seem to believe and spout out just beggars belief. Talk about the Emperors New Clothes - phew!

Pornpants am I allowed to copy and paste a BALPA statement on this forum ? I think not, so i wont Post it unless given the ok. But its there in black and white .

ops this is an adult forum is it not? You can clearly see I am still on line so there is no need to talk about me as if im not in the room.. so to speak.
If you wish to communicate or comment please do so in an adult manor.

Dave3, I have absolutely no idea what you are on about or insinuating:confused::confused: but by virtue of the fact that you enjoy, albeit from time to time to pass your thoughts of as fact on here I have no choice but to debunk most of them, I am not a volunteer but I know many that are, and most if not all were out of pocket, certainly as Hotel Mode says, the majority of VCCs just got what they were paid anyway, I personally know of noone whom profited in the way you are trying to infer with vague references:ok:

Fact Pornpants. People were given money to commute to work, hotel expenses, taxis, plane tickets which having spoken to someone of late have been told they are still using these tickets .
I have fallen out with no one during this dispute and I refuse to fall out with anyone . we will all be here long after this dispute is over. I respect peoples views when communicated in an adult way. I believe that the strikers are stong and have dignity. They are standing up for What they believe in. They have murdered no one they are in dispute with the company and should have been left to hav their dispute. with out interference from other departments. My belief.

Yep - I'm a VCC, and have earned only some basic allowances per flying day - similar to regular crew (I believe).
No "inducements", no "bonuses" - nothing.

Perhaps you might like to enlighten me as to how I can "line my pocket" as I must have missed the memo informing me I was due.

By the way - I volunteered not realising that I even got expense payments per day. (In my normal job I only get "actual expenses" which is pretty much what I expected)

Go down this route if you want - but it comes across exactly as it is....desperate and a pathetic attempt at mud-slinging.

..okay Dave.

At your request. In an 'adult fashion'.

May I enquire why you want to work for a company that you clearly distrust?
May I enquire why you believe that anyone that wishes to oppose your (strike) actions must only be doing it our of financial gain rather than the fact they strongly oppose your unions views and actions. For the record I would work as VCC and pay (a nominal amount) to do so, if I thought it would break this strike and remove the power, contempt and arrogance of a few indivduals who seem intent on ruining the prospects of the company I work for, my family depends on and my pension rests with.
May I enquire what you have 'positively' achieved, individually and collectively thus far from your stikes.

3 for starters as it were

Dave3 for the last time I stand by everything I have said in my last post:ok:

I simply do not believe you so we will have to agree to disagree:ok:

People were given money to commute to work, hotel expenses, taxis, plane tickets which having spoken to someone of late have been told they are still using these tickets .

there you go again, to illustrate my point, do you think 8 months after the last strike BA would still be paying for the above??

Unless of course its for out of pocket expenses for re-current training.

They are standing up for What they believe in.

So are we (VCC)

they are in dispute with the company and should have been left to hav their dispute. with out interference from other departments. My belief.

People form their own opinions on disputes whether their own departments or not. Most formed an opinion that this wasn't just (Their belief) and saw the dispute as a threat to their own livelihoods. So took action. Why is the acting upon their beliefs any different to the Striker's right to theirs?

The fact is the union dinosaurs are going to lose, its only a matter of time...

Destroying the hand that feeds you is not a long term strategy

May I enquire why you want to work for a company that you clearly distrust?
May I enquire why you believe that anyone that wishes to oppose your (strike) actions must only be doing it our of financial gain rather than the fact they strongly oppose your unions views and actions. For the record I would work as VCC and pay (a nominal amount) to do so, if I thought it would break this strike and remove the power, contempt and arrogance of a few indivduals who seem intent on ruining the prospects of the company I work for, my family depends on and my pension rests with.
May I enquire what you have 'positively' achieved, individually and collectively thus far from your stikes.

I have worked for this company for some 28years. I allways trusted this company, and in return the company trusted the employees. Its is a glib comment to make I feel "why do you want to work for a company that you clearly distrust.
Having spoken to Willy Walsh and asking him direcly why he was following this path and asking him if he could talk to me in order to change my mind about taking part in strike action. Mr Walsh's reply to me was "Dave I promise you you will be no worse off under these new terms and conditions" Mr Walsh I said "I believe you, however It wont be you who breaks this promise as you will be long gone. It will be the guy that follows behind you" in response to this Mr Walsh laughed and said quote "oh you have the measure of me!!" unquote. I have invested my working career into this company .,we are not some fly by nights who want a short term carreer choice. I am respectful to my commanders and follow the chain of command to the letter. However I have my values.. Why do any of us work at British Airways and not at some charter company?Because of all the things that once made it great. My hope it that it will be great again someday and the wealth of experience of all departments will still be here to pass our experiences on to the next generation.. This can not and should not be about more wealth.. when is enough money and profit never enough?

Dave3 you said They are standing up for What they believe in. They have murdered no one they are in dispute with the company and should have been left to hav their dispute. With out interference from other departments. My belief.

I have heard this last part many times from strikers that feel they are being undermined by others working through the strike.
The problem is you don't live in a vacuum and your actions affect us all.
If this company goes bust or needs to make more cuts because of the consequences of prolonged industrial action and/or the failure to get a reasonable cost base for its staff and/or a union it can negotiate with in an adult manner then my family may well suffer as a result - my loyalties lie with them - not a group of employees who have enjoyed enviable working conditions whilst many of us have taken pay cuts, taken on extra work, moved from location to another location - I WANT TO WORK FOR BA.

If I live in a semi detached house and my neighbour starts building work on his house that affects the safety and structure of my house I have every right to complain and take direct action to save my investment and protect my family.

Yes you would complain to the council and go through the proper proceedures you wouldnt hire your own builder to go on that house and start work with out their permision.
I understand that you feel you have a valid point however that point should have been voiced properly. How many voted to strke then went into work and are still part of the union? How would flight deck have felt during their dispute if they turned into work one day to be told the guy in the right seat is shadowing them so they can know what to do should there dispute carry on in to strike action.. oh and by the way can you train this guy for us please?

Dave - sadly the guarantee you are looking for cannot exisit.

No CEO can guarantee what you are asking. Scale it down, if you owned a sweet shop and employed 5 people at £100 per week - could you really guarantee, that whatever happened to the sweet market in general, the fact another bigger, cheaper sweet shop opened next door, the facts kids didn't want to buy sweets anymore (!?) - you would always faithfully employee your 5 people at £100 a week right up until the time that the debt collectors dragged you out of the shop as your liabilities were in excess of your assets?

well Ops you will take out of that conversation what you will. I have no trust in anyone who promises with one hand and takes away with the other. Nor anyone who tells me we are a company in crisis and then we are financialy viable. People on all sides have been played with as pawns in this dispute and you must as an individual stand by what you belive. If the majority vote for strike action (and I will vote for strike action ) I will strike again and agian and again if need be.

The only pockets being lined in this dispute are those of DH and a bunch of lawyers.

Go to the next BASSA meeting and ask for the accounts, ask that they be placed (as they should under rule) on the top table and all members invited to inspect them at the end of the meeting. Ask for the branch auditors names and if they are present ask them to verify the accounts.

Ask what else do the reps get paid or paid for.

Then come here and tell us that all is well and that the only pockets that have been lined are those of loyal BA staff who want to keep their jobs!!!

Dave3:

Can I just ask you if you have read any of the communications from BA throughout this dispute, or have you relied on what BASSA has told you? I only ask as your previous posts suggest that your union has enabled you to still be on your current T & C's and free from signing a 'new contract'?

BA has been very clear from the outset that we would continue to benefit from our existing contracts and T & C's and nobody to my knowledge has signed a 'new contract' or any contract for that matter? This is not down to BASSA but BA. BA today are also to be thanked for securing your employment as had you carried through your threat to strike, you would have been sacked all thanks to the incompetence of the union. Surely if BA were the dreadful employer BASSA have attempted to portray they would have allowed the strike to go ahead and sacked everyone?

Just to put the finances into perspective, the list price on an A380 is $375M, a 787 is $200M. This years profits (hopefully) may not buy one of them and that's without taking into account the last two years losses. I think BA is still a long way from being financially healthy.

Just been on BBC 24 News on the television.

Hugh whatsisname asked the resident expert what the reasons behind the strike are and he replied that he could not give a clear answer to that question and neither can Len McLuskey.

When Hugh asked if the next ballot would be for different reasons; the answer was - your guess is as good as mine!

I then got bored of the whole thing and watched the rest of The Weakest Link.

Just checked the paper, Liverpool did actually win on Sunday. No reballoting or replay announced yet. Will watch Sky news for any updates.

vctenderness (http://www.pprune.org/members/337699-vctenderness) I would also like to see the books of BA that claimed we were in financial trouble.. please dont play the moral high ground that you are a loyal subject.. we are all loyal. The fact that thousands took part in Industrial action does not make them disloyal..just like the ground crew who walked out with out a ballot on a wild cat strike.. just like the price fixing, we are all loyal.. when we are at work we are all loyal to our company. However I am standing up with thousands of other for our employee rights and our right to have our voice. other wise we would be back in the victorian days. and the conditions you now work in and under were brought about by people standing up and fighting for those rights. I and thousands of others are choosing to protect those rights and not put greed and profit before the rights of the employees.

There are some VCC on here.

Question; were the allowances you received/receive the same as new cabin crew recruits into BA, or the same as the 'legacy' crew allowances, which the company seeks to remove and replace?

Genuine enquiry, I don't know the answer.

would also like to see the books of BA that claimed we were in financial trouble.. please dont play the moral high ground that you are a loyal subject..

OK, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Bassa were given the opportunity to have access to the state of the company's books at that time but refused to agree to sign a confidentiality form not to disclose what the state of affairs were, so never had access.

Shame because I believe that had Bassa been more professional and negotiated properly all along, then the outcome for cabin crew might have been a lot more positive.

(and I say this as cabin crew, not a pilot)

Dave 3

I honestly do admire you, and this is not a p**s take. During my time as crew before I moved onto ground work I met several people like you.

Your stance however is not only misinformed, hopeless and ultimately doomed but being led by union leaders who have now painted themselves into such a corner that theirs is one where there is no other way than to lash out and blame anyone but themselves.

Pause a moment and just think, are all those ground staff, pilots and opposing views completely wrong? Finally and please don't take this insultingly but you really never do answer direct questions, merely spout socialist jargon.

Dave
The only reason the company are back in profit is due to the hard work and talent of the management team you and other BASSA mentalists constantly deride.
During the worst recession know to this airline every department did their bit to help weather the storm - management included.
How many times I have heard the longterm crew moan about the falling quality of food and service and how the airline is going to the dogs!! That just shows at a base level why you do what you do and others pull the strings. Simple logic - if your company is losing £1 million a day you need to cut costs. By reducing crewing levels and adjusting service - food etc they have managed that and yet maintained high load factors - i.e. not scared off the paying public.
It is only due to the longevity of this dispute that coincidentally the airline is back in profit - no thanks to you and BASSA crazies at all - just everyone else involved in the airline instead. So excuse us all that we dont take your line of - all is ok now so why does the company not just do what we ask!
Ask yourself why the majority - the rest of the company and the public all think you are wrong and even amongst the Cabin Crew you are a minority with your stance - yet you continue to utter such garbage as I will strike strike strike strike etc. Just leave and get a job elsewhere. :ugh:

There are some VCC on here.

Question; were the allowances you received/receive the same as new cabin crew recruits into BA, or the same as the 'legacy' crew allowances, which the company seeks to remove and replace?

Genuine enquiry, I don't know the answer.


I'm not VCC but am crew who 'talk' to the many VCC's whom I've had the pleasure of flying with. They quite catorgorically state they get £2.40/hour a la mixed fleet. To be honest most don't even know what they are paid and don't seem to care./ They are NOT doing it for the money.:D

I really don't know what to say anymore about all this. Its totally beyond comprehension. The fact that the statement is written by a man in charge of an organisation representing 1.5 million workers and is paid a 6 figure sum is quite the most unbelievable thing I've ever read in the 'work' enviroment. I'm afraid BA must surely next time let them strike ( as is their right) declare it illegal, and dismiss the strikers. It would put us all of of this pathetic misery for ever

VCtenderness wrote


The only pockets being lined in this dispute are those of DH and a bunch of lawyers.

Go to the next BASSA meeting and ask for the accounts, ask that they be placed (as they should under rule) on the top table and all members invited to inspect them at the end of the meeting. Ask for the branch auditors names and if they are present ask them to verify the accounts.

Ask what else do the reps get paid or paid for.

Then come here and tell us that all is well and that the only pockets that have been lined are those of loyal BA staff who want to keep their jobs!!!


Well said. As I asked the now gone CCCP, show us the Bassa accounts. More chance of seeing Lord Lucan on Shergar, and I jest not

Dave3

I don't suppose you'd care to clarify the point about cabin crew terms and conditions I was asking about?

You started by saying they were 'un-defeated as they still had their terms and conditions', yet had been on strike over 'impositions' which, as I understand it, changed those very terms and conditions.

So, are you right, and the strike was for nothing, or are you wrong and the crew have been defeated?

CHIGLEY if you read my posts you well read that I have read all the ess and letters from the company. Im sorry to disapoint you but being in bassa does not make you blind. I am well aware of all the communications from both sides and even spoke to Mr Walsh about the dispute and listened to his version.
You have chosen to label us all as blinkered..sorry again to disapoint it is the members that are driving this the whole way with a great set of reps along side us.
Autobrake Low
I have not derided any management I have spoken to them directly and chosen not to take on board the spin..
Think about other departments that went on strike when they had no ballot think about other departments that are/have sued BA for holiday pay that they felt was owed.. lets not rest this all on the cabin crew.

Spn I still hold a contract of employment with in that contain points of that employment. I still feel that an imposition took place with the removal of crew from the aircraft. I also along with thousands of crew feel that staff travel is an implied contract of my employment with out being a employee of British Airways and holding a contract with them I would not have been able to use the said staff travel.
I am from a base closure and indeed that staff travel was given to me under my base closure contract as part of my base closure. I have a contract that states I have the right to be part of a union yet my employer at ever cost is doing everything they can not to recognise my union even closing the offices down of that union that have been part of cabin crew for many many years.

Unite knew more than three weeks ago that this ballot lacked legal validity. It chose to hide this fact from its members, opting instead for rhetoric about industrial action it knew could not happen.

Only Unite wants to continue this dispute. We shook hands on a deal last October but Unite reneged on it. The union does not have the support of the majority of our crew and it has lost 2,500 crew members since the dispute began.”

There have been enough ballots. It is time for Unite to return to the deal we negotiated, which leaves our existing Heathrow crew the best rewarded in the UK industry, and to put this dispute behind us.

dave3,

Thanks for the reply. I think it's fair to say that crew have had their working conditions changed by BA, so perhaps it would be better to admit that rather than trying to claim you are winning the fight and have not suffered defeats.

On reflection I think:

still there and still on their terms and conditions 2 years later..
none of them have signed a new contract... I wouldnt call that defeated!!!

might have been a tad optimistic.

Spin respect your view.. I will stick to mine.. we are not defeated you only need to see as im sure some of you have already the bassa forum.. I suppose it depends on what you class a s defeat.. signing a new deal before the old one is dead and buried??
We are all still holding our heads high. we have done nothing dishonest only what is our right as workers in the UK .. the right to take part in Legal Industrial Action.
Again BA have chosen to go to court rather than settle this round a table so please no one tell me this is not about Union busting

Dave
This process has drawn on for too long now - at every twist and turn your union have failed. Other departments have their disputes granted - but none that are so unjust and have proved to be so at all levels of judiciary in this land!!!!
The pilots dispute over Openskies was a losing case in the courts - thus it was abandoned and BA scored a win on that.
Your union however has some king of mentally deranged lemming tendency - closer and closer to the cliff edge. However the threat to everyone in BA was that you would drag us all over with you.
Your cause is seen as wholly unjust by everyone but the minority of you in the Cabin Crew - can you not look at yourselves and ask why??

For years you have have enjoyed over inflated terms and conditions and pay for doing a very comfortable job - travelling the world - 5 star hotels - all the cheap shopping etc. Granted there is hard work within a narrow time framework but its not exactly 9am-5pm on the bins is it?? And you get more pay! When the worst recession hits, your department was not even asked for a pay cut - just one off the aircraft which was easily met by those wanting VR. Was that so hard to bear looking back now?? Can you honestly say that it was such an outrageous demand?
The only reason it was imposed on you was because your dysfunctional union arrangements meant negotiation failed after some 9 months!!!! That was FACT from the court ruling - it was proved to be legally within BA's rights to impose the one down crewing - how can you justify your stand on that fact alone??

The day I sign an new contract will be the same day you do.

I never post on here because I can't stand the vitriolic, self centered, hypocritical bile spewed on here by so called professionals who I once considered friends and colleagues.

You are a disgrace to the TU movement and should hang your heads in shame.

You will get all you deserve in BA and I can't wait to stand and applaud.

dave3:

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't being smart when I asked you the question If I had read all your previous posts I may have not needed to ask. But as you have read them then I am confused as to why you think BASSA can lay claim to the fact you are still enjoying your T & C's when the company has assured us many times that this would be the case. Also, I signed the offer back in the summer and contrary to BASSA propaganda have not given up anything from my contract, in fact all I have done is enhance my current contract with a protected payment to guarantee earnings should our work disappear (although would have preferred the MTP, but BASSA rejected that one).

It seems that BASSA have now started to take credit for BA's promises? Also, why do you think BA were the ones who have saved you job. They could have easily allowed you to strike and then LEGALLY sacked you. Thought DH told you all that you couldn't be dismissed?

Dave3 you can't possibly preach democracy when the very Union branch you appear to support have publicly condoned any member who voted 'no' or went to work and has asked them to F*** O**!!

I never post on here because I can't stand the vitriolic, self centered, hypocritical bile spewed on here by so called professionals who I once considered friends and colleagues.

Posts on here that I have read come nowhere near how you describe them.

You are simply witnessing thoughts from a majority which, of course are mainly contrary to BASSA thinking, and, more to the point, would not make it on the BASSA website for daring to have an opposing view!!!

Your tone certainly backs that up.

From the point of view of a trade unionist, UNITE - the UK's biggest trade union has made 3 attempts to make a legal ballot and has only achieved it once. A 67% failure rate. If UNITE cannot get this core business activity right, where do the rest of us stand?

Dave3,

Please, please Dave, can we finally put this "The Company was never in crisis" nonsense to bed.

We have had 2 years of making eye watering losses (£1m+ per day).

We may make £200ish million this year, if we are lucky. ONLY because we cut costs, because IATA figures show yeald is still very weak.

That figure SOUNDs good, because those sorts of figures always sound a lot of money to ordinary mortals like us. In fact it's only "good" in the context of the fact that world aviation is struggling to come out of a recession.

If things were normal £200m would be a TERRIBLE result. A company that turns over what we do should be making about 10% profit in order to invest, put something aside for a crisis and meet it's pensions commitments etc. In BA's case that would be £1b ish. That £200m would probably buy one and a bit A380. We've got a dozen or so on order and about the same again 787s (Emirates has got 90 A380s on order. Yes 90, now tell me we are not is a whole new world of airline competition.)

If we continue to make only £200m every year, we'll be history as an airline sooner rather than later.

Directors bonuses are just a smokescreen by BASSA. Given the enormity of the figures above, is Willie Walshe's (defered, in share options) bonus going to make even the tiniest difference? No, obviously not.

Oil is now $100 per barrel, the Uk government's austerity measures have yet to really bite, last months growth figures were appalling, inflation is soaring. Only someone ignorant of the facts would say we are out of trouble even now, let alone say we never were in it.

I say this as a fellow cabin crew member, Dave, but the sad thing is, over the years, BASSA have put out all this silly spin as a way of avoiding doing some professional and responsible negociation. Unfortunately, the membership (because it's loyal and trusts BASSA, because they are fellow cabin crew) unquestioningly accepts it and repeats it like a mantra. You only really have to do a bit of research (as I have throughout this whole sorry affair) to see it's total hogwash.

BAASA refused the Company's offer to examine the Company Accounts. How, therefore, would they know how bad things were? Why did they refuse, unlike several other unions? I believe, because they had decided on their "crisis, what crisis?" stance and didn't want anything spoiling that spin opportunity.

Whilst I had hoped that BASSA/UNITE would have learnt their lessons regarding invalid ballots from Nov 2009. My fears have been realised, and once again they will be placing more uncertainty for passengers wishing to make future bookings, quote from a friend "Can you believe it? I made a booking for April thinking any IA would have to happen by then, and now they have to ballot again and my trip is at risk?" I could only sympathise with them that the incompetance of these unions is not over yet, and maybe, just maybe they will see sense and return to the negotiating table and end this dispute.

Dave3, I've worked for BA for over 25 years, and still trust them, after having to accept pay cuts, increased workloads, restructrures, and more. Fact: BA and the many of the worlds airlines were in severe financial difficulties 2 years ago, the fact BA made a profit in 2010, was due to measures agreed by 75% of the workforce to reduce costs, why 43% of the remaining workfocr think they should be excempt is beyond me? :ugh::ugh:

In 2008-09, British Airways made a loss of £401 million, that was compounded by a loss of £531 million in 2009-10.

That is a loss of £932 million over two years up to April 2010.

A loss of £932,000,000 (that is £1,270,000 pounds a day)

So the results for 2010-11 may show a profit of approx £200 million

We are now £700 million down on the last three years trading, and we also need to fund more efficient aircraft, pension deficit, shareholder dividend...the list goes on.

You don't need to look at the books, we will need to manage costs for many years to come to remain in this game and if there are individuals that can't agree with this outlook than I would be interested to know where I am mistaken.

BA cabin crew have repeatedly shown that they will not be browbeaten by bullying and legal intimidation. Unite is therefore immediately setting in hand preparations for a further industrial action ballot on the issues arising from management’s breach of agreements and policies of industrial intimidation, including amongst others the withdrawal of staff travel concessions, unjustified and draconian disciplinary sanctions against representatives and other members, the employment of strike-breaking cabin crew on different terms and conditions, the introduction of a new “mixed fleet” of crew again on different terms, and the intention to degrade union representation arrangements among cabin crew.



Now Len which 'cabin crew' do you mean. You have mentioned crew on 4 occasions here in 1 paragraph, and it seems to me all those 'crew' are different. You mention CC who have been bullied. I've not been bullied and I'm crew, so STOP including me in that statement. Then there are 'strike- breaking crew'. Yes thats me, and the reason I crossed the picket line and will do again and again is that Bassa have misrepresented me for YEARS. Then there's 'mixed fleet crew'. Nothing to do with them, any of this - sorry.
Then there's the union represention of 'cabin crew'. Len, you and the rest of Unite/Bassa DO NOT represent me. Do you understand.

I'm going to write to LM tomorrow and tell him to please STOP labelling ALL cabin crew under the Unite/Bassa umbrella

LM's letter to members:

http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/Lens_letter_to_members_8_feb_2011.pdf

To all Cabin Crew Members at British Airways

Dear colleagues

British Airways Cabin Crew Dispute

You will by now have heard that British Airways has once again chosen the legal route to respond to your massive vote to take industrial action.

Their challenge to our ballot via the Electoral Reform Society carries with it a veiled threat that any action taken by our members would be unprotected, and although we do not accept their assertions we are conscious that we are dealing with an erratic management who are capable of doing anything.

Having consulted with your representatives we are not prepared to put any of you at risk and have therefore decided not to proceed with action based upon this ballot result. As your General Secretary I share your obvious frustrations.


The company of course are hoping that their latest tactic will debilitate your resolve and make you want to
“give up”. They believe they can “break your spirit”. I know differently.

Over the past 18 months I have witnessed your dignity, your determination and your sense of loyalty to each other. It has truly inspired me, and although I am as frustrated as you obviously will be, I am appealing to you not to fall into the company’s trap. Have faith in your values, your representatives and your union.

The company have already been told that we will ballot our cabin Crew once again and this will begin this month.

We have repeatedly told them that it is only through negotiation, not litigation, that a lasting peace can be achieved. Instead of playing games they would be better served in addressing the grievances of their frontline
staff. Contrary to statements they have made there has been no attempt to try to meet with us to resolve outstanding issues. But sooner or later they will get the message that we are not going away, no matter what
they try to throw at you. And sooner or later they will have to account for the damage they are doing to the British Airways brand.

Your continued support for one another over this difficult period has been a tremendous tribute to you all, your pride and overwhelming determination to secure a just and fair settlement to your grievances; you can remain assured of mine.

Yours sincerely
Len McCluskey
General Secretary

vctenderness (http://www.pprune.org/members/337699-vctenderness) I would also like to see the books of BA that claimed we were in financial trouble.. please dont play the moral high ground that you are a loyal subject.. we are all loyal. The fact that thousands took part in Industrial action does not make them disloyal..just like the ground crew who walked out with out a ballot on a wild cat strike.. just like the price fixing, we are all loyal.. when we are at work we are all loyal to our company. However I am standing up with thousands of other for our employee rights and our right to have our voice. other wise we would be back in the victorian days. and the conditions you now work in and under were brought about by people standing up and fighting for those rights. I and thousands of others are choosing to protect those rights and not put greed and profit before the rights of the employees.

BASSA refused to examine the books when offered.

Now please answer my question will you ask to see the BASSA accounts as required by the rule book?

This blind avoidance of the problem is very worrying I am afraid.

Reading Len McLucky's letter above, I sense a worrying change in tone from the Unite leadership, compared to when Tony Woodley was at the helm.

You got the impression that Tony, toward the end, had had enough of BASSA, thought that they had been offered a reasonably ok deal and wanted shot of them and this dispute. Len seems all up for keeping it going as long as possible, maybe to coincide with a summer of co-ordinated industrial strife across the country, in protest to the government's austerity measures.

Are BASSA's members going to be used as pawns in a far bigger political gameplan?

Follow the above link and look at the date. This letter is 10 years old.:ugh:

Regards

Well, when you're busy organising yet another watertight overwhelming YES vote, you can't let little things such as numbers get in the way. :rolleyes:

Now, it's just occured to me that KW said recently that a bonus might be paid to all BA staff not participating in further IA. I maybe wrong, but ISTR that he said it'd be paid at the end of March? Will Unite manage to run the ballot and call people out on strike by then? If not, then BA seems to have done everyone a huge financial favour with their "veiled threat" re the last ballot.

'British Airways has once again chosen the legal route '

And just what other route could they have taken Len ?

Autobrake low.Dont knock all cabin crew unless you have tried it yourself (which i assume by your comments you haven't)- Flying isn't your normal shift work.

Our allowances are at a fixed rate of £66 per day. We only get these on trip days. So for a 3 day trip we get 3 lots of £66. We do not get anything for sep days or other training.

Storminnorman
You are correct -I have not tried being Cabin Crew. Whilst I disagree with the BASSA stance I am not prepared to volunteer and antagonise the dispute.
I have however worked nights for 6 months on a factory line - been a security guard and even cleaned portaloos in my illustrious working career and I can categorically say that the cabin crew shift work certainly appears infinitely better than any of those!

There may be hard work from time to time as there is with most work but to get beds on the aircraft and generous breaks -and end up in nice hotels and see the world and get very generous salaries to do it - you can see why so many check in agents and other staff members are only too happy to offer their services!

Observation from Stormin Norman
Autobrake low. Dont knock all cabin crew unless you have tried it yourself (which i assume by your comments you haven't)- Flying isn't your normal shift work. You are so right Stormin, it does take a bit of getting used to!

I have flown with VCC and they are absolutely no different to any cabin crew that have just come to WW. Unless you have done it, you simply cannot describe what life is like sometimes living plus 11hrs/minus 8hrs and getting your rest and life sorted downroute.

VCC, everyone, we eventually achieve a regime that suits us but it is a question of what works for you and it takes a few trips to figure that out.

I think you will find that very many VCC will admit to finding the WW experience a whole lot different to the PR view of beaches, five star hotels and ample crew rest in bunks.

I have flown with VCC and they are absolutely no different to any cabin crew that have just come to WW. Unless you have done it, you simply cannot describe what life is like sometimes living plus 11hrs/minus 8hrs and getting your rest and life sorted downroute.And how you feel if somebody said that an even "trained monkey" could do your job?

I was recruited to BA when fluency in at least an European language was a requirement to get the job (and as to your knowledge I am fluent in an additional two languages despite what you, or as what pilots, tend to insinuate otherwise).Why can't cabin crew make a career? Why is it fine for pilots, or any other position in this company, to make a career ? I have given 16, almost 17, years to BA. Why, all of the sudden, are some to say that I shouldn't be allowed to make my job a career? Are we all "flying waitresses"?

We don't want do destroy BA. We just want to make a living.gl

I have flown with VCC and they are absolutely no different to any cabin crew that have just come to WW. Unless you have done it, you simply cannot describe what life is like sometimes living plus 11hrs/minus 8hrs and getting your rest and life sorted downroute.I suppose you can't.

I suppose it's easier when you can bid to work your half a month in a row and then have remaining half a month off. It's different for those of us on WW (with a "computer says no" system) as we don't have a bidding system when they are working us to a maximum.

removed removed

Dave3
I admire the determination of you and your colleagues to “stick it out”.
You have principles, as it seems your colleagues have. Principles can and are expensive. People in this world have lost their lives to uphold their principles (think Tiananmen Square, or the current situation in Egypt.) I of course would not advocate that the high principled cabin crew should be snuffed out and would not wish that. Replace “lost lives” with “lost jobs”. A person must have a strong constitution to carry on with their principles to such an extent that it ends with loss of life (job).

A large number of CC have looked at the situation they are in and have decided, that despite their high principles, their families come first (call it common sense if you like). Dave3, a time will come soon when you and your colleagues have to make a decision.
Miss M
We all have careers of some sort. The job market and financial health of a company can determine how those careers go.

Clearly BA wants to have cost effective staff, unfortunately for CC, you as a group were not considered cost effective. CC costs to the company have been shown to be double or more above the market rate. So what is the market rate? It is the rate that can be sustained by the company, whether it be in wages paid (the minimum without haemorrhaging staff) or the highest price obtained on a product (without haemorrhaging customers).

To determine whether you continue your career with BA or choose another airline is up to you. People do move on to improve their careers.

BASSAwitch,

Fantastic !. As a former GMB senior rep and former Airline manager I can see both sides to the story. The problem is, BASSA have misled their membership so badley, it's criminal . Honest to God, I have never witnessed such bad union leadership in all my life. I am a Pilot, it's true, however, I also support unionism, but I have to say, what a bunch of hot headed idiots the top tier of BASSA have been over this dispute.

I feel sorry for the 45 ish odd per cent of the total BA Cabin crew, that actually voted for strike action. You can be sure that push comes to shove, only half again will actually put their money where their mouth is. And when they do, I admire their conviction.

That's the world we live in folks. Mortgages have to be paid. Other halfs have lost jobs, ( see public sector ) kids have to be fed and most of all, we have to make ends meet.

We are ALL lucky in this climate, to have decent, honest to God jobs, my friends.

Remember this, it's hard to let go. Think outside the box. Think miners and imagine yourself with NO income, devorce, depression and maybe worse. This is no joke. This country and indeed the world is in not a happy place. What effect would that have on your lifestyle, family, living standards ? Catastrophic predictions I hear you say ?

Think about it. I lived through it and it wasn't pretty.

Take care my friends,

It's different for those of us on WW (with a "computer says no" system) as we don't have a bidding system

We could have had. And an hourly rate. But who made the decision to say 'NO'....? (without asking its members their opinions......sound familiar?) :ugh:

Miss M

I think what you have said lies at the heart of the problem. Cabin Crew who joined BA in the past feel that they embarked on a career as cabin crew and it should be possible to continue.

As in most jobs the selection criteria, in your case language fluency have changed. I think over the last 15-20 years most jobs have had alterations to their initial selection requirements. Unfortunately in the case of cabin crew that fluency is a nicety not a necessity.

If you would like to compare careers, I think many people outside aviation would consider 16-17 years in the same job to be incredible stability. The fact that only now are you being asked to consider if the potential change in lifestyle (not pay, as nowhere has it been stated that you will lose money despite the BASSA rhetoric) is no longer compatible with your ambition. In any other job, including being a pilot those decisions are all part of the process.

Things change, the business model adapts and the cost base does too. The demographic within the company has altered incredibly and if time to promotion etc do not suit you then it's time to look if those ambitions can be fulfilled elsewhere.

What this dispute has highlighted is that unlike other roles many BA cabin crew feel that their career stability and path is owed to them by nature of long service. It is up the the company to modify its business model to maintain their lifestyle rather than the other way around. I find it hard to believe that intelligent, generally well read individuals actually expect that in the modern world.

BASSA has hastened the advent of a new tranch of crew, they even requested it when they wanted the numbers allowed to leave under VR to be replaced to get the numbers on board back.

They missed their chance to negotiate a crew wide allowance schedule that would have made it comparable to put new and old contract crew on all routes and so have made the old contract less economically sustainable.

All these things are not the company eating at your pay/lifestyle and so career but BASSA not seeing the future and mitigating the threats to you.

I felt truly sorry for crew at the start of this dispute who were let unsuspecting to a 12 days of Christmas strike. Post that I feel sorry that those decent people have been led by such appallingly self obsessed union leadership who clearly cannot see what consequences they are bringing on their members. I feel almost ashamed that those, still holding membership have not brought to task their leaders and demanded not only explanations but direct answers to why 3 ballots held under simple existing law cannot be run legally. Simply why are they allowing the reputation of themselves to be soiled so badly.

Unfortunately that mud sticks, not just to the individuals but to us as a company. The outwardly inexplicable continuation of this idiocy taints us all. Possible another great reason why so many VCC's are still volunteering.

My apologise for the rant, and I know it is possible a futile exercise but the smiles at work hide a deep frustration. I hope this is over and soon, but until your colleagues realise your employer owes you the money for the work you do and does not OWE you a lifestyle or career I fear this will continue. It's your decision to take what they offer or find better elsewhere.

Good luck

Jazzy

I suppose it's easier when you can bid to work your half a month in a row and then have remaining half a month off. It's different for those of us on WW (with a "computer says no" system) as we don't have a bidding system when they are working us to a maximum.MissM is trying to blame "someone else" for the fact that crew don't have a decent bidding system.

Almost every other airline has a crew bidding system, and BA used one for mid-fleet (and I believe plans are to introduce one for mixed fleet).

Why don't crew have a bidding / swapping system?

Because their reps don't want one!

Bassa reps choose their trips, and can drop any they don't want - to then replace with any good trips available. Why would they want a fair and equitable system for all crew?

So MissM. Time to get real. If you're as intelligent and educated as many crew keep telling us then ask some searching questions. Like.

Where are the Bassa accounts
How much does DH take as income, and when will some real elections take place

Blame your own reps.

While I can not believe we have to suffer the pain and waiting of yet another ballot I guess it means that a membership count is underway. BA reckon that 2500 have already cancelled their payroll contributions and that was presumably before DH's FIFO message. It also doesn't include the droves who have headed out of Amicus because they are not subject to payroll deductions. What will the final headcount be? They won't be able to hide the numbers because the ERS will declare how many are balloted.

If it's only the YES voters left (and that's assuming none are upset over yet another c*** up in the ballot) then the actual number could be less than 25% of the community.

Will anyone notice if they all withhold their labour for the rest of the year?

Perhaps someone needs to point out that, at the end of the day, BA are protecting both those who could have been misled by their Union into taking catastrophic unprotected industrial action and their parent Union who, at worst, could have been liable for loss of earnings and costs to BA.

In some respects BA are doing Unites job in ensuring that a Ballot is achieved coreectly and thus protects workers. Len seems to think that BA is 'bullying' but, if the ballot was so full of holes, then Unite would have been negligent in alowing its members to take action that would have almost certainly cost them their jobs. Len would be fineon his £90,000 plus though. The loss of a few members subscriptions could be found elsewhere I'm sure.

As to languages, I seem to remember that CC got paid extra for each language so the 'pay back' for that was achieved. Its also not so unusal to speak another language, I speak three, two fluently and one to a high standard but not quite fluent. My better half speaks five fluently and another 3 to a very high standard. What difference does that make? None.

If a job becomes a career is dependant upon the employer in many respects. If the employer sees that low cost, high turnover is more viable than retention, retraining, pension and benefits then the position goes from one of a long term career to a job with a high personell turnover. It could, in all possiblities, occur to any department within BA.

No-one has tried to take the CC jobs or even their money. The company wanted rationalisation and cost savings. The head of IFcE was well aware of the rumblings of columbus and was prepared to shelve it in exchange for lucid, sensible negotiated cost savings. BASSA refused to negotiate, they refused to sit in one room and talk, they refused to sit in a room with your fellow colleagues Union members, they refused to discuss Mixed Fleet, they refused to see the confidential figures, they refused to believe the finacial position of the company, they refused to believe a fully independant fincial assessment. You want someone to blame? Blame your BASSA board who have done the only thing they kow how to do. Scream no until IA and then get what they want. Only this time it hasn't worked.

I must take issue with your insensitive and thoughtless post.

I don't have time to read all those hahaha's, please abbreviate to ROFLMAO.:ok:

“A large number of CC have looked at the situation they are in and have decided, that despite their high principles, their families come first (call it common sense if you like).”

I would just like to add that, for many cabin crew, the decision to come to work and resign from Bassa, was not despite our high principles – it was BECAUSE of them.

I've a previous role I worked with 7 unions recognised by my then employer. My current employer recognises 3 different ones. I've worked with reps from the 10 and I've never, repeat never seen such a poor relationship between management and a Union. It really doesn't help that WW and DH are villified and demonised, whilst this continues there will be no mutually positive outcome to this dispute. I've read this thread and never posted, however I've discussed it with fellow HR managers, ACAS staff and a PCS Union rep. We've all shook our heads in disbelief at the poor way this has been handled by BASSA i.e. ripping up the facilities agreement, not turning up for work, Membership lists not being updated, poorly exceuted ballots, potentially unprotected IA, etc etc and generally it appears not being willing to work towards mutuality (win-win). I'm not taking sides merely commenting, however BA defintely have the upper hand and if they lose I'll be utterly amazed.

On the DH employment tribunal, I've had some legal training and I'm not aware of one case where a Employment Tribunal, Employment Appeal Tribunal or CA has ruled that a dismissed employee should be re-employed. However if its correct that BASSA will keep DH as their leader until all legal avenues are exhausted, then expect the case to go from ET to EAT, to the Court of Appeal to the ECHR, in which case he'll be Branch Secretary for some considerable time.... Even if the ET finds he was unlawfully dismissed compensation payments are capped at an ET/EAT at around £65K, unless a claim for discrimination has been made. So if DH wins BA won't have to re-employ him, however potentially they'll have to pay out up to £65K, it might be worth them losing the ET on a technicality and paying out up to 65K just to conclude the case and therefore potentially remove him as Branch Sec.

All in all it does not look good for BASSA or BA

I would just like to add that, for many cabin crew, the decision to come to work and resign from Bassa, was not despite our high principles – it was BECAUSE of them.

A different set of priniciples to Dave3, to which I applaud you. :D

Again BA have chosen to go to court rather than settle this round a table so please no one tell me this is not about Union bustingThe only way settling things around a table will ever have any chance of working is if both side negotiate sensibly and realistically. Sadly, Bassa has shown time and time again that realistic negotiation isn't one of their strong points.

You can bet your Strike Pay that BA would rather settle things round a table - nobody will be enjoying the legal bill associated with bringing this debacle before a judge - but they don't really have that option when trying to negotiate with those who won't negotiate.

I moved this posting as I feel that we have to fight psychological warfare by the company with our own,
I was trying to think of an example of the psychological advantage created for one group over another. If say, we all started referring to ourselves as First Fleet, by we I mean WW, short haul, EF, as we were created first. Then any other fleet created after us would as a matter of fact be Second Fleet. As it was created second. The psychological image of "First Fleet", is the best, the winners, number one, as that is what the word First means to people. What people associate with the word second, is of something not quite as good, a loser, as that is what the word second creates in peoples minds. So if you always referred to yourselves as first fleet, for that is exactly what you are ( created first ) that promotes a mental picture of the best. Winners. Second fleet are exactly that ( created second ) and give a mental picture of,------- well you get the picture. So any one can use this type of one upmanship without wearing hats. Be the best, join First Fleet.

The above is what we are up against. I fully understand that most pro Bassa crew think the non-strikers are all mad at not backing the union, or even worse not taking up BF's offer. But the above is to me delutional, pathetic and sad.

That's one of the most hilarious things I've ever read....

Their delusion knows no bounds.

A psychological advantage (which they won't achieve by calling themselves First Fleet, anyway) won't pay the rent.

A psychological advantage (which they won't achieve by calling themselves First Fleet, anyway) won't pay the rent.

The best bit is some bright spark is now taking orders for 'First Fleet' bag tags. Good for them. Probably the same person who runs Bassa's, Crew Defence, and Santascrew accounts. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

But the above is to me delutional, pathetic and sad.

And abominable!
If this is truly typical of the mindset of strikers, I can see this dragging on and on. I thought this would be concluded by attrition, because, sadly negotiation is something that is simply beyond BASSA. So here we are, the minority hacking off the majority, and, seeing once again, total intransigence from the BASSA followers.
I despair!

This from BA ...

I am sure you will have heard that Unite cannot announce strike dates on the back of its recent ballot.

Perhaps inevitably, Unite has tried to mask the fact that it did not run a proper ballot by attacking the company.

The fact is it is up to Unite to conduct industrial action ballots in a lawful manner and it didn’t do this.

The good news is we can reassure our customers that the immediate threat of strikes is over and we can further strengthen our strike contingency plans. These are already robust enough for us to fly 100 per cent of our long haul operation.

The bad news is that Unite intends to ballot again.

For most of us, the time has come to move forward. There are exciting times ahead with a renewed focus on our customers and investment in products and services that you can be proud of. In IFCE, we have made the cost savings we need and there’s a real opportunity for investment in you.

For those of you who have signed up to the individual offer, the two-year pay deal begins this month and your pay rise will be in your February pay.

I want that for all of you but Unite is standing in the way by not signing the offer that is still available.

Despite what you may have heard, we have been, and remain, ready to meet with Unite. I hope Unite will pause and reflect. Strike action has achieved nothing during the past two years, and it is casting an unnecessary shadow over what could truly be an exciting chapter for all of us.

Thank you for your continued commitment. If you are in the crew report centre at either Heathrow or Gatwick please come and talk with us. The sooner we can all work as one team to serve our customers the better.

The best bit is some bright spark is now taking orders for 'First Fleet' bag tags. Good for them. Probably the same person who runs Bassa's, Crew Defence, and Santascrew accounts. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

And if the template of the same that I've been shown is accurate I'd wonder if BA might not have something to say about the use of their (presumably copyrighted) Speedmarque and Mylius Font for such things. I can see this being nipped in the bud plenty quickly.

MrB

Len McCluskey needs to proofread his letters: it's dated 8th February 2001! :E

Bassa reps choose their trips, and can drop any they don't want - to then replace with any good trips available. Why would they want a fair and equitable system for all crew?

BA have a standing instruction BASI 6 that is there to deal with fraud and misuse of systems etc.
If you can prove reps manipulate their rosters to someone else's detriment have a read.
Only available from a BA office, I think.
:ok:
DW

The psychological image of "First Fleet", is the best, the winners, number one, as that is what the word First means to people. What people associate with the word second, is of something not quite as good, a loser

It was BASSA's inability to negotiate that led ultimately to MF being introduced. Those crew who chose to join BA as MF crew do so because

1) They need to work, and
2) There are no better terms available, BA will never again employ crew on the 'legacy' crew terms.

Now the crew who have lost nothing turn their hatred on those who have had to accept reduced terms.

Charming. As Len said:

Over the past 18 months I have witnessed your dignity

Playground spite more like.

Bassa reps choose their trips, and can drop any they don't want - to then replace with any good trips available. Why would they want a fair and equitable system for all crew?

BA have a standing instruction BASI 6 that is there to deal with fraud and misuse of systems etc.
If you can prove reps manipulate their rosters to someone else's detriment have a read.
Only available from a BA office, I think.
:ok:
DW
BASSA reps were caught fiddling rosters a couple of years back. The scheduling officer was sacked by BA and, surprise, surprise was then employed by BASSA at the Bath Road offices!!

The reps slid under the wire and lived to do another SIN, NRT:}

GOING NOWHERE Class? Comfort? Cost? Or confrontation? Our members want you to always think positively about BA. They care passionately about caring for you.

Thats why they called a 12 day strike at Christmas to screw you over, and why they want to target your school holidays.

But three times in the past two years they have voted overwhelmingly to take industrial action at the airline. How could this happen at a once-great British brand?
Because they can't add up the number of members they have and hold a legal ballot.

These are the same courteous, professional people that take care of passengers and help you choose to fly with BA. Other airlines are proud of their cabin crew. They choose them to be their public face.

Not Virgin, who use models in their adverts. BA's adverts always feature the BA amabassadors, real life BA employees.

Not BA. It is now better known for industrial confrontation than for passenger comfort. What a turnaround for what was once the "world's favourite airline".

I doubt the customer surveys would agree with that.

Unite cabin crew members at BA are mainly female, working mums.

I doubt the People departments statisticians would agree with that.

They are proud of their airline and proud of the qualities that make it admired the world over. The vast majority will dedicate 25 years or more service to the airline. Many will never earn more than £25k per annum for skills that stretch from life saver to linguist.

Many hate the airline and everything it stands for, and hate their colleagues too. Many will work for 25 years, earning far more than £25K, simply because they cannot find such a well paying job elsewhere.

In return, they expect respect. They are the professional, friendly people that make BA what it was – a world class brand.

Lots of things made BA a world class brand, not just cabin crew.

They will also not tolerate bullying. That is why they are standing up against the sacking of 18 cabin crew and disciplining of scores more as BA exacts revenge on the thousands of crew who took lawful industrial action last year.

Sacked for assault, making death threats, harassment, vandalism, absenteeism outside industrial action, interference with investigations, redirecting commercial web traffic to gay porn, and other things.

Bullying, intimidation, legal threats – anything but listening to their own employees from BA's lawyer-led management.

They've listened repeatedly, but they won't give in to BASSAs demands, which is what Unites real problem is.


That is what stands in he way of peace at BA – a board that prefers litigation to negotiation.

A board that will litigate when the union won't negotiate.

Two years ago, a battle over standards at the airline began; it was never about money.

So it's all about the customer then?

Indeed it could still be solved without costing BA a penny. But it will never be solved by bullying. As many times as BA force us to reballot our members, we will do so. The spirit of BA cabin crew will never be broken.

And we'll ballot and ballot and ballot until we are sick! (But we'll never mount an effective strike).

Link to the Advert -

http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloads/advert.pdf

How much more of their members money are they going to waste on ridiculous ads in papers that the public just see as a desperate attempt to win favour? The last 'Brutish Airways' campaign was a complete disaster if it's purpose was to 'enlighten' the good british public, because they still think that BA cabin crew are a bunch of self serving, greedy waiters/waitresses and this desperate inaccurate rubbish will only cement those beliefs with the public and media.

I'm a little bit sick of being tarred with the same brush as these militants. This ad is written as though it's the 'voice' of all BA crew not a small majority who have backed themselves into a corner and now have nowhere to turn.....but sadly everyone has had enough and nobody is listening anymore.

Personally, I think BA this week have offered the strikers a lifeline as their Union could have once again got them sacked. This IMO was an opportunity missed. BA should have let them strike and then offered them the choice to sign the deal or leave as they had been unprotected? Now the saga continues, but then theres always the next ballot I guess because as sure as day follows night that too will be ILLEGAL. :ugh:

If what you say is true, it's incredible. Surely the BASSA membership know this, and if so, why can they not see that BASSA is rotten to the core with corruption? BASSA seem unwilling to release details of their accounting, which should also give cause for alarm bells to be ringing. DH is not an employee of BA, and yet he claims to be fighting for the best interests of crew.....of course he's not just stoking the fire because he's bitter at losing his job is he?

The problem is, so much damage is needlessly being done to BA and all of its employees by allowing such a twisted union to continue their campaign.

If what you say is true, it's incredible. Surely the BASSA membership know this, and if so, why can they not see that BASSA is rotten to the core with corruption? BASSA seem unwilling to release details of their accounting, which should also give cause for alarm bells to be ringing. DH is not an employee of BA, and yet he claims to be fighting for the best interests of crew.....of course he's not just stoking the fire because he's bitter at losing his job is he?

The problem is, so much damage is needlessly being done to BA and all of its employees by allowing such a twisted union to continue their campaign.

I can assure you 100% this is true!

The BASSA reps kept their heads down and mumbled about being 'bullied' by the wicked BA management and to try and cleanse their souls gave the scheduler a little job on the payroll as a thank you.

They actually got found out because it was the schedulers honeymoon and he arranged for a number of them to be on the (very nice, lucrative) trip and extend the usual courtesy to him and his blushing bride!

Problem was a couple of the other crew members didn't see it like that and dobbed them in:ok:

The biggest laugh of all is that the ad has been run in the Daily Mail, UNITE must have money to burn.

BASSA hate this newspaper, can't see it getting any sympathy from Mail readers, nor in the Mirror, maybe the Guardian, but lets face it their one reader is not going to make much difference!!

Elsewhere its claimed the ad is responsible for IAGs share price fall, obviously the BASSA members don't read the financial press, Air France have just announced an unexpected third quarter loss, meanwhile BASSA continue their economic warfare:mad::mad::mad:

I'm a little bit sick of being tarred with the same brush as these militants. Maybe time for the overwhelming MAJORITY to bombard Red Len with letters,copied to BASSA and other interested parties as to their true thoughts and feelings, or, at least a letter countersigned by the MAJORITY.

I just cannot see an end in sight to this ridiculous, farcical situation.

Our very future threatened by a minority militant group. How can this be?

I wonder if BA lawyers are looking at the use of the BA tail-fins in this piece of propaganda?

You need permission to use it in any kind of advert and I'm pretty sure that would not be forthcoming.

Ho hum back to the High Court:hmm:

BA targeted by fresh union attack ads - Marketing news - Marketing magazine (http://www.marketingmagazine.co.uk/news/1054151/BA-targeted-fresh-union-attack-ads/)

Please think hard about what you will (if anything) gain with a strike vote in the next ballot

An idea. Maybe with your next ballot, each member that votes for strike could also please send in their 90 day notice resignation letter to BA, thus letting everyone move on from this tiresome and now boring situation.

Voting for strike obviously means you don't like BA, so maybe you could please go now and leave the rest of us to improve and grow what is a great airline to work for

This situation is beyond a joke and these adverts BASSA has just placed in the press are at best, puerile

..and at worst?

I'd love to know Lightbulb's take on the advert.

That BA has not gone nuclear with Unite, so far, is compelling. The re-ballot allows more contingency planning.

I wonder how the bonus payment, if issued, will be distributed?

nurj :}

By the way, 'The Team' in the cabin, yesterday, comprised 4 blokes, and a damned good job they did too. Not a Mum (single or otherwise) in sight. :D

Well, I would like to see if the Mail is arguing with itself!

I have been researching on what you can get booted out of a union for, so I will keep my thoughts to myself on this issue. Nuff said?

An idea. Maybe with your next ballot, each member that votes for strike could also please send in their 90 day notice resignation letter to BA, thus letting everyone move on from this tiresome and now boring situation.

I would suggest that every NON MEMBER that gets a ballot paper, sends it to his/her manager...Then all these pieces of paper can be presented in court by BA, as evidence.

Petermcleland

I would suggest that every NON MEMBER that gets a ballot paper, sends it to his/her manager...Then all these pieces of paper can be presented in court by BA, as evidence

FYI, that was done last time by a number of crew including my best friend. BA are on top of this believe me

VCtenderness

I can assure you 100% this is true!

The BASSA reps kept their heads down and mumbled about being 'bullied' by the wicked BA management and to try and cleanse their souls gave the scheduler a little job on the payroll as a thank you.

They actually got found out because it was the schedulers honeymoon and he arranged for a number of them to be on the (very nice, lucrative) trip and extend the usual courtesy to him and his blushing bride!

Problem was a couple of the other crew members didn't see it like that and dobbed them inhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

I can concur with the above. Also the lady rep NM who was sacked by BA in early Jan, now also has a job at Unite


Also here is the latest 'blog' from DH.

Just some personal observations from me -

There is no way in this country any union could conduct a ballot that is 100% safe - it simply isn't possible.
Whereas before, judges when looking at injunctions would accept a margin of error, that is increasingly becoming a thing of the past. Blame the political hold on the judiciary for this, not the unions.

Even though legal advice taken following BA's letter to the ERBS seriously cast doubt on BA being successful in the High Court there was enough grey area to make it sensible to reballot. Another month of uncertainty hurts BA more than us.

An example of how ludicrous things are becoming - One of the problems surrounded a website report back from Amicus's branch meeting, held a week before the ballot closed, which said how the membership reiterated their opinion that any overall settlement must include the initial crew complement imposition. I gather BA insisted that this "report back" from a meeting had tainted the ballot (as if) and crew would now believe they were voting on crew complements. As we have already had a strike on this issue then the 12 week protection period would be exhausted and going out again BA would be able to dismiss instantly claiming the strike was continuous. Extremely tenuous I know and also highly debateable but BA are exploiting every loophole - so much so it is dangerous to even report back what members say at branch meetings.

What now? Well we said it will be a war of attrition and that is what it has become. Keep voting yes, keep the faith and keep going.

Discussion - Business Traveller (http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/BASSA-Unite-Latest-Ballot-Just-43-percent-of-BA-Cabin-Crew-Support-Action)

I wonder why the members don't follow the money, simply by asking for independently audited accounts.

But we have and on SO MANY occasions for years:ugh: You are met with a blank look, and then severe questioning as to WHY you need to see them. Yes I knew it was my right as a member, but easier said that done. It needs someone to take them on legally on the account front IMO

Interesting that this 'Bassa Ltd' was founded at Eastleigh - Hants, just a few miles from where DH resides.

Yellow Pen - great post re the advert. Spot on especially about the caring crew and 12 days of xmas!!. I believe the timing of this advert is interesting. Could have been done for months now, but the synical side of me believes it was probably conjured up by Len and DH to keep the baying hordes from making too much noise over the C**k up of yet another ballot. Coincidence??

If Unite cant get all the members of it's chior to sing the same song, tainting a ballot, again...

...perhaps, for once, placing the clear reason for the ballot on the actual ballot itself might help prevent another repeat of this comedy.

Is there any reason to not do this, I know what words have to be included on the document but I'm not certain there is any regulation preventing additions.

Could someone not use the "Freedom of Information Act" to force BASSA to reveal their accounts. I have seen this used against British Waterways to good effect, or does it only work with government departments?

I've just read the comments from Juantrip re 'First Fleet'. For me it is interesting as I absolutely loathed the fact that suddenly I had become something called 'Legacy' Where did that come from? Whether we like it or not names conjure up concepts of ourselves and for me 'Legacy' has some negative conotations. When I read that posting from the originator mooting 'First Fleet' I totally disagree with his superiority conceptualisation it smacks too much of hostility,,,,,however,,,,, the actual term works better for me, its chronologically correct and doesn't make me feel 'a left over'.
Now I am not a union member, left 2 years ago. I can see how a label will now be taken and used in a negative manner. Recall how the St George's cross was 'stolen' by BNP in the 70's and 80's. (this isn't nearly as big as that) but if I now call myself 'first fleet' will I be tarred with the union brush.
In some ways a lot of this ongoing problem lies with this type of problem. When a company moves on if it doesn't take its staff with them how do those staff feel. A lot of people who did strike that I talk to feel, for want of a better word, abandoned.
I am happy and prepared to change, I actually like change, I also like being empowered and being aware that labels are a useful tool I am now 'First Fleet'.

FOI requests are only for public institutions such as Government, the MOD, NHS and the quangos that exist (hence British Waterways being included). Even then you can't be forced to reveal information that may be commercially sensitive.

FOI requests can't be used against private concerns like unions or companies in terms of them revealing information.

Bigby,

Why don't you get yourself a label and have 'Worldwide Fleet' or 'Eurofleet' on it.

That says just as much about who you are and is not offensive to anyone else.

I like you, do not like this lable of 'legacy' or 'heritage' but BA have never used these terms, they are only used on sites like this, predominantly by pilots and passengers picking up on these terms, they are not commonly used by cabin crew.

Be proud of who you are and don't fall into this trap of using labels to make others feel inferior or intimidated as this silly term 'first fleet' will do.

BG,

Normally I'd agree with you but on this one, that's not strictly true. The terms "legacy crew" and "first fleet" all have their origins in other cabincrew forums and are generated by existing crew members - viz the page after page of orders for "first fleet" crewtags elsewhere. That those phrases then get dragged into parlance over here is understandable but not limited exclusively to pilots and passengers.

MrB

I know that the phrase 'First fleet' has come from Bassa supporters but I don't think they coined the phrase 'Legacy' or 'Heritage' crew. It is because they hate 'legacy' and 'heritage' and because they want to have yet another symbol of solidarity that they have come up with this stupid phrase of 'First Fleet'.

I was just saying, why not use the names that our fleets, already have, on their baggage tags eg. 'Worldwide Fleet' or 'Eurofleet'.' Of course I realise that that is not what this is about but was just trying to show bigby, just how silly it all was.

If you are using it as a sign of your Union solidarity and 'bigby' was not saying that, then nothing I say will make any difference but if you are thinking of using the tags because you hate the term 'legacy' or 'heritage' then why not use our real fleet names!

Long haul, short haul, euro, or worldwide have always worked for me. Does what is says on the box.

I do agree with you BG re labels. I dont use either Legacy or heritage. I am w/w but sadly terms come into everyday parlance and whilst we may not always want that to be the case there it is. I suppopse to be honest I would not use any of these words (as I say W/W).

Simple solution to crew baggage labels boasting of belonging to a particular group - ban them. Give plenty of warnings that no tags are to used at all and then sack the bullies who use them.

Excellent post... KTF XXXX