Air Officer possibly misidentified

[rlsbutler]

Please see

Secret diary of a civil servant: This government is already leaking like a sieve | Secret diary of a civil servant | Politics | The Observer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/03/diary-civil-servant-liam-fox)

The officer with Liam Fox seems to be an Air Commodore, if I read the shoulder boards correctly.

A Google search for Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston only produces images of the chief of defence staff in the Royal Australian Air Force, a clean-shaven pilot.

Does anybody agree the Grauniad team has the wrong name ? If so, can anybody supply the correct name ?

****

The newspaper accepted the mistake by email on 5 October. New readers will find the photograph correctly naming ACM Simon Bryant. I had not realised how looooong those shoulder boards are ! RLSB

[The B Word]

Dude, the man in the picture is CinC Air Command - ACM Simon Bryant.

Looks like the papers have screwed up again!!!

[Archimedes]

Not only wrong Air Officer, but wrong Air Force to boot.... Oh dear...

[Argus]

Although Angus Houston holds the rank of ACM in the Royal Australian Air Force, he is the Chief of the Australian Defence Force -the most senior position in the Australian Defence Force - and a gentleman to boot.

See Chief of the Defence Force (http://www.defence.gov.au/cdf/index.htm)

[RookiePilot]

That's not even an Australian Air Force Officer, that's Bryant all right, he was a guest of honour at a dinner of ours a couple years back!!

[sisemen]

It's probably a deliberate 'leak' to inform the UK that, as the RAF is getting to dangerously low strength it is about to be absorbed into the RAAF as the junior partner :}

[glad rag]

Ex OC 43 Sqn RAF.
Navigator.
Was always going places.
No OBE??:E:E:E

[Roadster280]

MID with no attendant medal? What's that all about?

[CheapAsChips]

It's Simon Bryant - a top chap! No OBE - he's got a CBE. And the MID is in fact a QCVS or QCBA.

[Barksdale Boy]

Possibly the first time that the originator of this thread has been addressed as 'Dude'.

[philrigger]

;)

It is a QCBA awarded for Afghanistan in the 2002 Ops Hons List.

Phil.

[Tankertrashnav]

A nav ACM?

Would have posted earlier but have just come round after fainting.

[Wrathmonk]

phil

I think you meant QCVS ;). Clicky (http://www.gov-news.org/gov/uk/news/operational_honours_list/23274.html)(about half to two-thirds down the page).

Slight drift - gp capt to 4* in ~8 years ....:D

[Wander00]

That's some "navigation"!

[philrigger]

;)

My mistake. - Sorry.

[airsound]

A nav ACM?I hope he's enrolled in SODCAT and up to date with his wotsits
airsound

[Impiger]

I can confirm the Air Marshal is indeed a fully paid up member of SODCAT he bought me a beer only the other day .....:D

[davejb]

MID with no attendant medal? What's that all about?

All sorted apparently, but from what I recall Glen Macey (Capt on 206, later Sqn Ldr, then lost touch) wore an MID from Gulf 1 before the Gulf Medal was awarded....

[Tankertrashnav]

It was always intended that an MID emblem could be worn on its own after any medals. In 1947 The London Gazette published detailed rules for wearing MID emblems, and stated that if the recipient was not eligible for the appropriate campaign medal, he (sic) was to wear the emblem after any other medal ribbons.

It's difficult to see in what circumstances somebody could get an MID and yet not be entitled to the campaign medal, although I suppose it would be possible to arrive in theatre, do something to earn an MID and leave before serving the minimum qualifying period, but it seems pretty unlikely.

Incidentally until the rules were changed in 1994 (I think), the MID was the only award other than the Victoria and George Crosses which could be awarded posthumously.

btw = SODCAT?

[Geehovah]

Thats not the spoof badge "Angus" used to wear on 19 Sqn!!!

[kitwe]

Society of Directional Consultants and Allied Trades. The Air Marshal is a fully paid up member. He was one of my students at FY. If he was awarded a QCVSA, not MID, it is not necessarily awarded in conjunction with a campaign medal.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for that re SODCAT. Yes I knew about QCVSA, my old boss on 214 had one and it was the sole adornment on his No 1, back in the days when you could do a full career in the RAF and not pick up any campaign medals. Was just making the point that it's also theoretically possible to get an MID, without getting the associated campaign medal.

[Fifth_Columnist]

It is a QCVS, Gazetted in Oct 2002 so probably awarded for actions in the preceding 12 months. This appears to coincide with a period in his biography where he was Commander British Forces Oman and Commander of the DOBs at Seeb and Thumrait.

London Gazette (http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/56735/supplements/8/page.pdf)

[rlsbutler]

It was the QCVS on the photograph that got me to start this thread. On ACM Bryant’s bar of medals, the emblem is simply messy.

When I was young one only saw the QCVSA, as worn by Tankertrashnav’s former boss, separate from a medal ribbon. The MiD would always be mounted on a GSM or (among the older gentry) the 1945 Victory medal.

When I was briefly an ADC, I took a professional interest in the fact that the “semi-detached” emblem should be worn on a pretend medal ribbon matching the cloth of the underlying jacket. In my then circle, whether or not attached to full-size medals or miniatures, any of the Queen’s Commendations would have had to be re-dressed for pale blue, khaki, white and black backgrounds. More of a punishment than an award !

One can imagine a gaudy but correct civilian awardee choosing to take part in a Remembrance Day ceremony in a tartan jacket …

While Group Captain Bryant was being awarded his QCVS, Lt William Sasser USCG was awarded the AFC. Might the powers-that-be have started thinking in his case in terms of QCVSA and decided that the Americans would simply not have understood something so odd ?

Is anyone interested in a bit of a campaign to give these good people a proper medal ?

My own preference would be for the retrospective issue of the last commemorative medal to carry the appropriate leaf symbol. In civilian circles these have often been allocated as a poor man’s MBE. ACM Bryant wears the Golden Jubilee 2002 medal and, if my suggestion works, could simply transfer the emblem to its ribbon.

Comments ?

[philrigger]

;)

The MiD would always be mounted on a GSM or (among the older gentry) the 1945 Victory medal.


You mean the 1939-45 War Medal.



My own preference would be for the retrospective issue of the last commemorative medal to carry the appropriate leaf symbol. In civilian circles these have often been allocated as a poor man’s MBE. ACM Bryant wears the Golden Jubilee 2002 medal and, if my suggestion works, could simply transfer the emblem to its ribbon.


What if the recipient did not qualify for a commemorative medal ?

I think that you are on a loser.


Phil.

[Tankertrashnav]

Risbutler - I couldnt agree more that the present arrangement needs looking at, but I don't agree that putting the emblem on the most recent campaign medal would be appropriate - the holder of the QCVSA may never have taken part in that campaign. Personally I'd like to see a completely new medal. I don't know if the rather nice silver badge is still awarded to civilian recipients , maybe the military could have a medal which incorporated the design from the civil badge.

There's a good paper on these emblems here

https://www.sandhurstfoundation.org/files/user/those_impossible_emblems.pdf

and it contains an illustration of the civil badge, among others.

Philrigger, you are correct that the proper name for the medal referred to is the 1939-45 War Medal, but it was often referred to as the Victory Medal, probably a throwback to the Victory Medal issued at the end of the Great War.

[Wrathmonk]

If he was awarded the QCVS for Service in an Operational Theatre (as is suggested by the Gazette entry) then shouldn't it be mounted on his Afghanistan OSM?

The only reference I can find easily to hand is from JSP761 (http://ndm-pr.webs.com/jsp761%5B1%5D.pdf) dated May 08:

1204. Emblems for Level 4 awards (MiD, QCB, QCBA, QCVS) are to be worn on the ribbon of the medal for the campaign for which they were awarded. If a campaign medal has not been granted, the emblem is to be worn directly on the tunic after all medal ribbons. If the recipient has no medal ribbons, the emblem is to be worn in the position where a single ribbon would be worn.


I guess it comes down to whether the AFG OSM is considered a campaign medal or not.

Nothing like nit picking the CinC's dress code .... come on PSO - get on here and put us right ..... or not;)

[foldingwings]

Yep, a thoroughly nice bloke and well-deserved promotion and position now held. He was one of the few decent desk officers that I had throughout my career. His dad was an air marshal too I recall.

Foldie

[Climebear]

Wrathmonk

The simple explanaition could be that while he provided Valuable Service to ops in Afghanistan he may well have done this in a location that fell outside of the geographic limits of the OSM(Afghanistan) - at the CAOC (for instance).

That's my (non-PSO) guess.

[Pontius Navigator]

Yep, a thoroughly nice bloke and well-deserved promotion and position now held. He was one of the few decent desk officers that I had throughout my career. His dad was an air marshal too I recall.

Foldie

I retract.

Although as I study genealogy I have to say that one is the spitting image of the other and you are saying that there were three Bryants that made ACM?

The one I meant was Sqn Ldr CGI, later Stn Cdr, finally ACM Sir Derek at RAFG.

[QWIN]

Wrong parentage guys, not son of Doctor Death.

[foldingwings]

Ah, wrong lineage then. Thank God for that after what PN stated!

Foldie

[rlsbutler]

Philrigger

It is hard to believe that the awardee would not have been alive when the last commemorative was issued. I propose that he/she be awarded that medal retrospectively.

Of course you are right about the 1939-45 War Medal and I am not so old as to have made the mistake out of experience. Still, you knew what I meant …

Tankertrashnav

I agree about not putting the emblem in a campaign medal, except where already provided for – but I was proposing a (newly awarded if necessary, but previously issued) commemorative medal

Thanks for the Sandhurst reference. I had seen nothing of that sort and am glad that someone has given an authoritative expression to the problem. In case anyone on this thread still has any interest in the discussion, I would make two suggestions for when Col Tinson should ever modify his paper:

Being Mentioned in Despatches initially meant that the individual’s name had been brought to the attention of the authorities in London by the Commander at the time, in the despatch he had written at a significant break or at the conclusion of operations.

I cannot prove it at the moment, but I believe there was a real convention (if never official) in respect of WWII for the first emblem to be mounted on the War Medal ribbon (thanks again, Phil) and for subsequent emblems to take position to the left across the adjacent campaign medal ribbons. I do not think this story changes what Col T says about the case when actual medals are worn.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, this talk of MiD and being put on campaign medals begs a question.

When were the WW2 medals actually issued?

We know that the DSOs etc were awarded at the time but what of the campaign stars? Clearly the war medals came well after the war.

Would a seaman, for instance, put up the Atlantic Star ribbon as soon as he qualified, followed by the Italy Star as he transitted the Med and the Burma Star when he arrived?

[Tankertrashnav]

PN - As far as I am aware the first campaign star ribbon which was approved for wear at the time was that for the Africa Star, the qualifying period for which ran from 10 June 1940 to 12 May 1943. I have a photo of my father in North Africa some time in 1942 sporting this ribbon on his battledress. Next came the 1939-43 Star, which of course was subsequently renamed the 1939-45 Star, and this ribbon was being worn from 1943 onwards, together with that of the Africa Star if applicable. As far as I am aware none of the other campaign ribbons were authorised until after the war, but I stand to be corrected on this. Issue of the stars and medals themselves did not start until 1946 at the earliest - an HMSO pamphlet published in June of that year gave full details of the qualification periods etc for the various awards - and medals continue to be issued to the present day in the case of recipients who can prove that they never received them for various reasons.

One interesting point is that the ribbons were designed by HM King George VI and these generally have some symbolic meaning, eg yellow for the desert sand on the Africa Star etc.

[Old-Duffer]

For much of the war, only gallantry/distinguished service medals were worn, other than for pre-war campaigns or WWI.

Hamish Mahaddie - he of pathfinder fame - tells of going to the palace in mid-'43 where the King invested him with a DSO, DFC, AFC and Czech award. Afterwards, he repaired to a hostelry for a glass of fruit juice or whatever, where a woman said to him, something along the lines of: 'Young man, what are all those medals for'.

Mahaddie replies; 'I've no idea, madam, they were on the uniform when I bought it'.

As to: OTHER THINGS

Two weeks ago, I saw a sqn ldr wearing a QCVS on a piece of plain ribbon mounted ahead of all his other gongs. I thought things like a QCVS or something not related to a campaign was worn after all the other medals.

Have the rules on "where 2 wear the 'ware" changed with the changes introduced in about 1994?

O-D

[teeteringhead]

No O-D, the rules haven't changed - see AP 1358. The only possible (if very unlikely) circumstance that could put a QCVSA ahead of ribbons is if the ribbons were foreign - and of course ALL foreign awards come after all Brit ones.

I'll try and find a link to the rules - I think they are internet rather than intranet

Edited to add:

Found it! Annexes E & F of Chapter 8 of 1358, which is here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/964889F4_C3AB_9A3C_BA2550C49D7A67EA.pdf)

You need to scroll almost to the end of a long-ish pdf.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

;)

More thread creep.

It is hard to believe that the awardee would not have been alive when the last commemorative was issued. I propose that he/she be awarded that medal retrospectively.

Just suppose someone born in 1980, signed on the dotted line in 1998, aged 18 and was awarded a QCBA or QCVS in 2000. The previous commemorative medal was awarded in 1977 before he was born. Where would he wear his award until such time as a new commemorative award was made (In this case 2002) ?

I know this is hypothetical but rules must cover ALL circumstances.


The commemorative award previous to 1977 was the coronation medal in 1953. The next one is likely to be either;
The 60th anniversaary of the QE II accession or
The coronation of Prince Charles (or Prince William if QE II lasts for a lot longer).

Just a thought.


Aaron

[NUFC1892]

The previous commemorative medal was awarded in 1977 before he was born. Where would he wear his award until such time as a new commemorative award was made (In this case 2002) ?

I know this is hypothetical but rules must cover ALL circumstances.


The commemorative award previous to 1977 was the coronation medal in 1953. The next one is likely to be either;
The 60th anniversaary of the QE II accession or
The coronation of Prince Charles (or Prince William if QE II lasts for a lot longer).


The next is planned for the 60th anniversary in 2012, it has been promulgated somewhere.

[Old-Duffer]

... The Silver Jubilee Medal allocation was a farce, with an allocation of 1 per 33 service personnel and no detailed criteria, except air officers, stn cdrs and some other prominent personnel were outwith the limits.

The Golden Jubilee Medal set down the (imho) not unreasonable limit of 5 years minimum service but then excluded personnel of the RAF Reserve (CC) grouping who held a formal commission, wore the uniform, subject to the Air Force Act etc BUT were paid in a civil service grade - much bitterness amongst this group, particularly when it appeared that there was a certain reticence in some quarters to fight their corner!

What should the Diamond Jubilee criteria be?

Perhaps we need a new thread for this but I suggest, as a starter:

a. Trained strength or if a service limit required, 5 years unless in receipt of a campaign medal or has been awarded a gallantry award of Grade 3 or above for non-operational work.

b. To include reserves and auxiliaries of all persuasions, subject to completion of all attendance/bounty obligations.

NOW THEN :ooh: what about those now retired who have given - say - 30 years 'reckonable'!! Hence, they served Her Majesty but it's just the accident of birth that means their service won't be acknowledged.

SOLDIER magazine will have a field day with something like this!

Over to you ppruners, I'm going down the shelter, 'till it's all over!

O-D

[Tankertrashnav]

Whatever the criteria let's hope it's an improvement on the trashy bauble that is the 2002 Golden Jubilee medal. It appears to have been designed to make adjacent UN/NATO medals look almost respectable.

[rlsbutler]

AARON O'DICKYDIDO (7 Oct 21:36)

I simply propose the retrospective award of, for instance, the 1977 medal in the case you posit. Not having been alive at the time is just one of many reasons why the awardee was not originally awarded the medal. Being Brave or Valuable makes up for any such considerations.

Old-Duffer (today 06:31)

I was on a MOD(PE) outstation in 1977. The Superintendent wisely instituted a station ballot (as I remember it) which nominated a much-respected civilian contractor for the one Silver Jubilee medal allocated to the station. General acclamation. That was what I had in mind when I referred to the poor man’s MBE.

So I would narrow the criteria you suggest to:

Those who are invited to the big celebration (marchers, choir boys etc) and those doing service on the nominated day for which a campaign medal may be due.

Old hands, rather than 5-years-served: WOs I and II, majors and above, holders of one of the long-distance medals, officers who would have had a long-distance medal if there had been one for them.

Holders of any Queens Commendation or better, in recognition of my original thesis, rather than your Grade 3.

Reserve forces as above, noting that some of the long-distance medals may have shorter criteria than for the regulars.

No retirees (particularly not you or me), except that lots of civilians would rate a poor man’s MBE. Discussing their criteria really would be thread drift !

[sarpilot]

I think LT Sasser would have understood the difference between the two after 3 years with the SAR forces.

[Tankertrashnav]

I've just remounted a retired PO RN's medals for him in time for today's parade. He already had the GSM with clasp 'Malay Peninsula' and his Naval LS & GC. Now a very nice quality copy Silver Jublilee Medal 1977 sits between them. He is not entitled to this medal but has decided that as he was serving at the time he is just stretching a point. He certainly fits Risbutler's criteria for a retrospective award.

This is not something I would do for myself (I came out in January 1977 anyway, so could never have got the medal), but I dont really have much problem with others doing it if that's what they they want. I think this is a different thing to those Walts who claim gallantry and campaign medals to which they are not entitled, but others may disagree.

[Pontius Navigator]

Old hands, rather than 5-years-served: WOs I and II, majors and above, holders of one of the long-distance medals, officers who would have had a long-distance medal if there had been one for them.
At first I took issue with the phrase 'majors and above' as major seems to be a base rank in the Army whereas sqn ldrs and lt cdrs reach that rank much later.

As a long-distance award however you are really back to the '5-years-served' criteria albeit for a longer time like 12 years or so.

Then the RAF does not have WO II. They also have WO fast-tracked commissioned to flt lt who will, I expect on that criteria, already have a LS medal.

[Whenurhappy]

Caution - serious thread drift!....However,

TTN - over the years Ihave encountered chaps with some 'interesting' medals including some displaying self-purchased commemorative trinkets. Some people take great offence at these; for the most part I believe that they are harmless old fogeys who want to show what they did in their years Serving.

However, there is a collection of 'walts' that big themselves up with real campaign medals/clasps. If I have a few minutes, I read www.anzmi.net (http://www.anzmi.net) - an Australasian group who expose wannabees - and these wannabees are invariably guys in their 60s who have claimed to have been SF in 'Nam. Some succesfully manage to get veteran's benefits as well.

There's also a few ex UK guys who claim dark deads on behalf of HMG; of course Arrse has a veritable Pantheon of walts. Last night I watched - albeit briefly - 'the Battle of Arnhem' where a group of teens had to live and fight like the Paras. This included mixing it with re-enactment walts, including SS paras. Hmmmmmm. Wouldn't let them around my kids.

PS Simion Bryant is a top bloke, by the way (thread back on track!)

[rlsbutler]

TTN - your PO friend has taken a liberty with which I for one am not comfortable. I might have done what you did, to oblige a friend, but I would have kept quiet about it. He ought to remember that he would not have done this while he was serving. He is wearing his medals this week for those who can do nothing to change whatever they were allocated.

You will know of the Pingat Jasa Malaysia (PJM). Many thousands of ex-servicemen have accepted this medal from the Malaysian government for service during Confrontation. The medal itself is a most impressive production, the presentation ceremony has been very proper and enjoyable and we recipients have been proud to receive it in a circumstance of mutual respect ... except ... our own government, with a curl of its lip, only very slightly approves.

The MOD tells us that for us to wear the PJM on the left breast would be offensive to Her Majesty and, in so doing, briskly insults the head of state of a friendly nation. So, I assume, almost all of us put the medal away unworn. The MOD is wrong but we live with that, remembering bigger decisions they have got more disgracefully wrong.

[Tankertrashnav]

Yes I've seen plenty of PJMs and have mounted quite a few for guys whose attitude has been "sod the MOD, I'm retired and I'll wear my medals where I want". I very much doubt if Her Majesty would be offended, but of course I may be wrong there.

They are a bugger to mount, though, as the ribbon is quarter of an inch wider than the usual British width, and therefore they have to be squeezed on to standard brooch bars with a bit of judicious overlapping!

[jindabyne]

Very well done Tanker

[BEagle]

Several of us also received Saudi and Kuwaiti medals for service in GW1 - together with a scruffy little piece of paper from some faceless penguin at Binnsworth which read:
1. The enclosed Saudi "Liberation of Kuwait" Medal has been awarded by the Government of Saudi Arabia for your part in the Liberation of Kuwait. The medal is commemorative and may not be worn. Only the exact number of medals has been issued, therefore there are no spares available to replace lost or damaged medals.

2. Certificates to accompany the medal have been delayed due to unforeseen circumstances, as a result, they will be forwarded separately in due course.

and1. The enclosed Kuwaiti Liberation Medal has been awarded by the Kuwaiti Government for your part in the Liberation of Kuwait. The medal is commemorative and may not be worn. Only the exact number of medals has been issued, therefore there are no spares available to replace lost or damaged medals.


However, although some bauble entitled 'The Sultan of Oman's Glorious 20th National Day medal' was authorised for wear, no UK servicemen have been authorised to wear their Saudi or Kuwaiti medals. Why? Other nations' personnel were certainly permitted to do so.....

[Tankertrashnav]

Only the exact number of medals has been issued, therefore there are no spares available to replace lost or damaged medals.


What a load of rubbish. I've had any number of these pass through my hands over the years, all unissued. I've got one on eBay at the moment, and can't get a £4.99 bid for it! That's what collectors think of the Saudi and Kuwaiti baubles!

Different story for the British Gulf War Medal, though ;)

[sarpilot]

I think LT Sasser would have understood the diff between the AFC and the QCVS after 3 years flying with the RAF.