Aero Engineering Degrees / University pilot courses (Merged)

[Dis.I.Like]

I want to eventually become a Pilot. I intenn on doing Aeronautical Engineering at a highly rated uni since my A level grades will be straight A's inc Maths and Physics. After completing my Degree i'll hopefully get a job with decent pay with which i can start paying for all the various license etc needed and then when i have them all i can look for a job as a pilot but at the same time have a decent paid job so that i am not frustrated by the lack of opportunities. How does that sound guys? What are the license need btw... PPL, CPL and ATPL?

[EK4457]

What to do at university?

Get drunk and sleep with lots of young women.

but at the same time have a decent paid job so that i am not frustrated by the lack of opportunities

Graduate jobs nearly always offer dreadfully low pay. Considering you spent a minimum of 5 years study and at least £30,000 qualifying for and getting a degree, your less than £20,000 (on average) salary will be a poor return.

The idea behind the graduate job is that after several years you will be useful to the company (because you are a complete spare part at first) and start to searn better money as your career develops.

Since you want to start flight training straight away, this would be a financial cock up to say the least. In short, getting a degree, the associated debt and graduate job in order to fund your flying is a ****e idea.

On a positive note, you will have a career to fall back on should the flying not work out. But remember, you certainly do NOT need a degree to have a good career, despite what your careers advisor told you.

What are the license need btw... PPL, CPL and ATPL?

This is basic stuff and you really should have read up on this before planning your next 7 years of life and earmarking over £100,000.

You will need a CPL with MEIR and an MCC these days. Make provisions for a TR course too.

Enjoy your youth. Although it is wasted on the young!

EK

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree with MK, but would also add that unless you rapidly develop some good research skills and ability to write clear English in the next year or so, you'll get torn apart limb from limb by most Aeronautical Engineering lecturers - or at least they'll make quite sure that you don't make it into the second year.

Your maths and physics skills are only a small part of what you need on an Engineering degree!

Look at the careers guides from the RAeS, BWPA and doubtless many other organisations. And do a lot of reading - it's a reasonable route to starting to grasp what clear written English should look like.

G

[Dis.I.Like]

Weird that, I managed 95% in my AS level History exam and yet I do not know how to write clear English. If I'd wanted any smart ass comments I would've posted on Yahoo Answer's not here.

And MK you say that on average a graduate earns less than £20k. On which average? The average Imperial College graduate earns almost £29k, and even the average Bath graduate earns around the £24k mark. According to the Times anyway.

Was this reply written clearly enough and researched well enough for you Genghis?

[mad_jock]

Haaaa. You have just lectured Genghis one of our resident Uni Lecturers who helps out with academic discussions.

He is just the sort of bloke who will be vetting your UCAS applications and also conducting your pre course interviews.

I suggest you do go and ask Yahoo Answers cause after that reply the folk that do have the knowledge you want won't be answering you.

And before you bring it up we don't respect you or your opinions we just think your a young knob that has a whole load of growing up to do.

PS Don't bother with that "your being immature" crap that doesn't wash here either.

['India-Mike]

I guess you've answered your own questions - go to Imperial College as their graduates have a higher average starting salary than even Bath; Bath as your second choice. Then either save for integrated training or go down the modular route while working as a graduate.

Alternatively start applying to the likes of CTC or Oxford Aviation, or wait for the next round of FlyBe MPL interviews. That approach will get you to the RHS of something more quickly than the approach you outlined in post 1without anywhere near the debt level of someone who goes to Uni, leaves well in debt and then adds to it with further debt from integrated training.

Genghis was simply offering constructive advice based on his experience as an academic, professional engineer and pilot. He's the sort of person to take advantage of on these forums; not lose. I could count on the fingers of one hand the academics who are practising engineers and professional pilots in the UK; and he's one of them.

[ProfChrisReed]

Weird that, I managed 95% in my AS level History exam and yet I do not know how to write clear English. If I'd wanted any smart ass comments I would've posted on Yahoo Answer's not here.

And MK you say that on average a graduate earns less than £20k. On which average? The average Imperial College graduate earns almost £29k, and even the average Bath graduate earns around the £24k mark. According to the Times anyway.

Was this reply written clearly enough and researched well enough for you Genghis?

So you've proved you can do it - compare it with your first post.

This was valuable lesson No. 1 - to those a generation or more older than you, the use of language in your first post suggests that you are careless and not very bright. Think of these people as Employers. Don't alienate them.

Valuable lesson No. 2 is also present in the replies: if you can't be bothered to do any research before asking, and thus frame your questions more precisely, then you're almost certainly not suitable Employee material. There were two pieces of research you should have undertaken: (a) discovering what qualifications you would need for your proposed aviation career - 10 minutes via Google would have answered this, and you could then have asked more pertinent questions; and (b) the nature of the forum you were posting to - had you read a few of the threads you would (or should) have realised that your posting would annoy those whose answers you sought.

I know all this seems harsh, but school insulates you from the realities of life. Imagine you are a potential employer sifting 500 applications. Those whose first paragraph reads like your initial post are rejected without reading further - you cannot spend 30 minutes to read the rest and deduce that this person might be worth seeing. If you want to be taken seriously, you must make the effort to connect with your audience.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

I'm about to have a break down reading the downright rude posts 'wannabe's' are coming out with on these forums lately! Respect those that have worked their backsides off to be where they are and are pretty humble about it, they're the ones that will teach you A LOT !!!

This is not "MSN".

[Dis.I.Like]

Thank you ProfChrisReed and India-Mike for the constructive replies. Guess my first post was not written nearly as clearly as it should've been.

And Sir Herbert, what exactly has 'MSN' got to do with anything? Is it possible that you're stereotyping me having seen my age? Well, how foolish of you. Respect goes both ways.

[Mikehotel152]

Weird that, I managed 95% in my AS level History exam and yet I do not know how to write clear English.

An indictment on the standard of A-Levels these days or was it a multiple choice examination? :p On a serious note, it is an indication that the education system is failing to produce young people who are willing to put effort into their written English. Eric Blair will be turning in his grave.

Dis.I.Like, you ought to have done some basic research before asking your questions, but all is not lost. Have a look at the sticky at the top of this thread regarding frequently asked questions. It is jam-packed with information.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

My "MSN" reference is simply because whenever I read an article in the paper about some people getting bullied online it's usually through that! Your actions on that are hardly ever accounted for, sadly, I'm not making any age stereotype in fact there is a bloke my age that I'm friends with who regularly goes on about being on MSN talking to aeroplaney people I hope. :)

What nonsense this is everyone thinking their are being victimised these days. Laughable :)

[Dis.I.Like]

Still do not understand, but never mind. This thread has far outlived its purpose and is in danger of becoming a slanging match. Adios.

And if its laughable then please, laugh as much as you like.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

This is all you need to look at: http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/131649-archive-reference-threads-posting-guidelines-read-before-you-post-question.html

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

One small point - that's an awfully hard degree that has awfully little practical application to the job of airline pilot. Dividing by 3 and multiplying by 0.8 is pretty much all the Maths I ever need at work...

Consider a course that may contain girls.


WWW

[Tinstaafl]

Massuer at a catwalk model's club?

['India-Mike]

Further to WWW's post - my university looks for AAAA or AAABB in Scottish Highers; or AAB at A-level. We still have a first year chop rate approaching 40%, average examination marks per subject of 40-45% (just as well the pass rate is only 40%). While so many A's (or predicted A's) is laudible, it is absolutely no guarantee you'll make it. We've never seen any correlation between entry point score and success.

In summary? School qualifications no longer prepare young people for university. They're just a means of filtering.

Good luck

[Groundloop]

We still have a first year chop rate approaching 40%, average examination marks per subject of 40-45% (just as well the pass rate is only 40%).

I would think it's about time to look at changing your teaching style to be able to handle the lower entry standard of today!:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

A few passing thoughts:

- Many years ago, apart from the usual 5 A levels, I'd got very good grades in English at O and AO level (roughly equivalent to the modern AS) and was already paying for my expensive hobbies as a part time writer (which I still do). And, I got pulled apart limb from limb by the "old school" engineers charged with educating me for the poor standards of my written English; unfortunately the people teaching English in schools now are the people I went to school with so the standards there have got poorer - however the people teaching engineering in university are greybeards like myself and India-Mike have become.

- In the Times world university rankings, Imperial College is currently the 9th highest rated university in the world (sandwiched between Berkely and Yale). It is hardly surprising that their graduates attract above average starting salaries.

- However, I think that Dis.I.Like is a little closer to reality on mean graduate salaries than some others here - the UK mean is about £24k. (reference) (http://www.salarytrack.co.uk/average-graduate-salary.html); of course that's for the proportion who get graduate jobs - a fair number don't in the current market so the reality of salary for graduates is probably nearer £18-£20k.

- On the other hand, graduates now are graduating with around £30k of debt, so living comfortably whilst paying that back on £22-£26k graduate salary won't leave much for flight training of around another £35k to CPL/IR/Multi/MCC that you'll need if you want an airline job.

- Aviation, as a profession, runs on criticism. Despite working at opposite ends of the UK, India-Mike and I know each other fairly well and I'd count him a friend, but at various times we've each been in the position of formally assessing the other's professional work and we've both been quite vicious. Neither of us have ever taken it personally, and we continue to get on fine. This is an attitude that is absolutely essential to survival in this industry - whether as an engineer, pilot, or academic. It is part of what we call CRM.

G

[mad_jock]

Ground loop I had a couple of mates in the OTC doing that course who had to move onto other courses which they did very well in I might add.

Aero courses requires a level of maths understanding which is way above the other Engineering disciplines you have to know it and be able to apply it not just trot out some answers in an exam. There are more than one or 2 Aero Profs out there with hard core Maths degrees. Jim Boyle is the same in FEA Mech Eng circles.

Mech Eng when I worked as an RA had similar drop out rates but maybe not quite as high and they had similar grades for intake.

Engineering is a bit of a weird one, some people have it from birth and others can be trained in it, and others just don't get it (But can still come out with high grades). Students come along thinking they are doing a cool course and then get hit with 35 contact hours a week, 9am lectures, 2-3 lab reports every week, project work and at the end of all that formal exams.

They are put into Halls with a mish mash of other courses some of which have 10 contact hours and never a lecture before lunch. Some of the more talented students can go out on the razz every other night, be members of the OTC, rugby club and still find time for scuba diving. But alot of them can't and they also don't have the self discipline to self study. It doesn't help in Scotland there were alot of us aged 17 when we started and graduated when 21. I think the English Uni's the average age is higher both starting and finishing.

But we are talking about Courses that are in the top 10 of there type in the UK. A 2.2 at India-mikes establishment in the engineering circles in the UK would have a higher employment value than a 1st from say Paisely or Napier.

Apparently these days it is the right of everyone to have a degree if they so wish. Thank goodness though there are still some establishments who don't dumb down to the lowest common denominator and still have a reputation for producing a quality product and will boot the person out if they arn't making the grade.

[Groundloop]

mad_jock, you have taken my comment completely the wrong way.

You have to make allowances for the modern school output. At my university we put a LOT of effort into additional Maths lectures and tutorials to bring the first year Aero (and other engineering) students up to a workable standard before things get much tougher in year 2 - even the old "grey-beards" like myself realise why we all have to work MUCH harder these days.

[mad_jock]

Sorry for taking it the wrong way. But if you don't mind I will leave the reply anyway so any one thinking of doing Aero because its sounds cool but they want to be a pilot in the long run might have second thoughts.

Personally I don't see why Uni's should pick up the pieces of a crap secondary education system. And why should they take resources from the core undergrad courses to give remedial tutorials.

If the output is that bad, start setting entrance exams if you can't trust the points system. And personally I would also start discounting certian subjects from the grades lists. And if required run summer schools which the little cherubs have to pay for pre entry exam.

[Genghis the Engineer]

A lot of universities now offer Foundations of Engineering (http://www.brunel.ac.uk/courses/ug/cdata/f/foundationsofengineering) years for students with the wrong, but okay A-levels (or the right A-levels, but not quite good enough grades), doing basically a year of maths, physics and engineering science with a minimum pass (50% I think normally) to then gain entrance into the first year of engineering degrees.

I wonder if we continue to go down the road we have, with "basketweaving" A-levels like "Critical Thinking", and many maths A-level syllabi now having dropped calculus (which I personally find incredible to the point of criminality) that a majority of new engineering students will need the foundations year, as well as the final MEng year for those shooting for CEng.

The problem is that will then mean 5 years out of school before they ever start being trained by an industry grown-up. This is arguably much too long.


I actually think that Jock's last point is spot on - the Universities (or maybe ECUK or the RAeS) should start setting their own degree entry examination - do away with A-levels, or make it an "as well" as Oxford do. The kids are no more stupid than we were, and if there is a target to educate to, the schools will start teaching to it.

G

[Dis.I.Like]

There's no doubt that the standard of A levels is getting poorer... I'll be the first to admit that. Not only are A levels getting easier, so too are GCSE's and now its a situation where what used to me 'GCSE' Maths decades ago involved quite a bit of work from the first module of AS level Maths. And today's 'Further Maths' was in fact part of the normal Maths A level.

In short the standard of education has dropped by a year, if that makes sense? But I've been taking Further Maths in the hope that the step up will be that bit easier.

And if I choose to get sponsored by the Army in uni I'll be eligible to a bursary of 4k/year. Now seen as the government grant will cover for tuition fees, my only debt will be whatever money i need on top of the £4k for accommodation. Maybe another £3k a year? That'll amount to a debt of £12- £15k over the course length of 4 years.

On graduating I'll get paid 24.5k for a year of training at Sandhurst. After the training is complete I will be on pay of at least 29.5K/year for a minimum period of 3 years. Well that's according to the army careers website anyway.

And sorry Genghis for taking your comment the way I did.

['India-Mike]

Groundloop - you are right, we do need to change. It has been suggested that we (i) have multi-choice examinations in first year; (ii) don't have any first year exams, examine in second year; (iii) assess by coursework rather than exam. The target is 85% retention after 4 years. Compounding, that means a chop rate of 5% per annum. Yes, maybe.

But the education system is another thread in its own right. Dis, you should try to get flying if that's what you want to do. If you want a degree go to uni. However.....

....if I may badly paraphrase Lord Trenchard; 'gentlemen you can fly or you can f$%k - but you cannot f$%k and fly'

[mad_jock]

Unfortunatley it does make sense Dis. the standard dropping by a year.

And don't worry about being a prat been there done it myself many a time.

PPrune is a funny old beast. There was a young lad came on once and asked a question on vortex shedding on supersonic deltas for an aged 14 school project. Within 2 pages we had John Farley (test pilot for harrier), the test pilot for the CAA and the fleet Captain of concorde discussing aerodynamics of it all. Bit over my head (and i would hope the 14 year old as well but you never know) but bloody interesting. On the rotary side of things Nick Lappos test pilot used to again spend his time educating the masses.

You have access here to people/knowledge you wouldn't even dream of normally getting access to.

[EK4457]

Dis.I.Like,

glad you seem to have changed your attitude. You'll get an awful lot more from PPRUNE when you come across as being good chap with enthusiasm.

I'd start to really look at the many ways of getting what is known as a 'frozen ATPL' because it will probably take you a while to get a feel for the system and choose what is right for you. For this, the search function on PPRUNE will keep you busy for weeks. It's all here.

On the subject of your uni plan, I still say its is a silly way of funding training. If you really want to go to uni, can afford it, and are seriously considering another (degree related) career then go for it. However, look at this very realistic comparison;

If you finish A levels and get (for example) an apprentiship with an engineering comapny you could well be earning a graduate salary by the age of 21/22. You could save £10k over the previous 3/4 years. Compare that with a graduate who is on similar money but £20k of debt. You are roughly £30k better off by 22 years old. Thats a CPL right there.

As said previously, the idea behind a graduate scheme is that you will be better off eventually, but the 'break even' point is many years down the line. Possibly decades. It is not a way to make short term cash.

I went to uni and got a 'top' graduate job. Soon after I met a good friend from school who left at 16 to become a joiner. He was earning nearly twice what I was. And I had £22k of debt.

Given the chance again, I'd definately NOT go to uni, despite the fun i had.

Just out of interest,

Ghengis said

many maths A-level syllabi now having dropped calculus

Is this true?!

EK

[Genghis the Engineer]

I checked this out - and yes.

Most A-level syllabi now are divided into modules with the schools have a choice over which they deliver. In some, calculus is a module that schools can choose not to deliver.

So, the universities now are starting to have to check which modules students have done in A level maths, not just the grade.

More common is schools who have dropped the mechanics module, which would be equally serious except that thankfully this material is still covered in A level physics. Usually - some schools are starting to drop that for some of the less useful but more fashionable options such as nuclear physics.

G

[Torque Tonight]

if I choose to get sponsored by the Army

I think it's the Army who will do the choosing! :ok:

You've set yourself some very high targets: Imperial Aero, RMAS, pro pilot. Good luck. I can say with the benefit of experience that it will be a long and tough journey - I followed almost exactly that path albeit with a blue uniform. You will have to work harder than you ever have before, and there will be setbacks along the way, but if you make it (and that is not a given) you will rightly feel a great sense of achievement. There are quicker and easier routes to the flight deck but I'm glad I did it my way.

A few top tips that I strongly believe in:

Spelling and grammar isn't just for special occasions. Most people of professional calibre knock out the Queen's English by default, all the time, without it being any particular effort. Txt spk and lazy English is generally very negatively received in the institutions you are targetting.

Sometimes you just have to wind your neck in and play the game. You may think that the person assessing, interviewing, instructing or examining you is an out of touch old fool with an attitude problem and the wrong way of doing things. If you want to be successful you'll need to play be his rules. If you expect them to adapt to yours you'll be in for a disappointment.

First impressions count more than you would believe - even those that you think are informal, unassessed and off the record. Those that make a bad impression don't get an interview / callback / offer.

Don't take these as specific criticisms of you - they are just a few thoughts that will increase your chances of getting what you want (but are often not appreciated by people in your age group).

[Genghis the Engineer]

the person assessing, interviewing, instructing or examining you is an out of touch old fool with an attitude problem and the wrong way of doing things

We often are, but we're still in charge!

G

[turbulentmonkey]

Got to agree with the posters above. Im at uni myself, got a year to go. Aim to graduate in the summer and start ATPL's as soon as possible. For this to be possible I need a LOT more hours and a LOT more money (to fund CPL after GS). I would say if all you want to do is fly for a living, get good A Levels/Highers then get a job to earn some money for a few years. If your working in a crappy job with the aim of flying commercially, there's your motivation to be sensible with it, to save up,and to resist drinking it all away :yuk:

A degree does look good on your CV but it does have an effect on your finances if you need money to fly commercially. Just my thoughts

monkey

[Scott Duch]

I'm studying Aeronautical at Glasgow University, and it's a big challenge to say the least. Completed my 1st year with a GPA of 14.17 which was deemed as a 'good solid year' by my advisor of studies. Going into 2nd year there are a few topics that I have studied in my final years of secondary school which help but the maths is a big step up from the 1st year level maths we got taught.

I applied to Glasgow and got made an offer within a week or so. There were no interviews as such.

Taking a subject such as Aeronautical Engineering at university is a very big challenge but I like a challenge and I like push myself and this I believe drives me forward to revise and knuckle down. I felt school had got me to an appropriate level to begin my degree and coupled with good lecturers in 1st year I felt I did a pretty solid job. :)

[Genghis the Engineer]

I applied to Glasgow and got made an offer within a week or so. There were no interviews as such.

In an ideal world, all universities would interview all applicants. The reality is that staff nowadays are so busy that applications are mostly assessed on the UCAS form alone, and even the personal statement isnt universally used in the process.

Which does mean it's important that any prospective student should make sure that they find out as much about the university they're applying to themselves - particularly take any opportunity to visit and meet staff and existing students.

G

['India-Mike]

I was interviewed - by Dr Arthur Babister no less.

I first suggested many years ago, and have on occassion since then, that we ought to re-introduce interviews. But apparently there are too many applicants; a number of us volunteered to do the interviewing, but still the answer was no.

You reap what you sow....hopefully it'll all be over for me soon and I won't have to bother any more:E

[Genghis the Engineer]

I was interviewed - by Dr Arthur Babister no less.

I first suggested many years ago, and have on occassion since then, that we ought to re-introduce interviews. But apparently there are too many applicants; a number of us volunteered to do the interviewing, but still the answer was no.

You reap what you sow....hopefully it'll all be over for me soon and I won't have to bother any more:E

Either this means you're hoping to do so well out of a certain project that it'll buy you out of teaching, or you're off to start island hopping for Loganair? (Either way, I hope you'll still be available to torture/examine the occasional PhD student for me :cool: ).


At a certain establishment, I succeeded in forcing through mandatory interviews for students doing the combined flying degree - partly on grounds of the extra fees they'd be paying, and partly on grounds of knowing how important it was to be sure that the students would be pretty darned dedicated on such a course.

I was certainly interviewed back when, I think by the good Prof Robin A East (now there's a set of initials to conjur with).

G

[mad_jock]

At a certain establishment, I succeeded in forcing through mandatory interviews for students doing the combined flying degree

At another establishment they started interviews. And found that they had a greater uptake in offers.

The level of average quals also went up.

Seemed to work that the students belived that the more hoops you had to jump through the better the Uni and the course. Maybe an exam would have a similar effect.

The academics all saw it as a baw ache, because realistically nobody ever failed the interview. Although in one or 2 cases someone that had maybe a point or 2 low on the quals side of things got a look in where as they would not have before. Although it did stop one really weird bloke starting.

Also as well they started doing a day of team building exercises. Which apart from an oppertunity for the younger RA's to perv at the fresher girlies seemed to sort out alot of the intial reluctance in labs to work together.

[abra]

If you are determined to become a pilot any CV you produce should reflect that determination. I wish you luck doing AeroEng,to my mind it's a tough mathematical based course which is rather 'dry'. University should be fun so my own feeling would be that AeroEng is a bit over the top. Any science/eng based course would do. It might also be a good idea to do something at Uni that is useful if, horror of horrors,you failed in the flying game(have you had a class 1 medical yet, for example?) What you could consider adding whilst doing a degree is the University Air Squadron. That would show focus if seen on a CV..perhaps the RAF would sponsor you. RMAS,OTC and playing at being a pongo might look off target.(I haven't read all the posts so perhaps I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick)
It was a long time ago and things have changed,but I was promised a UAS slot dependant on medical before I got to my Uni..I had pestered the CO so much,he gave in (thanks Sqn Ldr Williamson).

[WillingPilot]

Hello!

Just doing my A Levels in the United Kingdom then after that I'd like to do a BEng - Aerospace Engineering.

Is it worth doing that for four years, I'd like to become a Pilot.

['India-Mike]

See here, and various other places too.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/429481-what-do-university.html

If you want to be a pilot, be a pilot - not an engineer. Me? I wanted to be an engineer and pilot, so I went out and got the lot. But it's not to everybody's taste or needs.

[WILCO.XMG]

Exactly,

In aviation a degree is useless.

If you want to go into aviation, (and pilot in particular), only two things will help you get there.

Licences and Experience.

As above said, if you want to be a Pilot don't be an Engineer.

[Genghis the Engineer]

At another establishment they started interviews. And found that they had a greater uptake in offers.

The level of average quals also went up.

Seemed to work that the students belived that the more hoops you had to jump through the better the Uni and the course. Maybe an exam would have a similar effect.

The academics all saw it as a baw ache, because realistically nobody ever failed the interview. Although in one or 2 cases someone that had maybe a point or 2 low on the quals side of things got a look in where as they would not have before. Although it did stop one really weird bloke starting.

Also as well they started doing a day of team building exercises. Which apart from an oppertunity for the younger RA's to perv at the fresher girlies seemed to sort out alot of the intial reluctance in labs to work together.

I'm guessing that we were at different establishments, but that was almost exactly our experience - except that we did have the ability to weed out a few each year who looked great on their UCAS form but when you met them clearly had absolutely no interest in aviation, or in engineering - just thought it all sounded a bit glamorous, and we and they were better off kept separate.

G

[mad_jock]

Yep different Uni not to far away from India Mike.

I think the weird bloke ended up over his way to be arrested on some sex charge half way through 1st year.

[Torque Tonight]

WILCO.XMG, regarding your bold advice on degrees and commercial pilot employment, for the benefit of full disclosure, would it be correct to say that:

1. You do not yet have any pilot licence.
2. You do not yet have a degree.
3. You do not yet work in commercial aviation.

Anyone can dish out advice on pprune. Those seeking it should be very careful which advice they heed. And don't worry, I'm not just getting at you, we see it all the time.

[WILCO.XMG]

Torque Tonight,

I apologize if you feel I have distributed advice carelessly. And you are correct in stating I have not yet accomplished any of the three things you have listed.

However I was in the same predicament as the Poster WillingPilot is in now. And only through being involved in the industry can you get answers, and I feel I have experienced enough to voice my opinion and provide advice.

I would just like to say to WilingPilot to send me a private mail with any specific questions and I will reply using my relevant, however limited knowledge.

Regards,

WILCO.XMG

[Roadrunner Once]

WWW said:
One small point - that's an awfully hard degree that has awfully little practical application to the job of airline pilot. Dividing by 3 and multiplying by 0.8 is pretty much all the Maths I ever need at work...

Consider a course that may contain girls.

This is good advice. If you want to be a pilot, why train as an engineer? Aero Eng is one of the toughest, most time-consuming degree courses going and, if you don't see yourself ever using the degree (ie. working as an engineer), the motivation to haul oneself into the multitude of lectures and study for the eye-watering number of degree exams can be extremely hard to muster when the students' union bar is beckoning.

I speak from experience - a large number of those on my course who were just interested in doing something 'aviation-y' as a road into flying (like me), or who thought it looked cool in the prospectus, didn't make it to the final year. Those who passed generally ended up becoming engineers, because that is what they had started out to do. I wish someone had imparted WWW's advice to me 16 years ago. Including the bit about girls.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't take a degree that you don't intend to use, there are plenty of fun, interesting and less demanding degrees that fill that bill. Aero Eng, however, is best left to the prospective aeronautical engineer.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Broadly, roadrunner, I agree with you - I'd just insert one word into your post:

This is good advice. If you want to be an airline pilot, why train as an engineer? Aero Eng is one of the toughest, most time-consuming degree courses going and, if you don't see yourself ever using the degree (ie. working as an engineer), the motivation to haul oneself into the multitude of lectures and study for the eye-watering number of degree exams can be extremely hard to muster when the students' union bar is beckoning.

There are other jobs where the technical degree is really quite useful. Service careers (Army, Navy, Air Force) often jump between flying and management jobs - and the latter can encompass engineering. Very few of the military test pilots coming out of the Test Pilot Schools now don't have aero degrees, nor the "home grown" TPs at places like Cessna and Piper. A few oddball researchers like myself, India-Mike and others at places like Cranfield and Embry-Riddle use, and need, both our engineering degrees and our commercial licences.

It is all about managing your own career. If your sole objective is to be in the left hand seat of a four engine civil jet - you are absolutely right. If your objective is to be a career flying instructor, then you may well want a degree - but something like business management would be far more useful. But there are career paths that want both.

So, I'd advice anybody aged about 16 and planning their next 5-10 years to think about the career paths they want and plan accordingly. That *might* include an aero-eng degree, it may well not. But, as I think we've all agreed, it's not an obvious route to simply become an airline pilot.

G

[Roadrunner Once]

A good point Genghis, I hope that I wasn't putting anyone off who might have a genuine interest in applying the degree at some point and I should have acknowledged that it can be relevant in spheres beyond the obvious. I just believe that anyone considering taking a degree in Aero Eng should be aware of what they are getting themselves into - it's a very tough course. If your intention is simply to pass three years at uni on your way to the right hand seat then there are much more agreeable ways of doing that.

[Genghis the Engineer]

A good point Genghis, I hope that I wasn't putting anyone off who might have a genuine interest in applying the degree at some point and I should have acknowledged that it can be relevant in spheres beyond the obvious. I just believe that anyone considering taking a degree in Aero Eng should be aware of what they are getting themselves into - it's a very tough course. If your intention is simply to pass three years at uni on your way to the right hand seat then there are much more agreeable ways of doing that.


And these days, less financially draining.

G

[Scott Duch]

I aim to become an airline pilot once/if I graduate with my Aero degree....You are right however, the course does lack female company! :* Psychology is the better option on that front!

On a more serious note to what is being said above. I completely agree 100% that Aero is tough and demanding compared to your average course, and that if you're intending to get into the LHS of an airliner it may not be the best option due to the fact you won't be using your degree compared to someone who'll become a full-time engineer, resulting in a lack of comitment. I can totally understand this however, I see myself falling into the above situation yet I feel my commitment is still very high. :ok: Yes, when exam time arrives it bogs you down but I just try and think of the end result and it's worked for me so far. I'm just hoping 2nd year is as rewarding as 1st year!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I aim to become an airline pilot once/if I graduate with my Aero degree....You are right however, the course does lack female company! :* Psychology is the better option on that front!

On a more serious note to what is being said above. I completely agree 100% that Aero is tough and demanding compared to your average course, and that if you're intending to get into the LHS of an airliner it may not be the best option due to the fact you won't be using your degree compared to someone who'll become a full-time engineer, resulting in a lack of comitment. I can totally understand this however, I see myself falling into the above situation yet I feel my commitment is still very high. :ok: Yes, when exam time arrives it bogs you down but I just try and think of the end result and it's worked for me so far. I'm just hoping 2nd year is as rewarding as 1st year!


1st year is usually horrible - it should get much better in the 2nd year when you actually get to study hard core aero-eng subjects.

G

[Scott Duch]

Sure is! Aerodynamics is interesting, sort of like another maths class but with interesting examples!:p I enjoyed Thermodynamics in 1st year and being taught aero propulsion with thermodyanmics it's again becoming rather interesting. Shame about the resurgence of Matlab after Christmas. Oh god.:{

[mad_jock]

I didn't like matlab either.

If anyone ever mentions finite volume, matlab and project in the same sentence run like :mad:

[Genghis the Engineer]

t'was all Fortran and Pascal in my day. I dallied briefly with mathcad, but nowadays have just learned how to make Excel do magic tricks!

G

['India-Mike]

It's still Fortran as far as I'm concerned for serious work. The only reason we don't give it to modern undergraduates is that Matlab is much easier:E

[Scott Duch]

I guess I better dig out the Matlab books or just get my dad to give me a crash course. It was a year since we did Matlab, it's going to be a LONG semester! :\