Shared Hours (IFR+VFR)

[dovish]

Hello all,

I have a JAA CPL\IR(A) license and I would like to build some extra hours in the United States. I was told that it was possible to do shared hours where there are two pilots where one goes "under the hood" (IFR) and the other behaves as a safety pilot flying VFR. For that matter both pilots would log hours simultaneously.

However I would like to know if those hours would be accepted by JAA as real hours being flown for both pilots.

Thanks in advance and congrats for this wonderful forum.

Regards.

[riciardi]

JAA does not accept it and CAA´s are aware of that scheme. As so, some countries require some sort of validation of your log book by notary or embassy in the US to confirm your hours.

[BigGrecian]

Definitely not valid or legal under JAA.

Only one person can log anything in a single pilot aircraft.

Only exception is with instructor when the instructor is PIC and you are logging dual, or with an examiner when it may be dual or PIC dependent on outcome of the test.

FAA has different rules but these do not count for JAA.

[Johnny Bekkestad]

the hours where you are actually flying the airplane will count, but not the hours where you are a safety pilot.
So let's say you buy a 100 hour block, you will only be able to count half of it under JAA. But you should also know that both pilots usually share the cost of an airplane so in the end it is actually same same.
IF the rate of the airplane is 200$/h and you buy 100 block you will actually only pay 10000$ for it instead of 20000$ and you will be able to log 50 hours under JAA and 100 hours under FAA.

[BigGrecian]

Not entirely true Johnny.

As the PIC you shouldn't be allowing anyone else to log the time other than yourself.

So you can't fly around claiming PIC whilst you know the guy to your right is logging safety pilot and also logging PIC.
If someone asked and found this out the hours won't count and a school doing the CPL for you shouldn't recognise those hours if it was like that because the CAA won't recognise them either.

[Johnny Bekkestad]

yes it is true.
In the US you allowed to do this so under FAA FAR you can log PIC time both as pilot and as safety pilot.
Under JAA/CAA you cannot do this so you will be able to only log the hours where you are actually PIC.
And this is what i wrote...

Now according to the FARs
§61.51 - Logbooks
(e) - Logging pilot-in-command flight time
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person -
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

Now the interesting part and the part that makes this legal is (iii) you cannot perform the flight safely without a safety pilot and therefor he/she can also log the hours.

Again, you come to the US buy 100 hours of flight time expect to be able to get 50 hours recognized by JAA/CAA and you actually only pay for 50% of the flight time as well as the safety pilot also pays 50%

[BigGrecian]

Now the interesting part and the part that makes this legal is (iii) you cannot perform the flight safely without a safety pilot and therefor he/she can also log the hours.

Unless your hour building in a multi crew aircraft such as a turbine aircraft in which case you would require the type rating to log it under JAA - then you would be flying a single pilot multi engine - i.e a Duchess, Seneca, Seminole etc.
They are not certified for multi crew operation.

That is under both FAA and JAA!
Only one pilot is required!

The scenario you are referring to is 91.109 simulated instrument flight, where the pilot left hand seat should fly with reference to instruments and logs PIC, the safety pilot logs PIC as well under FAA. There is no requirement for you to fly the flight this way unless you specifically want to log safety pilot for FAA purposes only.
This scenario does not exist under JAA apart from with an instructor where the instructor logs PIC and you log dual received.

You can't go around logging PIC and trying to claim it under JAA because it would be a false statement as you know the guy in the right hand seat is logging the flight time as PIC at the same time so to claim it and enter it into a JAA logbook is fraud. Only ONE pilot can log flight time for JAA purposes so the pilot in the right hand seat can log NOTHING for you to be able to log it under JAA as PIC.

There is one upside, you can log it as supernumerary - which doesn't count towards totals, licensing requirements etc. But if your like that then I log supernumerary every time I sit in an aircraft I'm qualified on.

Don't believe a word the school which sells the hours says - they have an interest in you logging the hours. (Obviously!)
I know that ATP and Aviator offer these.
Aviator's website even states that the other pilot pay not log anything! Flight Training - Multi Engine Time Building Programs - Aviator Flight Training College (http://www.aviator.edu/home/flight-training-programs/multi-engine-time-building-programs.aspx)

[Johnny Bekkestad]

OK, let me say this a 3rd time...
The only time you would log under JAA is the time you actually fly as PIC not the time where you are acting as a safety pilot!!!

I do not say that you should forge anything, so don't try to make it sound like that.

Once again, under FAA you could log both PIC and safety pilot as PIC, the last part would not be valid under JAA so you would only be able to log the first part which is the actual flight that YOU did in the left seat as a PIC.

and as (iii) it also depends on the actual flight. So any of the planes you mention, that ARE single pilot airplanes, can still require a two man crew. In just the scenario you proposed. If you are flying in simulated instrument you are required to have a safety pilot. And therefor the actual flight conducted will need a two man crew independent if the airplane or not is typed for a single pilot.

[BigGrecian]

The only time you would log under JAA is the time you actually fly as PIC not the time where you are acting as a safety pilot!!!

I got that. We all agree that you can log it under FAA.

you would only be able to log the first part which is the actual flight that YOU did in the left seat as a PIC.

And I stated that if the pilot to your right logs anything; You can not log anything under JAA other than supernumerary.
No PIC.

These time building programmes conducted under 91.109 do not provide any legal loggable time other than supernumeray under JAA. Hence why one of the providers of this even states that the other pilot (aka safety pilot) cannot log anything (even FAA) if you want to log it for JAA.

[palou89]

In the US when one pilot goes under the hood, the airplane needs a second crew member (safety pilot) in order to be legal to fly. Thus, safety pilot becomes a required crewmember on a single pilot aircraft and hence he is able to log SIC.

If the safety pilot agrees to be the PIC of the flight he may log PIC. The person under the hood may also log PIC since under the FARs he is acting as the sole manipulator of the flight controls and holds the apropriate category and class ratings.

Theres an official letter from the FAA explaning all this more accuratly.

[Clintonb]

So why do people say after your training you should become an instructor as that is a way to build your hours in order to possibly get hired later with an airline NOT in America because im not a citizen so im just throwing that out there.So i plan on working with an airline later in the future outside of america europe,middle east etc

but it sounds like even the instructor is not logging hours whether its working in the states or europe, then how do instructors build hours???. my plan was to do my training in the US getting both FAA and JAA CPLMEIR with JAA fATPL (the course includes both licenses)and then after getting my instructors rating FAA CFI and II and work in the States instructing and build my hours.
any information to shed some light would be great.
Thanks again for your time

[Clintonb]

ok but what about JAA i just wanna build my hours so i end up with X amount of hours lets so over 1000 hrs and go with my JAA license and hand in my CV stating i have a JAA license with JAA fATPL with so many hours. because thats what people need to do right build hours and experience in order to get a job if there are any. so the only way to build hours and make a bit of cash to live is to instruct right or are there jobs out there that will take someone fresh out of flight school with 200-250 hrs?????

[Clintonb]

ok fair enough. So multi engine I've seen some people flying multi engine by themselves? same goes for some schools they offer so many hours of solo x country in multi engine.

[Johnny Bekkestad]

I dont think you will find many places in the US where you can find a multiengine airplane that you can rent for solo flight.
If anyone knows anyone in florida that does it i would love to know about it, cause i have not managed to find one.