STOL aircraft question. [Archive]

Genghis the Engineer

2nd Oct 2010, 16:57

The problem you've got here is that you're jsut the wrong side of the part 23/part 25 crossover.

Part 25 aeroplanes are generally airliners - big, heavy, and very expensive: there's little incentive for a manufacturer to go to the massive part 25 certification costs for something only a little bigger than the part 23 limit.

STOL aeroplanes are pretty much entirely part 23 aircraft - which are limited to 19 passenger seats (+ 1 or 2 pilots). This basically means that the big STOL aeroplanes seat a maximum of 20 total.

But if you can limit to 20 total PoB (almost certainly 18 pax in any sensible configuration) then there are several aeroplanes available to you. The dHC-6 Twin Otter would be an obvious choice, but you could also look at the BN2A Mk.III Trislander. On the sort of short hops you're looking at, total payload shouldn't be a particular problem.

As Transaal said, there are military aeroplanes that will certainly do what you're describing - but not with civil certification.

G

decurion

2nd Oct 2010, 18:44

The Dash 7 STOL could do this...it can take about 50 passengers and land within 600 m at ISA SL. No longer in production. About 51 still flying around (also as passenger planes)

Boslandew

3rd Oct 2010, 19:41

Gentlemen, many thanks for your assistance. Just out of interest I was wondering if there are any aircraft larger than the present Twin Otters that could land at St Mary's, Isles of Scilly, UK

Decurion

I had thought of the Dash 7. My copy of 'Janes' gives STOL take-off/landing distances of approximately 600 metres. Presumably a runway would need to be longer than this to operate public transport flights? Any idea how much longer?

Thanks in advance

Boslandew

5LY

4th Oct 2010, 14:12

Look at viking.com They are producing Twin otters again.

Genghis the Engineer

4th Oct 2010, 14:13

Lightweight C-130? I think that there are variants with a Civil CofA. It certainly could land well within that - I'm not so clear on take-off distances.

G

ExGrunt

4th Oct 2010, 14:29

The V-22 would meet the required criteria ;o)

EG

twochai

4th Oct 2010, 22:08

You can forget both the C-130 and the Transall, on economic grounds as well as certification, etc., etc.

Brymon Airways operated Dash 7's out of the 2199'/677 Meter runway of Baltasound Airport, on the island of Unst. These operations persisted for about twenty years, to full Public Transport rules, hauling oil company employees who transferred to/from helicopters for the short lift to/from the North Sea platforms. Carrying hundreds of thousands of passengers during this period, to the best of my knowledge the Dash 7 never put a wheel off the UNT runway.

Although St. Mary's is slightly shorter than UNT, the commercial payload of the Dash 7 would certainly be more than the Twin Otter, so it would probably boil down to the sector length desired. A look into the Approved Dash 7 AFM would provide the answer for you.

V1... Ooops

4th Oct 2010, 23:59

Boslandew:

You would go bankrupt trying to operate a Dash 7 on that route. Sure, the PLANE could do the job for you perfectly, but the maintenance costs for a four-engine aircraft of that size (not to mention the fuel costs) would kill the idea at the planning stage.

Best suggestion I can offer, if you need to carry more than 19 passengers, is to get TWO Twin Otters. No-one will ever complain about increased frequency of operation.

Phileas Fogg

5th Oct 2010, 00:16

Dornier 228 (NG), similar size to the Twotter but more aerodymamic looking and an undercarriage that retracts!

Boslandew

5th Oct 2010, 11:06

Gentlemen

Many thanks for all the information.

A little background. It has been suggested in the local paper that there are faster, cheaper fixed-wing alternatives to the S61 helicopter that currently operates the route carrying 25+ pax and bags. I was fairly sure that there wasn't a fixed wing aircraft that could offer more seats than the helicopter on public transport flights to St Mary's on a 600 metre runway. I believe there might be a further problem with a gradient of up to 6% although I note and read in wonder of operations into and out Courcheval. However, I have little knowledge of fixed-wing performance and PPrune seemed the best source of info.

It seems clear from your answers that the only contender would be the Dash 7.
Twochai and V1...oops make it clear that the Dash 7 could operate the service performance-wise but not profitably. Which is no doubt why it has never flown the route.

Ex-Grunt Nice bit of lateral thinking. I never considered the Osprey.

It would be an interesting sight watching Hercules and Transalls thundering in and out. I had considered the Dornier 228 but it offers 6-8 pax less than the S61.

I suspect that the S61 will continue to operate the route, soon to be from Lands End airport alongside the Twin Otters and Islanders, with perhaps a Westland Heli-liner as an aventual replacement.

Many thanks for your time and thoughts. PPrune at its best.

Boslandew

flighttest-engineer

5th Oct 2010, 12:28

Hello Boslandew,

A friend of mine flew with the Dash7 on a regular basis to the altiport Courchevel in France.
As I remember the passenger capacity was limited to max. 20 for this operation. In the meantime his company has discontinued the operation with this aircraft.

Economics101

5th Oct 2010, 13:00

SATA (Azores airlines) have a single Dornier 228 in thier fleet specially for flights to the smallest Azorean Island, Corvo (pop 400). Corvo's runway is variously reported as 600 or 800m, and it has a drop into the ocean at each end. Some flights operate a short 5-minute hop to nearby Flores, but I think that there may also be flights to Horta, which is over 150 miles away.

To this layman, the 228 looks like an interesting proposition, given what SATA manages to do with it. Seats only 19, but it seems to be versatile and reliable.

Anyone ever flown to Corvo? I'd love to, but haven't yet managed it.

Firestorm

5th Oct 2010, 13:28

Phileas Fogg: are you calling the Twin Otter ugly?

Further to V1... Oops's suggestion. One Twin Otter, and get the crew to do a few more rotations during their duty day!

As you mention in one of your posts whilst there are aeroplanes that would cope with the distance you have the problem of what used to be known as Performance A for aircraft of over 5700kg on public transport AOC work which requires considerable safety margins to be applied in performance planning which makes the task impossible from a regulatory point of view. If the services were being operated under a private operation then the performance margins don't need to be applied.

V-22. Nice idea, but probably very expensive to run, and I don't know that it certified on the civilian register in Europe yet.

Probably best stick with what you've got until someone extends the runway, or get a Twin Otter on floats for the novelty factor!

The SSK

5th Oct 2010, 13:58

Could a Bristol Wayfarer have done it?
They used to use virtually nothing of NCL's runway when I was a kid spotter there.

Genghis the Engineer

5th Oct 2010, 14:01

Possibly the cheaper, faster, quieter alternative to an S61NM is two dHC-6 Twin Otters?

G

Phileas Fogg

5th Oct 2010, 14:56

Firestorm,

Well the Twotter is somewhat less than 'eye candy' from a passenger point of view, once upon a time I worked for Brymon, like many of DHC's products the Twotter was designed for all the gravel strips etc. of Canada, whilst, for Brymon, it served as an ideal work horse for the ISC routes Brymon also utilised it on the BHX and EMA routes to/from Gatwick, businessman routes, and for such routes the Twotter was unsuitable, it is slow with a cruising speed of circa 150 knots and with a fixed undercarriage.

In comparison the Do228 has a significantly higher cruising speed and with retractable gear, not only does it look like more of a convential airliner, eye candy for the passengers, than a Twotter but it gets those passengers to destination quicker and, thinking commercially, an airline can achieve more utilistion, more rotations, in a lesser period of time than they can with the Twotter.

Boslandrew,

If my memory serves me correct, in the event that the ISC had been fogged out for a day or longer, I recall Brymon considering putting a DHC7 in to ISC and this was when ISC, besides a short tarmac strip for helicopters, was a grass airfield. I recall Brymon, having done the figures, would have put a DHC7 in were it not that the PLH based (solitary) DHC7 was normally utilised doing something else.

But then you're going OTT, 50 passenger seats to fill and with twice as many engines/systems as a convential aircraft of that size, and with the age of DHC7''s, I would anticipate high maintenance costs. Another problem for DHC7, whilst thay can operate to/from literally any airfield so many smaller airfields don't have the required minimum fire cover, in the old days somewhere like Biggin Hill needed to get a civvy fire appliance in to meet the minimum cover, and at cost to the airline.

P.S. I wonder if PLH's terminal roof still bears the scars of G-BRYB taxiing in to it with engines running!

Aero Mad

5th Oct 2010, 15:49

Alderney has similar sort of problems - 880m runway and 35 year old Trislanders, which some say are coming to the end of their lives. SU80s, AN28s, LET 410s. Dornier 228s (all if eventually UK certified - or do it manx2 style) are the only options to replace them, but or Alderney either more Islanders or new Trislanders are the only aircraft that can replace Trislanders.

twochai

5th Oct 2010, 16:19

You would go bankrupt trying to operate a Dash 7 on that route.

V1 ooops: You forget the yields possible on short, high end routes to/from islands where many HNW individuals have their weekend abodes. While not a monopoly (the ferries provide service) there is a substantial demand for a premium air service to the Isles of Scilly.

(Having said that, there must have been a serious obstacle if Bill Bryce didn't try it with the Dash 7 - I bet it was the issue of fire cover for more than 20 pax!)

Phileas Fogg

5th Oct 2010, 16:47

twochai,

Bill Bryce didn't do it with a DHC7 because, for a grass short field, there was some element of risk and there were higher yield routes, London, Channel Islands, for the DHC7 to be utilised on.

Brymon's routes to ISC would be 'W' pattern rotations, i.e. PLH/ISC/NQY/ISC/PLH or PLH/ISC/EXT/ISC/PLH and, even after day(s) of ISC fog it would be non commercial for a DHC7 to go touring the airports to pick up a handful of pax at each one.

How about a Boeing Jetfoil, circa 50mph across the top of the water!

The success of the chopper service from/to Penzance is that Penzance has the railway station for passengers to connect from/to all over UK, move the operation to a grass airfield near to St. Just then, not only would the chopper be competing with a (ex Brymon G-BIHO) Twotter operation but no railway connection however St. Mawgan would remain the airport with operations to ISC with a railway connection in Newquay.

Operate a Jetfoil from/to Penzance harbour which is a few minutes walk from/to the train station!

What's happening to the heliport, is it closing, are B&Q extending their garden centre?

Phileas Fogg

5th Oct 2010, 23:47

Aeromad,

18 seater (expensive) avgas burning Trilanders compared to 19 seater avtur burning Do228's!

The Do228 had to be UK certified for, in the old days, Suckling Airways to operate it, not sure if the, currently produced, 'NG' variant is considered as being the same beast or not.

If it isn't considered the same beast then I'd hazard a guess there would be a similar problem with the, currently produced, Twotter.

Boslandew

6th Oct 2010, 14:23

Many thanks for all the very interesting inputs

I think the route faces some interesting times. The plan for the helicopter is that after the 2011 season the operation will move to Lands End when the heliport will become a branch of Sainsbury's. The company will be based, and overnight maintenance will take place, at Newquay with the aircraft ferrying to/from Lands End each day and then flying 12 round trips.

It will lose its great advantage of flying from Penzance heliport, close the train terminal. In summer the two S61's operate close to max capacity with over 1000 pax carried on Saturdays. However, it has steady traffic thoughout the year with the 'shoulder' period, Spring and Autumn, being much used by senior citizens. At all times, the islanders use it as a bus, flying to Pze and back in a day for the bank, hairdressers etc. The route works as the longest serving and most used helicopter service in the world, 4 million pax carried, because it is a unique combination of the right aircraft, the right length route, the demand, the heliport location and the mild weather.

Move to Lands End and things change. The Twin Otters and Islanders currently operating from there have very much lower DOC's and offer greater flexibility. 4 pax in an Islander may or may not break even. On a 61 its a disaster. It is difficult to see how the helicopter will be able to compete except for seats available per flight - I have flown 29 pax on a return leg. Its worth mentioning, however, that the S61's also operate to Tresco, one of the Isles of Scilly, which I believe would be beyond any fixed-wing to public transport standards.

As to other aircraft, the DHC7 could apparently operate as regards runway length. Despite the example of Courcheval which we're told by Flight-Test Engineer was limited to 20 pax, I'm wondering if even the Dash 7 could operate public transport to a 600 metre runway with a steep gradient, I believe its 6%, up to the middle and then similar down for the second half with a drop onto rocks close to each end. It's different from Unst which I visited in BAH Chinook/S61's. General opinion also seems to be that it would not be economical. Phileas Fogg, did Brymon ever actually operate any service to Scillies in the Dash 7?

As regards fire cover, I wasn't aware of the twenty pax rule that Twochai mentions but the airport has always had cover for the S61 with a max of 30 pax (plus up to four babes in arms and three crew)

I doubt that a change of type to the Dornier would offer much advantage as over a thirty mile leg, speed is not of such importance.

The Bristol Wayfarer sounds interesting. Would that be the Old Bristol 'Frightener' of Silver City's Airways?

A friend has a picture of the DH86, the four engined Rapide, in front of the tower at ISC so at least one four engined airliner has flown the route.

A Jetfoil would be a possible answer. However, the resident ferry, the ageing Scillonian, only operates about seven months of each year and they have been unable to find finance to replace it so I doubt a Jetfoil would succeed.

I suspect that Ghengis probably has the eventual answer with more Twin Otters, a type that reliably flies the route now and offers eighteen seats.

I think we should all watch this space with interest

flyboyike

6th Oct 2010, 14:42

Didn't Air France operate some Transalls for a while?

Phileas Fogg

6th Oct 2010, 15:46

Andrew,

I'm pretty sure that Brymon never put the DHC7 in to ISC, partly because the was only one DHC7 based in the South west and was normally occupied on other routes.

The Jetfoil is passenger only, no vehicles, a double decker, and could seve St. Mary's, Tresco and indeed other islands, if, literally, flies across the water at circa 50mph, carries a hell of a lot more passengers than even a DHC7, it can't be compared similar to a clapped out ferry, on the Ramsgate/Ostend the ferry would take 4 hours, the jetfoil 90 minutes!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/20091105-TurboJET_Urzela.jpg/800px-20091105-TurboJET_Urzela.jpg

The scenario now being faced, it seems, that islanders choice will be to be dumped at a grass airfield in the middle of nowhere as opposed to flying in to, literally, Penzance town centre.

For the tourists they either take a train to Penzance or another Cornish station, then public transport, if any, to St. Just or they need to travel down by car.

A 'flying boat' could transport then town harbour to town harbour a lot quicker than messing around with surface transport between towns/stations and aifields in the middle of nowhere!

Boslandew

6th Oct 2010, 17:08

Phileas Fogg

Sorry, not Andrew.

I've spoken to ISC and they say that there is no recollection of a Dash 7 ever operating a passenger service into St Mary's. A British Antarctic Survey aircraft did once land there but only for an air show.

As regards a Jetfoil, I think it would be admirable for a couple of summer months but I doubt it would prove profitable at any other time. In winter, total passenger numbers are in the tens. It would be an enormous investment for a market limited to about seven months a year.

At present a fair percentage of visitors have to travel to Lands End airfield anyway. The costs of operating PZE heliport from the income of one company is a a huge burden. Pehaps the two companies, BIH and Isles of Scillies Steamship Co, calculate that together, even in competition, they will do better.

flyboyike

Hadn't heard about Air France Transalls. They would be far too big other than possibly for a couple of summer weekends.

Phileas Fogg

6th Oct 2010, 17:29

Bos,

Oostende Lines operated their jetfoils with the upper deck closed during the quieter times, OK the company folded but so did a few cross channel operators brought about by the opening of the tunnel.

Even if passenger numbers are in their 10's, just one sailing, if that's what it's called, a day, in the opposite direction that the ferry is travelling at that similar time, might break even or better.

Yes, a big investment but as big an investment as flying machines?

Perhaps a comparison to Penzance to Scillies might be Southampton to Channel Islands, SOU has a less than lengthy runway hindered by the M27 motorway passing by one end of it, not far down the road is BOH airport, better runway, better most things but ...... certainly in the days of BIA/Air UK, probably now FlyBE and other(s), SOU to CI is/was literally like a bus service whereas BOH would have minimal flights per day/week and why? ..... Because SOU has a train station whereas the pax get off the train from anywhere in UK, walk a few yards, and check-in for their flights.

My point is that St. Just's S61 operation may become the BOH of Cornwall, whilst not mainline NQY has a rail connection thus I would envisage ISC traffic from/to NQY increasing moreso than St. Just.

Just making the point :)

Boslandew

7th Oct 2010, 11:19

Hi Phileas

I think the jetfoil is an interesting red herring. I don't know enough of the subject to make any sensible comments. My only thoughts apart from the initial costs and the lack of winter traffic is that the harbour at St Mary's may not have enough depth of water at all tides. The present vessel can only berth there as it is shallow draft and flat-bottomed. I'm guessing that a jetfoil would be more expensive than an additional Twotter or two.

I think your SOU/BOH comparison is relevant. However, if SOU closed, there would be no alternative to BOH. The heliport at Penzance is a five minute ride on a dedicated mini-bus service/800 metre walk from the station. Lands End is pretty remote. Its worth mentioning that the car-park at the heliport is usually packed to capacity with several hundred cars during the summer meaning that there are those willing to drive considerable distances. I think that the attraction, and boasting rights, of going on holiday by helicopter should not be overlooked.

Most people seem to agree that the dash7, while technically capable, is not a profitable option, a view supported by the fact that it has apparently never worked the route. From local knowledge I know that there is a high percentage of visitors who not wish to use the sea-route and I think that they will continue to fly even if they have to trek to Lands End. If you have driven from Bristol and further east and north, another ten miles is unlikely to be a problem. There will no doubt be an increased bus service PZE station to Lands End.

How the S61 will compete with the Twin Otter under equal conditions remains to be seen. Again worth mentioning, the S61's have a GPS/NDB IFR approach into ISC which was specific to type and approved crews and which the fixed-wing did not use in my time. Not to say that they couldn't.

Interesting to see what happens in 2012

V1... Ooops

7th Oct 2010, 15:51

I am by no means an airline economics wizard, but I have noticed that on "thin but premium" routes, frequency of service appears to be the key to attracting and retaining customers.

Where I live (Victoria, BC), we have a similar set of services to what is being discussed here. A large ferry operates between Vancouver Island (City of Victoria) and the Mainland (City of Vancouver) at approximately 2 hour intervals. The ferry terminals at each end of the route are some distance from the city centers, thus a 'downtown to downtown' transit is about a 4 hour excercise. Information about the ferry services can be found here: BC Ferries (http://www.bcferries.com/schedules/mainland/).

A helicopter operator offers S76 service downtown to downtown, information about the helicopter service can be found here: Helijet schedule (http://helijet.com/n/schedule/img/page18/Helijet%20Schedule%20Information%20-%20effective%2012Oct10.pdf). Note the fare premium for the helicopter.

A similar service - downtown to downtown - is offered by a DHC-6 operator, using float equipped Twin Otters. Information about that service can be found here: West Coast Air (http://www.westcoastair.com/HTML/about_west_coast_air.html).

All three operators have co-existed for well over 15 years (in some cases, 35 years or more) and appear to have carved out their niche in the market. The ferry is the least expensive, but the slowest, especially for passengers who do not bring their own vehicle with them. The helicopter is fastest (by a small margin) but very expensive. The Twin Otter is priced in between the ferry and the helicopter and offers the best frequency (a total of 6 Twin Otters are used, although not all at the same time).

For sake of full disclosure, I have to acknowledge that I favour the Twin Otter, perhaps because I work for the company that holds the type certificate for the Twin Otter... :)

Michael

Phileas Fogg

7th Oct 2010, 16:09

Bos,

You're bringing back old memories, do they still call it 'Doc's Rock' on the way in to ISC. 'Doc' was a Brymon mature Captain, it became known as his rock because as long as he got a sighting of that rock he could land in, literally, any weather conditions.

The passengers travelling SOU/CI are actually passengers who would otherwise fly from a London etc. airport, they simply board the train in London, get off at SOU and fly, if SOU closed they'd probably fly from London etc.

I appreciate that PZE station to St. Just is perhaps a similar distance as Newquay station to NQY but passengers don't often think logically, PZE and St. Just are two different locations, 'Nookie' is a single location.

You mentioned little difference in block times between the Do228 and the Twotter, what might be more relevant is to compare fuel burn and operating cost comparisons, particularly the new Do228NG. Whilst the beasts have different engines with a more aerodynamic appearance and, particularly, with retractable gear surely the Do228 must burn quite significantly less fuel!

There would be a significant difference in block times if such (ex Brymon) destinations as NQY/PLH/EXT/BRS were also served!

It will be interesting to see what may develop, my guess would be that the Choppers will lose appeal, they've succedded so long because only rotary wing could operate in/out of PZE, they're losing that route monopoly operating to/from fixed wing airports.

P.S. The jetfoils could be great fun to ride on, if there is sea traffic congestion they didn't slow down nor stop, they'd do a 'go around', one time outside Ramsgate harbour, lots of little boats in the way, we did about three 360's, at full speed, before entering the harbour!

Boslandew

8th Oct 2010, 13:16

Michael

I was amazed at the similarity of the two routes with ferry/fixed/helicopter. Even the route mileage between the two principal terminals is almost the same. I was interested to see that the S76 helicopter is used. I flew it on the North Sea and often thought that with its high (helicopter) speed, relative smoothness, good passenger visibility and very fast start up/turn-round times it would be ideal for the right passenger service. Frightening price though.

I’m assuming that traffic on the routes is as much business/ domestic as it is holiday with reasonable loads through the winter. Up to 6 Twotters in use on the fixed-wing link alone suggests a lot of passengers. I appreciate your support for the Twin Otter. Even as a rotary-wing man, I can see that it’s just about unique. Be interested to know the total passengers carried each year. PZE - Scillies varies from 2000+ per day in summer to as little as twenty in winter.

Phileas

One of lifes amazing coincidences. Last night a friend who has been associated with Lands End/St Just airfield all his life, lent me a copy of a book called “To The Sunset Bound” by a chap called Michael Ingram, ISBN 0 85130 141 X. In fact the author presented my friend with this copy. It was first published In 1987 but has been updated as it contains references to the Dornier 228 which I believe was later.

It is a highly detailed, well-researched history of all scheduled air services to the Scillies. It contains details of all operators, types used and individual registrations and much backgound info as well. It even refers to my S61 type conversion in 1976. All of the questions we have raised are considered and explanations provided. It also mentions ‘Doc’s rock’ you’ll be pleased to hear. Apparently at one stage the advantages of turning PZE heliport into a 2500 feet fixed-wing strip were considered.

The Dash 7 could land but not carrying an economical payload. The Dornier 228 (not sure which version) was regarded as not having the necessary short-field performance, I checked a web-site which quotes a take-off distance of just under 800 metres, 600 available. The civilian versions of the Caribou and Buffalo were considered, both being considerable short-field performers but rejected oweing to UK certification costs. The Israeli Arava and Australian Nomad did not offer any significant increases. The civilian Chinook was considered but ruled out on availability grounds.

It all supports my original belief that there is no fixed-wing aircraft that can offer as many seats commercially to ISC as the S61. The book quotes operating cost for the S61 as being 25% higher than the Twin Otter, less difference than I had thought. Where fixed-wing also score is the ability to operate from ‘up-country’, Bristol, Exeter, Southampton, denied to the S61 because of limited range with max pax.

I take your point about Penzance/St Just and Newquay/Newquay, its all in the mind. The jetfoil does sound like fun though. How about in rough seas, we have to bear in mind that the Scillies are in the Atlantic.
Regards, David

V1... Ooops

8th Oct 2010, 15:54

Hi Boslandew:

The Victoria-Vancouver route is a bit unique because the smaller island city (Victoria) is the provincial capital, and the much larger mainland city (Vancouver) is the business center of the province - arguably the business center of Western Canada.

The downtown harbour in Victoria that the floatplanes and helicopter operate from is within walking distance of the provincial legislative building and many government offices. I am going to guess - and this is an uneducated guess - that perhaps as much as 80% of the traffic on the helicopters and Twin Otters is government and business traffic, with a very large proportion of the Twin Otter traffic being 'out and back the same day'.

The two communities are also served by hourly Dash 8 service. The Dash 8s operate from the Victoria airport, which is quite a long way out of town (very close to the ferry terminal, in fact). The Dash 8s probably pick up 98% of the connecting airline passengers, with the helicopter (which does the downtown Victoria to Vancouver airport) route picking up perhaps the other 2% - that being the first-class traffic.

To give you a rough idea of scale, the greater Victoria area has a population of about 300,000; and the greater Vancouver area has a population of about 3 million.

Michael

Phileas Fogg

8th Oct 2010, 16:10

David,

I still, vividly recall, the S61 incident of 1983, I think it happened on my birthday, a Brymon Twotter, the first of the day, had just managed to land in ISC after the fog had lifted a little, as the S61 was reported overdue/missing the Twotter got airborne, leaving pax on the ground, for search and rescue purposes, the pilot took it upon himself to do that.

Oostende Lines had their 3 (4 including the reserve) ferries also operating the same route as the jetfoil, in rough seas they would cancel the jetfoil for passenger comfort (vomiting) reasons and without any commercial pressure to operate, they simply put the jetfoil pax on the next ferry saving on jetfoil operating costs.

Indeed the first time I travelled on a jetfoil were in somewahat rough seas, in thiose conditions they took the shortest route from Ramsgate straight across the channel to the French Coast then we 'flew' along the French/Belgian coast, just off the beach, to Ostend. Rough seas, what nonsense, throughout my life I've had such a problem with my stomach and on that occasion I didn't even spill my gin and tonic, I was really enjoying the experience!

But I read on tripadvisor that the Scillies ferry is also reknowned for vomiting :)

How about a Griffon Hovercraft? :) Several different sizes available, anything from 20 passenger to 180 passenger craft, as an example the 54-82 seater cruises at 45 knots,a recommended maximum wave height of 1.8m and using 230 litres of fuel (at max payload of 9.3 tonnes) per hour, that'll overcome the shallow water problem!

Boslandew

9th Oct 2010, 14:47

Hi Michael

I’ve just had a look at Victoria and Vancouver on Google maps and, lo and behold, a vertical view of four Twin Otters in Victoria harbour and a picture of a very smart S76 landing at the heliport.

From the overviews of the two cities and the island there is clearly an enormous market there, you can understand why three companies can thrive. From the fixed-wing web-site they have quite a route structure as well as Vic-Van.

How limited are they in winter by weather? Is IFR flight possible? I see from the operating weights that, in the UK at least, the Twin Otters could be flown single pilot. Is that so in Canada.

Were I a few years younger, I’d be every tempted to drop a line with my CV to Helijet. Dream on I believe is the expression.

Regards

David

Hi Phileas

Yes, I sadly recall the day of the accident. I was based in Suffolk at the time, gas-rigging, and the news was a real dampener. The company was of a size where we all knew each other. To their credit, one of the survivors, was airborne again in the replacement helicopter within a week. If you could get your hands on Michael Ingrams book, it’s a great read.

The jet foil does sound interesting. The closest I came was the catamaran from Newhaven but that was at a mere 37 knots.

The present vessel, the Scillonian, is elderly and in need of replacement or a major upgrade. I have yet to travel on it but it would reportedly “roll on wet grass”. I can remember being shut down on Tresco once and a couple came into the miniscule terminal there enquiring about a flight home. “We are not,”they said, "going back on that boat”. Its saving grace is that it is flat-bottomed and can get into the harbour on St Mary’s. I think there are several possibilities for a replacement but I suspect that it will need government assistance to provide one. A year-round service to Scillies is clearly vital but it doesn’t generate an enormous revenue or profit for anyone.

Regards

David

Phileas Fogg

9th Oct 2010, 17:19

David,

I know Beccles quite well, I lived there for a while whilst working in NWI and staying with relatives.

After the 1983 incident BA Helicopters, as it was then, took the effort and expense to travel up to PLH to debrief us with what they went through regarding the AAIB investigation, the press intrusion etc. I'm guessing this was a kind of 'thank you' for the Twotter doing it's bit to assist that day.

A couple of hovercrafts might work, a small one and a medium one, operate them both during the high season, either just the small one (perhaps 25 seater) during the low season and/or turn the medium one, or both of them, into a 'combi' for the low season carrying freight also.

V1... Ooops

9th Oct 2010, 22:47

...How limited are they in winter by weather? Is IFR flight possible?

The helicopters and the Dash 8s operate in IMC, the Twin Otters - because they are floatplanes - are VMC only. The Twin Otters always operate with two pilots, this is an operational rule relating to scheduled passenger service, not a certification rule.

The Twin Otter's regular customers have a pretty good idea of what weather conditions the aircraft can and cannot fly in, and that, combined with the generally more relaxed West Coast approach to life (I'm referring to the geographical area here, not the operator) generally mitigates any momentary interruptions caused by poor weather. The weather conditions out here change pretty quickly, so what might ground everything at 10 AM can easily evolve into clear blue sky at 11 AM. There's really not much of a 'winter' out here - just the May to September season (mostly sunny) and the October to April season (mostly rainy). I don't think the town even owns a snowplow.

The Twin Otter pilots themselves are extraordinarily experienced on the route. In fact, one pilot retired at the beginning of this month with 42,000 hours in his logbook, of which 20,000 were in the Twin Otter.

Jim Devlin Retirement - West Coast Air (Photo Credit: Darren Stone, Postmedia News)
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/untitled.jpg

Our local TV station ran an interesting story when Jim retired a week ago - here is the link to the video: Jim Devlin "Last Flight" video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHobEfkXmcw ).

Boslandew

13th Oct 2010, 14:27

Hi Michael

42,000 hrs!!! About three times what I retired with. As he said, "four to five flights a day, 220 days a year, 35 years....."

My first wrong assumption was about Vancouver weather. I had in mind ice and snow for several months. What you have sounds not unlike the weather here in the SW of the UK. Usually good summer, mist and drizzle in the winter.

I had it in mind that the Twin Otters might have an IFR cloud-break procedure to bring them out over the harbour if the cloud-base was not too low. However, diversion to an airfield for an ILS would obviously pose a few problems. Be interested to hear about the S76 IFR ops, what sort of approaches they do.

I had a further look at Google maps and it really does appear well-organised there. Custom-built heliports and sea-plane docks at either end and seemingly just where they're needed should be a pointer to many other cities