Exit on grounds of pregnancy!

[Merv Astle]

I'm researching a book. Serious question: Does anyone out there know the Title and AP number of the Air Publication in issue in the 1960-80's that detailed what to do when a WRAF got pregnant?

[The Old Fat One]

Given the numbers I'm sure someone on here will either have been married to one of the affected WRAFs, on know somebody who was. I believe a lot of the WRAFs kept copies of the relevant documents to produce in court.

Girl I knew (but don't know now) got a stroppy letter from the staish, threatening disciplinary action because she dared to challenge the system. That letter, alongside several AOC commendations, added a few noughts to the MODs bill.

Not our finest hour by a long chalk.

[4mastacker]

I think the book to which you may be referring is QRs, specifically its sub-paragraphs that dealt with the various types of discharges from service.

Like a lot of things, actions varied from Station to Station. On a certain Scottish AD airfield, whenever one of the WRAFs fell pregnant, our sqn bookie took bets on who was the father. :E

[Fortissimo]

Ah Merv, still remember your groundschool lectures at Valley!

I think I remember a book about getting WRAFs pregnant, but not what to do thereafter. :E

[Old-Duffer]

Have just consulted the current Mrs Old-Duffer - aka - ex-Sqn Ldr WRAF Admin Branch (a child bride for me of course!!).

She tells me that whilst there was a QR which dealt with the requirement to discharge females on pregnancy, the matter was actually detailed in policy letters. She does not recall a specific AP but there might have been references to female pregnancy issues in some of the general books dealing with 'P' staff matters.

!!!!!NOW!!!!!: if you really want to wind her up, just get onto the compensation of those girls who joined under the 'old rules' and then sued the services for squillions under the 'new rules'.

Mrs O-D wants compensation for meeting fully the obligations for which she signed up but there's a fat chance of that!!!

O-D - (currently suffering a bent ear!)

[Soddit]

It is a magnificent piece of prose. AP3269 ( 3rd Edition) May 1966. <ADMINISTRATIVE INSTRUCTIONS FOR WRAF OFFICERS DEALING WITH PREGNANCY CASES>. The proforma letters alone are worthy of preservation as historical documents.:)

[pamac51]

If my memory serves me right the authority was QR606/607 (10)(c) and no doubt the regulations were to be found in AP3392 (possibly Vol 5). How sad is that!

[Gainesy]

On a scale of 1 to 10?

About 17.:)

Hmm, 1661 or 1771? Catchy little numbers. One was the "leggit before sundown" and t'other a travel claim?

[Pontius Navigator]

At least the notice period was less than 9 months.

[philrigger]

;)

I think I remember a book about getting WRAFs pregnant, but not what to do thereafter.

A book was needed for that ???????

[SRENNAPS]

!!!!!NOW!!!!!: if you really want to wind her up, just get onto the compensation of those girls who joined under the 'old rules' and then sued the services for squillions under the 'new rules'.

Mrs O-D wants compensation for meeting fully the obligations for which she signed up but there's a fat chance of that!!!


Mrs Srennaps will second that.

Do the honourable thing in accordance with the rules and get diddley or break the rules and and set yourself up to be able to buy a house and have plenty left over not to struggle bringing up your first little one.:}:}

[Old-Duffer]

My take on the compensation is that the MOD should have said; "OK we got it wrong - here's the pay you were deprived, now get back in, we'll give you a quick refresher and you're back on your original engagement".

The numbers involved wouldn't have affected the manning plot and I suspect quite a few would have crept quietly away and for those who didn't the MOD could have said we are making restitution and if you don't like it - do t'other thing.

Best story on this topic which made the press was officer lady wanting said squillions 'cause she might have been a general one day! Case going well for her until 'witness for the defence' says; 'no she wouldn't 'cause she wouldn't have got a PC on her performance'. Fast forward 3 years and said lady holding down posh job gets sack for overstating qualifications and experience.

O-D

[Fortissimo]

Philrigger

The book was not required reading, but it was called 'Stradling'! ;)

[Wander00]

A Blunty mate, sadly no longer with us, spent a tour based at Innsworth representing the RAF at Employment Tribunals, defending the RAF against claims from women dischared/retired because of marriage or pregnancy. Must have been depressing getting up each mormning knowing you are going to Tribunal to lose, the only real question being "how much compensation?"

RIP CC

[Training Risky]

That kind of thing grips my $h!t.

How the hell can equal opportunity and anti-discrimination law be applied retroactively to a service which implemented the regulations as it saw fit AT THE TIME.

One day it's fine and legal to discharge on pregnancy, the next day it's politically incorrect, illegal and the public purse is liable for tons of compo cash.

These women knew what the deal was when they joined, how can it be right to get all litigious when the law changes years later - stinks of revisionist history to me!

I would very much like to see my kids grow up rather than spend 1 year in 3 in another country. Can I sue the MOD for 'denying the right to a family life' under the human rights act?:mad::ugh:

[EGGP]

The problem as I understood it when this was headline news in the 1990's was that the service chiefs were told they had to change many years ago and decided to ignore the law because they didn't think it should apply to them.

So anyone who signed up in the understanding that they would have to leave on marriage/pregnancy was discriminated against because their employer knew better. Why do court's/tribunals award compensation? because it is a clear cut decision that the law was ignored.

This issue used to wind up war pensioners' something rotten but it's the MOD all over; it thinks it knows best regardless.

Now where has this been apparent elsewhere? Hmmm... I wonder what Mr Haddon-Cave would have thought about this issue?

The civil service used to insist that women had to leave employment when they married, that was changed an awfully long time ago, but the military didn't.

[OHP 15M]

According to AP3269 (3rd Edition 1966), one of the immediate actions was to detain the offending airman in the Guardroom overnight to sober up, then escort him to the Medical Centre in the morning and arrange for an eye test :) :ouch:

[Impiger]

Pregnancy was one thing but under the old rules a WRAF could seek to leave on marriage (indeed Mrs Imps left on those terms). When notice was served that this clause was to be revoked in the mid nineties, two chaps under my command applied to leave on the grounds of marriage and then tried to claim sexual discrimination when told to procreate elsewhere!

Just goes to show that if you write a set of rules some scrote will try and find a loop-hole. Oh hang on they're called Lawyers .....

Pass the gin old chap

[adminblunty]

The MOD has a record of ignoring laws it doesn't agree with. pregnancy, equal pay, sex discrimination, women in combat roles. I'm sure the age discrimination law will bite the MOD in the future. i.e you leave at 55 unless you hit a certain very senior rank or you are a doctor, dentist etc in which case you can stay in longer. However if your an ATC, Plod, loggie etc you can bugger off at 55.

BTW how many female or ethnic minority air officers do we have...

[NG_Kaptain]

Don't recall seeing it written down but the normal procedure was to initially deny any knowledge and failing that try to blame someone else. Love it.:)

[Training Risky]

The MOD has a record of ignoring laws it doesn't agree with. pregnancy, equal pay, sex discrimination, women in combat roles. I'm sure the age discrimination law will bite the MOD in the future. i.e you leave at 55 unless you hit a certain very senior rank or you are a doctor, dentist etc in which case you can stay in longer. However if your an ATC, Plod, loggie etc you can bugger off at 55.

BTW how many female or ethnic minority air officers do we have...

Equal pay?! Give one example where you can get away with paying a woman a penny less to do the same job as a man in today's miltary? There is some discrepancy over automatic ranks to Flt Lt - but that's based on having a degree and is equally applicable to both sexes. As for civ businesses - that's a different matter altogether and is based on making money!

Same with sex discrimination - there are absolutely no obstacles to promotion in the branches that women can join, well none that I'm aware of...

...but when it comes to the RAF Regt, line infantry, RM, MCD etc - the MOD is covered by some opt-out clause of the Sex Discrimination act (anyone know exactly what this is?) - therefore legal, if somewhat unpopular and untrendy to some.

And the ratio of females and VEM officers is entirely dependent on the number of females and VEMs who choose to join in the first place, do well enough to get promoted by dint of ability not positive discrimination and don't leave prematurely to have kids. There are no barriers any more - the opportunities are open to everyone.

Agree on the age thing though.

[Gainesy]

VEM?? What's the V stand for?

[Climebear]

VEM = Visible Ethnic Minority

The Armed Forces are exempt from the provisions of the The Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/1031/contents/made) under Part 6, Section 44 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/1031/regulation/44/made) Paragraph (4) of that act:

(4) These regulations do not apply to service in any of the naval, military or air forces of the Crown.

IIRC this exemption is carried forward from the European Directive that led to the Act.

[NUFC1892]

Thread Drift warning


The MOD has a record of ignoring laws it doesn't agree with. pregnancy, equal pay, sex discrimination, women in combat roles. I'm sure the age discrimination law will bite the MOD in the future. i.e you leave at 55 unless you hit a certain very senior rank or you are a doctor, dentist etc in which case you can stay in longer. However if your an ATC, Plod, loggie etc you can bugger off at 55


The older I get the more this irritates. I am passing the RAFFT at a couple of stages higher than I need to, I am wiping the floor with my younger colleagues at every range up to 300 mtrs with the SA80 and I remain fully deployable; in my core role my SJAR OPG has consistently been A- for the last 5 years.

In a couple of years time I will be 55 and made unemployed, whilst those younger people who are regularly failing every requirement in the book will remain - fat, dumb & happy.:ugh:

[morningmorning]

I left on pregnancy (didn't sue, was in the contract as far as I was concerned) and would have loved to have rejoined. When I challenged the head WRAF on a station visit to give me a job - imagine how popular I was - the categoric answer was NO!

Having said that, we have come a long way. When I was talking to my kids about the Falklands last year, explaining that I couldn't serve there at the time because I was a woman they were amazed. They will have other challenges but at least either of my daughters could be aircrew and have a career in the forces now. When I asked a senior offcr about the possibility of women pilots (in the 70's 80's) I was told it would be too expensive to install ladies loos in all the crew rooms:rolleyes:.

[Gainesy]

Thanks.






.

[EODFelix]

Training Risky,

MCD is now accepting female divers

[BEagle]

I was told it would be too expensive to install ladies loos in all the crew rooms.

:ooh:

The RAF's premier AAR squadron did at least ensure that their ladies' loo was installed outside the crew room!

As part of the required facilities, it was built regardless of the cost. Quite rightly too!

[Union Jack]

MCD is now accepting female divers

Let's just hope that they don't muff their course .....:uhoh:

Jack

[BEagle]

....which reminds me of a story.

A squadron mate who, to preserve his anonymity, I'll just refer to as 'Snake', had a university T-shirt on which was emblazoned something like '1980 World Muff Diving Championships. No Muff Too Tough, We Dive At Five!'

"Snake", asked his future mother-in-law somewhat sternly, "just what is muff-diving?"
"Errm, oh, err, that's, errm....errm....it's when you jump into the water with your legs folded to try and make the biggest possible splash", said the quick-thinking young Snake.

Some months later, he was again at the future M-i-L's house. Future M-i-L looking through some photos suddenly announces "Oh look, here's a picture of Snake muff-diving".....

Snake's father was quietly reading his newspaper. Which began to shake visibly; it was slowly lowered to reveal his father quietly pi$$ing himself laughing, whilst wondering what the hell was in the photo....:ooh:

[baffman]

Climebear:The Armed Forces are exempt from the provisions of the The Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/1031/contents/made) under Part 6, Section 44 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/1031/regulation/44/made) Paragraph (4) of that act:
4) These regulations do not apply to service in any of the naval, military or air forces of the Crown. IIRC this exemption is carried forward from the European Directive that led to the Act.That's right. It's in Council Directive 2000/78/EC:

(19) ... in order that the Member States may continue to safeguard the combat effectiveness of their armed forces, they may choose not to apply the provisions of this Directive concerning disability and age to all or part of their armed forces...

[minigundiplomat]

Saw a pregnant LAC the other day. Now that is fast work!

[MrBernoulli]

BEagle,

Anonymity? 'Snake'? Surely not that 'Snake'? :ok:

:D:D:D

[BEagle]

Hi MrB!

I can neither confirm nor deny whether it was indeed that 'Snake'!

[Climebear]

Thanks Baffman

And just to keep us up to date, the exemption is still in place in the Equality Act 2010 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents) that came into force today. It can be found in Schedule 9 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/9) Part 1 Para 4:

Armed forces

4 (1) A person does not contravene section 39(1)(a) or (c) or (2)(b) by applying in relation to service in the armed forces a relevant requirement if the person shows that the application is a proportionate means of ensuring the combat effectiveness of the armed forces.

(2) A relevant requirement is—

(a) a requirement to be a man;

(b) a requirement not to be a transsexual person.

(3)This Part of this Act, so far as relating to age or disability, does not apply to service in the armed forces; and section 55, so far as relating to disability, does not apply to work experience in the armed forces.


Training Risky - the first part of this exemption is the legal 'opt out' that the Armed Forces could use for the Inf etc.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Saw a pregnant LAC the other day. Now that is fast work!

back in 97 I had a short task up at Buchan. There were a large number of maternity uniforms in Clothing Stores - they were a very new thing then. They had 7 pregnant LAC(W) and SAC(W) on the unit! It seems the local boys all had pots of cash (working offshore or on the trawlers) and the fresh blood we posted up there were easily impressed.

[BEagle]

It was the Queen's shilling - and I mean Elizabeth, not Victoria, before anyone asks....;)

That's Elizabeth II.....:)

[sitigeltfel]

Wasn't it an offence to alter ones appearance without putting in a Gen App?

[Gainesy]

Should not getting a WRAF* pregnant be regarded as a very cheap method of Force Multiplication?

(Thus subject of a long and tedious essay by some boring old git in Air Clues).

* What are "Airwimmin" called these days?

[BEagle]

* What are "Airwimmin" called these days?

Doubtless anything you like, if you've got the money, dearie....:ooh:

Whatever, hopefully something rather nicer than the expression used by some crumbly old C-130 route queen who referred to his female navigator as "The Drift Bitch"...:uhoh:

[Top Bunk Tester]

But even Wendy found it funny and the name has stuck ever since :D

[diginagain]

A gaggle I met in the Tower at Northolt referred to themselves as 'The Witch Watch'.

[BEagle]

Top Bunk Tester, 'twas she was it? I thought it might have been 'Pang'...:bored:

[ExAscoteer]

It was Wendy.

She got the nickname on the OCU.

The SOP for Herc Navs was to give the pilots the drift so that you could adjust the downwind leg in the visual circuit.

The story goes that our heroine was a little bit behind the aircraft and, having asked for the drift a couple of times, the student Captain came out with the immortal line:

"Oi, give me the f***ing drift, bitch!"

[Wensleydale]

back in 97 I had a short task up at Buchan. There were a large number of maternity uniforms in Clothing Stores - they were a very new thing then. They had 7 pregnant LAC(W) and SAC(W) on the unit! It seems the local boys all had pots of cash (working offshore or on the trawlers) and the fresh blood we posted up there were easily impressed.

What else is there to do at Buchan?:8

[Top Bunk Tester]

ExAscoteer

That is the exact story, I was on the same OCU course. She was so far behind the aircraft she could have been towed as a target by 100 Sqn :ouch: having said that I was only a few feet in front of her. :E

There was a rumour that LYN Flight Planning had opened an annex in her & Nick's front room. I remember on the States trainer, Nick had meticulously planned and rehearsed the next days route into Dulles days before, so the staff changed the routing into Baltimore that morning ...... his head fell off. Oh how we laughed :D

[Merv Astle]

Hi Fortissimo!
I'm still alive and kicking! How (and who) are You?

Merv

[Merv Astle]

Thank you, Soddit!

Just what I wanted. Murder/mystery set in 1968 (Waddington), I've got a WRAF ATC (married to a Vulcan navigator) who's getting out on grounds of pregnancy. Sad thing, later in the novel the poor girl's going to die in childbirth.

Merv Astle

[Fortissimo]

Merv

Check your private messages!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

EO, HF and CRM training, now I can fully understand why we do it :(

[Training Risky]

And what are your conclusions Seldom?

HF and CRM = useful fora in which crews improve their confidence, communication and understanding of factors which can only help improve flight safety?

EO = an attendence course mandated by MOD to ensure the some arbitrary tick VG can be made on everyones JPA profile so that the stats look good when probed by minority rights pressure groups?

Have I got it right so far?