The Right Stuff -Close contact instument flying

[Tee Emm]

Reading the various points of view on pure flying skills versus automatic pilot monitoring skills in modern transport aircraft, the following short tale may interest readers. It comes from a old friend of mine who gave me my first airline job in the Seventies and who flew Sabre fighters in the RAAF in the Sixties and earlier. He was leading a formation of four Sabres when the weather closed in quickly at their base. The formation was at 40,000 ft and practicing fighter combat tactics.

With no navaids in Sabres, the instrument let down was conducted by a ground controller using what was known as a VHF/DF let down or it may have been a UHF let down. The pilot makes a short transmission which is picked up by a ground controller and the direction of the aircraft from the controller is seen as a straight line by the controller on a Cathode Ray screen. There is no distance indication though. The pilot makes short transmissions and the line of position to the ATC changes and from the rate of change the ATC can give homing directions to overhead the aerodrome.

The leader advised ATC they needed a homing for base and ATC picked up the transmission and gave an initial compass heading to steer for overhead at 40,000 ft.

The formation closed right up before entering cloud which had embedded CB. The instrument approach consisted of a descent at high speed from 40,000 to 20,000 then a reversal turn continuing down to an MDA where hopefully the aircraft would break out of cloud. If the worst came to the worst, and the aircraft became desperately short of fuel and made missed approaches with nowhere else to go, the pilots would have little choice except to eject and come down by parachute.

Shortly after the leaders first transmission for homing his transmitter failed although he could receive. The aircraft were in formation with only a few feet between them and now in cloud. The leader attempted to use the prescribed hand signal to his No 2 signifying that No 2 should take the lead, while the leader would fall back as now No 2. All this in thick cloud.

Unfortunately, the No2 was concentrating hard on keeping close formation and was unable to observe the leader waving a hand signal - or if he did see, he wasn't certain what the leader was trying to get across to him. Meanwhile, ATC was giving changes of heading to the leader who not only couldn't reply but was unable to let the others know he had a transmission problem. The No 3 Sabre crewed by an American pilot on exchange duty to the RAAF fighter squadron, knew something was wrong and twigged the leader had lost his transmitter. In this sort of situation the formation sticks like glue to the next aircraft and cannot look at the instruments because one second of taking eyes off the next aircraft in cloud could lead to a mid-air collision. Remember they are doing 300 knots IAS.

The No 3 then called up the No.2 and said I think No 1 has lost his transmitter - you will have to transmit for him. Remember, no one knew for certain that No 1 had lost his transmitter. The No2 stayed in position abeam and a few feet back from the leader and transmitted in reply to the ATC homing bearings - all the while sticking close to his No 1 who was still leader of the formation. The No 1 could hear ATC and his other aircraft in the formation and would turn to new headings as directed even though acknowledgement was not possible.

Passing 20,000 ft still in close formation in cloud, the leader heard ATC call for the formation to make the reversal turn and continue to the MDA. He turned as directed and the others stayed with him. All the time it was the No 2 making the acknowledgments in response to the changes of headings given by ATC watching his Cathode Ray screen. Eventually they arrived at the MDA and a minute or so later spotted the aerodrome where they landed safely.

The ages of the pilots varied from between 21 and 30 years of age and their flying hours from 300 to 2000 hours. Nowadays not enough experience to get a Kingair job with the RFDS! And the Sabres had no flight directors, autothrottles FMC or automatics.

I know of one of that formation that is still around to tell tales and he is now 74 years of age and has his own aircraft - a Twin Commanche. Don't know if the others are still in the land of the living.

[Philthy]

Another great story, Tee Emm!

Pretty sure the Sabre had a radio compass though...

[Checkboard]

Visibility in cloud varies from about 50m to a couple of hundred, and formation in cloud is easier than outside of it in some respects, as you are not distrcted by the horizon and the like. Nice story :ok:

[desmotronic]

Ecve6k4dBeM

[gunshy67]

Visibility In cloud for a formation letdown varies considerably.

Day and night are very different.

Fighters are normally at high IAS's......300-400kts for a letdown and this mostly creates "ectoplasm" (condensation) and reduced visibility to half a wingspan at times.

Cumulus cloud is vastly different to stratoform cloud and good visibility is normally available in such conditions.

But i can assure readers that cloud formation flying can be quite demanding but is bread and butter for our fighter jocks.

I know . I was one.

[tinpis]

Always felt it a privilege just being in the same room as fighter jock.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/others17.jpg

[havick]

YouTube - Helicopters vs. Jets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu_leZE76VE&feature=player_embedded)

[bushy]

I remember seeing on TV a RAAF fighter pilot who was retiring, so they met him (the "old man") on the tarmac with a wheel chair after his last flight.
He was considered a very experienced pilot. He had flown 3000 hours.

[Captain Sand Dune]

How do you know when there's a fighter pilot in the room? Don't worry, he'll tell you!:E (can also substitute "Roulette pilot" for "fighter pilot").
But i can assure readers that cloud formation flying can be quite demanding but is bread and butter for our fighter jocks.
Also pretty demanding to the instructors who teach it to students in the PC9.

[remoak]

The ages of the pilots varied from between 21 and 30 years of age and their flying hours from 300 to 2000 hours. Nowadays not enough experience to get a Kingair job with the RFDS!

Maybe in Australia, but in other countries (OK then Europe:}) it is quite routine for cadets to be sitting in the right seats of jets with just a few hundred hours - my old company took six guys a year with an average total time of 250 hours when they did the 146 conversion course.

IFR in a 146 is a bit trickier than on a 737 or Airbus!

[Tee Emm]

Talking about low hours directly into the right hand seat of a 737. I talked today with an Australian 737 pilot recently flying with Air India Express - the same operator of the 737 that landed hot and a long way down the runway at Mangalore (India?) and as the copilot floated and finally hit the runway the captain took over and went into reverse then quickly cancelled reverse and attempted to go around around again. Clipped radio aerials at end of runway and then went into a ravine with terrible results.

The Australian 737 pilot crewed on several occasions with a female F/O recently returned from Miami USA where she had learned to fly then still at Miami she went straight into a 737 type rating and after that straight back to India into the RH seat of a 737NG with Air India Express. This female F/O was terrified whenever she was airborne in the NG and while the captain landed she would grip the sides of her seat in fear and was also distinctly averse to hand flying.

Over a coffee the captain asked her why so frightened. She replied that her father who was an airline official had consulted an astrologer for advice on a career for his daughter. In some areas of India, everything thing is first checked out by consulting an astrologer. Apparently the average monthly salary of a poor worker could be as low as a $100 and by that standard an airline pilot earns the equivalent of $400,000 a year in comparative terms. No wonder those that can afford to learn to fly do so to earn for their family a comparative fortune. In this case, the young lady F/O never wanted to be a pilot but was forced into it like an arranged marriage. But legally and officially she is second in command so Heaven help the passengers if the captain karked due food poisoning or similar deadly ailment.

This has little to do with the original post about the Right Stuff formation flying in IMC. But it is posted to counter the advocates who claim there is nothing wrong with low hour first officers as second in command of big jets. Next time you fly, ask your first officer the name of the astrologer he consulted to get the job...:ok:

[Arm out the window]

Visibility in cloud varies from about 50m to a couple of hundred,

You must be avoiding the thick ones mate ... 5 m maybe!

[Centaurus]

You must be avoiding the thick ones mate ... 5 m maybe!

Five metres visibility? I enjoy war stories as much as the next bloke but five metres is stretching the credulity a bit too far. As an example it means if you are flying a Chieftain in that type of cloud you can't even see your own wing tip. I doubt if it would be that bad.:=

[Chimbu chuckles]

A long time ago I did some night formation flying - on a REALLY dark night - give me close formation in cloud any day.:uhoh:

Its very common to hear female pilots over India - never heard one that sounded terrified - although anyone with a pulse should have SOME fear being airborne over India - at night during the monsoon abject terror is understandable - Her sex had nothing to do with her mental state.

Ask yourselves though how she got through the training - who signed her off?

[Captain Sand Dune]

I enjoy war stories as much as the next bloke but five metres is stretching the credulity a bit too far. As an example it means if you are flying a Chieftain in that type of cloud you can't even see your own wing tip. I doubt if it would be that bad Wanna bet? Maybe not very often, but it certainly can get down to that.

[remoak]

But it is posted to counter the advocates who claim there is nothing wrong with low hour first officers as second in command of big jets.

And you don't think there might be a few slight differences between training standards in India compared to Europe?

The Indian students in NZ don't even do an instrument rating, just a bare CPL and then they learn instrument flying "on the job". No, I don't think it's a good idea either!

But on the other hand, British Airways has been putting their own (very low hour - around 200) cadets in big jets for years. Not many of them consult astrologers, I would imagine.

The cadets I trained and flew with were exemplary pilots. Superb hands-on skills and sound judgement for their years. Not unlike military pilots, I would imagine. Hours aren't everything.

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
Visibility in cloud varies from about 50m to a couple of hundred,
You must be avoiding the thick ones mate ... 5 m maybe!

Pigs arse :ok:

Think about flying through clouds in a big jet, you can always see the wings and they are a fair way out.

Quite often I'll see opposite traffic on the reciprocal course 1000 above or below, especially in the wide spread thick stratus type cover.

The main problem with cloud is the loss of the horizon (der) but your 1000/2000 even 3000 metre visibility usually remains, unless of course you're in heavy showers associated with the weather.

[BombsGone]

In the Macchi standard formation position you were a little over 10meters from the wing tip lights of your form lead, and I can assure you that I've seen cloud too thick to even see the light let alone the tip tank. Lost contact procedures exist for a reason! 1000 meters vis is rare in low level cloud 50 to 100 is more the mark.

[The Green Goblin]

In the Macchi standard formation position you were a little over 10meters from the wing tip lights of your form lead, and I can assure you that I've seen cloud too thick to even see the light let alone the tip tank. Lost contact procedures exist for a reason! 1000 meters vis is rare in low level cloud 50 to 100 is more the mark.

We are talking apples and oranges, of course there will be times the cloud is thick, just as there will be the odd time you won't get visual on an ILS at the DH, or you'll actually pick that bird up when you're drunk.

Generally 5m vis is the exception rather than the rule IMO. Dark night ops in the territory if you turn your nav/strobes off, you would not be able to see your wing tip (and this is VMC :eek:).

[Grogmonster]

Tee Emm,

Would I be correct in assuming the initials of the Sabre Pilot were MB?

Groggy

[BombsGone]

You can pick the clouds where you might loose sight of lead if only for a second or two. Any reasonably well developed cumulous cloud will normally do it. Quite common really. As stated earlier stratus is less an issue unless it has significant vertical extent with rain.

[Centaurus]

Superb hands-on skills and sound judgement for their years.

Are we talking about manual raw data instrument flying skills or about superb monitoring of autopilot, skills? Big difference in jet transports especially as most of the major airlines frown on manual flying.

[Checkboard]

I fly in the UK with direct-to-right-seat cadets in the 737 all of the time, and in all honestly they are pretty good. :8 Generally dedicated to the job, keen to pick up knowledge, spot on with SOPs and tech knowledge. the only differences you see are gusty landings (safe, but lack a bit of polish - which is more of a time on type issue than an underlying problem) and dealing with "unusual" operations - the ones which only come up every thousand hours or so.

[remoak]

Are we talking about manual raw data instrument flying skills or about superb monitoring of autopilot, skills? Big difference in jet transports especially as most of the major airlines frown on manual flying.

Both. Can't speak for the British Airways or Easy 737 cadets, but the ones we had on the 146 were encouraged to fly manual approaches when practical, especially when up in the Scottish Islands where NDB approaches still existed at the time. They got to fly in some really foul weather too, and as we did some very short legs (Jersey to Guernsey - 21 miles), got to do low-level (500 to 2000', depending on the skipper) hand-flown sectors too. And if you were using the autopilot, the one in the 146 definitely had to be "monitored" very closely indeed, quirky beast that it is!

[desmotronic]

So checkboard what you are saying is that they are 'generally' pretty good as long as nothing unusual happpens and its not gusty ... hardly confidence inspiring. :hmm:

dunno what this has to do with formation in imc

[Checkboard]

No, I am saying you can't tell the difference from their 3000 hour brethren, except for gusty landings or unusual situations - and in these you can see the low experience, but their performance is still entirely acceptable.

[desmotronic]

acceptable adjective /əkˈsept.ə.bl ̩/ adj
• satisfactory and able to be agreed to or approved of

• just good enough, but not very good

From the cambridge dictionary, thanks for clearing that up.

[hugh_jorgan]

Jet pilot video

YouTube - Jet Pilot music video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BzU1sYPjzo)

an oldie but a goodie.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj62/ExA4K/PairsILS.jpg

Pairs ILS to DA (in 2.5nm radar trail)

[BombsGone]

Hugh, great song that, I was always a fan of iceman the latter years from Saturday night live.

[Cougar]

I am with Sanddune and BG on this one. IMC form is crazy stuff in a PC9, and yet they let studs do it. I remember initiating a loss of contact when I was in a 3 ship on the wing, and went from seeing the whole plane, to just seeing the port wingtip light. Bit hard to fly form when you have only a point source to fly off!!

But no, the instructor took over and told me to hang in there. New pair of jocks after that!! All whilst bouncing around in light turb. Not cool!

[Captain Sand Dune]

IMC form is crazy stuff in a PC9, and yet they let studs do it. Not solo students though!
Remember doing a formation camp in Albany where most of the rides were done IMC. The lost contact procedure was also taught in IMC. Kept you on your toes!:ooh: