Samsonite suitcases banned!

[Ken Scott]

It appears that the Staish at Lyneham, who clearly doesn't have enough to worry about, has banned crews from taking Samsonites down route. To project the correct 'corporate image' they are to lug their kit in Op black bags around the terminals and hotels of the world.

Is this the end of Hercules route operations as we used to know them?

[BEagle]

A bit daft to be so readily identifiable in a civilian environment by carrying a military item of luggage, given today's change in threat risk?

Are there really such anally retentive people in today's RAF who have nothing better to concern themselves with? It sounds like yet another duck nibble which you really don't need.....:\

Good to hear that you still get the odd 'route trip' though.

[Mach the Knife]

Wow, I never thought it was the suit case that gave it away. I just looked for the fat wheezy tosser vacuum packed in a dirty flying suit

[Wensleydale]

fat wheezy tosser vacuum packed in a dirty flying suit

Doesn't sound much like a hard case?:O

[Sideshow Bob]

the fat wheezy tosser vacuum packed in a dirty flying suit

Stop picking on the GE :E

[OmegaV6]

More stupidity that makes me glad i'm out. When the masive storms hit Thumrait in May 02 those of us who had bothered were exceedingly glad that our kit was in a waterproof samsonite. The "posers" using fancy cammo bags had wet kit .. mine was all nice and dry, unlike the inside of the FBT.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/251/rain15.jpg

[Two's in]

Wow, I never thought it was the suit case that gave it away. I just looked for the fat wheezy tosser vacuum packed in a dirty flying suit

Harsh, very harsh.

Isn't everyone getting out of the grey C-130 parked on the pan a bit of a clue as well?

[skaterboi]

Is this the end of Hercules route operations as we used to know them?

The end of Hercules route operations as used to be, stopped around about 2003. Whilst the very occasional route may come up now, the days of hotacing around the world are pretty much over.

I for one couldn't care less that my samsonite will only come out once a year. Frankly, I'm more bothered about whether the airbridge is adequately funded to get me there or back in the same week.

A bit daft to be so readily identifiable in a civilian environment by carrying a military item of luggage, given today's change in threat risk?

It's a large black holdall, very much like any other of the trillions of holdalls that frequent baggage reclaims in airports worldwide.

So please, can we take off the rose-tinted specs and get back to talking about some of the more pressing issues that we in the RAF and the military in general are facing right now?

[ExAscoteer]

They'll be going back to the stupid practice of hopping around Albert's freight bay changing into blues pre de-planing next!

Un-fecking believable! You'd think that the 'Wheels' would have better things to do with their time - sadly not.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose I guess.

Glad I'm out of it.

[Ken Scott]

So please, can we take off the rose-tinted specs and get back to talking about some of the more pressing issues that we in the RAF and the military in general are facing right now?

Ok. There were 2 reasons for posting this - first, to highlight the surfeit of time that the originator of this decision obviously has, when he could be concerned with such trivia as the future of his aircraft fleet post-SDSR, or its move to BZN & the closure of his station. Second, to have a bit of a laugh at said decision, particularly as few have or need a Samsonite these days as there are, indeed, few routes left. If we can't have a bit of fun on these threads then all that's left is a load of hopeless whinging about some of the more pressing issues that we in the RAF and the military in general are facing right now?

[CrabInCab]

Wow, I never thought it was the suit case that gave it away. I just looked for the fat wheezy tosser vacuum packed in a dirty flying suit


Harsh but possibly the funniest quote on PPRUNE this year.

:}

[Two's in]

So please, can we take off the rose-tinted specs and get back to talking about some of the more pressing issues that we in the RAF and the military in general are facing right now?

Edicts such as this gave a very insightful look into the morale, motivation and well-being of an organisation. When Commanders have the time to address "boots and mail" issues, it usually demonstrates that:

a. They have so little control over the pressing matters of the day they might as well handle the trivia.
or;
b. They have zero grasp of the concept of incentivising their units and working cohesively.
or;
c. They found their mother getting an extra portion of salami from a Samsonite salesman when they were 5.

Either way, the "rule of 2" applies - i.e. in 2 years either I'll be gone or that knob will be gone.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Samsonite's, think he might be a bit too busy this week advertising for a new Chief Blunty to worry about how we carry our clothes round the bazaars :p

[Henry09]

Wow, I never thought it was the suit case that gave it away. I just looked for the fat wheezy tosser vacuum packed in a dirty flying suit

What CrabinCab said!

Had me giggling for ages, wifey thought I had gone nuts.

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Samsonite's, think he might be a bit too busy this week advertising for a new Chief Blunty to worry about how we carry our clothes round the bazaars :p

Would you care to elaborate?

[BEagle]

...they are to lug their kit in Op black bags around the terminals and hotels of the world...
A 'Gladston Bag', presumably?

[StopStart]

As I lie here in my tent freezing my nads off at 0645 on this fine Cornish morning, it warms me greatly to learn that it's Ops Normal at Lyneham! Love it :)


Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose
Samsonite's, think he might be a bit too busy this week advertising for a new Chief Blunty to worry about how we carry our clothes round the bazaars
Would you care to elaborate?

Yes, this sounds much more fun.....go on.....?

[Ken Scott]

A 'Gladston Bag', presumably?

Now that was funny! (Much more so than the offensive bit about overwieght Herc aircrew!)

[Blighter Pilot]

Actually it was a throw away line from the Staish that appears to have become gospel!

More worryingly, I can't believe some of the utter ****e being posted by people on here who clearly have no idea what a great leader he actually is.
:mad:

[back end o' the bus]

I had the honour of serving on the same Sqn, and have the utmost respect, but to ban "Samsonite Warriors!" is as mad as closing the Wiltshire Centre of Excellence for Airlift! :=

[StopStart]

Come come BP, don't ruin the insane rumour fun!! Throwaway Line becomes Gospel? I'm pretty sure that's how Lyneham's done business for years isn't it? Pah....
:ok:

[ALM In Waiting]

Might take mine on my next Det, nothing like stereotyping yourself :}

[Torque Tonight]

I guess 'Samsonite' has been a dirty word ever since that dim bint on the Herc fleet starred in the infamous cringingly awful Times article from a few years back.

All ME heroes can henceforth expect to have their makeup bags confiscated and their pencils with little pink feathers and a bell on top banned.

A Life in the Day: Caz Leavey - Times Online (http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article1344341.ece)

[Really annoyed]

That is what I like about pprune. Somebody casts their line and catches a few little fishes and even when others can see them being caught they step up. Hey torque.

[Torque Tonight]

Cheers, RA. Actually just an excuse to cause a little further embarrassment to the good Flt Lt. How is she doing these days?

[Really annoyed]

just an excuse to cause a little further embarrassment to the good Flt Lt

Don't even know the person you are on about. Why would you want to embarrass her? Did she blow you out? Did you crash and burn? Did she go for your ginger mate or something? Very manly of you though.:rolleyes:.

Wait a minute that article is dated February 11, 2007!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She must have really pissed you off if you still hold that big a grudge.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

TT,

Unlike her blunty counterpart she is as happy as a happy thing :ok:

[Lockstock]

How is she doing these days?

Sorry to break the bad news but she is doing very well.

Well done for attempting the cheap shot though.

[minigundiplomat]

Having observed this thread without comment, I'd now like to add my thoughts.

All for trivia threads and the samasonite is pretty fundamental to AT Ops, but is this the time to air this in front of other fleets/services?

The 'dim bint' is still serving. I had the pleasure of meeting her on a course last year where the article came up. She maintains it was misquoted and I have no reason to doubt her.

Having launched a thread on what is effectively a defence of the 'stereotype' hated by the other two services, as the RAF struggles to explain it's continued existence is one thing, to name and flame a serving colleague is another.

As a neutral observer, I have formed an opinion of the Lyneham Wg as a bunch of triv obsessed, self serving backstabbers.

I know that opinion is wrong, but you don't make it easy!

With respect to those working hard at LYE, much of the problem probably comes from TT ommitting the W@ from his moniker.

[bakseetblatherer]

^Haha. I enjoyed my time holding on 47, even got to go on routes and booze around Europe :) Also got issued with a DPM flying jacket 'cos at the time we all had to disembark and go everywhere in exactly the same rig. Some people never got issued cold weather jackets so DPM it was. Still have said DPM jacket somewhere, in remarkably good nick.

[BlackadderIA]

Why did we all stop using our trusty Samsonites? Mover-proof, waterproof, you could wheel it around rather than hump it everywhere and you could even sit on it when under taking military waiting.
Shame you would get laughed out of brize for having one nowadays - might have to invest in one of those big black US footlocker thingys instead.

[gijoe]

Caz Leafey thing still as pathetic and Blackadderish as when it came out. I hope she still cringes as much now...:p

Suitcases -well you are all for the chop soon anyway - but any chance to try and be as 'warry' as you can be now would be good. :zzz:

Bring on the SDSR!

G:ok:

[Rigga]

Shouldn't you all get Samsonite Cases as survival equipment?

I mean you can put 14 troops in them (or two aircrew) and sail away from mid atlantic ditchings, or slide down South American mountains, put four of then in a square and fight off revolting Red Indians, hold enough rations for the complement of a small ship - or two aircrew... etc, etc.

[Really annoyed]

As a neutral observer, I have formed an opinion of the Lyneham Wg as a bunch of triv obsessed, self serving backstabbers.Uh oh the warrier chief tech has spoken. Have you actually had a posting to Lyneham? All I can see is a pathetic little pprune warrier who probably has never been outside of this country. If you are actually in the RAF, and I doubt that very much, where do you work?

Caz Leafey thing still as pathetic and Blackadderish as when it came out. I hope she still cringes as much now...

Caz Leafy? You don't even know her do you. You do realise that from the article her name is Caz Leavy.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

What a great shame it is that the dear departed Chas Fin-kelcy isn't still around. He'd have a ball with all of this stuff!

Romper's Green live's-on!

RIP dear chap.

[Dengue_Dude]

Yes to Rompers Green - still got it (electronically now of course).

Please tell me this thread is a joke . . .

[minigundiplomat]

Uh oh the warrier chief tech has spoken. Have you actually had a posting to Lyneham? All I can see is a pathetic little pprune warrier who probably has never been outside of this country. If you are actually in the RAF, and I doubt that very much, where do you work?



Really Annoyed,

I'm beginning to think you have ADHD (ask your mum) and are incapable of reading and digesting a whole post. So I'll break it down into manageable chunks for you mate.


Uh oh the warrier chief tech has spoken.


Firstly, warrier is actually spelt 'warrior'. I am neither a warrior or a chief tech. I am not any type of tech. Most people on here have already sort of figured that out, but I'm sure you'll catch up eventually.

I've actually visited 60 odd countries, a fair few of which dont exist anymore. My favourite at the moment is a part of Afghanistan (that's East of Essex) called Helmand.

Yes, Ive spent 5 years at Lyneham.

I work at Odiham.

I do hope that has helped. I am committed to working with underprivileged kids, especially those with learning difficulties. With that in mind, if you have any other questions, I'll be happy to sit down and go through them with you.

[rusty_monkey]

Not been invented. Put a TPU on top of it! place them at the bottom of the stack and tension the net so tight they pop the seems. drive the noddy or forklift over them; we love a challenge. As for gorrilla boxes, even easier. the best bit is now we can charge you for excess baggage for those oversized heavy bags and gorilla boxes. (try a northface bag or similair, water proof, large capacity and mover proof ish).

Whilst trying to find something suitable to wind up the two wing types I found these posh new samsonites (Mover P*rn)

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:nIlNdsyqXRNBRM:http://www.geekologie.com/2008/10/30/obag-1.jpg (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geekologie.com/2008/10/30/obag-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geekologie.com/mt/mt-search.cgi%3Ftag%3Dwheel%26blog_id%3D1&usg=__yNLWIptJ66awkkKCosa_sqOGQJg=&h=387&w=450&sz=23&hl=en&start=65&zoom=1&tbnid=nIlNdsyqXRNBRM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddamaged%2Bsamsonite%26start%3D60%26hl%3Den%26sa %3DN%26gbv%3D1%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1) Samsonite round OOOhhh

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ay3giz_o10tiBM:http://elitechoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/live_luggage.jpg (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://elitechoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/live_luggage.jpg&imgrefurl=http://elitechoice.org/tag/travel/page/9/&usg=__DyCOoO4XF1Q22L-SwtFBmeVxe8k=&h=345&w=450&sz=35&hl=en&start=69&zoom=1&tbnid=ay3giz_o10tiBM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSquashed%2Bluggage%26start%3D60%26hl%3Den%26sa% 3DN%26gbv%3D1%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1)Rechargeable electric motors Travel | Elite Choice - Part 9 (http://elitechoice.org/tag/travel/page/9/)

Finally please enjoy

YouTube - Real Men of Genius - Mr Airport Baggage Handler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph_-SLXbDPE)

[diginagain]

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-popcorn.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

[Biggus]

Enough of the Samsonite tosh......what is the score with these comments regarding the chief blunty at Lyneham?

[Gainesy]

Warrier Chief Tech than what?

Knew one who liked bayonets. He was a bit strange, he was Welsh though.

What's with the Blunty, been embezzeling duvets?:)

[The Nr Fairy]

Is embezzling duvets the same as getting togged up ?

[minigundiplomat]

I don't know, but Ive heard it gets you down.

[Shack37]

I've actually visited 60 odd countries, a fair few of which dont exist anymore. My favourite at the moment is a part of Afghanistan (that's East of Essex) called Helmand.

Yes, Ive spent 5 years at Lyneham.

I work at Odiham.

I do hope that has helped. I am committed to working with underprivileged kids, especially those with learning difficulties. With that in mind, if you have any other questions, I'll be happy to sit down and go through them with you.


40/15 to MGD. Awaiting reply from really annoyed who is now really furious.

We didn't have samsonites OR duvets when I was in. (added to avoid thread drift)

[Gainesy]

Thinking about it, having a Samsonite flanking your seat when inbound to places where random AK rounds are not unusual is not a bad idea at all. Sort of high tech sandbag.
No dafter than a floor full of chain?

[P6 Driver]

"Wow, I never thought it was the suit case that gave it away. I just looked for the fat wheezy tosser vacuum packed in a dirty flying suit"

Here's someone in a flying suit earlier this year. It looked clean but I can't vouch for his character.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4081/4763773113_55672773c3.jpg

The stitching appeared to be on the "at risk" register.

[brakedwell]

If the Samsonites were painted in camouflage colours (with discrete roundels on the side) would they be acceptable? BTW are those grotty old Nav Bags still in fashion?

[Gainesy]

They are WSOs now, whatever the sex.

[Dengue_Dude]

BTW are those grotty old Nav Bags still in fashion?

Cor, I remember how 'grown up' I felt when I got my first one . . .

Mind you, I still have the grey wooden pencil boxes which are in daily use.

I'm still trying to get my head round the edict 'no Samsonites'. It appears that the 'thinking' (if any) is to clearly identify being military - a total anathema when I was in (and yes, times change).

My trusty one lasted all my years on Hercs/Tristars until Manchester baggage handlers managed the impossible and broke the handle.

My 'new' Samsonite lives empty in the loft now - thank God. I just feel SOo sorry for those who are still being nibbled at in this fashion.

[charliegolf]

It appears that the 'thinking' (if any) is to clearly identify being military

I'd have thought being in a war, flying military aeroplanes for a living and being at regular risk of death would be quite enough to single the boys and girls out as military. Samsonites banned, my ar@e. (Note the comma:ok:)

CG

[500days2do]

Amusing comment..

Wow, I never thought it was the suit case that gave it away. I just looked for the fat wheezy tosser vacuum packed in a dirty flying suit....!!
Obviously "2 dinners" is a far better commander....really..!!!
Looking good in a body bag was never one of my desires...

This is infact quite possibly a comment made by the present Staish whilst he was mascarading as a Flight Commander in a previous life...yes he has always been an arrogant t$$t.

But then he was part of the problem then, and still is I'm sure...Mr Smoke Screen would be a better name for him...The problems within his "Flight" which, IMHO added to the disaster of XV 179, macho posturing to his Army buddies and the ability to turn a national asset into a flying club with no teeth will always sit as his door.

5d2d....out and glad of it.

[The Gorilla]

500

Just googled him! My hasn't he risen far and fast!!

Nice cushy little postings on the way too!!

I have to agree with all you say..:\

[TOPBUNKER]

500. Do you really mean 193?
Startrek 3, Blair Athol, May 1993?
I believe current Staish was a co-pilot at the time.

[Gainesy]

The aircraft shot down N of Baghdad? How so?

[nigegilb]

XV 298 crashed on a strip at Kukes on a special mission. The briefing, according to the crew and not published, appeared to be a contributory factor to the crash.

XV 179 was shot down North of Baghdad. If the Flight Commander of that section, (the same person as above), had acted on the information presented to him, 3 years prior to the attack, the aircraft and crew, would most probably have survived the incident. The Barristers at the Inquest were certainly questioning of the evidence presented.

[500days2do]

Apologies to all for my error, it was due to a purple mist moment.

I totally agree with Nige....having lived with the decisions and approach of the individual in discussion, and should I say the approach of his team during his tenure, it was always going to "end in tears"

5d2d

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

didn't he hit some troops in a vehicle on T/O in 2003 as well?

[Darkside2]

500d2d......may I ask if you were ever part of his 'team'....or are you talking as an outsider? I consider myself fortunate to be part of his 'team' which saw the Hercules make great leaps forward in it's capabilities and what it was used for in Afghanistan 2003, Sierra Leone and then Iraq. He, in fact, stopped the 'country club' mentality and turned it into a very professional outfit....

As regards XV179, I am sure the personalities involved on that aircraft would have had their own views on their flt profile and chose to do the route they did, nothing to do with the current Staish's advice. For those that knew Steady, Gary Nic et al I am sure you will agree. The flukey shot that brought them down should be remembered for just what it was: a shot in a million....

Yes, he did hit a vehicle on T/O and I was airborne and in the vicinity to hear his mayday call.......He was blameless for that, the vehicle driver was at fault so please no mud slinging which is totally unjustified.....

Let's not let what started out as a fun comment about samsonites (and yes, mine too has remained well hidden out of view for a very long time...!) degenerate into a personal attack on a very capable individual....

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Darkside - no mud slinging from me, merely stating a fact!

Having been 'around' when he was the Flt Cdr, and before and after his tenure, I can tell you that the Flt never lost its boys club attitude and I witnessed a wholesale lack of professionalism many many times.

If you want, I am quite happy to publish them on here - no I thought not!

The fact is, if JG thought something as trivial as banning Samonsites would get him further up the tree, he would do it!

HPT

[Vie sans frontieres]

Shouldn't a thread that seems to be developing into the story of what happens when Herc pilots from a certain flight take themselves a bit too seriously be linked to the one entitled No - really - I wasn't chopped - honestly! :)

Cue lots of people telling us they joined the RAF to fly Hercs.:ok:

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

VSF

Nice one........frustrated FJ pilots flying rubber dog**** from Hereford......

[500days2do]

Darkside2...made me giggle...

Yes you are right, I wasn't part of the childish 'team' who lived at the end of the corridor...thank god!
But, yes, we did our bit to ensure that the Darkside(sic) could play at being important.
As for defending your leader, well that is your own perogative.

5d2d

[nigegilb]

DS2, I was out there when XV298 happened and I was handed the original documents that set out the case for foam which wasn't acted on in 2002. In short, I stand by my comments, probably best to leave it there and get back to suitcases.

Regards,

[flipster]

Cue lots of people telling us they joined the RAF to fly Hercs.

I always wanted to fly Hercs because of the excellent quality of food, the in-flight rest facilities and the attractive flight attendants..:eek::eek: ......?

However, you could occasionally get half a cup of coffee while at low-level - which always brightened things up!

Has anyone noticed the ads on this site (if not logged on)? There's one for

"80% OFF Samsonites"..........!:)

[brakedwell]

I always wanted to fly Hercs because of the excellent quality of food, the in-flight rest facilities and the attractive flight attendants.. ......?


I left the fun world of Ascot to enjoy the excellent quality of food, the in-flight rest facilities and the attractive flight attendants provided by my new employers :E :E.

. . . and my kermit green Samsonite, which knew it's own way to Changi, was relegated to the attic and replaced with a smart black version more in keeping with my new image. :cool::cool:

[Ray Dahvectac]

I still have a Samsonite suit carrier bought in the USA in mid-77. The original [plastic :yuk: ] hangers are long gone but a snazzy little accessory which allows proper hangers to be used has proved invaluable.

So drifting away from the original post just slightly ... oldest piece of Samsonite luggage still in current use?

[Ken Scott]

oldest piece of Samsonite luggage still in current use?

My traditional black one is nearly brand new in comparison to yours at a mere 20 years old.

At least it will get to remain in tiptop condition now that I'm not allowed to use it.........

[StopStart]

May I suggest a stockpiling of now unused suitcases in both Gander and Aktotiri such that once one has escaped the Lyneham Electromagnet with all your clothes stuffed in a jolly smart issue black bag, one can transfer everything to a far more practical suitcase at the first nightstop?

[sisemen]

What a cracking thread! Ban Samsonite? Who does the banning? A Blunty?? Nope. Aircrew PBTA (Promoted Beyond Their Abilites). That's what! Cracker.

My Samsonite(s) were bought in the PX at Cold Lake during a Maple Flag. I've still got 'em even though one of them was in the back of my car when my (ex) wife managed to incinerate the car. The suitcase survived - albeit with some black patches.

[BEagle]

Of course, in the Good Old Days ('back in the day' in the current vernacular), the issuer of this ridiculous edict would very soon find himself on the mailing list for all Samsonite product literature.....:E

Are these 'jolly smart' issue black Gladstone Bags actually waterproof, let alone mover-proof?

[Dengue_Dude]

Are these 'jolly smart' issue black Gladstone Bags actually waterproof, let alone mover-proof?

I would think the BAGS are, however the contents would probably be trashed on the first flight!

Whatever . . .

Sitting here on my couch, it still sounds like a ridiculous idea, however, it might be different when viewed from the office at the top of the stairs (unless he's moved of course). Who knows?

[charliegolf]

What, in all seriousness, would happen if everyone ignored the 'ban the bag' edict? Banned from war?

CG

[Matt Skrossa]

Good to see that those promoted to their level of incompetence when under pressure find comfort in concentrating on trivia.

How about one of you fat albert boys approaching Samsonite to see if they make a special edition hard suitcase for C130 crews (a bit like leather flying jackets for FJ poseurs). The case could be a nice shade of grey with simulated oil stains, greasy food marks and dribbled coffee. For the older generation they could provide a similar model but in nice two-tone brown.

[flipster]

[QUOTE][/How about one of you fat albert boys approaching Samsonite to see if they make a special edition hard suitcase for C130 crews (a bit like leather flying jackets for FJ poseurs). QUOTE]

Or you buy one of these and add your own grease-marks and coffee-stains!

Heys USA Camouflage Prints 3 Piece Luggage Set - Camo Blue (http://www.leatherandbags.com/product-p/d205-cab.htm)

Hmm... its odd they are out of stock; maybe JG has nabbed them all and wants a monopoly!?

[Ken Scott]

Flip, a good piece of research, maybe they should be issuing them?

[deltahotel]

In 1991 when it was all a bit busy, the new OC30 put the following into practice:

New chair covers in the crew room, no more than 2 mugs of tea to be carried unless on a tray, Viz banned.

[Top Bunk Tester]

That would have been the Fat Controller (TM) then :rolleyes:

[deltahotel]

That's the one.

[Gainesy]

Just "Big-Boned", Shirley?

[Ken Scott]

Sound grasp of the non essential?
In 1991 when it was all a bit busy, the new OC30 put the following into practice:

New chair covers in the crew room, no more than 2 mugs of tea to be carried unless on a tray, Viz banned.

Presumeably an extension of the old adage, 'Look after the pennies & the pounds will look after themselves', into the senior officer's 'look after the trivia & the important stuff will take care off itself'. Or maybe it reflects their powerlessness in the big issues?

Has Brize Norton also banned Samsonites, or can we look forward to having the right to choose our own luggage once Future Brize has taken effect?

Every cloud has a silver lining? (About the only one I can think of....!)

[BEagle]

Don't be too sure - Lyneham doesn't hold the monopoly on daft triv.

Some years ago, a Brize Stn Cdr (the infamous 'Thrombo') ordained that brightly coloured cycling helmets were not to be worn with military clothing whilst cycling. Bugger the safety they offered, if they weren't 'military' enough, they weren't permitted.......:mad:

[Ken Scott]

But what was wrong with cycling in your Kevlar helmet? Much more military. And don't ignore the protection offered by an SD hat. :rolleyes:

[November4]

brightly coloured cycling helmets were not to be worn with military clothing whilst cycling. Bugger the safety they offered, if they weren't 'military' enough, they weren't permitted.......

Will that be reintroduced when the Brize cycle path is in use for those living less than 3 miles (or what ever the distance is) off camp?

[Grimweasel]

Well, I have to say that many people in the RAF may knock JG but I think he's a top bloke and he's very well respected amongst the other services. The main reason some people find his leadership style abrasive is because they have been too used to getting their own way all the time in the lax RAF command chain. Some crews just took the pi$$ wrt to supporting the troops on ex abroad etc.( You know the types - claiming crew duty hours and bluffing people with regulations to suit own alcoholic agendas!)

Luckily the current Op environment has managed to quash a lot of the 'old boys flying club' mentality that existed prior to 2001! I'm all for it. The clue is in the title - Royal Air FORCE! Not fecking Virgin or BA - get a grip (literally) and don the PLCE bergans!!

[Union Jack]

The fact is, if JG thought something as trivial as banning Samonsites would get him further up the tree, he would do it!

Are these 'jolly smart' issue black Gladstone Bags actually waterproof, let alone mover-proof?

Now this is what I call a Gladstone, rather than a Gladston, Bag:
Mens Leather Gladstone Bag - Handmade Holdall from Italy (http://www.maxwellscottbags.com/p/Leather-Luggage/Gassano-Leather-Gladstone-Bag.html?gclid=CKWyvaqlsqQCFUU14wodRQka1Q)

so why don't "Backside" et al, who also presumably want to get further up the tree, club together and buy him one?:E A snip at a mere £342.99 - and somehow, with Darkside involved, "Dark Chocolate" sounds appropriate .....:eek:

Jack

[Really annoyed]

You know the types - claiming crew duty hours and bluffing people with regulations to suit own alcoholic agendas!
Come on then, lets hear the evidence for the prosecution. No? I thought not.:hmm:

[Ken Scott]

Luckily the current Op environment has managed to quash a lot of the 'old boys flying club' mentality that existed prior to 2001! I'm all for it. The clue is in the title - Royal Air FORCE! Not fecking Virgin or BA - get a grip (literally) and don the PLCE bergans!!

Not sure that's Lyneham as I remember it before 2001. True, we weren't particularly good at the operational stuff but that's because we didn't do it that much, and all the squadrons are a great deal more 'combat ready' these days. I don't think things were as bad as you make out, unless you're talking from purely personal experience.....

Crew duty & other regulations are not options to be deployed when it suits, they are the rules as applied to our operations.

As for bergens, I shoulder mine everytime I deploy into theatre. If I happen to be fortunate enough to get a route to somewhere half decent in between detachments then my clothes come out less creased from a (Samsonite) suitcase than they will from an op bag or rucsac - not a particular consideration on Ops but who wants to look like a bag of s**t in a nice restaurant when I'm enjoying my JPA actuals meal?

[flipster]

Grim

I hear what you're saying. One person might assess a boss as an arrogant to$$er but another might assess him as a top bloke and leader. It all depends on one's viewpoint and what the majority of others think that defines the outcome.

As far JG is concerned, I would suggest that the jury is still out. However, I do have some sympathy with his plight, as I once tried to get people to be more 'op-centric' and to do away with the Samonites and take only camo-bags on deployment. That is until my tent got wet and I realised the value of the said civ-luggage! That said, I maintained that only op-bags were taken 'sausage-side' and that they and the kit with which we flew, were 'sanitised' - I think that most appreciated the reasons for this and complied.

OTOH, I was saddened by his lack of openness to the 'lighter end' of the corridor. He claimed OPSEC - My @rse! His 3 predecessors had managed to allow the cross-flow of ideas across the sqn during on-going spec ops. So, if he had been a little less introspective and overconfident, then he may have learnt a few lessons from the rest of 'us plebs', for whom he appeared to have so little time.

His attitude to anyone other than 'special' was highly apparent in the Coroner's Inquest into 179 and it did him or the Sqn absolutely no favours. It underlines why a career in one specialist field is not ideal for someone with aspirations of high-rank. I sincerely hope he has learnt to open his eyes to the bigger picture and appreciate there is always more than one point of view which may have merit; that way is the only way to improve as an officer. For better or worse, the choice is his alone.

[doingthedeid]

I had the pleasure of working for JG. Legend. That is all.

[talon215]

For those of you who haven't figured out who i am from my prrune name please disregard. For the likes of 'Ken Scott', HPT and 500 days blah etc, i think it is you lot that have a firm grasp of the none essentials. I was the other side of the door for a long time and never vented what i considered to be a lack of professionalism from some of the main sqn crews. I took the cowboy banter and for years i deployed on dets (not just california or routes and before 2001 when it became en vogue for the rest of you) while the majority of lyneham went on long look cross ske and all the other pre 2001 pointless jollies. I remember a lot of belly aching and moaning and i especially remember a crew that were 12 hours late delivering stuff to 'our' det because they couldn't leave Amman without catering for a 4 hour flight. Frankly the captain could of surivived about 5 years on his own body fat alone but that is another palm tree story...
In short, the previous 3 stn cdrs did nothing but at best keep a steady ship and keep their heads down. Nobody did any force developement and any that was attempted was vehmently boycotted at the grass roots. The current staish took over an shambles and frankly anybody who thinks the K will survive SDSR is either dillusional, piss@d or an old nav. Without the current staish, lye would have just ticked along. To drag up the dirt about previous mishaps is below the belt. If i were to go through all the mishaps that happened on the main sqns while i was at lye, it would take up most of prrunes bandwidth. In terms of leadership, i think he is probably the only person above Wg Cdr who actually know how to spooll it. So, man up and stop using the samsonite issue as a means to slag someone off.
I have only ever previously used this site to monitor the operational risk to my crews when people were chuntering about stuff they didn't know or understand while i had crews stranded at a forward location who were vulnerable to enemy OA as a direct result from the sh@te that was being spouted on here. Frankly, it is the people on here who have too much time on their hands. Please do the usual and post higlighting spelling mistakes etc as i will not be reading this forum again. Later losers................

[Kreuger flap]

http://blog.whatfettle.com/archives/Footy/handbags.jpg

Oooooooooooohhh somebodies tired....................

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Talon.......I was never on 47 SF or a C130 main sqn crew (perhaps my pprune name might be a clue) but have a very intimate knowledge of what went on behing the 'special' door. Trust me, you know the meaning of ''its good to be gash'' and it wasn't good!

Hiding behind ''need to know'' has been used by 47 SF and others to hide a disgraceful disrespect for following rules and SOPs which has caused aircraft to be damaged and lives to have been lost.

Perhaps you are the deluded one.........

HPT

[500days2do]

Obviously touched a raw open sore...if my PM box is anything to go by...:{

HPT hits it full square with his comments.:D:D:D

5d2d

[talon215]

:eek:You were never crew or on the flt and you think that you have the knowledge to post here about the flight, its procedures and what we did or why.At best you are a GE, at worse an op cpl. I am glad that it was need to know or you would be spouting the real sensitive stuff that you were clearly not capable of understanding. As for damaging ac or people, what on earth are you blabbing about, yet another theorist, even flipster or nigeg would not lay that at this door....and they at least know what they are talking about. Taxi for Mr Walter Mitty..................:suspect:

[Biggus]

An outsiders perspective......

When I went through IOT we studied supposedly great RAF wartime leaders, like Bader and Gibson. However, in both these particular cases there were two distinct camps - the love em and hate em. Baders groundcrew were supposedly overjoyed when he was shot down, while Gibsons groundcrew may well have killed his dog. Leadership, especially during wartime, is not a popularity contest, but there is a difference between leadership and dictatorship. There are also considerations in a (largely) peacetime RAF, such as career development, that didn't apply in WW2 which may call for a less forceful approach.

I don't know this particular individual (JG?) but opinions seem to be polarized into two camps in his case - once again you seem to either like/respect/admire him or not, with little or no middle ground. So, at least on that basis, he is similar to both Bader and Gibson.



Talon - I thought you weren't going to read this site again?

[nigegilb]

I am sure he won't be the least concerned by this thread, he has been given a job to see through the closure of Lyneham and then he will move on. I am still in contact with one of the family's affected by the crash of XV179. They talk of a jaw dropping moment when he was giving his evidence at the inquest. It has been described as a combinationof arrogance and total lack of humility. For me this was his most disappointing moment.

[Really annoyed]

as i will not be reading this forum again.

You were never crew or on the flt and you think that you have the knowledge to post here about the flight, its procedures and what we did or why.At best you are a GE, at worse an op cpl. I am glad that it was need to know or you would be spouting the real sensitive stuff that you were clearly not capable of understanding. As for damaging ac or people, what on earth are you blabbing about, yet another theorist, even flipster or nigeg would not lay that at this door....and they at least know what they are talking about. Taxi for Mr Walter Mitty..................

Oh dear, they really have hit a raw nerve. I guess you are still reading then.

[talon215]

yes i am still reading-hoping for something a bit better really. Kreugers was funny though! 500 days to go, great that you have some pm's i am really pleased for you. Shame that you have nothing to add to the debate. Nigegb, i came on here after my ex- unit was effectively called gash etc by somebody who is not even qualified on type let alone aircrew. Having flown with you on many occasions it is a shame that people can say what they like without ever admitting who they are or what they do-unlike you. Cheers:ugh:
Biggus-very fair analysis, but what can i say, maybe i am now :eek:hooked on prune.dear christ....

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Nigegb, i came on here after my ex- unit was effectively called gash

Are you saying they were not gash :confused:

[sitigeltfel]

When I went through IOT we studied supposedly great RAF wartime leaders, like Bader and Gibson. However, in both these particular cases there were two distinct camps - the love em and hate em.There is a saying that you should never meet your heroes as you will only be disappointed. I met Bader once, when he visited Manston along with Adolph Galland. Galland was a perfect gentleman who chatted to everyone regardless of rank, whereas Bader managed to upset everyone, from the CO downwards.

[talon215]

sffp. Correct.:D What say you.

[nigegilb]

Talon, relax, people have always sniped at the flight, but for many years 47sqn was the most decorated sqn (current ops) in the RAF. The critics will never know what it was like and sadly it has changed forever nowadays. In terms of capability due to cut backs and fewer training opportunities it is also probably past it's high point. The problem was the refusal to listen to non flight personnel. But for me, the high point of the esprit de corps was the way the crew reacted to the crash of XV 298.

Perhaps this thread should be put to bed, I agree with you, it is so easy to criticise when your name is hidden from view.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

sffp. Correct.:D What say you.

What, they were not gash or you are saying they were not gash :confused:

[talon215]

sffp wtf?........

[Nomorefreetime]

There are a few quotes of 'Need to Know'. All you need to know is there are no planes to go to Samsonite places, so like mine they can gather dust in the loft. :)

[Ken Scott]

Oh dear, it's all got rather heated.

I started this thread to have a laugh at a piece of trivia, and I haven't enjoyed all of the posts that have vented a considerable amount of spleen about JG. I don't know him that well as I've never been on the Flt and I only know him as the Staish. He has always seemed a reasonable chap when we've spoken but that doesn't mean I can't poke fun at what was a rather silly decision, particularly as the 'Samsonite opportunities' are fairly thin on the ground these days.

I do however disagree that Lyneham was a shambles before he arrived, the station has always ticked along rather well despite rather than because of the leadership. The Hercules world has changed enormously in the past 2 decades, and much of it for the good operationally, although I believe it to be rather less fun than it was. Your perspective on whether that's a good thing is obviously a personal matter....

[The Equivocator]

HPT

Now let's put a few things together shall we...

You're a helicopter man, with an opinion on the CH47, you have an 'intimate' knowledge of what goes on on 47 Sqn and you're in Australia....

Well that kind of narrows you down a little and judging by your rather twa**ish and ill considered opinions I think I know who you are. If not, my second and third goes will be better.

Now, whilst we're on the subject of better, YOU should know better than to post inflammatory rubbish on an open forum. You might also remember that you signed a Non-Dislosure-Agreement and something called the OSA. One of your earlier posts is clearly in contravention of these and I would urge you to delete. That the info might be in the public arena is neither here-nor-there...

Slagging Gladis off in public is really weak as a former colleague, especially when you hide behind anonymity. I am honour bound to defend him as he is both a mate and a top bloke; you are clearly neither.

Finally, you're mud slinging is ill-judged and demonstrates your weakness. If you'd had any cojones, you should have resolved your concerns when you were in a position of authority to do so. If you are who I think you are, you were in the perfect position to resolve...

You served on an excellent unit, but as good as it is, JSFAW (or 7 Sqn) has it's own skeletons. They're kept in the cupboard next to the spare tail pylons & rotors. I wouldn't wish to see them aired on here any more than I would wish to see my own units.

To coin your phrase "No, I thought not."

PS I thought about posting this under a different name to really vent my spleen, but frankly, I don't care if you work out who I am. You didn't have a great opinion of me anyhow, and I'll live with that.

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

They're kept in the cupboard next to the spare tail pylons & rotors

Haha - having an accident is one thing, being gash is another.

If you'd had any cojones, you should have resolved your concerns when you were in a position of authority to do so. If you are who I think you are, you were in the perfect position to resolve..

Difficult when some folk have 'protected' status.

I don't care if you work out who I am

I couldn't give a fig who you are either.

You didn't have a great opinion of me anyhow

So you were one of the gash ones too......?

[The Equivocator]

Nail. Head. Hit. I'll take that as a yes.

There's accidents and accidents chap. One man's gash is another man's too much pitch...

You would probably consider it gash, but I would probably consider it adaptive. You adapt your SOP and I'll adapt mine...

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Mate, why don't you go away and research what you are saying. The BOI report from the incident you are referring to makes no mention of deliberately breaking any rules, procedures or SOPs. I can't recall any 7 Sqn/JSFAW incident in recent history that has either.

Being adaptive is what being highly effective on operations is all about. Exceeding aircraft limitations or failing to follow a well established risk managed procedure is another issue.

How much time exactly was spent sorting out Flt related incidents in STC/2 Gp and another HQ. Just think how much further we could have genuinely developed capability if we hadn't been painting over the chasms....

HPT

[talon215]

Equiv,:D
That is very funny. Now it is apparent who HPT is, it all fits into place. If only we were all as good as 7 Sqn. As i remember HPT, the bloke you seem to enjoy slagging off did more for your outfits capdev during his grd tour than most of your flt cdrs. Do us all a favour and stay in oz.

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Talon,

Nigegilb encapsulated the Flt's ethos quite well:

arrogance and total lack of humility

Your post supports that quite neatly.

If only we were all as good as 7 Sqn

Well its nice of you to say that; not something that I have said.

HPT

[The Equivocator]

Why don't you bite a bit harder...:{

The BOI report from the incident you are referring to makes no mention of deliberately breaking any rules, procedures or SOPs. I can't recall any 7 Sqn/JSFAW incident in recent history that has either.

Is the word deliberate in there for a reason...? I assume therefore that adopting an excessively high nose attitude close to the ground was part of your SOP...? Just wondering like...as I would love to be as non-gash and competent as you. Maybe you were just unlucky and your mother didn't like you either...?


How much time exactly was spent sorting out Flt related incidents in STC/2 Gp and another HQ. Just think how much further we could have genuinely developed capability if we hadn't been painting over the chasms....

You would seem to be in a better position to answer this than I, being as you were so very important. Luckily you're not airing any more dirty linen in public.

It's interesting how one's opinion can often be confirmed. I always considered you a nice bloke, until I discovered that you had said one thing to my face and then said something different about my professional competence when out of camera. You had the opportunity, but not the cojones...History seems to be repeating itself...?

That's my dirty linen cleaned now, moving on!

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Yes, because deliberate flounting oif rules was seen as game by some.

I assume therefore that adopting an excessively high nose attitude close to the ground was part of your SOP.

Can I suggest that you read the BOI report and see what it says before making assumptions about causal and contributory factors.

You would seem to be in a better position to answer this than I, being as you were so very important

What a silly thing to say. I don't consider myself important at all.

It's interesting how one's opinion can often be confirmed. I always considered you a nice bloke, until I discovered that you had said one thing to my face and then said something different about my professional competence when out of camera. You had the opportunity, but not the cojones...History seems to be repeating itself...?


PM me and I'll confirm if I said what you are saying is true.

HPT

[The Equivocator]

From:

I couldn't give a fig who you are either.

To:

PM me and I'll confirm if I said what you are saying is true.

In short order...Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass. But if you're willing to put your name at the bottom of the posts slagging off Gladis, I'll gladly do the same to my posts...? Now that's childish:8

As for the accident old chap, I can assure you I quoted that from the MAAS:

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/A251D082-EF3E-4504-8058-CF9747AF7A9E/0/maas99_02_chinook_hc_mkII_za704_25nov99.pdf

I didn't make any assumptions about the causal or contributory factors. You must be a bit touchy. Was it in the SOP then...?

Maybe you object to the insinuation in my post, that the too high nose attitude was someone's fault...Maybe in much the same way as I object to your insinuation that someone was at fault for hitting a vehicle on a strip.

Only stating facts old boy, only facts.

Touche...

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Mate, I'm not interested in who you are but as I said in my PM to you, if somebody down the pub has told you that I was critical of your professional ability, then you either can't recall me telling that to your face or or the 3rd party is lying.

As for your link, that is only 3 pages long and the BOI report which I have here in my hand is 8 pages long. Me thinks you might be making judgments on partial fact.....so please don't say you are only stating fact when you are not in possession of all of them.


Touche.....how very childish.

HPT

[The Equivocator]

This is most unseemly, but I love it!:E

Now, did someone mention Samsonite's were banned...?

[The Equivocator]

Not judging you chap...but isn't it ironic that you're so incredibly touchy over something which you're quite happy to do to other people.

Maybe you need help with the word insinuate, not sure you did staff college: 'Hint obliquely or unpleasantly.'

You've done it, I've done it to prove a point. Understand...?

I do hope I'm pressing your buttons.:8

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

No, not pressing buttons. I know the facts of what I have said, you clearly don't.

Not interested in ACSC....decided to say no thanks to that.

HPT

[vernon99]

Well my Samsonite is in the loft and covered in dust as it has been so long since I last used it, I cannot remember the combination, and one of the kids has locked it:ugh::}

[minigundiplomat]

And the good thing to come out of this pointless,petty and childish dick measuring exchange is......................


Anybody?

[Training Risky]

Excuse my ignorance but how closely related were JATE and the 'Flt'?...and was it a JATE or 'Flt' crew which had an incident a while back involving a landrover, a trooper, a tailgate and ultra-low level. Just curious is all...?

[The Equivocator]

MGD

In order:

I'm enjoying it.

It has stopped us slagging off a serving RAF Officer, whose identity is obvious.

It has stopped us slagging off two organisations whose names don't deserve to be dragged through the mud or whose reputations impugned in public.

Instead, we're now slagging off a former serving officer, who has sullied his own reputation. And he once said I smelt of poo.:E

The last bit wasn't true ...

[The Equivocator]

TR

Not connected and it was a JATE crew....

Your point being..?

[Training Risky]

Oh...just idly wondering if the TTPs and airmanship demonstrated in that incident had any crossover onto the Flt - as in people, attitudes, SOPs, atmos...that type of thing.

As they weren't connected I'm obviously barking up the wrong tree.

Thanks for clearing that one up for us.

Cheers!

[stumpey]

Officers, the world just wouldn't be the same without them would it?:O

[Surplus]

If anybody has found a Wheel Cover for a Blue/Green samsonite hard body case, please PM me. It was last seen abroad somewhere.

[charliegolf]

Officers, the world just wouldn't be the same without them would it?

Don't knock 'em. If there were no officer billets in the world, there'd be even more unemployable public school kids going straight into politics!

CG

[Captain Stable]

Oh, I love a good slanging match... :D

vernon, there's an answer - do what I once had to do with my flight case when some idiot - mentioning no names, Mr. Davidson - yes, you sir! - changed the combination by playing with it.

You sit down quietly in front of a good film on the telly and steadily go from 0000 towards 9999 until you get it.

function testCombo() {
if {lock.function = = "open";
return(success);
}
number = number+1
}

Simples! :8 :ok:

[Chris Kebab]

Well at least this makes a change from the normal Lyneham bleatings of my J is better than your K and my position on the flight deck is far more important than any of yours and movers are rubbish, etc, etc...

Listening to all this is providing us non Samsonite owning operators the biggest giggle since hearing about the C-130 Kenyan free-fall parachute team.

Please, please keep going.......and all you SF Flt boys do feel free to contribute to the "No - really - I wasn't chopped - honestly!" thread:ok::ok:

[philrigger]

;)

A couple of years ago I messed up the combination for my brief case by playing with about with the lock.

I 'phoned the company and they told me how to open it without knowing the number !



Phil.

[coldbuffer]

Philrigger

I thought with a name like yours, you would have used a Hammer and GS :ok:

[cornish-stormrider]

Maybe so - but a large proportion of engineer's training is how much force to use on which size combination of hammer and GS to achieve your aim.

Still a public handbag fight is always a laugh.

Yon Billy Staish comes across as either a total gimp or a top bloke - never met him so can't say. As with all these things I shall vote for top bloke until proved different

[Pontius Navigator]

And he once said I smelt of poo.:E

The last bit wasn't true ...

Which bit? That he said it?

And all this pussy-footing about names - JG, Gladys etc - a quick google search reveals all.

[nigegilb]

I am curious at your very public defending Equiv, especially as you firmly believe that the crew of XV179 should never have been operating day low level on that fateful day. Which brings me back to two of the consequences of the crash. Which were:

a. Day low level ceased,
b. Suppressant foam procured for the Hercules fleet.

So, how come the crew were down there on that day?

Well, I have had a trawl through the evidence at the inquest. The Flt Cdr makes it clear that he carried out his own risk assessment in both Afg and Iraq in which he personally decided it was appropriate to fly day low level. He did not seek recourse to the advice and guidance of AWC.
"Have you ever discussed this aspect of day low level with AWC? "
Witness "No, no need to."

He did not seek guidance from his chain of command,
Coll "Did the chain approve your day Low Level assessment?"
Witness "I didn’t need to consult them - had all the necessary op info at my fingertips."

He was asked why it was that US forces (all having the protection of foam), refused to fly day low level in Afg, (at this time), but the Coroner would not allow an answer in open court. There was no suggestion that he consulted his American colleagues about their risk assessment, nor the fact that they wouldn't even have gone in theatre without foam. In fact the advice of a serving American pilot on the section was ignored.

He was not aware of the incident involving Harley 37, a Talon, hammered with AAA but ultimately surviving a far worse attack because of ESF. But he was asked this question;
"Would your risk assessment have been assisted by knowledge of US37 Herc."
Witness "No."

When does a commitment to the job in hand become something else? Something that could be considered reckless, earning cudos to the section and the leadership, but placing the lives of those doing the job at great risk? It would appear, that this is what happened on the flight. There was absolutely no scrutiny. A complete failure of the CoC. There was little evidence of formal risk assessment procedures in place to competently assess risk. In fact there was a an apparent refusal to even listen to best practice advice from AWC.(Esp with new equipment). I am not surprised the flight no longer exists as a separate identity. I take nothing away from the people who risked their lives on that section, but the leadership was "jaw dropping" in too many ways.

If the decision to fly day low level was indeed sound judgement by the leadership, day low level would have continued and there would have been no UOR for the aircraft to have been equipped with ESF in the aftermath of the crash.


(Quotes not necessarily verbatim)

[500days2do]

:D:D:D

5d2d

[Lara crofts pants]

Time this thread disappeared I reckon.

[Dengue_Dude]

I knew Gary Nic quite well, in fact help train him at 6FTS and met him again on 47 Main.

My feelings about all that I've read above (that doesn't involve Samsonites) is a sadness.

There is undoubtedly a line between gung-ho/can do and using all aids available to make safety a top concern. Sadly it's all interpreted by where you are looking at it from.

I guested with SF on a couple of occasions and was struck by the can-do attitude, when does this attitude become 'recklessness'?

I don't know.

But I salute all of you who DO know. I live in a world of varying shades of grey, but many of you live in blacks and whites. Good luck, it must be nice to have the wisdom of Solomon. I'm afraid I just don't have that.

I'm sad for Gary and his work-mates, more-so for the families and colleagues.

Tearing each other to pieces here really doesn't further anyone's cause . . . does it? Perhaps it does - but it does smack of the exercising of egoes.

[The Equivocator]

Agree with LCP.

Any chances of this going now...?

[StopStart]

NG

Could I suggest you take your personal vendetta against JG elsewhere? He lives nearby - why not pop round and express your opinions face to face rather than continually churning out the same old tired stuff on here?

:mad:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Might just drop this thread into the conversation at the WO's lunch this Thurstag :p

[St Johns Wort]

Bet you pint you dont..........

Wager to be settled at the end of November, usual venue?:)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

At 53 with a med discharge in the offing bet I do, mines a bitter, type to be sorted in "that" pub mit Couchman and Sullivan :ok:

[Willard Whyte]

Whilst I have no particular views either way about JG, never having worked on the same squadron as him, the Samsonite ban strikes me of the typical chiselling triviality that has so 'endeared' certain senior officers to me over the decades.

[Grimweasel]

Well, I can understand why these cases should be banned for certain tasks. It should be left for the Capt of the a/c to decide. If it was a 30 Sqn route trip to pick up some engines from Cyprus then no big deal. Same for some other route task for exercise pax etc (Red Flag, Grand Prix etc)

If, however, the task involves a trip into operationally focused areas in full view of the green forces then certain limitations on baggage should be enforced so as to strengthen the 'military warfighter' ethos and image of RAF personnel. Rocking up at Bagram, Balad etc with a yellow or red suitcase does nothing for internal (MoD) relations and paints a picture of civvies in uniform. This 'image' portrayal can be quite damaging when it comes to defending your military right of passage and relevance in looming defence cuts.

I think JG is quite correct in his stance and whilst it may seem trivial to some, the rot in military organisations starts with lax discipline and letting troops get away with lots of small things that mount up to an air force staffed by personnel who go about thinking they are gods gift and untouchable. There has been a marked change in discipline and standards over the short 20 years I have been in the military.

Where the SWO was once feared he's now your 'mate' almost (Odiham). Where once a Cpl could tell an SAC to get his hair cut, these days he's likely to be ridiculed and told to bugger off by his SACs.
Where once people would stop when the ensign was being raised, people now just drive past in their own little bubble. I regularly have to stop people to remind them of the etiquette of saluting an officer and not to look away or 'pretend' they didn't notice. There are issues with today's society from which we recruit and these people have little respect for authority and some feel 'dis-respected' by the fact they have to show respect to their sovereign. The waist size of overweight fatties that consistently fail their fitness test but are kept on by weak management on account of them being a 'good tradesman' etc. The list could go on, but I'm sure you get the picture.

Command is a lonely position and not all decisions you make will be cordially accepted by all. I bet there are many, many more decisions that are made in our favour and hard battles fought that most will never get to learn about - such a shame that a true leader of men should be ridiculed for insignificant decision that has little, if any, impact on your day to day life other than to generate a thread on PPrune!!! Peace to all!

(PS Loved the 7/47 'I'm more Black Ops than you debate!!' Makes me laugh when all these dudes on 7 cut about with long 'blade' style haircuts as if they are badged themselves. At least the 47 guys knew they were truckies at heart; there is nothing a 'Blade' hates more than a Walter!):E:E:E

[muttywhitedog]

Any more news on the comment made at post #13 - the instigator has made half a dozen comments yet skilfully avoided elaborating.

Samsonite's, think he might be a bit too busy this week advertising for a new Chief Blunty to worry about how we carry our clothes round the bazaars http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[nigegilb]

Stopstart,

I can assure you this is not a personal vendetta. I have already made my views very clear on where the majority of the blame lies, I was merely pointing out the recklessness of the decision making by the leadership at the time. I have no idea if you were at the centre of what what happened, but if you would like to continue your accusation you should drop the mask of anonymity and explain very clearly your interest. My interest has only ever been in preventing a recurrence of a totally avoidable tragedy.

[StopStart]

I’m just calling things as I see them treacle, although I note that you amended your last post to remove the direct accusations. :hmm: I see no particular need to reveal my identity to you, partly because I’m still serving, partly because 90% of the people that matter know who I am anyway but mainly because I find your holier-than-thou attitude so tremendously amusing.

What exactly do you hope to achieve by your continued harping on about the involvement or otherwise of the Flt Cdr in a tragic incident 5 years ago? There have been funerals, inquests and aircraft modifications as a direct result of the loss of 179 yet still you go on. I don’t understand what it is you’re still looking for? I find it hard to believe you’re naïve enough to think that a single, solitary Sqn Ldr could be responsible (or not) for so much while Sqn Cdrs, Stn Cdrs, Group, the AWC, the IPT, Boscombe, the AOC and the NAAFI manager could bear no responsibility or have no influence? I know for a fact that Flt Cdrs have difficulty influencing where the desks in ops should go let alone influencing AWC thinking, aircraft mods and general RAF policy. Face it, the fast jet led RAF had (and still has) absolutely no interest in fixed wing support to SF – indeed it struggles to even be that interested in the great work 7 do. He could’ve screamed until he was blue in the face about foam, DAS etc etc but without the support of the hierarchy he would get nowhere; sadly it would always take something like the loss of 179 to convince the hierarchy to make things happen (indeed, I’m still waiting for our very own Desert One (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw) to prompt a proper AFSOC type set up in the RAF :rolleyes: but that’s another subject altogether). Through your comments on the Flt Cdr you also infer that all the captains and crews were just sheep, doing what they were told unquestioningly? My experience suggest those weren't or aren’t the sort of people 47 recruit.

The loss of 179 has been thrashed out on here ad infinitum. There is nothing more to be gained from constantly raking it over apart from upsetting the relatives yet further. The captain was a good mate of mine with whom I’d been through training and had served at Lyneham with so I'm not just some casual observer. Would ESF have saved 179? Who knows. No one, not even you Nige. It might have helped but then so might a myriad of other things. As it was, XV179 and its highly trained and experienced crew were lost to enemy action whilst conducting military tasking in an operational theatre against a resourceful and well equipped enemy force. A direct result of the loss means that I now fly one of the best protected TacAT aircraft in the world - that is the legacy of Steady and the rest of the Hilton crew. Those that campaigned (including you obviously) should be applauded for their tenacity but it’s time to move on.

You say My interest has only ever been in preventing a recurrence of a totally avoidable tragedy – well that’s very laudable and us modern day sheep are terribly grateful, however you’ve been an airline pilot for many years now and your earlier comments on the state of the Sqn nowadays reveal just how out of touch you are. Like I said in my last post, if you truly believe JG to be responsible for so much then pursue it elsewhere; constantly turning it over on here serves absolutely no purpose and certainly has nothing to do with your stated aim above.

PS. but if you would like to continue your accusation you should drop the mask of anonymity and explain very clearly your interest. This must rank as one of my favourite ever pompous internet postings! Is it a step away from a challenge to cyber-duel?? Get over yourself :rolleyes:

PPS. As an aside and for what it's worth, JG's just what the stn needed as a Stn Cdr and has had the balls to make the big decisions the place has been crying out for for years.

[Sand4Gold]

He could’ve screamed until he was blue in the face about foam, DAS etc etc but without the support of the hierarchy he would get nowhere

I agree, that's why we have STANEVAL to act as a conduit to the top, when it is appropriate to do so.

S4G

[nigegilb]

Well, there is a hell of a difference between shouting from the rooftops about the need for foam and leaving the request and requirement unopened in an in-tray. Not withstanding the difficulties of Flt Cdrs getting themselves heard, at the very minimum in terms of duty of care I would have expected the US exchange pilot to have been given a fair hearing and if merited, a written request for foam to have been entered into the system. As it was, his request remained unread and unconsidered. You don't need to tell me how difficult it was to get equipment I went with my own request direct to the Stn Cdr who told me nothing could be done.

The position of Flt Cdr on that section carried with it an extraordinary degree of autonomy, without the normal scrutiny associated with similar rank. I totally accept that in the main, the crews were content to fly day low level. However one pilot, in particular was unhappy and thought it too risky. Instead of looking carefully at his proposal to improve the safety of the Hercules by fitting foam, he was sacked.

I only received a written account of the Flt Cdr's evidence in recent days and I was staggered by the apparent lack of consideration for duty of care and refusal to consult more widely. I am in contact with some of the family members, and they too were amazed by the evidence. I should add, that only one person had his evidence challenged at the Inquest and I am not surprised. I am still of the opinion that Group were totally incompetent in dealing with the TAT reports and this is where the main failure occurred.

My recent posts contend with the fact that due to the power and autonomy of the position in question, an opportunity to do something pro-active ahead of the tragedy was spurned.

You might well be in a safe aircraft nowadays, (only five planned by MoD initially), but until lessons are properly learnt by the tragedy, it will happen again. I don't think the "can do" attitude taken to the extreme is healthy and I don't think the atmosphere that existed was conducive to challenging the culture/orthodoxy of day low level.

Hadden Cave has not had anywhere need the impact on the RAF that it should have done, in my opinion, the job is still not complete. Haddon-Cave was called in following the Nimrod crash which occurred AFTER XV179. The commander in situ, known to many at LYE ordered Nimrod crews back into their aircraft within a couple of days of the explosion. I don't doubt that "can-do" remains the over-riding impulse to get the job done, my concern is that nothing has really changed at senior levels.

You have at least explained more about your background, I hope you understand that I am not overly focussed on one individual. You said yourself that the crash had to happen for things to change. This is what Stn Cdr told me in the conversation that he couldn't recall at the Inquest. I will continue to strive for a system with less reliance on the cult of the individual and more on sober, independent checking and analysis. The CoC failed miserably regarding XV179.