Gnats

[PFR]

Anybody want to contribute to a thread about Gnats

How this to get us started:ok:
Gnat Display Team - Classic British Ex-Military Fast Jet Display Team based in the UK (http://www.gnatdisplayteam.com)

[BOAC]

Nice to see the jets - but about 20 ft too far apart:)

[PPRuNe Pop]

And DON'T, whatever you do, ask how he knows! :=

[hurn]

I'm sure I've read the team has acquired another Gnat to join the display recently. I think it's in the old Yellowjacks scheme.

They still haven't got ex Red One XR537 yet though. :}

[Wander00]

Seven more airframes and pilots and that's the costs of the Reds saved!

Getting my hat and coat, but as an ex Gnat student - TERRIFIC!

[BEagle]

Ah - the lovely G-nat! Looked like it was doing 500 mph when stationary.

The ghosts of STUPRECCC and CUBSTUNT... Memories of 'Speed, Trim and Unlock', 'Cam K', 'Fuse 13', 'scissor restrictors', 'datum shift', 'Q-gearing'........and the Hobson motor :eek:!!

Great to see the little jets airborne and doing what they were designed for! A classic British jet and very demanding to fly. The Hawk is a total wuss by comparison. The 'JP6' as one Gnat QFI termed it.

[Lightning Mate]

Great stuff - brings tears to me eyes.


Nice to see the jets - but about 20 ft too far apart

Blimey, they're in battle formation. :E

[chevvron]

Halton early '90s about 2 years before No 1 SoTT moved out.
Two Gnats were positioned on the engine running base (near where the old tower used to be, close to our portakabin (Ridgerunners Microlight Club). Towards the end of the day, one of the personnel with the Gnats came over and asked if we could taxy the Gnats back to the hangar - presumably they weren't cleared to ground taxy? Anyway two of the guys (both with microlight PPLs) volunteered in spite of the fact the fastest aircraft they'd flown had a cruising speed considerably less than a Gnats stalling speed, and they got both aircraft back without mishap!!

[Wander00]

Been learning to glide this year in France (49 years after my A&B with the ATC). Soloed a week or two back and now doing what I think is termed "solo consolidation", but not in the slightly stodgy two seater as usual but in the Pegase 101 (single seater, quite high performance). My first aerotow take off reminded me of the first trip in the Gnat - 5 minutes behind the aeroplane and oh so twitchy in pitch. The the little angel on my shoulder said "Fly it like the Gnat - think the control; movements" Simples. 45 years slid away and I had one of the most enjoyable flights of my life. It is almost good to be 66!

[gr0wler]

20 feet apart :-( easy to say when ur not flying the jet methinks.

[Krystal n chips]

The Gnat....hmmm ! on one hand, the original modular contruction...it just came apart very easily...slipper tanks off, saddle tanks off, tail off, pull donk out and take off the wings...an activity I participated in several times...nice seat as well...handle in the neck equalled "safe"....the downside...nothing larger than 11/32..cables requiring tensioning whilst in a position straight from the Kama Sutra...Lox charging point change without taking the tail off..."interesting dexterity" required...single piece blown canopy...prone to crazing and the equivalent of picking oakum trying to blend it out and measure the depth thereafter...the monkey puzzle befind the bulkhead in the rear cockpit.....and of course, the icing on the cake...the Hobson unit....:mad:

I managed 3 nice rides in the beast though and long before the fun police appeared......Daft question from one driver therefore.."Er, fancy a bit of fun?"...short ans....so he did..:ok::E

Chevvron, an interesting account and not doubting it..just curious as to how these guys coped with the Palouste start and settings for engine start before the little trundle from the now deceased tower to the hangars at Halton.

[chevvron]

The engines were already running, the ground crew guys just wanted someone to taxy them.

[Krystal n chips]

cheers for that.

[PFR]

and what about a snap:ok:
.....as Beags said it looks like going fast when stood still:}

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/968Man/G-FRCE.jpg

[BOAC]

The engines were already running, the ground crew guys just wanted someone to taxy them.- getting in would have been interesting!

gr0wler - how about 4ft?

[Agaricus bisporus]

Almost a slim, baby Hunter! Beautiful. I want one!

ps. someone, do tell...what's a Hobson unit?

[PEI_3721]

It’s a hydraulic thingamajig which helps the back wiggly bits control the aircraft. If the hydraulics fail then the drill is STUPRECCC resulting in manual control with electric trim. If the unit fails / runs-away to full travel, then Mr Folland provided an alternative landing / let-down system activated by a handle on the seat.
(PEI_3721 did manage to pass the Gnat tech exam, and completed several landings without use of the alternative letdown system).

[gr0wler]

A bit like getting a knight onto a horse in the olden days.....Chief with foot on shoulder pushing down whilst sorting harness...great once you're in though!:D

[gr0wler]

Way too much cleverness here....anyone who knows how to fix one of these and has got a bit of spare time...there is a yellow one that needs a major over the winter so that it can fly again next season?

[forget]

Good read - 'How Petter Made The Gnat Light'.

Gnat50Years Blog Archive How Petter Made The Gnat Light (http://gnat50years.in/design-development/how-petter-made-the-gnat-light.html)

[PEI_3721]

http://i51.tinypic.com/2ijt6jn.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/8wdp38.jpg

[rodthesod]

grOwler
20 feet apart :-( easy to say when ur not flying the jet methinks.
What the man said was 20 ft too far apart, and I agree. Perhaps they're trying to make a 2-ship formation look bigger (understandable), but they're definitely 20 ft further apart than when I flew them in formation - and that was as a trainee at Valley. Nevertheless it's great to see them flying and brought back happy memories.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Gr0wler, 4ft was just about the distance that BOAC flew them - when he was RED >> - I knew I would have to say it eventually! :ok:

[Dick Whittingham]

How many Hobson motor runaways were there? I did a BOI on a Kemble Gnat in about 1968 that locked up at full nose down, but it was the only one I ever heard of. Interesting technical fault.

Dick

[Wander00]

I bet we lost more aeroplanes and, sadly, pilots pracising for hydraulic failure that we ever had real hydraulic failures, a bit like the Canberra assymetric. Indeed, I recall (dimly these days) that after a number of fatal accidents in early 1966, some at least attributed to PFLs in manual, a Flying Order was issued to the effect that in the event of engine failure, solo students were to eject; instructors were to use their discretion and then eject.

[Krystal n chips]

The Hobson unit was a truly memorable ( for many reasons ) bit of kit. Those who flew the aircraft encountered one side and can thus comment accordingly.

From the engineering perspective, it was a nightmare to remove / install and subsequently rig. There were some serious problems as I recall with the leak rates and the measurement of these rates. The aileron PCU's were not much better either in terms of leaks although for their size and that of the aileron (and aileron response time) they operated, this comes as no real surprise with the work loads induced.

I could be wrong, only ever having worked on Lightnings in a Cat 3 condition, but didn't this also have a Hobson unit fitted, albeit a larger version.

[safetypee]

I watched the result of one at Valley whilst strapped into a shinny fighter during a Lightning MPC.
On seeing two parachutes, the first thought was what a silly place to practice parachuting – over an active airfield.
The Gnat with the tail fully nose-up and at full power, was then seen circling the airfield in a super-stall/wing rocking manoeuvre, and continued to do so for some time.
‘Scruph’ Oliver in his adjacent armed Lightning, declared that he had the warhead round, so let’s go and get it. The gnat crashed gracefully about 200m away on the sea shore behind MPC before we had any decision.
A somewhat disconcerting situation – where was the aircraft going to fall – which way do you run.

[PFR]

Ok you "techies" - what's the story of increasing the roll rate by some "twiddling" of the engineering:8 Hopefully without the pilot taking the fin off in the resultant effect:uhoh:

[Krystal n chips]

Frankly, I would leave the roll rate alone.

As I recall, the fin seperation is precisely what did happen.. sadly... and resulted in a fleet grounding for a while. One of the proposed solutions at the time was to use some of the spare rear fuse shells ( still in grey paint and straight from the manufacturer having been kept in storage at Kemble ) but this was discounted due to the extensive mod. state upgrade required.

What effect this grounding had on the operational flying of the aircraft thereafter, the pilots on here will be able to answer, but "twiddling" for twiddlings sake...... to ring a minimal increase in the roll rate would "not be a good idea"....cough !

I am just wondering if we have met PFR, quite recently in fact, in the Midlands perhaps....if you ever flew at Four C's at Syerston that is ?

[Lightning Mate]

My memory fades in places these days - apologies.

Didn't the Gnat have restrictors fitted to limit aileron travel? The roll rate was excellent even with them. I remember something about the little jet suffering roll/yaw coupling at high incidence.

Also I think the 'Arrers had the restrictors removed.

I am happy to be corrected, which BOAC might care to do. ;)

A great intro' to the Frightening F3 though - same OR946 instrument presentation, but that's another war story! Sorry, I have to go and find some more tissues.....:{

[BOAC]

I can do no better than point you to the closed thread http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/72761-gnat-roll-rate-fuse.html where northwing's post covers the Fuse 13 story well and there is more on the control system of that delightful little ship.

[PFR]

Thanks BOAC, thought there was something - I'll have a good read:ok:
...and Lightning Mate yes I was aware that the a/c had instrumentaion as a lead to "Frightning's", so go on tell all - that's what the threads all about:D

Sorry Krystal n chips not me Chief, never flew Four C's or at Syerston for that matter - not the flying type - more's the pity:hmm:

and anybody care to post that classic "snap" of the "Master" collecting daisy's in a Gnat:ok: Flying Lawyer you're pretty apt at photos of Mr Hanna - you got access to copy you could post:O

[diginagain]

There's some youtube footage here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljofhhdDGPo)

ljofhhdDGPo

[BOAC]

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/72761-gnat-roll-rate-fuse.html Post 187 for starters?

[Lightning Mate]

...and Lightning Mate yes I was aware that the a/c had instrumentaion as a lead to "Frightning's", so go on tell all - that's what the threads all about

Since I only enjoyed two tours on THE Jet, I will defer the war stories to BOAC.

So there I was, in full burner, going very very well and...................

.....at M1.6 and accelerating the Mach strip speed was going left and suddenly was all covered in mildew and 'orrible black stuff.

Hadn't seen the light of day for quite a while obviously! :uhoh:

[Lightning Mate]

C'mon Newt, where are you......?

[wub]

Caught this pristine example at Edinburgh last year

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/wub_01/IMG_2406-1.jpg

[PFR]

Thanks wub:ok: sure looks like the Ferrari of aeroplanes - especially in red:}

[Cornish Jack]

Safety Pee -
Yes, I watched that one as well!!:eek: We were getting some studes ready for wet winching when we heard the first seat go and came out to see the second one take to the air. Memory says that there was some sort of pitch restriction which necessitated the 'pneumatic exit'. Once both bods had left the aircraft stabilised itself and trolled around in circles before arriving relatively level in the surf at Trearddur Bay. Much good fortune since it alighted between two groups of swimmer/surfers!!

Was also present when the No 3(?) in a formation takeoff came back down on the runway sans wheels and sped along trailing fuel from split slipper tanks.This trail ignited and followed the aircraft until it came to rest on the peri track just behind a queue of traffic at the runway crossing.:eek: Single occupant legged it at speed and the 22 Whirlwind arrived overhead just as the rear seat spontaneously shot heavenwards! Excellent demonstration of Whirlwind manoeuvrabilty and control reaction times.:E:ok:

[Flying Lawyer]

anybody care to post that classic "snap" of the "Master" collecting daisies in a Gnat
Flying Lawyer .......... you got access to copy you could post

Happy to oblige. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/Ray_Red1_low.jpg


Here are a few others from Ray Hanna's years as Leader .....

1966

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/vintageaviation/1966team2.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/vintageaviation/1966team3.jpg


1967

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/vintageaviation/1967team10.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/vintageaviation/1967team9.jpg


1968

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/vintageaviation/1968team5.jpg



1969

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/vintageaviation/1969team2.jpg



.

[PFR]

Ah ha...Thanks Flying Lawyer - magnificent:ok:

[Lightning Mate]

I'll second that!

[Amos Keeto]

Ah sweet memories of the Red Arrows at Fairford and Kemble in the mid 60s when rules hadn't been invented and neither had H&S. Frequent practises ending up in hair-raising beat-ups BETWEEN the hangars at both locations. I was standing on Fairford's ATC tower balcony in August 1966 when the team came down and beat up the tower. I took a photo looking DOWN on the Gnat as it passed beneath me!!!:eek: Things were exciting in those days!

[Gainesy]

The first of Lawyer's pics was taken by my old mate Tom Hamill of Flight International.

He told me that he kept hold of the low ones to avoid bother...;)

[JRFD]

It actually came down on the beach at Rhosneigr at the end of Harrison drive! My wife was there sunbathing, she has a photo of it somewhere. I will try to find it and post it here. Her father is Dougie Mee - often called Mr Gnat after his time on the aircraft! Still going strong at 86.

[BEagle]

Great to hear that Dougie Mee is still going strong! A true gent in all senses (although the local water baliffs might have thought otherwise on occasion) - and supplier of wives to officers various as his daughters were married off over the years, I gather.

The normal SCT ride (for passengers) was a charge around at low level, followed by a few aeros. Whilst holding after finishing my Gnat course in 1975, Douggie took me on a superb sight-seeing tour of Wales - including seeing the remains of a Dakota prang of many years earlier.

Please say 'Hi' to Douggie; my last trip with him was a Wx check on 4 Nov 1975 in XP540.

[Amos Keeto]

[QUOTE]The first of Lawyer's pics was taken by my old mate Tom Hamill of Flight International.

He told me that he kept hold of the low ones to avoid bother...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif [UNQUOTE]

...in that case, what do you call this.....:eek:


http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/RedArrowsGnatloooowatKembleAPR67.jpg

[Cornish Jack]

JRFD -
Exactly - I woke up at 5 o'clock this morning and gave myself a mental kicking ...:ugh:
Of course it was Rhosneigr:ok:

[BOAC]

Wow - that Hanna guy is going to be in REAL trouble when the RAF see that - nice pic to remember him by.

The thing about the Geenat was that your little pink bottom was only a few inches above the little red bottom, so the pucker factor was a great altitude control (ok, ok, height:8)

[jumpseater]

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c351/refshots/CRW_4772-1.jpg

BOAC
The thing about the Geenat was that your little pink bottom was only a few inches above the little red bottom, so the pucker factor was a great altitude control (ok, ok, height

I used to see them at Hawker Siddelly open days at Hatfield when in short trousers, and looking at these pics of mine brought it back how small they actually were!

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c351/refshots/CRW_4916-1.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c351/refshots/CRW_4915-1.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c351/refshots/CRW_4863-1.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c351/refshots/CRW_4917-1.jpg

These shots taken at Colt, now that's gone too :ooh:

[norwich]

A couple of recent photos from my collection .... Keith.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/spirit%20of%20nw/DSC_0038.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/spirit%20of%20nw/DSC_0041.jpg

And one, slightly older, from Colin Louries collection.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/gnat01.jpg

[Dick Whittingham]

Slightly older!

It looks like a Midge. Midge style canopy. gun ports, dielectric nose cone for the radar ranging set. Can't see the ailerons, which would be the clincher. Have we got a definitive description?

Dick

[BOAC]

It's a Gnat - possibly the prototype s/seater (F1) or an IAF model.

EDIT: To add - I believe there was only 1 Midge (I saw it fly at Farnborough, I think) and I'm pretty sure it was destroyed in a crash somewhere.

[Old Photo.Fanatic]

I can confirm the "Midge" (Blue paint job) flew at Farnborough Airshow 1954, I was there as a young lad. I still have the Airshow programme to back this up.
It was early in its flight programme having first flown Aug. 11th 1954.
Later written off in a fatal crash ,flown by a Swiss pilot, in Sept. 1955.

OPF

[wub]

The sign in front of the aircraft reads "Folland Gnat" :)

[Gainesy]

in that case, what do you call this.....



Slightly out of focus Amos...:ok::)

[Amos Keeto]

The sign in front clearly says "Folland Gnat". This is not a Midge, but Gnat F.1 XK740 which is now in the Southampton Hall of Aviation.

[BEagle]

In August 1955, the Ministry of Supply placed a contract for 6 single seat Gnats. These were:

XK724 (Now at the RAF Museum, Cosford)
XK739 (Scrapped)
XK740 (Now at Solent Sky Museum, Southampton)
XK741 (Now at Midland Air Museum, Coventry)
XK767 (Fate not known)
XK768 (Now preserved in Delhi)

So yes, XK740 is indeed a Fo.141 Gnat and not the Fo.139 Midge (which was destroyed in a fatal prang in September 1955).

[ZH875]

From this website (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/Folland_Gnat.htm) XK767 Crashed into a field at Stapleford, Wiltshire, so presumably has been destroyed.

[norwich]

The photo, from Colin Lourie, which I posted above was taken at the Leuchars Battle of Britain Airshow 1961 ! I have studied the original and can find no form of identity .....

Keith.

[BOAC]

As further 'proof' (apart from the placard :}) I believe the Midge had no weapons.

[jimgriff]

There have been a number of reports of crew ejecting from Gnats when things got rough.
Can anyone give me the lowdown on the seat? I know that it was not a Martin Baket made seat and was based on a model designed by SAAB of Sweden and further developed by Folland.
I have a number of manuals for the seat and line drawings show it as a rocket seat (rocket assisted after the ejection gun pushes it out of the a/c).
However, I can find no info on the rocket "bits" of the seat. No pack or single unit attached to the seat.
So my questions are- Did the seat have a zero-zero capability?
Did crew eject through the canopy or was there an interface to arm the seat post canopy release?

I have also found out that there was a "balistically assisted" drogue 'chute on the crew parachute and that a cartridge was used to pyrotechnicaly eject the drogue into the slipstream in order to get a quicker parachute deployment.
It all seems a comlicated system- was it generally considered a reliable ejection system?
Anyone know anything about this?

[Kitbag]

I had always thought the Folland seat was considered to be simple and effective. I seem to recall it was rated at 90 kts/90 ft like many seats of the era, but there is at least one reference to it being 0/0.
Sadly the seat has been used on quite a few occasions, see here (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/Folland_Gnat.htm)
There are probably some ex CFS/4FTS armourers out there who could give a more knowledgeable answer as could the lucky beggars who are fortunate enough to operate the type now.

[Neptunus Rex]

One of my mates flew with Ray on a solo aeros practice. Said mate was DFGA Hunters at the time. In the bar afterwards, he said to Ray that he was well used to low level, but that day his ar*e felt like it was was on fire!.

Ray was a modest man (as anyone who has ever met him will tell you) and told said mate that he reckoned his reflexes were fast enough to 'rescue' the jet if it dropped a few feet. He then explained that he had been wrong!

¿Que? The Maestro wrong?

Ray then explained that during one practice, he had been pretty low, when the Gnat 'dropped.' He said that before he could react, the nose pitched up as the Gnat entered ground effect (30% of your wingspan AGL.) After that, he deliberately flew into ground effect, but did not trim against it, so that he was holding forward pressure on the elevators. Any subsequent 'drop' would be countered naturally by the aerodynamic reaction to ground effect, with, of course, Ray's incredible reactions to back it up.

[BEagle]

I always thought that ground effect was typically encountered at 0.8b where b is the wingspan and height is measured from the mean chord position.

Given the Gnat was a shoulder wing aircraft with a 24ft wingspan, 30% span would be about 7 ft - at mean chord, so about 4ft a.g.l.....:ooh:

[BOAC]

Never mind the theory - you could feel it.:ooh:

Jim - no rocket on the UK seat. Please also check PMs

[Cornish Jack]

jimgriff
Re. Gnat seats - pneumatic rings the loudest bell in my (now hazy) memory. We had to be fairly au fait with the various seats for S&R and I seem to recall that the Gnat was the simplest to make safe - just move the handle through 90 degrees. No rocket propulsion that I can remember and the one we watched self-activate at Valley (see my previous on 26th) presumably over-rode the safety and departed due to overpressuring from the heat of the fire.

[Double Zero]

I had the honour to work and fly with ( in other much more staid aircraft ) a Test Pilot who worked on the development and production of the Gnat & Midge, M.O.

He was also involved in the relief of Malta but I only know that from reputation, he never talks about it....

He's surprisingly tall, no idea how he ever fitted in a Gnat!

I always got the impression the 'lightweight' seat did a good job, the albums mentioned below covered the tests.

The prototype XM691's engine was used by Donald Campbell's'water speed record attempt in 'Bluebird' on Conniston Water, well I suppose it showed a desire to be airborne !

The Folland photographers at Chilbolton were excellent ( Charles Brown did some classic air-air shots too ) - at Dunsfold we had inherited a few albums when Hawkers took over Follands, of very well lit photo's of the Gnat / Midge development, which have gone to a good museum you will be familiar with.

I copied a few shots, please feel free to PM me, I just wish I had the photographer's name; and having known great chums from Chilbolton, passing the place nowadays is always a sad feeling, I must visit the 'Globe' pub someday ( though I was told groundcrew went to closer place ) and see if there's any memorabillia.

[Chris Royle]

Some interesting related web sites

Folland_Gnat (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/Folland_Gnat.htm)

Gnat50Years Design & Development (http://gnat50years.in/category/design-development)

[Neptunus Rex]

Frank Hoare was in the Reds led by Ray Hanna in 1967, then went on to lead the Reds himself in 1975 (ish.) Frank was at least 6'2" and seemed to have no problems slipping a Gnat on.

[Kieron Kirk]

DZ

"I had the honour to work and fly with ( in other much more staid aircraft ) a Test Pilot who worked on the development and production of the Gnat & Midge, M.O.

He's surprisingly tall, no idea how he ever fitted in a Gnat!"

G-ASMG no doubt.

I found it difficult to sit comfortably in a Gnat and he was somewhat taller than me !

Photo in RPB/Arthur Reed book on the Canberra, page 131. He plus nav flew Canberra P.R.3 VX181 on a record breaking flight from London to Darwin on 27/28th January 1957 in 22hr 21.8sec.

Ciarain.

[Get me some traffic]

Not really qualified to comment, but I thought that the limiting factor in flying the Gnat was thigh length, not overall height? When I was at Valley some tall peeps flew the Gnat and short peeps flew the Hunter. (I was a penguin, all flap and no fly) ATC 1970 - 72.

[Entaxei]

As a matter of curiosity - what was the armament and load capability of the Gnat, was there a single 20mm cannon, could it carry bombs or missiles, was it any good as a fighter - it certainly looked the part. ;)

[forget]

Was it any good as a fighter? Ask the Pakistan Air Force.

But whenever Gnats met Sabres, the latter always got shot down or ran away – throughout the war not one Gnat from my squadron was shot down but many Sabres were. In later years when our officers met Pakistani officers abroad, on courses or at air show events, they all admitted that they were terrified of the Gnat.

Gnat50Years Operations (http://gnat50years.in/category/operations)

[stepwilk]

Anyone know where the Gnats used in the film "Hot Shots!" came from?

One of the pilots for that film, incidentally, was Ray Hanna's son Mark.

[Kitbag]

The prototype XM691's engine was used by Donald Campbell's'water speed record attempt in 'Bluebird' on Conniston Water
Bluebird K7 was also fitted with a fin from a Gnat.

what was the armament and load capability of the Gnat, was there a single 20mm cannon, could it carry bombs or missiles

The F1 and Ajeet (an Indian designed derivation of the basic Gnat) had a pair of 30mm ADEN cannon buried in the outer lip of the intakes, the F1 was also capable of carrying 2 500lb bombs or 18 3" rockets on its 2 underwing pylons. The Ajeet had 4 pylons allowing carriage of up to 1985bs of external stores

[Dr Jekyll]

Anyone know where the Gnats used in the film "Hot Shots!" came from?

A variety of American private owners I believe.

Someone really ought to write a definitive book about aviation films explaining things like where the aircraft were sourced.

[Entaxei]

Thank you for the details of the Gnat armament - impressive!!

Cheers Entaxei :ok:

[PLovett]

Anyone know where the Gnats used in the film "Hot Shots!" came from?
A variety of American private owners I believe.

Someone really ought to write a definitive book about aviation films explaining things like where the aircraft were sourced.

I believe one was lost either in the making of the film or in transit to or from the location. IIRC the pilot was killed.

[Dr Jekyll]

I believe one was lost either in the making of the film or in transit to or from the location. IIRC the pilot was killed.

It could have been both. There was a report of the one lost in transit having some heath robinson modification to the fuel system which may have been contributory.

[treadigraph]

Pilots in Hot Shots were:

Chuck Thornton
Alan Preston
Skip Holm
Brent Barker
Charles Johnson
Paul Metz

Presumably Chuck Thornton flew his T-38 and I seem to recall a couple of F-5s as well?

I believe two Gnats were lost during the filming but I don't remember how.

Up at Cosford yesterday - nice to see the F1 and T1 preserved there.

[forget]

Hot Shots on UK TV Monday, 17th October. Film 4 at 7:10pm.

[Double Zero]

After a chat with Kieron Kirk, it transpired we were talking about a different though mutually known Gnat Test Pilot.

He meant 'Dick' Whittington - only knew him very briefly, never heard a bad word about him and the subject of awful personal tragedy;

I meant Mike Oliver, who I had the honour of flying with on various photo' sorties.

I was a technical photographer at Hawkers' Dunsfold, which had 'inherited' the Follands archives, in my opinion very well lit and taken.

I printed off a few examples, but my 'photobucket' set-up seems to be sulking.

If anyone cares to PM me with an e-mail address so that they may reproduce the Folland pic's here, they are welcome.

[bkm]

Re the Hot Shots Gnats, don't know if this is related...

Photos: Hawker Siddeley Gnat T1 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Hawker-Siddeley-Gnat/1795215/&sid=b27eab99fd95f034b232dcc454a82a23)

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Hi,

I Have read this thread with much interest. If there are any ex (or current) Gnat pilots there who would like to offer some advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

What would be the three or so points/tips/words of advice, you would give to someone on their Gnat conversion?

Many thanks

coolnames

[Lightning Mate]

I'll offer you one if I may.

Know the hydraulic failure drill.

[Double Zero]

I was at Dunsfold Photographic 1979-93, we had inherited the very well lit and shot Follands Archives, I managed to run a few prints off ( yes I know not all Gnats ! ) There are more in the attic inc' some beautifully clear B&W air-airs, will get them shortly;

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/Follands2-1.jpg?t=1295532389

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/Follands1-1.jpg?t=1295532495

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/Follandsrig.jpg?t=1295538561



I'll find the rest ASAP if there's any interest ? DZ

Here uou are then ! All Courtesy of Mike Oliver, Folland Test Pilot & Hawker/BAe Dunsfold Operations Controller - photo's by Russel Adams

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/M_Oliver3.jpg?t=1295534991

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/M_Oliver4.jpg?t=1295535196

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/M_Oliver5.jpg?t=1295535299

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/MOliver2.jpg?t=1295538699

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/MOliver1.jpg?t=1295538801

I must add that the copy quality does not do the originals justice...

[neilf92]

I'm interested - lets see some more Gnats.

[Double Zero]

Neilf92, I may have some more - clearer too - in the attic, if so will try to put them up later today / tomorrow. DZ

[PFR]

Yes please....more, more!!:D

[BEagle]

Know the hydraulic failure drill.Absolutely! It's 35 years since I last flew a Gnat and I can still recite the STUPRECC drill!

Also, you must have a very good knowledge and understanding of all aircraft systems. 'Cancel warning, read procedure' simply won't be sufficient if you have an Amber or Red caption illuminated.

But when all's fine, the Folland Pocket Rocket is a pure delight!

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm interested to hear any other tid-bits of operating info you might like to through my way.

As for the photos - love 'em, more please:D

Coolnames

[l.garey]

Maybe not as nice as the ones above, but here is a photo of an Indian Gnat (not Ajeet) displayed at the Pakistan Air Force Museum in Karachi. It strayed into Pakistan during the 1965 war and was later flown and tested by the PAF.

Laurence

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc39/apollo-fox/DSCF0063small.jpg

[India Four Two]

Laurence,

What nice timing - I've just seen three more of the same. I'm just leaving Delhi after my first ever trip to India. Unfortunately I didn't have time to go to the IAF museum, but on my way to the airport this morning, I saw these outside the IAF HQ:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/Delhi_Gnats03.jpg

As we approached, I thought they were three Migs, but as we got closer, I realized they were too small. This is not my photo, but with "500 m in smog", I couldn't have taken as good a picture!

Apparently No 1 is an Ajeet and 2 and 3 are Mk. 1 Gnats. The first time I've seen a single seater. More information here:
Gnats display at Vayu Bhawan (http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/delhi/newdelhi/44-vayubhawan.html)

Simon

[l.garey]

Thanks for that Simon. When I visted the Palam IAF museum in Delhi in 1981 there were Gnat IE1059 and also Ajeet E2004.

According to Indian Air Force Museum - Modern Era Aircraft (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Museum/Palam/Modern.html)
Ajeet E2015 arrived there later.

Laurence

[Tee Emm]

There is a former CFS Gnat (flyable I believe) and privately owned, in a glass fronted display room at Essendon Airport, Melbourne (Australia). You can see it from the Tullamarine Freeway about 80 metres away and I can't tell you how many times I have nearly driven up someone's rear bumper while rubber necking at the Red Gnat

[Krystal n chips]

If you are the owner of said Gnat, in addition to the advice offered by the aircrew on here, I would seriously suggest you ensure the engineers who maintain it for you are fully conversant with it's little quirks....such as setting the tailplane for example... .it's not an "easy" aircraft even with experience on the type.

[Proplinerman]

Here's a shot of the Red Arrows in the days when they were flying Gnats:

ScanImage9e | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/5377524038/)

[gunshy67]

What a classic thread. Full of memories of a wonderful time in my own career.

When asked, I would describe the Gnat as the closest thing to flying a broomstick. The 12 foot pitot tube seemed to be the vehicle you straddled as you did what the aircraft did best ............. manoeuvre and in all sorts of weather.

EX RAAF change for me and based at Rissington, Fairford then Kemble. Not part of the Team as such but with C flight. Those posted to the team we refreshed and did the formation aero bit and then passed to Ray Hanna.

Formation Aeros were done with 10 degrees of flap ....due pitch stability. Ray took over from Lee Jones (Yellow Jacks) and developed the routine in a highly skilful way.......yes a real pro.

Names like Ray, Roy Cope-Lewis, Bill Brewer, Alex Wickham, Dennis Hazel (Sadly Passed On) and others I can't recall. My brain has limits these days but I will check my log book if I can find it.

The aircraft - supersonic advanced turning was a test - but Offset Computer for Tacan, separate emergency radio (something of a novelty for me for an Uxbridge fix) ) and "zero reader (now known a Flight director) made it a total visual and IFR package with "grunt".

And as a snow removal vehicle it worked wonders for the instructors' course we ran. Six weeks behind was the course due snow at Fairford. Alex Wickham suggested the "antipodean" should do the job so after about an hour of flapless touch and goes (flapless to get the tail down) at Alex's suggestion, managed to clear a six foot line for about the first 2000 feet of each end of the runway .

Great incentive to keep on the centre line for the rest of the winter..........and if I recall it was like a tunnel....snow banks to assist.

Wonderful aircraft and wonderful people I was proud to know and work with.

Thanks so much for the memories.

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Could any of you ex (or current!) Gnat drivers tell me if the Gnat experienced any mach tuck?

Thanks

Coolnames

[BEagle]

Formation Aeros were done with 10 degrees of flap ....due pitch stability.

That's interesting. Most students found formation flying in the Gnat very difficult indeed due to its sensitivity. I once wondered why I seemed to be having less difficulty than usual, then found I'd left 1 notch of flap down....:hmm:

'Turning joins' - perhaps one of the most difficult parts of the course! The Hunter GT6 was an utter pussy cat after the Gnat.

[gunshy67]

No Mach Tuck. Speed sensing provided "speed stability" as the boffins called it and the tailplane was positioned and was powerful enough to overcome any of those aerodynamics effects. so you hade normal control over teh whoel speed range.

Straight wing aircraft without the speed stability function had Mach Tuck and if I can remember correctly one only got Mach Tuck on subsonic aircraft when the download on the tailplane...and other "stuff" changed.

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Gunshy,

Thanks for the info. Appreciate it.

[Wander00]

Formation in the Gnat - tres difficile, and not helped by having an instructor who, IIRC, was an ex 92 Sqn formation team member, who made it look so bl@@dy easy! Most memorable sortie - IRT with Bob Turner, followed by Bob practising at Mona for the Wright Jubilee competition - "not below 200' ". Never been so frightened in my life, but the memory still brings a very broad grin!

[RegDep]

Just for the record, of the 13 Gnats in the Finnish Air Force

4 were destroyed in accidents
6 are displayed in Finnish aviation museums
1 is stored in a Finnish aviation museum
1 is in private ownership
1 is on a pedestal outside Rovaniemi Airport / Air Base

Reg

[PFR]

More wonderful snaps and great memories, particularly gunshy67 - thanks. These service memories and history is fascinating, lead in for the "frightening" - yes? (is it fair to say the instrument layout was laid out with that in mind?) - any more from the archives Double Zero? Keep it coming:D

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Another question for those in the know: Does anyone have a copy or a reference regarding the pilot height/weight limits associated with the Folland ejection seat as used in the T.1?

Looking at flying this magic little jet and need to confirm that those of us flying it will 'fit'.:)

Many thanks

[BOAC]

I'm pretty sure thigh length (for ejection) was the limit but cannot recall the numbers. I don't think height or weight would be too limiting Some fairly large guys flew it.

Maybe an 'old time' AME can help?

[gunshy67]

Hi People,

I was and am 6'2" and at the time weight was about 87kgs.

And i just got in; strapped in and had all the joys the Gnat could offer.

I also recall the trap of half speed brake using the gear and the stab trim limit on battery.

Forced landings required 65% and speed brake. Checking a refresher pilot in the flare noted three reds. I learnt that check many years before to always do a "last look" check of gear. Saved the day.

Fortunately the threshold speed was too fast to land so I said in a cool calm voice " TAKING OVER"...NOT REALLY - I SCREAMED Somewhat.

Best Things

[Lightning Mate]

lead in for the "frightening" - yes? (is it fair to say the instrument layout was laid out with that in mind?)

The OR946 presentation.

The 'ol memory ain't what it was, but I don't think the G-nat was so fitted as a Frightning lead-in, but I stand to be corrected.

BOAC???

[gunshy67]

Yes the Gnat was originally designed as a lead in for fighter ops and the instrumentation was homogeneous with the Lightning. As far as was possible.

It even had the drag chute.....That was a "wow".

[27mm]

IIRC, later Javelins and the Bucc also had OR946 displays.

[NutherA2]

IIRC, later Javelins and the Bucc also had OR946 displays.
All the Javelins I flew, including the Marks 8, 9 & 9R had "conventional" instrument panels, but I'm pretty sure you're right about the Buccaneer.

[Lightning Mate]

The Lightning F1, F1A, F2, and F2A didn't have the OR946 installation. The first to get it was the F3, followed by the F6.

Can anyone remember when the Gnat first entered RAF service?

[neilf92]

Didn't the Lightning F2A have a partial OR 946 installation ?
Memory does not serve me well 40 years down the line !

[Double Zero]

For those looking for more photo's from the Follands archives, I'm afraid the short term answer looks bleak; however I hope to get more, and some insight into flying the Gnat, soon.

I must say from a distinctly academic point of view I'd love to know more, for instance the seat - the archives showed several firings of a fully kitted out dummy, then what looked like a real human test, ending with a group outside a pub, which seems very understandable !

[Audax]

I did AFT on the Gnat despite being in excess on 6ft 2in, can't recall being measured for cockpit fit. Years later, when H&S reared it's ugly head, I was told by AMTC that my measurements were such that I couldn't bang out of the aircraft safely.

Ref the double ejection in post 27, I saw it happen. I was walking in with my QFI and we watched the whole episode; we were lucky, the aircraft involved had been the next one allocted by the line after ours so we missed it by one.

If my memory serves me correctly, the tale was as follows. The front seater got out OK, the rear seat pulled his legs back (the story was he was worried about losing his kneecaps on the instrument panel) which inevitably broke his thighs. On landing, helpful holiday makers grabbed him by the ankles to stop him being dragged by the chute, this released bone marrow which had some sort of nasty effect on his nervous system. Happily, he recovered.

As for formation in the Gnat, I thought it was just me!

[Agaricus bisporus]

OR946? Que?

[Lightning Mate]

Operational Requirement Number 946.

[BEagle]

The Gnat T1 had the OR946-style Attitude Indicator and Compass, but not the strip ASI/Machmeter.

Offset TACAN - what a superb system and it was a huge pity that the JP6 (sometimes called the Hawk) didn't have it.

[PFR]

allthecoolnamesarego
Don't know if this is of help but have you got sight of the books Folland Gnat Sabre Slayer and Red Arrow (by Victor Bingham) & Spirit of Hamble Folland Aircraft (by Derek James). Would suggest their excellent reference sources for all things Gnat.
All the Best, PFR. :)

[allthecoolnamesarego]

BEagle
the JP6 (sometimes called the Hawk) didn't have it.

LOL!:D

PFR,
Thanks for the references, I haven't got them, but I think my colleague has the Sabre Slayer one. I intend on getting my own copy of that and will now search for the second book.
Thanks again!

coolnames

[Paul_J]

"Can anyone remember when the Gnat first entered RAF service?"

Great thread, Gentlemen: thank you; memories have come flooding back. I was a Radar Tech posted to the Gnat Flight at Rissington in - probably - February,1962, and there were two, maybe three there at that time. The "ultra-modern" crew room - out on the pan was also under construction. The Gnats were painted with the early dayglo nose, tips and tail - and in fact the first ones may have even had the yellow band scheme. Too long ago I'm afraid. I remember a number of flights with the outstanding Bill Loverseed, night flying at Thorney Island, Gaydon and Valley - where I think an electrical failure put the co's aircraft into the water during an aborted go-around. Also instructing was a Flt. Lt. Yardley, but alas, no other names come to mind. Formation aerobatics, along with a regular 'first-off' beat-up became the norm through '63 - and in fact, as the newer, full cover dayglo scheme became applied we regarded ourselves as "The Red Arrows" and our 'competition' was the Red Pelican team - the JP5's also at Rissy, and not Ray H. and the YellowJacks. I was not fortunate enough to remain, being posted overseas in '64, but I certainly enjoyed the experience!

[NutherA2]

gunshy67

Check your PMs?

[Double Zero]

For anyone looking for more Gnat photo's, I have been in contact with Follands Test Pilot Mike Oliver, who says he has a lot and will produce them shortly.

On the subject of seat trials, Mike confirms there was a real live human test, fired from a modified Meteor 7; the pilot was Dick Whittington, but the name of the subject is lost for now.

Mike was flying alongside with a photographer in another Meteor 7.

[PFR]

Paul_J, being a bit of a book-worm if you're looking for memories of "rizzy" get yourself a copy of: RAF Little Rissington, The Central Flying School Years 1946 - 1976 (ISBN 1 84415 381 9).

and

Double Zero,
Wait with eager anticipation for Mike Oliver's photo's. When you're in touch next congratulate him on developing such an inspirational little jet, love-um:ok:

Cheers, PFR:)

[Paul_J]

I'll do just that, PFR - thank you. It's on Amazon.ca at around $30 Can.

pj

[Double Zero]

Here is the latest offering from Mike Oliver; he's very busy but let's hope he has time to supply more pictures, I have also mentioned more than once a book or at least a description of testing & developing the Gnat / Midge by him here on Pprune would be welcomed !.

A shot of the Midge supplied by Mike, as he says it had a Viper with about a third of the thrust of an Orpheus, with consequently smaller intakes & tailipipe.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/MidgeMikeOliver.jpg?t=1296154793

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Paul J,

It is coincidence that you mentioned the Red Arrows and the Red Pelicans in the same paragraph. The Melbourne based company, Xjet, operates JP5 XW295 (former Red Pelican Leader's aircraft) and is restoring to flight Gnat XS101 (former Red Arrows leader's aircraft).

Perhaps you dealt with both of them?

[Paul_J]

It is coincidence that you mentioned the Red Arrows and the Red Pelicans in the same paragraph.
Perhaps you dealt with both of them?I shall wash my mouth with carbolic soap! No - the Gnat Flight was a separate entity, atcnag, with it's own pan and crew room. We 'dealt' with the continuous noise, as there were probably forty or more JP's on their adjacent pan during any one day, and by comparison the Gnat is a quiet aircraft. We did have a Vampire, though....... :oh:

No, 'fraid those numbers are too new, or at least - don't ring any bells.. I seem to remember the first series being XP 500 through 505 in '62, followed by three or four XM 705 through 709, perhaps in '63. I think one of the 500 series was absent, but not sure.

[redsetter]

Double zero,

The Meteor 7 ejection seat testee was Major TW (Dumbo) Willans. The test was described in Flight,6 Jan 56, page 11.

(I can recommend his autobiography, "Panic takes time" as an entertaining read).

[Phileas Fogg]

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/22744303.jpg

[hurn]

XR537 (G-NATY) based here in B/mth was back in the air yesterday for the first time in a couple of years. :ok:

Lovely to see it flying around again and still wearing it's old Red Arrows scheme.

[Wander00]

If I had still been living on the South Coast I would have seen it, and suffered a wave of nostalgia - really enjoyed flying the Gnat for the first half of 1966.

[JeanB]

I have been told that my brother Frank Hegarty (RAF) was involved in the cockpit design of the Gnat. Can anyone confirm this for me please

JeanB

[Wander00]

Just read through this thread again - result - goosebumps!