Puma Incedent Stanford Training Area

[the_boy_syrup]

Evening gents,
A quick question if anyone can help?

Does anyone remember an incedent involving a Puma about 1988 - 89 on Stanford Training Area?
I was there with some officer cadets on a night ex and a "No Duff" call came over the net

A T.A. Major had fell out off a Puma whilst it was about 200 feet up
Apparently it had came into the hover and the loady opened the door to look out as they do
The Major thought the aircraft had landed (it was pitch black outside) stood up passed the loady and jumped out
He was killed
I was talking to someone on another site who was on an OP and they thought someone had dropped a bergan from the Puma
IIRC no blame was attched to the crew of the Puma

Does anyone have anymore details and the name of the Major as someone from I know is doing some research on the incedent

[ShyTorque]

I wasn't involved but I do recall the accident, mainly because I might, in very slightly different circumstances, have been the pilot but I won't elaborate why.

On Pumas, both doors were/ are opened on short finals so the crewman can give his talkdown. The Major was possibly snoozing in the aircraft and had then been awakened by the cold air coming in after the first door was opened. The crewman moved across to the second door and subsequently heard a shout. As he turned, there was an empty seat..... Tragic.

[Roadster280]

I was on MAOTs slightly after that, and that particular event was still being talked about. The descriptions given concur with my understanding. Sorry, don't know the unit involved, nor the deceased's name, but the story rings true.

[jayteeto]

The pilot otherwise known as the grim reaper of helicopters and chipmunks was the captain as I recall. This was a tragic incident, so dragging up blame and old wounds could cause offence. Please be gentle. Talking to the crewman involved a few years later, he said that the passenger was 'itching to go' during the flight, I believe he stopped the rest of the stick following???

[Pete Treedish]

Sorry for the thread slippage, but similar incident without the tragic ending:

In a previous incarnation as a Navy Sea King Pilot, I remember a training incident whilst working with some SBS (Special forces). They were practising rapid rope deployment from our helicopter to the top of an artificial ski slope (simulating the bridge wing of a ship). We came in at speed then did a fast stop, the crewman would deploy the rope and the grunts would eagerly grab said rope and abseil / slide down the 40' to the ground. Fly away and pick up the next stick, simple.

On a subsequent approach just as the crewman was kicking the tail end of the rope out of the door, we had a tip strike on a floodlight pole, changing the game plan suddenly to getting away from the ski slope and getting the helicopter safely back on the ground. Despite the vibration, or maybe because of it, The grunts were so geared up to jump out of the door, the crewman nearly got taken with them as he stood in the doorway trying to stop them! Was everyone in the back safely strapped in for that landing? I think not, but nothing broken or even bruised except the pilots ego.

Easy done and the crewman in the back has a very difficult job looking out for everyone on board as well as looking out. With two doors ... Impossible.

[c130jbloke]

I was on 230 Sqn at the time and it was one of our Cabs involved in the accident.

IIRC, the crewman opened the Stbd door at 200' on the approach to the "T" iaw night SOPs then went to do the port door. On turning back to get into the stbd door again, he had the chilling sight of an empty seat where previously said Maj had been sitting. At this point, another grunt was getting ready to go out the door but was grabbed and dumped back into his seat. Thankfully, the ac had a nitesun fitted as it was the only way they found him, but he was declared DOA at the hospital.

Que, police investigation with them being informed that manslaughter charges were on the cards if they were found to have been neglegent :(

Again, IIRC the BOI found that a difference between Army / RAF SOPs regarding when the troops deplane and actions post door opening ( the Army opened theirs on the ground + and on RAF SH you needed an executive command from the CM to egress - 2 different methods at the time) was a major factor in what was an operating hazards accident. Also the victim had indeed, been " itching" to get out and lead from the front. The crew were rightly not held to account as all 3 ( there were 2 pilots on this particular exercise) were flying again shortly after and were found to been totally correct in their actions. I do not recall much else and the above is based on 20 yo feedback - so do not attach any accuracy to it, sorry.

[charliegolf]

Not directly related to this event, but the brief to troops was always explicit about when to unhook. We always talked about the doors opening well above the ground AND the likelihood of overshooting if the crew didn't like the outlook. Obviously I wasn't at everyone else's brief, but trooping sorties were often the baby crews' first off the leash events, and we stuck to the plot.

Very sad, first I heard of it.

CG

[Karl Bamforth]

C130,

Are you sure it was a 230 cab ? My memory is that it was operating with 33 Sqdn. As cabs moved between the 2 sqdns occasionaly that may be where the confusion is.

Would 230 have been operating in Stamford in 89 ?

[ShyTorque]

This was a tragic incident, so dragging up blame and old wounds could cause offence.

Jayteeto,

Agreed but your first comment might well be seen as highly offensive to the pilot.... :=

[c130jbloke]

Correct to the last post - there was and is no blame and had it not been for the quick reactions of the CM it would have been 2 killed.

It was a 230 Sqn Crew and cab.

[jayteeto]

Thats what he called himself, plus it was his role as a grim reaper to aircraft!!
Point taken though:oh:

[ShyTorque]

JT2,

Yes, I do know said pilot, having served alongside him for about 3 years just prior to the accident and on another tour previous to that, too. ;)

[lsh]

I always considered that the Puma having two doors was a double-edged sword.
It was far more difficult to control entry/exit than on a Wessex and very easy to be in the "wrong" door.
The load/unload for 12 troops did not seem to be that much quicker and there was double the chance of someone heading towards the tail rotor!
Once you took into account the fixed undercarriage, tailwheel and engine response I felt the Wessex had significant operational advantages in NI, for trooping. (Sorry chaps!)
Also the Puma doors needed careful inspection and use, if they fell-off.....
lsh
:E
(PS there was at least one stick-leader in NI who thought that the Wessex DID have a LH door, there was an anxious face at the bubble window, looking for the door handle!!!)

[jayteeto]

That didn't take long! Turning into a 72 v 230 thread......
Next it will be 3200 and I don't need a scarf......

[Diablo Rouge]

Does anyone have anymore details and the name of the Major as someone from I know is doing some research on the incedent

The Thetford coroner is sure to have the details. What good will come of 'research' into this case? It happened, it was an accident, it was avoidable, and lessons have been learned. Worst of all, the Crewman was treated very badly by CivPol in the hours that followed and received little support from his Command chain. In short he was treated badly and more importantly, unfairly.

The door was probably opened at approx 300' agl which coincided with the standard landing procedures at that time. There is/was much speculation as to cause, and fatique/sleep/sudden arousal of the individual concerned is widely accepted as a likely cause. In any event, had he remained secure until cleared out (post landing) in accordance with taught procedures, the accident would not have happened. The events were unexpected and could not have been prevented by the Crewman. Human nature is that individuals concern themselves with what (they) could have been differant to prevent loss of life, but this particular crew can sleep soundly at night in the knowledge that they did nothing wrong. That is not to say that they do....

[c130jbloke]

The CM in question was harshly treated by the Police which made for one of the unpleasant aspects of the event. All the more so as it was not his fault. I recall him saying that the rozzer ic the investigation was definatly of the " gulity until proved more gulity " ilk. Apparently he thought that taking down a Puma crew was his fast track to great things, except that he could not get his head around RAF Puma SOPs and that, err the crew had followed them to the letter.

Is it just me, or does the previous post make no sense whatsoever ?

[the_boy_syrup]

Sorry just to clarify

I'm not after anyone pointing fingers or blame being attached to anyone either
I'm not out to upset famillies or those there at the time
It came about from one of those "I was there but thats all I know conversations"
I knew about the guy falling out and he was actually on the ground when he fell near their Op
He asked if I knew the name as he was going to the National Arboretum so I assume he was going to pay his respects whilst he was there
He looked on the internet and I asked some of my mates who were with me when it happened but we couldn't get the name
I thought I would pop on here and ask as I sometimes pop over to read some of he threads
So I thought why not ask what actually happened on one of the threads

However I am sorry if any offence is caused
It wasn't my aim to do that

[gijoe]

I wasn't there as one of those in the back and know nothing about the incident that sparked this thread but it was a very well reported incident at the time and one of those 'this has just happened' stories reiterated during training.

I saw someone nearly do the same thing from a French Puma at 200' above the deck when the French CM opened the doors and the Patrol Commander was keener than ever to get out - exercise in France, tired, bored of the noise...and keen to get on with the job.

The French CM grabbed our man just as he lunged for the door...:sad:

:ok:

[lsh]

That didn't take long! Turning into a 72 v 230 thread......
Next it will be 3200 and I don't need a scarf.....

Probably my fault for exceeding my brief!
I suggest that the accident would have been far less likely to have happened on a helicopter with a single cabin door and the crewman "guarding" it.
lsh
:E

[charliegolf]

Worst of all, the Crewman was treated very badly by CivPol in the hours that followed and received little support from his Command chain.

Surely, that would never happen!

CG

[Airborne Aircrew]

As an ex-crewman I'd say that every crewman has at some time or another and to some level of "severity" opened the door and had to restrain some overzealous squaddie, I know I have. Nothing close to this level of tragedy but one of those "Good job I saw him or...." moments.

[camelspyyder]

t_b_s

my brother in law was sat next to the Major on the sortie, I will get in touch with him and see if he remembers who he was.

CS

[Redcoatgreenjacket]

Thanks Boysyrup, never thought of htis route, sorry you got grief.

S.

[Redcoatgreenjacket]

Gents, please be gentle with boy syrup, he was trying to find the name of the Major who so tragically died. I just want to make sure that his contribution to service, is recognised on the Arboretum as i wish to visit sometime. Sorry i did not realise the effect it could have on those involved.

Redcoatgreenjacket.

[Henry09]

Just to clarify some points

It was definitely a 230 aircraft

It was as black as a witches doo dah that night.

The 3rd Staffordshires, a TA regiment were on the second day of an already grueling excercise. They had already completed a 25Km route march earlier that day and were going out in patrols to cover a similar distance that night.

The Major concerned was newly promoted and as Company Commander was keen to show his boss and the regular army command observing the exercise what he could do.

All troops were given stage one drills before the first of the heli lifts in the afternoon. All troops practiced two run through drills on and off the aircraft, were briefed with doors closed and 'silence' by the crewmen on all emergency procedures and procedures specific to the puma. Every person in the Regiment was given drills, with the exception of one person who was 'too busy, but I have been on the Puma before', you guessed it, the new Company Commander, The Major.

Diablo Rouge

The doors were not opened at about 300 ft. Where did you get that one from ? 300 ft was not the standard landing procedure at the time. The doors were opened at exactly 200ft iaw the sop call on finals, '200ft less than 60kts - clear doors'........'roger clear doors Captain!' was the reply.

For the OP the aircraft was in the standard descent not the hover.

As soon as the guy stepped out after the initial commotion the aircraft continued in the descent to the T and a WO on board, who put his arm out to stop the next squaddie going after the Major, was briefed to do a line search with the troops back along the approach path. Meanwhils the aircraft was brought to the hover with only the three crew on board, and the handling pilot flew backwards up the approach path to exactly 200ft, and established the hover with the five lights of the NATO T in as near as possible the same position he could recall when the Crewman first screamed the soldier had gone. the nightsun was illuminated at that point and the crew found the Major on the ground within 3 minutes. The aircraft landed alongside him. The handling pilot in the right hand seat gave control to the Captain in the left and climbed out the aircraft to assist the Crewman. the major was loaded on to the floor of the Puma and the full radio pack he was carrying taken off him, and internal lights switched on whilst the handling pilot and crewman tried to give resuscitation to the Major, whom could not be declared dead, after a few minutes , responsibility was given to the crewman to continue the resuscitation and the handling pilot jumped back in the RHS and flew the short distance to the barracks, where another crew had already started another Puma to transport the Major to Ely hospital, as the Puma involved did not have sufficient fuel.

The aircraft was shut down, locked and declared impounded by the crew. The army however, quite surprised that it was a Major involved, wanted the aircraft unlocked so they could have the radio back that belonged to them. The crew were forced to oblige and the radio returned from the floor in the back of the aircraft.

The crewman, who was an excellent operator, and handling pilot were given a fairly rough time the following day by civpol. The handling pilot was told without any form of legal representation or top cover, that if it was found that the Major was thrown out of the aircraft because of any form of gross handling error then he would be going down for a long time for manslaughter. The Captain, tried to step in and take all the heat off the crewman and handling pilot, but despite telling the police it was his responsibility as he was the captain, the police said to him, 'did you have any part in flying the aircraft', he replied 'no' and they said 'well we are not interested in interviewing you!!'

The coroners inquest was lengthy and thorough and the crew were found to have complied with procedures exactly, and that those procedures did not need changing.

The one Moral of the story...if anyone ever tells you they are too busy or too important to have a safety brief, then tell them they can call a taxi, because they wont be getting on your aircraft.

I have his name, it is in my log book, but that is in a box in the garage.

Well I guess that is my moniker outed then, as I was the handling pilot!

Jayteeto, no offence taken mate, that was the name on my badge!


ps, sorry for the fact that neither the quote function, or quote marks or speech marks are working for me it seems.

Edited because i have got the speech mark key working again! '''''

[jayteeto]

Thanks, hope you are keeping well and still making a good living. Everyone around at the time knew that it wasn't your fault. Singapore?? You an expat now?

[antisthenes]

Hey old chap, I just saw your LinkedIn page, did you do a stint on Dragon's Den then! Hope you are well, any plans to make the reunion soon.

Hello to JT while I'm at it.

[The Old Fat One]

The one Moral of the story...if anyone ever tells you they are too busy or too important to have a safety brief, then tell them they can call a taxi, because they wont be getting on your aircraft.

There is another moral...

The behaviour of the police was totally normal. I have witnessed exactly the same in various incidents and I guess that is just the way they do things. I am not judging or moralising, but my advice to anyone caught up in similar circumstances is keep your gob shut (irrespective of the type of caution) until your brief arrives.

[Airborne Aircrew]

The behaviour of the police was totally normal. I have witnessed exactly the same in various incidents and I guess that is just the way they do things. I am not judging or moralising, but my advice to anyone caught up in similar circumstances is keep your gob shut (irrespective of the type of caution) until your brief arrives.

Sad that... :(

[Henry09]

Jayteeto

Not one of the three of us ever felt any of our colleagues thought anything like that. Support from the top was missed a little, support from our mates was incredible.

Yep, 100% out of it mate!! :)

antisthenes

I am pretty sure I will be there this year (is it the 19th?). It will be a long weekend because on the 20th is Michelle\\\'s memorial dinner, I think after Fri I will be taking the train up for that ;). New liver booked at the Chelsea and Westminster already!

No stint on TV, but just walking with Dragons ;)

The old fat one

never a wiser word said. Stay quiet, say nothing and don\\\'t be intimidated. 99% of people incriminate themselves, just use your right to say nothing! Wish I knew all this wise stuff 20 odd years ago!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

JT,

You going this year? If so hope to see you there :ok:

[jayteeto]

I do plan to break my duck and attend, but either myself or Neil A will have to be on shift. I think it is his days off, so it looks like next year....

[It's only Me]

Long long time ago, but Henry09 is pretty accurate in what he says. Have not flown a Helo in 18 years, but in those days was the Training Officer on 230 and was in the LHS that night.

Not a pleasant experience and a shock to all. It took us few minutes to find him, even with the Nightsun at 20ft. When we did, his rifle (a SLR in those days) was bent. Unfortunately, it was possibly the nav light shining off the (not normally fitted) nightsun that may have given the impression that we were on the ground. Indeed, there were nearly more; some Officer Cadets could not find the seatbelts, so they linked arms! One was half way out when they were pulled back.

I will never forget the CM saying "ones gone" at 175ft, just like the "8 dropped", "7 chutes" ref a PGI in California later in my time as a C130 Flt Cdr. Days to forget, yet can't.

Overall, an interesting det from RAFG; got stuck at Wattisham on the way and were suitably entertained by the fellow Tigers there. Later took a bird through the lower windscreen and when that was being fixed, a set of stepladders through the upper one via the downdraught of an OCU Puma!

Anyway, want to know the truth? PM me.

Me

[Henry09]

Mate , how are you? Been trying to get in touch by other means. Have you also had a name change?

Anyway what do you mean, 'want to know the truth' pm me? ;)

Isnt it the truth? or is altzheimers setting in.

Why don't you go to the Puma Reunion this year! You would enjoy it, plenty of old knackers to have a beer with, it's a great do. Bye the way 50th anniversary of the Tigers next year. Much partying organised and even older knackers will be in attendance!

you know who

Check pm's

So now we are just missing Bratty on here and then we have the full crew. Where are you Bratty?

[It's only Me]

Henry

PM back.

The truth comment is not aimed at you, but for others to contact me if they want. Normally, I would not be a good candidate for Poirot or Taggart as I can hardly remember my own name, but this I do.

Would love to meet up at the reunion, but, where and when please?

Me