"No - really - I wasn't chopped - honestly!"

[teeteringhead]

There's been an interesting bit of thread drift on the Reservist tanker pilot thread about people who "weren't chopped" but left flying training before completion for all sorts of other reasons.:rolleyes:

Worthy of its own thread I thought. I'll start the ball rolling with two I heard, both at weddings recently of friends of the Teeterettes - and of course they didn't know my background.....:E Both had "left" from Valley.

1. "I really enjoyed the Hawk, but decided halfway through the course that I'd much rather be a Dental Nurse!" (this was a male)

2. "I passed the Hawk Course, but there were no OCU places left, so they reluctantly had to "let me go"."

[charliegolf]

This is going to be good- you norty boy!

CG

[BEagle]

Some of us do at least admit to failure.

3 of the biggest lies are:

1. The cheque is in the post.
2. Of course I'll love you in the morning (there is a ruder version..).
3. I always wanted to be a navigator.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Teeter - The first... classic! The second at the moment, not so far from reality so I hear from the yoof! An awful lot of guys with not many spaces to go to...

[SOSL]

Bit of a thread drift here. One of my buddies on the engineering degree course at Cranwell was chopped from engineering and went for pilot training instead. He became quite an eminent QHI.

[Squirrel 41]

Or the "IntO" who "was taking a break from flying", because he was "too aggressive at low level"... in a Tutor.... :hmm:

S41

[Al R]

People might think I'm waffling, but after passing the training, I decided that I really did want to be an LAC Gunner.

Promise. :cool:

[luffers79]

On my return from Harvard FTS at Bulawayo, Southern Rhodesia in 1953. I visited, by arrangement, his home to see how he was after having to transfer to the army to complete his 2 years National Service requirement.
He was a few minutes late getting home from work, so I spent a few minutes talking to his mother while I waited. He had been let go for generally not being up to the required standard.
However his mother said, "Of course, it was his own fault - flying under all those bridges" !! (Err - Yes, of course ......). :rolleyes:

[SRENNAPS]

Sort of inline with SOSL’s comment:

I knew a chap that was chopped from being an airframes/engines apprentice and then got kicked off the engine Direct Entry Fitters (DE) course to go onto a Mechs course. Several years later I met him when we travelling down to Deci. He was the Navigator on the Herc. Good lad.:D:D

[jayteeto]

I didn't get chopped from BFT..... really!! They were doing an experiment by sending people rotary from the Basic Handling Test to save money. They did it with some students direct from EFT. Some made it to senior officer level and were very good pilots.
However, the truth......... It was the best thing that ever happened to me, because I knew that it was only a matter of time before I was going to get chopped. There never ever ever has been a fast jet pilot hiding inside me :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Most of us were recoursed off our basic nav course after 4 weeks. Not because we were no good but because the students ahead of us were too good and too many passed and could not go on to the advanced nav course.

Believe it or not, that was true.

Equally I am probably still alive because of it. About 2-3 were not recoursed and the one who went straight through a month ahead of me was on the Vulcan that crashed at Coningsby.

[oldbeefer]

There never ever ever has been a fast jet pilot hiding inside me :ok:


And the rotary one was well hidden!:E

[Saintsman]

To be fair, who would really say that they got chopped because they were useless?

[xenolith]

If that ain't a fast jet pilot inside you, what have you got around your waist?

[deltahotel]

I got chopped from a Buccaneer squadron, because no matter how much I loved it (lots) I really wasn't very good at it!!

[BEagle]

To be fair, who would really say that they got chopped because they were useless?

It would be exceptionally rare for any pilot trainee to be 'useless'. Often the reason for being removed from training is due to something else - such as limited spare mental capacity, reaching a plateau of ability, being unable to progress at the required rate. But rare indeed to be considered 'useless'. Slow learners? A chum was nearly chopped after failing the 'conversion handling check' on the JP5, but later became a top test pilot!

At the end of the old (and excellent) common-core JP course, pilots would be streamed according to their aptitude. Also, FJ streamed pilots who couldn't cope with the Gnat or TWU might find themselves re-streamed to multis - but back in about 1975-6, ME training actually stopped altogether at one stage, so there was nowhere for them to go if they were removed from training at Valley.

In fact you had to have reached the FJ OCU stage to have any chance of being re-streamed in 1976-ish. Some who subsequently went to the Vulcan did an 'asymmetric' course on the Canberra T4 which was about 3 hours of which about 20 min were on 2 engines, I gather! Great fun, or so they said.

You can indeed be 'wrong place, wrong time' if suspended from BJFT, due to the varying ME/RW requirements of the service. One chap I knew never failed a course, but was told that there were no slots available. So he became an Air Trafficker, but successfully fought his corner a few years later and became (I think) a Nimrod pilot.

Self-suspensions are equally rare. One chap I knew scared himself by seeing his cine-gun film of an A/A session against the flag behind Puddy's Meatbox - and the Meteor was in the frame whilst he was still firing. He admitted that he hadn't realised this - so asked to be re-streamed before he killed someone. Another chap simply "wasn't happy" even when tootling along on a perfect summer day at 250ft and 420 kts even if 100% sure of his position - so self-suspended and became an Engineering Officer.

But I've never heard of anyone who soloed in the JP being dismissed as 'useless'.

[Al R]

I got chopped from a Buccaneer squadron, because no matter how much I loved it (lots) I really wasn't very good at it!!


DeltaHotel,

Forgive what might seem a silly point, but I thought that once you got to sqn stage, you would have been deemed to have been 'very good' at it?

Or, am I not realising a wah when I see it anymore? :(

[charliegolf]

Self-suspensions are equally rare.

I remember a story about a Harrier pilot at Gut about 84 ish, who walked into his boss's office and basically admitted that he was on the edge with no spare capacity on just about every trip. If the story is true, he was grounded at his own request there and then.

I admired his decision. Don't know what became of him.

CG

[Dunhovrin]

There never ever ever has been a fast jet pilot hiding inside me

Couldn't fit in for all the pies already there...


Met an ATCer who had been chopped whilst holding after Valley. Had been sent ATC for a tour (no TacWep slots) and his SATCO decided he should never be allowed to go back to pilot. Okaaay....

[Pontius Navigator]

Or the pilots that decided on a career brake and decided to give fighter control a try.

[Old-Duffer]

At a ground officers training school in Lincolnshire summer '64, the students assembled and went round the class to introduce themselves.

One ex-nav trainee said; "because of my injured knee, I lost my medical 'cat' and now I'm in a ground branch". From the back of the room a quiet voice piped up: "why not tell 'um how you were caught cheating on your star shots".

Said officer did quite well but in civvy street years later he was fired in a blaze of publicity 'cause - you guessed it - he was caught cheating.

[Madbob]

Teeteringhead.

On a serious note to the thread you started there must be cyclical changes to how the pass rate is determined, not just at BFT and AFT but at later stages such as TWU and OCU. (Sorry, I don't know the current names, but when I went through my flying trg Brawdy and Chiv were still going strong and there were none of these reserve squadron name plates either....)

I was never a QFI or wheel in the flying training business and only saw the system from the viewpoint on being a "stude" but in the pre-Falkland Isands era when John Nott was threatening to wield the axe there was serious concern in the multi world (I went through METS at Fy in 1981 when this was a strong topic) that virtually all Canberras, Vulcans, Shacks, Andovers and even METS itself might all be for the chop which would lead to a glut of multi-engined pilots looking for a job. The QFI's themselves at METS and 242 OCU were all pretty anxious about their future posting and career prospects, let alone their studes!

The System must, albeit with extreme lag, have a way of communicating to the FTS world whether the tap is to be opened or closed. Get into the system at the "wrong" point of the cycle and your chances of passing IOT, BFT, AFT or whatever could be seriously reduced. It would be interesting to hear from those with a QFI background, how this worked in practice......

The "multi-engine bar" I am sure was raised during this time with a higher chop rate than before......Then along came the Falklands War and suddenly it was all change.....but by then it was too late for the "choppees" who ended up in other jobs or back in civvy street.

Certainly, there were lots of "holding postings" between courses then and probably there still are, and this was a way of managing the peaks and troughs but I suspect that the cuts that are coming will leave no option but for those running the system to chop trainees who would otherwise have passed a course. Hard for all.....especially for those still with stars in their eyes about all things Air Force and at the start of what for most is a life's ambition.

MB

[Union Jack]

Or the pilots that decided on a career brake

Seems to sum things up pretty well .....:ouch:

Jack

[MG]

I got chopped! I was rubbish!. I invented the 'no capacity rejoin' and thought it really nice that both my QFI and Flt Cdr were as I was shutting there to make sure I'd had a nice ride!

[Melchett01]

QFI: "Melchett, are you trying to kill us?"
Melchett: "No, why?"
QFI: "In that case, would mind awfully aiming for the threshold rather than the fence 50 yds in front of it"

During the debrief ..... look I know your heart is set on flying jets, but frankly it wouldn't be fair to send you that route. Before the end of week one, you'd be in a smoking hole in the ground. And whilst I'm not bothered about you, it wouldn't be fair to waste a perfectly good aircraft like that.

Ahhh the good old days :ok:

[deltahotel]

Al R

I guess everyone has a limit to their capacity/ability - it's only a matter of when (if) it's discovered. Found a niche in C130 and QFIing and subsequently as a757/767 skipper.

Being chopped hurt at the time, but was probably a good thing for me and the FJ navs. I still cherish my whole 211 hours on type!

[Al R]

.. it's only a matter of when (if) it's discovered.

For many, I suppose, the foresight and pragmatism that you or the boss had, never came. Or if it did - only after something catostrophic and tragic happened.

Glad you found your niche and 211 hours can't be bad.. :ok:

[Neptunus Rex]

The odd ball slips through the net. Many moons ago, there was a keen young Officer Cadet who was chopped from OTU for lack of 'OQs.'

He then joined the Army on a National Service Commission (I told you it was many moons ago!) and served for three years as an Officer, although not quite in The Household Brigade.

So, having mastered the art of massaging Senior Officers' egos, he re-applied to the RAF and breezed through OTU. At his JP school, he became great mates with Harry Staish, and, with a lot of help from very patient QFIs, just passed the course.

At Multi training, he had one of the greatest QFIs on the base, and, with a great deal of help, he passed.

He then went to OCU. Despite having to stay behind the rest of his course to re-take his Instrument Rating, he passed and was posted to an operational Squadron. The Squadron QFI was horrified at Our Lad's performance, and tried to get him scrubbed. Higher authority would not allow it. That Squadron was disbanded, so he went to another Squadron, where, after assessment, he was only allowed to fly with the Squadron QFI. During that tour he was a house guest of an Air Officer, when he let it slip that his wife was living with a Sergeant, and although he had reported it, nothing had been done. Three Senior Officers at Our Lad's base had red faces over that. It pays to cultivate Top Cover!

His next posting was to an aircrew training school as a Staff Pilot. There followed many complaints from the other (non-pilot) instructors. That was when Wingco Flying got smart. Having reviewed Our Lad's progress, he recommended him for QFI training! Now you might think that he was passing the buck. Well, you would be right. He passed the buck to the only people who had the authority to sort it out. Our Lad lasted but a few weeks at Little Rissington, before being sent to a Ground Tour with his docs endorsed that he was never to be given another flying appointment.

Our Lad was, however, allowed to keep his wings; after all, he had completed an operational tour.

[jayteeto]

Very harsh banter I think. I did try hard to hide the rotary pilot, I reckon I just managed it!! What you didn't know was that my brain was telling me to eat pies and they would let me go to multis. Unfortunately you needed some basic skills to fly those as well. Now you know where Shergar went..... Yum Yum!!

[ShyTorque]

I can tell a similar tale about someone who apparently "slipped through the net" but with a tragic ending in a very public accident.

[Neptunus Rex]

Jayteeto
You are absolutely right. Post edited to be less specific.
Cheers

[Pontius Navigator]

Or those Navs that just weren't good enough to be a Pilot and were always destined for the cheap seat in the aircraft. Hey Pontius.;)

KF, I know what BEages said but I really did want to navigate and navigate as many diferent types as I could. I succeeded even if I was thwarted and trained as a nav-rad to start with. I still managed to grab a few single nav sorties on the mighty V and well as several other of Avro's finest.

I admit that by the time I reached the Shack that urge was fading although by then I became a directional consultant for fast-jets that had lost their way.

[fincastle84]

but I really did want to navigate and navigate as many diferent types as I could.

I have to agree. As my reward for an RAF Scholarship awarded in '65 I went off to the flying club at Castle Donington (now EMA) to complete my PPL on the Chipmunk. This I duly did although not without a fare amount of stress (landing was my initial hurdle!)
On completion of the course the CFI enquired as to whether I had also passed the Nav aptitude at Biggin. I answered in the affirmative & he politely advised me that might be my better career path.
I can honestly admit that I have never regretted that advice for a single moment. I had a great time in Maritime & subsequently in both of my careers in civil aviation.
The alternative would have probably been to end up either chopped or as a truckie co pilot. Ugh.

[Miles Magister]

When asked about where I did my training I say that I completed the Jestream lead-in phase at TWU! I was very lucky to be allowed to move on to the JS because as mentioned above they were not taking many at that time.

MM

[Neptunus Rex]

The alternative would have probably been to end up either chopped or as a truckie co pilot. Ugh.Mind you, I had an ex-truckie copilot on Nimrods. He could make a Flight Imprest sing! However, our Boss did draw the line at flowers for the ladies who had to clean up after us, following our hugely successful detachment party in Nîmes!

[BEagle]

"........and decided to give fighter control a try"

One of the few benefits of being sent to RAF Biggin Hill for aircrew reselection in early 1977 was the number of chopped Fighter Controllers who appeared every so often to brighten our spirits. Several of whom were certainly worth 'a try'....:E

[fincastle84]

I had an ex-truckie copilot on Nimrods. He could make a Flight Imprest sing
.......& who later became my P1 & as you say, was worth his wait in pasties! Also he was lucky, he escaped the truckie world!
He's now a very successful business consultant.

[Pontius Navigator]

One of the few benefits of being sent to RAF Biggin Hill for aircrew reselection in early 1977 was the number of chopped Fighter Controllers who appeared every so often to brighten our spirits. Several of whom were certainly worth 'a try'....:E

And also a benefit to the Sunspot crews onthe Malta Adexes. :}

[Lafyar Cokov]

I was never chopped from anything - I was so good that I finished Tac-Wpns early, was destined for the Harrier and did the hovering course. However I think my paperwork must have been mixed up - because the hovering course lasted 12 years and included 4 different helicopter types!!

[Cows getting bigger]

Back in the day when every young man wanted to be a single seat fighter pilot (and those who expressed doubts were sent to see the Command shrink at Brampton) there was a chap on the course ahead of me who was adamant he wanted to fly VC10s. Everyone else (including Staniforth, the CFI) thought he was nuts but 'trucking' was his thing.

Paul went on to fly the Ten before moving across to the Canberra where he unfortunately met his fate.

PS. Never chopped, merely 'streamed' :)

[clunckdriver]

During Harvard training in the RCAF we had quite a few make large fatal dents in the ground, after a spate of these my instructor and I were debriefing after a flight when I mentioned that quite a few guys had quit and gone back to civy street and how they must really miss farming/teaching/ working at the familly store ect, my instructor looked at me and said words to the effect,"Your doing fine with you flying but sometimes I think your as dumb as a friggin post! They have quit because they are **** scared you bloody mooron!" This was my introduction to the "twitch" Due to a background of working in a hospital autopsy room as a kid I was the guy who had to do most of the IDs on these guys if there was enough left so it came as a total shock to me that they would quit what was to me the best time of my life. On a different note, if one reads the bios of many of the aces, some had problems in training but turned out to be the best of the best, this includes many ex US Army Air Corps types who joined the RCAF/RAF, later transfered back to the USAAC and became senior comanders, go figure!

[AYTCH]

He did exist. Was in the days when the Bona Mates did phases of I believe 3 months then onto another phase. He would just get to the point at the end of a phase where he considered himself OK but when back onto next phase, he said it was like he had never done it and so realised he would kill himself, for sure, eventually; hence the balls to fess up and he then went F-4s, back in Germany 2 ATAF actually.

Yes, a brave decision but good for him. He flew F-4s for a while then TP and last I heard was doing Typhoon TP stuff somewhere near Munich (though that was a few years ago) but do not know what he is up to today.

[pamac51]

Neptunus Rex - was that a detachment that required the Stn Cdr to fly to France with a bag full of francs to clear up the bills and keep a jnr Tech out of jail?

[Pontius Navigator]

clunk, very true. I was talking to a nav stude during a hold period in the sim, computer reload or some such.

Turned out he had VW from the RN as he had heard Naval O's talking about Sea Kings ditching and rolling etc and decided it was too dangerous. Maybe true, may be his excuse for being chopped.

Never found out how far he got through nav training.

[Dan Winterland]

There was a jolly nice chap on my senior course on JPs. He was sharper than a pair of compasses and he went to Valley with everyone expecting great things of him. But he VW'd half way through citing that he found it all a bit dull and wasn't really challenged by being a pilot. No one believed he would go - but he did. Last heard of making squillions in the city.

[fincastle84]

was that a detachment that required the Stn Cdr to fly to France with a bag full of francs to clear up the bills and keep a jnr Tech out of jail?


No it wasn't. The one you refer to was Nimes in '82. I spent a very uncomfortable afternoon on the 'phone to some very senior officers in both HQSTC & the Paris embassy while the Stn Cdr was sitting on the pan waiting for me to collect the cash. I also had a couple of loyal siggies guarding the guilty b*****d in order to stop himself from shortening his own life span. The said person was an MT fitter who was along for the ride as a favour from Nasty for servicing his car.

I learnt about flying from that..............

[26er]

My FTS course in 50/51 had as our flight commander on Harvards, a very steady chap with DSO, DFC & Bar (Flt Lt Geof Bray). We all wanted to go on multis and eventually a few took the Wellington OCU route, and one even disappeared to the kipper fleet where before being used as a driver airframe one had to learn real navigation on white painted Lancasters. But about two months before graduation Geoff was posted and the new guy, Flt Lt Dean Jones, was a fighter boy through and through. There was a complete change of attitude. He arranged for six Meteors of his old unit to visit us at Ternhill, the smell of avtag was injected into our veins and seven of us went to Valley to become starry eyed killers.

What became of Plt Offs Perry, Smallwood, Price and Lawrence and Sgt Pilots Jones and White?

[Trim Stab]

Of those who get chopped, what proportion stay in the services?

Presumably if somebody is chopped, but retrains to a different speciality within the services, then it can be assumed that they joined for a military career. If they promptly leave - then presumably they just joined to learn to fly?

[minigundiplomat]

I used to sit next to the son of the then CAS, when I was going through Groundschool at Shawbury. He had been chopped from Valley and streamed rotary. I think FJ had been his dream as he left soon after to work in the city.

I hope he is doing well, he was a good guy and determined his father's rank cast the minimum of shadow over his own performance.

[Hamish 123]

Trim,

I got chopped on JPs ("Nice aeros, but the nearer you get to the ground, the worse you get" was the gist of my chop ride debrief), and I left as soon as possible after being withdrawn from flying training. I didn't think that I could stand being around those that could do what I had always wanted to do since I was a boy. I now regret that hasty decision, as I loved being in the RAF, and was proud to be a commissioned officer. If I have one criticism of that time post-chop, it was that no one made any effort to try and assess if I was really doing the right thing. I think that I could easily have been pursuaded to go nav, or try another branch.

Of course, there's always the possibility that I wasn't deemed to be a great loss to the officer cadre . . . .

[BANANASBANANAS]

I was 'chopped' - well, I prefer the term 'medically suspended' from FJ training on the Hawk at Valley in '83. No complaints. The RAF had given me 2 goes at Farnborough on the spin table and doing all the aerobatic Hunter stuff with the superb Mike Bagshaw.

At the end of the second spell at Farnborough I returned to Valley and was sent up with an ex Lightning jock (JF) for some SCT. The deal was, if I could prevent the contents of my stomach from decorating the inside of the canopy I could continue on the course. We came back with multiple +6 g readings on the accelerometer and 3 blue bags bursting to capacity. Game over.

Whilst I knew what was coming I could still smile at the entry JF made in the Auth sheets when we signed in - 'DNCO - Student Cat 5'

Still, it all worked out well in the end. I now have the best seat in the house on a B744F.:ok:

[BEagle]

Only +6g? He can't have been trying! JF pulled a lot more than that one dark night in his Lightning - realising something wasn't quite right about his intercept, he pulled his head out of the B-scope to see nothing but black on the attitude indicator; the nadir star was dead centre and slowly rotating. Too fast for airbrakes, idle/idle and PULL....snoooooze....wake up climbing slowly through about 400 ft with the speed dropping through 200KIAS. Burners, recover, then home for new trousers!

But his 'little event' provided valuable fatigue data for the rest of Lightning fleet - and it seems that they had more life left in them than BWoS had previously thought.

Apparently he had lace marks from his turning-trousers imprinted on his legs for weeks afterwards.

[Matt Skrossa]

Reminds me of the RN and RAF chopped pilots on their JATCC at RAF Shawbury, neither of whom should have been chopped (naturally!!) They spent so long bemoaning their fate that they both knew each other’s story verbatim. They hold court in the bar and would tell anyone who expressed a vague interest about not only their own story of how the military had missed out on a future Red Arrow/Sea Harrier pilot, but also the other guys story too. One day in advance sim the RAF chap stood up halfway through a busy slot, took his headset off and with the words 'I don't want to do this crap anymore' walked out of the sim. He was found in his room about 15 mins later, and about 30 mins after was (via the Station Commander) off the station. Without his mate to banter with the RN bloke was chopped a week or so later. Moral of the story... it is a big big disappointment getting chopped, but if you don't move on you'll continue to fail.

[luffers79]

I had a student at RAF Valley who was a very poor pilot & had great difficulty flying the Vampire T11. Yet he was a wonderful guy/officer (Course Leader). I gave him extra hours instruction (claiming an instructional Dual flight had only lasted 50 minutes - whereas it had lasted 60 or 65 minutes) & then, finally, suggested a change of Instructor might help. It didn´t !! He was eventually paraded in front of the C.O. to be suspended. But before the CO started to talk he said, "Sir, I know exactly why I am here & it´s the Happiest Day of my Life !! Now I can go home & tell my father (an ex RAF Group Captain pilot) & say, "Father, I´m NO BLOODY GOOD. I CAN´T FLY !!!!!!. All my life you´ve told me I´m going to be a pilot ... & I HATED the idea !! But I love the RAF - & can I PLEASE stay in as an Administrator, Sir" !! (He did !!). :)

[4Greens]

The word 'Chopped' itself sums up the flying training system. Only beaten by a 'scrub check' in my day. I passed so not biased.

[luffers79]

During my time at RAF Heany in S. Rhodesia, a fellow student had just completed a NIGHT cross country exercise with his instructor. They flew to points A,B, & C & then returned to base. Another 3 different turning points were given to the student & he was told to go off again - SOLO this time - & call on the radio when over each turning point. His radio calls were received on time by the control tower. Next morning the overnight local police security patrol reported that a Harvard aircraft had been noticed that had its engine running - & with all its lights off in a remote corner of the (grass) airfield during the night, for about an hour ?? - Very unusual ?? It hadnt been noticed by Air Traffic Control that he hadnt actually taken off !! He had made his radio calls on time - but he didnt even leave the ground !!. He said the trip went well to his instructor. Scared of flying SOLO at night. Suspended immediately. :uhoh:

[Captain Sand Dune]

The word 'Chopped' itself sums up the flying training system.
The word "litigation" sums up flying training in the ADF pretty well today.

During my time at RAF Heany in S. Rhodesia, a fellow student had just completed a NIGHT cross country exercise with his instructor. They flew to points A,B, & C & then returned to base. Another 3 different turning points were given to the student & he was told to go off again - SOLO this time - & call on the radio when over each turning point. His radio calls were received on time by the control tower. Next morning the overnight local police security patrol reported that a Harvard aircraft had been noticed that had its engine running - & with all its lights off in a remote corner of the (grass) airfield during the night, for about an hour ?? - Very unusual ?? It hadnt been noticed by Air Traffic Control that he hadnt actually taken off !! He had made his radio calls on time - but he didnt even leave the ground !!. He said the trip went well to his instructor. Scared of flying SOLO at night. Suspended immediately.:D
Sounds like the PNG students at Point Cook (before some egotistical senior officer abandoned it!:ugh:).
Apparently one of them launched on his solo medium level navex and orbitted behind a range of hills (You Yangs, SW of Melbourne) giving position reports. I think he got discovered by a staff shepherd aircraft.:ooh:

[BEagle]

Occasionally, the 'staff shepherd' can get a bit of a surprise...

Back in the early 1970s, a student at one UK FTS was thought to be rather timid about low level navigation and was constantly being told that he was too high during his dual trips.

So when he was sent off on a solo LL navex, a staff chase aircraft set off just after him....

The student turned out to be very far from being timid at low level and was right down in the weeds for his entire trip - far lower than the staff pilot was prepared to fly!

[MrBernoulli]

.... what's the best way to be given the news? "Have you ever considered a career in Modern Dance Choreography, Bloggs?"

[teeteringhead]

what's the best way to be given the news? ... traditionally it's:

"Wot does yer mother call you Bloggs?"

"Nigel Sir"

"Well Nigel, yer chopped!"

[ACW599]

Or the variant form:

"What's your mother's Christian name, Bloggs?"

"Betty, Sir"

"Well, Betty Bloggs's son, you're chopped".

[frodo_monkey]

Probably apocryphal, but the best one I heard (and I suspect it would be from Valley):

QFI: "Bloggs, this is how much capacity you need to be a fast-jet pilot in the Royal Air Force."

(draws large 18" square on whiteboard)

"This is how much capacity you have."

(draws 1" square inside previous 18" square)

"Bloggs, you will never be a fast-jet pilot."

Cue Bloggs probably blubbing, and with good reason!

[Pontius Navigator]

The Vulcan, allegedly a 4-jet advanced trainer for pilots that couldn't be let out on their own. Anyway this u/t copilot couldn't hack it and had the one-sided sympathy interview with the CI.

Later, same stude, spitting feathers, is clearing his room in the mess - yes his posting was that quick - slung his OCU notes in the dustbin.

He then had a second one-sided and less sympathetic interview with the CI.

[Dan Winterland]

How I got to hear I wasn't going to be a Fighter Pilot.

Boss: "Well Plt Off Winterland, you can either be a truckie or a smoking hole on a hillside. Your choice".

Me: ''Er, I'll be a truckie''.

Boss: "Good choice".

[airborne_artist]

Self-suspensions are equally rareI was that aviator. About half-way through BFT(H) on 705 at Culdrose I decided I'd gone far enough. I didn't really like the donkey being turned off in a helo - there's little enough keeping the dammed thing flying without removing the power-source, but I was a pretty crap baby officer, in all reality, with far too little life experience having gone from boarding school to Dartmouth with only eight months in between.

It cost me £350 to get out. I tried asking to be re-streamed as an Hydrographer, but they insisted I re-did all/some of BRNC, and I wouldn't have it.

It wasn't a totally negative experience of life in uniform. Less than 18 months later I was a badged part-time Hooligan, and thus became (I think) the first BRNC grad to wear a pair of Stirling's wings. Two hundred and seventy-three started my Selection and nine passed :E

On much reflection I was too immature at nineteen/twenty for what I had chosen. If I'd done things the other way about, and headed for the RN after a few years in a beige beret I reckon I'd have hacked it more easily.

I wasn't a bad aviator - my last trip was with Trevor L******d (then a trapper) and he was good enough to give me an A- for the ride, but I just wasn't enough of an adult at the time for all that went with it.

[BEagle]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/w.jpg

Fg Off Winterland found the co-pilot's seat of large aircraft much more to his liking........;)

[Neptunus Rex]

Good one Beags!
With those attributes, The Hutt should have been on Shacks.

[cornish-stormrider]

beags, that is mighty funny for an old git - now do tell. When Star Wars was released back in 77 did you get an OAP discount?

To all those who took being chopped like men, found a new niche and made a name for themselves well done.

To all those who got chopped and whined like a bitch about it, at least you had the chance to try, got some stick time before you were chopped.

There are thousands out here that would have killed for the chance to try.


Me included - apparently the RAF doesn't recruit speccy blind gits as pilots - as my last instructor pilot said to me - "tis a shame youre a blind one chubby, you're not totally ******* inept at this aviating malarkey"

I take it as a compliment, I just wish I could remember his name...

[BEagle]

beags, that is mighty funny for an old git - now do tell. When Star Wars was released back in 77 did you get an OAP discount?
Cheeky sod - the large, hairy orange creature was a good squadron mate of mine - now flying airliners in the Orient.

Actually, I have far better memories of 1977 than 'Star Wars'. After Aircrew Reselection interviews at Biggin, I asked for a holding slot on the unit rather than lingering around the OM like a bad smell. Which was quite fun. Playing blunties was rather enjoyable at times, plus the unit permanent staff were a cheerful bunch, unlike some of the OASC miseries.

One happy day I was told that I'd been reselected to Vulcans and that this would be preceded by a short refresher course on the JP at Leeming. So, on Boat Race day, I packed all my worldly possessions into the car (again - but the MG Midget I'd had at whilst at Wittering on 58 Sqn had been replaced by a Fiat 128SL coupe by then) and set off across London for the A1.

SORF Leeming was huge fun; top banter from various Wg Cdrs refreshing before taking up Sqn Cdr slots and much rushing about Yorkshire at nought foot six! Bugger all 'lead in' for the Tin Triangle, but epic fun! A few weeks later it was back down the A1 to Sunny Scampton (in a little more comfort as the Fiat 128SL Coupe had been replaced by an Opel Manta Berlinetta) - and into the rather dour Officers Mess. A few weeks later I popped into the bar for a quick pre-prandial beer and fell into conversation with a Plt Off navigator, who told me that he and his 2 chums were looking for a 4th to share a house. All thoughts of dinner forgotten, we drove to his place and the 4 of us were soon in the local pub. Next day some paperwork, quickly signed by the boss, then I moved out over the Easter weekend.

Next followed 2 of the best years of my undistinguished RAF career! So thank you to the staff of the Buccaneer OCU for having chopped me, releasing me to the extremely enjoyable lifestyle of a late-1970s Vulcan pilot!

Now godfather to said Plt Off navigator's son!

[Pontius Navigator]

I popped into the bar for a quick pre-prandial beer

Ah, those were the days. Even earlier, before the OCU moved, we often popped into the bar for a pre-prandial and oozed out of the bar around 1.30
INTO BROAD SUNLIGHT.

The bar was so dark it was easy to forget it was a lunchtime session.

[Chimbu chuckles]

26er

My FTS course in 50/51 had as our flight commander on Harvards, a very steady chap with DSO, DFC & Bar (Flt Lt Geof Bray). We all wanted to go on multis and eventually a few took the Wellington OCU route, and one even disappeared to the kipper fleet where before being used as a driver airframe one had to learn real navigation on white painted Lancasters. But about two months before graduation Geoff was posted and the new guy, Flt Lt Dean Jones, was a fighter boy through and through. There was a complete change of attitude. He arranged for six Meteors of his old unit to visit us at Ternhill, the smell of avtag was injected into our veins and seven of us went to Valley to become starry eyed killers.

What became of Plt Offs Perry, Smallwood, Price and Lawrence and Sgt Pilots Jones and White?

26er Plt Off Perry is my father. He flew the Meatbox and Vampire, bailed out of one into the Bristol Channel (if memory serves). Emigrated to Australia in mid 50s and joined the RAAF where he flew Lincoln (operationally in Malaya) and C47s among others. Joined TAA in 1961, QF in 1966 and retired from QF on the 747-200 in 1987.

He is alive and well...and recently became a Great Grandfather:ok:

PM me if you would like his email addy.

[madlandrover]

I was a pretty crap baby officer, in all reality, with far too little life experience having gone from boarding school to Dartmouth with only eight months in between.

Much the same here, albeit a few years later on. Chopped at the end of EFT (low level nav a bit iffy, I tended to sit and watch the world go by...) and learnt a lesson or 2 about the process. Now teaching PPL/CPL/ME etc and understanding what's so annoying about an indecisive student!!

[parabellum]

A bit of education please. I 'did' Biggin Hill in 1964 so I am familiar with Aircrew Aptitude testing but what is Aircrew Re-Selection, is it just a 'career path adjustment' exercise or do you have to do all the tests all over again? (Ex Pongo, so never came across it before BEags post).

[Lou Scannon]

I often think back some fifty years and wonder what happened to some of the really good chaps at ITS and flying training who, in the opinion of the directing staff, should be excused all further excitement.(In later years and with more experience I would have scrubbed some of the staff!)).

John Rothwell, Chas Hobbs at ITS. Chris Dent, Mike Banks and others at Syerston.

Hope they all made it out of the RAF.

[Rakshasa]

I worked very briefly with lad a few years ago who had the misfortune to come down with meningitis while holding for Valley and then had medical complications that put an end to any hope of a flying career. Must be bloody awful to wonder what might have been.

[BEagle]

parabellum, aircrew re-selection didn't require any further aptitude testing, although we were asked to trial a couple of prototype tests under development by the trick-cyclists. This wasn't subterfuge as the test papers bore no names or references.

It was mainly a series of interviews, attitude assessments and board reviews. Whilst I (and others) were there after bonging the Bucc OCU, other mates from the Lightning and Harrier OCUs were also there, together with people from the whole spectrum of RAF aircrew training - including those who'd been chooped before solo-ing on the Chipmunk. The ex-Harrier mate could fly the jet fine, but told us that he was cr@p at navigating - his 'heading and time' flying on the JP, Gnat and Hunter had been so accurate that he'd always been scored highly, but they only found out that his 'free' navigation wasn't up to snuff when he was on the Harrier. But he was re-selected to the F4 OCU which suited him just fine.

Some took the option to leave, whilst others opted for a branch change.

Normally the first few interviews took place soon after arrival; you were then supposed to go on gardening leave or hang around the Officers Mess whilst the board did its work - this could take weeks. However, I marched into my bosses office and told him that I wanted something useful to do, so I had a few weeks of enjoyable bluntness acting as Dep OC GD Flt and Dep Families Officer. The latter was quite fun as I used to infuriate the Barrack Warden by being very lenient on march-outs. I dismissed a large stain on the floor of some Wg Cdr's bedroom carpet as being 'normal wear and tear' and the Barrack Warden nearly went into low earth orbit.....then I found the Wg Cdr's wife on her hands and knees scrubbing the kitchen floor, so I merely told the Barrack Warden "Kitchen - fine" because I didn't think it fitting for senior officers' wives to have to scrub floors just to pass a march out. Neither did I take more than a cursory glance at her cooker. Power is great fun when you can abuse it for the benefit of others! But when the real Families Officer came back from leave, she was 'rather surprised' at what I'd done :)

We 'reselectees' were full Mess Members, of course. One day there was a vote about when Dining-In nights should be held. Many of the bean-stealers wanted them on Thursdays, so they could slink off home with their hangovers on Fridays. Of course we all turned up at the Mess Meeting and voted firmly for Friday night Dining-Ins - the beanstealers were livid but the PMC thought it was highly amusing and announced that Dining-In nights would continue to be held on Fridays...:E

[Fitter2]

Yes, Beags, the conscious abuse of power in a righteous cause can give more satisfaction than most things the service life can inflict. :ok:

[Fareastdriver]

There is no point in having power unless you can abuse it!

[Neptunus Rex]

Quite right BEags.

At Honington in the early '70s, accommodation was split between the main Officers' Mess building and some grotty huts at the back. There were several beanstealers living in the splendid rooms in the main Mess. Then I was appointed Mess Secretary. I checked the Warning In/Out book, and found that the beanstealers were, on average, spending over 30% of the time away from the Mess. I drafted a points system, whereby the bachelor officers were awarded points according to rank, seniority and the number of weeks living in the huts. Married officers - nil points. The PMC and Staish approved, so the beanstealers were evicted and several happy bachelors took up residence. I was a bachelor, but 'lived out' in a magnificent pad in the country, so I had no axe to grind.

[fincastle84]

Then I was appointed Mess Secretary

Were you still a career officer in those days? (or should I transfer this to the 'Banter' thread??????:sad:

[BEagle]

Neptunus, I was one of the unfortunates crammed into the Honington Orlits in 1976. Miserable little dog kennels in which I had to keep myself and all my worldly possessions (apart from my car....).

One beanstealer lived at RAF Wittering and would vacate his splendid room in the OM in time to drive 70 miles to Wittering's Happy Hour on Fridays.

Fortunately I did eventually move in to the main OM - but for only a few weeks before my pre-Vulcan Buccaneer course came to its ultimate conclusion.

[Neptunus Rex]

BEags

That was a shame, as the points system must have been abandoned. It wasn't original, I just modified the scheme for MQs, which I thought was poetic justice. I think it should have been applied to all OMs, which are the bachelor officers' home.

[parabellum]

Thanks Beags. All understood.

[XN593]

Dear All,
What a great thread. It has prompted me to write only my 3rd post.
I had always wanted to be a pilot. I joined the Air Cadets at 13, was awarded a gliding scholarship in 1970 followed by a Flying Scholarship in 1971. With the financial help from my parents I clocked up the necessary hours to complete my PPL. I joined the RAF and went through Helow (275 course) where my Flight Commander was a Navigator from Malta. Then it was straight on to Church Fenton and as I had a PPL a short chipmunk course. I did 13 hours and one solo before leaving for Linton. And now I started to be air sick. Nevertheless, on the 12th Feb 1974 after 11 hours I went solo on XN593. The fateful flight came 9 days later. I had done a few flights on my own and this one was a dual nav ex in the morning with the solo version later that day. During the flight I threw up and started hyperventilating. My fingers locked onto the coming and I needed an injection to relax my muscles before I could get out. Recovering in the ward my medical became A1G1Z1. The diagnosis was an indirect expression of emotion. I was medically retired and became Pilot Officer Smith (RAF Retd). I was 20.

I would much rather have been chopped because I was no good. At least then I would have known. Reading the forums brings back memories of things I missed. Would I want to be Beagle or Lightning Mate, you bet. I have no reason to doubt the medical assessment. There was no option of the spin table. I would love to go back with the knowledge that experience & maturity bring and to be able to fly without the nerves of youth. Could I have hacked it? If Flt Lt Anders is out there, how did I do?

I am saddened by some of the changes that have befallen the RAF. Are there really no crew rooms anymore? And so many stations gone.

Enough of this soppy sentimental stuff, must go and buy a ticket for Fridays Euromillions. XN593 is languishing in some hanger in the US. Everything is possible.

Regards to all who got the chop. I wonder if my dayglow axe is still stuck on the crew room ceiling.

P.S. I have never been air sick since.

[Failed_Scopie]

I wasn't chopped - "No - really - I wasn't chopped - honestly!" - I PVR'd. The callowness of youth, a misplaced sense of entitlement, intellectual arrogance, all were ascribed to me and all, to a degree, were true. However, while I sometimes wonder what might have been, I don't actually regret it. At the end of the day, I simply did not wish to become a Fighter Controller, and nothing that I have seen or heard about since has actually disuaded me from this point of view. I was sent on leave, hung around at CHOM for a bit and crossed the road to OASC for further interviews and branch re-selection. In the end, though, it made no difference - I wished to leave and after a very uncomfortable interview with the 2* at Cranditz, was granted my wish. By October that year I was a Lt in the Royal Corps of Signals and almost 11 years later am now a fairly senior post sub-unit command SO2 (not an overwhelming achievement I know, but further than I think I would have gone in the RAF). I meant to return to Cranwell next year for a course at the AWC - it'll be emotional... :E

[flap15]

In responce to Trim Tabs question. After an EFTS course on Chippies and a FTS course on the JP's with 130hours of Aunty Betty time I was chopped. Failure in air work, was the bland comment in my log book. In reality I reached a wall in and it was taking me too long to find a way over it. I had considered engineering as an option if I had gone early but as I was told by an old instructer "If the company was not shrinking I would have gone multi's".
So I requested to be released, got my commercial. Spent 10 happy years in general aviation before joining the big jet brigade. So I now have the responsibilities of a Flt Lt, have four stripes of a Grp Capt but the pay of an Air Commodore. However I do miss the Air Force.

[Roger the cabin boy]

I met this fellow once - the bloke was an absolute loon. He had some horrendous tale along the lines of he went V-Force, got chopped. Went heli's, got chopped. Went Fighter Control, got chopped. Went Herc's, got chopped. The sequence and types may be incorrect, but something like that. Think he was a Nav?

Some time later I believe he was spoken to by some burly gentlemen with cheap suits for leaking info about an Air Officer's MQ. Later still, there was some scandal because his wife had been caught getting amorous in the Gents (with someone else) during a Christmas Draw. I think he ultimately managed to see out his PC in the RAF without every getting CR on an aircraft type or ever being productive. Brilliant. Often wonder (out of idle curosity) what he's doing now.

[Tankertrashnav]

Never been chopped, but as there's a lot of FJ - rotary - nav banter going on maybe I can contribute

Went straight in as a Nav as eyesight was below pilot standard, got straight through without being recoursed. Thoroughly enjoyed being down the back, but always had a nagging feeling that I was missing something.

Fast forward 30 years and started a PPL at age 60. Two highpoints. One obviously was first solo after a total of - wait for it - 27 hours!!! (Not a record, Im assured, but I was being to feel like that Welsh woman learning to drive). Other highpoint - first solo landaway - Lands End - Perranporth - Lands End. Got as much of a kick out of that as pretty much anything I have ever done.

I know there are guys on here with multi thousands of hours flying scores of types, but just that one little day's flying means I can in some small way count myself as part of their world :ok:

(Still think of myself as a nav though ;))

[Union Jack]

So I now have the responsibilities of a Flt Lt, have four stripes of a Grp Capt but the pay of an Air Commodore.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Jack

[Pontius Navigator]

trial a couple of prototype tests under development by the trick-cyclists. This wasn't subterfuge as the test papers bore no names or references.

Thread drift but around this time many of us received "annoymous" questionnaires, attitude surveys IIRC. We didn't believe the assurance that it was truely annoymous and altered our DOB on the forms.

Not long after we all got individual letters telling us that our replies were important and asking us to complete the questionnaires.

Annonymous my arse.

[Pete268]

I must admit I was quite impressed by a young lad on my basic Airmans course at RAF Swinderby back in the very early 80's. After just two weeks he decided he was so homesick, being so far away from his family etc, that he decided to voluntarily chop himself from the course and go home.................

....to Swinderby Village!

Mind you he was positively dangerous attempting to do drill with a dummy SLR, never mind being let loose with a real 'bang stick'.

Peter

[Wander00]

Then there was the young man who turned up one Sunday evening in the early eighties for IOT. On Monday morning he had gone, and pinned to his pillow was a £20 note to pay for any charges he had incurred and an apology for any inconvenience he had caused. He was recalled to complete the VW paperwork!

[BEagle]

There was a chap like that on 99 Entry, RAFC. We met up on the train from Kings Cross to Grantham, where we were herded onto buses which drove us straight to the South Brick Lines. After dumping kit and being marched off for various arrival adresses, back we went to the SBLs.

The next day he simply wasn't there. We later found out that he hadn't even unpacked; he'd called a taxi from the Junior Mess the night before and simply bogged off. The son of a colonel too......

[oxenos]

The South Brick Lines, sadly, are no more. You would have thought they would have kept one, just to show the luxury we used to live in.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

If you'd never been through it, don't critise [sic] those who have. It's their effort and their dashed dreams and if I was them I'd be damned if I was going to let someone who'd never been in my shoes critise [sic] me for my reaction.


I have been through the process of being chopped, and of course it's very sad to have one's personal dreams dashed etc. But even at the time, I could see that it was the right course of action, and I'm just about man enough to admit to people, when the matter comes up in conversation, that the sole reason I was chopped was because I wasn't good enough. It never ceases to amaze me how many people who have been chopped simply bleat and make excuses for what happened, which makes them appear weak of character as well as (inevitably) weak at flying.

[Pontius Navigator]

To try and fail is far far better than to fail to try.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

CP, PN,

Fair points, but if one does try and sadly not make it, why not be grown up and face the facts, rather than vainly trying to pull the wool over people's eyes? Let's face it, the RAF doesn't want to chop people it's spent money on, so if you are chopped, it's because you can't do it! I'm not proud to admit that I couldn't fly a Hawk well enough, and it was a shame to get chopped on my Wings trip, but it was a fair cop and I'm grateful that I was given the chance to try. After I was chopped I was more interested in moving on than trying to pretend I should have made the Synchro Pair but was seen off by a bad instructor!

By all means be sad but don't make up excuses, it's insulting to people's intelligence!

[Dan Winterland]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/w.jpg

''Fg Off Winterland found the co-pilot's seat of large aircraft much more to his liking........''

Looks like my first tour on Victors!

[Ogre]

We had a bloke at Swinderby who left the day after we arrived, citing the fact that the DI Sgt was from his home town, and knew his mum because they used to be neighbours.

[RAFRAAF]

To 26er re FTS Ternhill
I was at Ternhill through 1952, graduating in Oct. I do not know if there may have been someone with the same surname there the year before. I was on 88 Course.
Perhaps you can help settle a question - did the Prentices have one or two ID letters on the side of the fuselage?
I have recently established contact with Geoff Siers. Do you know him - he was at Ternhill in 50/51
Rgds James Perry

[scarecrow450]

RAFRAAF I've just your post while sitting here in the tower at Ternhill !!waiting for the days first lot of Heli's to arrive from Shawbury

[Tankertrashnav]

Looks like my first tour on Victors!


Oh now I remember you, Dan!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

waiting for the days first lot of Heli's to arrive from Shawbury

Nice to see 660 making the most of the flying day:E

[racedo]

Reminds me of some "females" have woken next too,
they just never looked like that the night before.................Honest:ugh:



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/w.jpg

[Rigger1]

One from engineers. In the early to mid 90’s getting a ‘fitters’ course, SAC to JT was a bit of a big thing. Although it was widely accepted that if you were remotely competent you would get on one eventually it was just a question of how long you were prepared to wait. Having worked hard I finally got my course. This was a new style of fitters course with lots of academics and lasted 51 weeks, It was also now at Cosford having recently moved from Halton.

We turned up on the Sunday evening, booked in and being hardened liney SAC’s did the right thing, found the bar and got wasted, severely wasted, so wasted in fact that come our first parade in the morning, and for many of us our first real encounter with a ‘discip’ for 5+ years, we were a little worse for wear. So imagine one discip shouting and screaming when one very hungover SAC says “I can’t believe this bull****”, Discip goes even more ‘ape’ and asks the airman, “don’t you want to be here?” Only to be met with the response, “no not really”. Said SAC turned round walked off leaving discip quit literally gobsmacked. And to this day I still don’t know what happened to him.

[the_boy_syrup]

I was reminded by this thread sitting next to someone at a T.A. passing out parade last week

".........Of course his problem is he selected to fly fast jet from day one.
Once you learn to fly fast jets you can't fly any other aircraft
If he had selected to fly multi engine from the start like some of his mates he would be still in the RAF now, and now that he's left he could have gone to an airline and carried on flying
But he was determined to fly fast jets only and thats cost him his place"

[Herod]

To quote my JP instructor. "You're about a second behind the aircraft. You'll get away with it here, but on Gnats it will be dangerous, and on Lightnings it will be fatal." So no fast jets and off to helicopters (see, I wasn't actually "chopped"). He was wrong on one point. It would probably have been fatal on the Gnat. Would have loved to have had a try though. :ok:

[Dan Winterland]

Only a second? Wow!

[RAFRAAF]

Hi there Scarecraw 450. Have they repaired the hole in the roof of No2. Hangar yet? I brought my wife up tp Ternhill when we visited the UK in '87. The army was in possession (SAS I think), are they still there or are you RAF?

[Old-Duffer]

Hi RAFRAAF,

Ternhill '87 it was probably Para Regt (SAS at Hereford, where they have now taken over ex-RAF Credenhill). Army infantry units are now based there (they move about a bit). Becuase they don't have as many officers as the RAF in the units they send there, the Army pulled down the two wings of the Officers' Mess. The immediate impact of this was to reduce the length of the motorbike race track at Guest Nights!

The 'Sunshine' Hangar still has a hole in the roof, courtesy of A Hitler & Co. There is a gliding school there and Shawbury uses it as an RLG (unfortunately, a good mate met his end there a few years ago in a mid-air). Nice prison just down the road

Ternhill, which became Tern Hill, was my first station after training and I hold very fond memories of it.

O-D

[scarecrow450]

The hanger seems ok as we only have the afd, the Royal Irish have the domestic site which includes the hangers. The sunshine hanger is now a car park surrounded by ground floor offices still on the same area of the hanger. The ATC gliders use it at weekends and they have a bellman hanger to store their plastic airframes and various vehicles.

As Old-Duffer said a gentleman, of an instructor, unfortunatly lost his life there in Jan 07.

The Stoke Heath hangers are used by various companiessuch as a pallet maker and a potato supplier and the prison(young offenders) I think is built on the site of the former hospital.

If anyone wants a few pics of Ternhill pm me and I'll send em

[RAFRAAF]

I think it must be someone else with the same name. The year's all wrong. Thanks for the thought but delete your message

[RAFRAAF]

Hi Scarecrow450
Thanks for the info. How sad to hear how the old place has been run down from its former glory. It was of the best flying stations I served on.

[Herod]

I thought Tern Hill was a good station, after all, I did my helicopter training there. However, I also met my ex-wife there, so I suppose the two cancel each other out. :)

[cornish-stormrider]

Re post 101 - nearly right. I dont begrudge the firm for not letting me in as an interface unit - bliind jockey = smoking hole in side of hill. Thems the breaks and ce la vie.

My point was there are many more like me out here, you make it through selection, get into the jet, find there is a big flaw in your make up and get chopped. Don't bitch about it - be proud of it. you got a lot further than many (and you got some stick time).

There ain't no shame in saying - yep I hit an ability wall - better that than hitting a school wall.

I can't understand why someone would need to cover that up...

[Union Jack]

"No - really - I wasn't chopped - honestly!"

I can hardly believe that we have reached a total of over 120 posts without someone else pointing that presumably all Israeli Air Force FJ pilots have been chopped - well, the boys at least!:eek:

Jack

[Pontius Navigator]

Well there they have to put their chopper on the line.

[flap15]

Is that during the final handling test?

[Top Bunk Tester]

Just hope they weren't pulling whilst stepping on the ball :)

[Mogwi]

I was chopped on the Wessex HAS1 at Cu in '68 only to join the Crabs and fly the Wessex 2 for a tour. Later I swapped to the Harrier and finally shot down a couple of helicopters in the falklands (along with some A4s). Oh, and I flew 6 hours Wessex during the Falklands war as well!

Don't know what the moral of the story is but it was fun!

[XV490]

A short-sighted Royal Navy. Says it all! Privileged to have a post next to yours, sir. Hope Mr Branson affords you the appropriate respect!

[Brian 48nav]

I honestly did apply to be a nav! Several reasons:-
1. My mate at school,'Nav to Pilot' on this forum, was doing nav training and it sounded right up my street.
2. I'd just seen Dr Strangelove and thought the nav on the B52 was really cool and obviously in charge of the aeroplane.
3. But the real truth is my underconfidence in anything requiring bodily co-ordination. I couldn't even do a forward roll as a kid!
In 1973 when my second tour on Hercs was finishing and the posters wouldn't give me a shiny fleet posting,I thought about becoming a civilian pilot and went off to Staverton to do a PPL. Everything was OK in naving,planning a trip,R/T etc but I was crap at poling the thing! This was just after the Invicta Vanguard prang in Switzerland, where apparently the captain had taken 8 attempts to pass his IR. I decided even if I did improve that I could not inflict myself on the travelling public.

I became a civilian ATCO (just the sort of thing I had been trying to avoid in the mob) and enjoyed the job eventually with postings at LATCC (ugh!), Stornoway,Boscombe Down and finally LHR.
I did apply to go back in air force in '77, but it was just after the Comet,Brit,Belfast & Andover had been scrubbed and there was no chance of getting back on Hercs. Before I was committed to rejoining I found I was destined for Vs,because of my plotting ability(!!!).Needless to say, having been a Herc nav (incidentally the first postee from Nav School on to the the mighty beast), there was no way I was going to go in an aircraft I considered a death trap for rear crew!
So I stayed in the CAA and lived happily ever after.

Fincastle we are roughly the same age - I was on 88 nav course what was yours?

[Pontius Navigator]

2. I'd just seen Dr Strangelove and thought the nav on the B52 was really cool and obviously in charge of the aeroplane.

Very true. Apart from pounding circuits all the Captain did was drive the airframe, keep us alive, and fill in the SORs every trip.

Each crew member had his stats and the sortie was put together by the plotter.

[AR1]

I'll tell you why people from all branches, trades or rank cover up being chopped. Going to any station tainted with failure is (or was) like walking into a village and introducing yourself as the new leper.

[Neptunus Rex]

Not always. One of my mates was chopped from AEO training. Two years later he arrived on our squadron as a pilot. He didn't mind at all, as I suppose he was the village miracle.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Thread creep alert. I knew an LAC steward who worked in the O Mess at RAF Nause Brighton who got laughed out of court when he declared he wanted to remuster as a pilot. A few years later he was flying the Vickers fun bus around the skies, based at the very same Nause Brighton. I believe he now works for Emirates.:ok:

Beags will probably be able to verify this story.

[reacher]

AR1 - It's more like a case of herpes. It can be contained but never really "cured" :ouch:

[BEagle]

I can't, actually, BANANASBANANAS.

It might have been during my time away at ULAS?

I did hear a rumour that he'd eventually left under a cloud. But have absolutely no knowledge to confirm or deny such a rumour - it could well be utter bolleaux.....


....so what's new, I hear you say :\

[Dick Allen]

I recall hosting an Air Traffic Dinner at RAF Shawbury about 10 years or so ago (50th Anniversary of CATCS??) when myself and the Guest of Honour (AM Jenner) were the only pilots amongst a dining room full of controllers.

In my introduction of the Guest of Honour, I said something like:

"Our principal guest tonight is the only other pilot here...." .... long pause ... "if you don't count the chopped ones!"

Whereupon Sir Tim turns to me and says:

"You b@st@rd Allen - I was going to say that!!"

[forget]

This isn't as 'off thread' as it appears - and I've always been curious. In the mid '60s at Cottesmore there was a corporal, early forties I suppose, who wore pilots wings. No ribbons, not even a GSM, just wings. How'd that happen?

[teeteringhead]

forget Probably he trained just at the end of the war, sufficient to get his wings as Sgt Pilot, then had to remuster to stay in when aircrew numbers were slashed.

There was an LAC IIRC with wings at Linton or CF in the late 60s, but he had the ribbons too!

[goudie]

In the mid '60s at Cottesmore there was a corporal, early forties I suppose, who wore pilots wings.
I remember seeing him or someone in a similar position at Akrotiri in the '60s.
I believe he worked in ATC

[Haraka]

Beags might recall the SAC Dental Clerk at The Towers in the late 60's with wings.
A bit like the above tale, he was a Sgt. pilot on Mustangs in 1944 who remustered into one of the only available trades post war.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Hi Beags,

Just checked him out on Friends Reunited. Initials "CL" Flying B777 out of OMDB

[BEagle]

Haraka, the only dental person I recall was the lovely Sue...:ooh:...(trouser moment....)

BANANASBANANAS, nope, sorry - doesn't ring any bells. PM with the name, perhaps?

[Pontius Navigator]

This isn't as 'off thread' as it appears - and I've always been curious. In the mid '60s at Cottesmore there was a corporal, early forties I suppose, who wore pilots wings. No ribbons, not even a GSM, just wings. How'd that happen?

National service pilot left and remustered as an airman.

Siloth had a cpl steward pilot plus medals - lovely mess, all highly polished tables and sparkling linen and that in a nissan hut mess.

[Wander00]

Then there was the girl at Lincoln Training College in the early sixties - each Cadet from Sleaford Tech she went out with was chopped in succession - maybe she just picked guys who could not hack piloting, or maybe she sapped their strength!

[ACW418]

There was a SAC in the Safety Equipment section at Cottesmore in the mid 60's who wore the RAF pilots brevet. I don't know if he had any medals. I asked him one day why. He said he re-mustered after the war and liked not having to make any decisions about his life - he knew where he would be sleeping and someone cooked his food for him!

ACW

[racedo]

He said he re-mustered after the war and liked not having to make any decisions about his life - he knew where he would be sleeping and someone cooked his food for him!

In many ways you highlight what has always been the problem for service personnel who leave after long stints. They have become so Institutionalised that coping in the outside world becomes impossible so solace is sought in the demon drink.

Some end up in prison which is just another institution they can cope within.

[Tashengurt]

Some end up in prison which is just another institution they can cope within

And others end up in the Police which is about the same! :hmm:

[Gainesy]

There was a driver at Finningley in the 1960s with RAF Wings on his uniform, which was that of Leon Motors, the village bus company.

Someone (Station Commander?) at RAF Finningley objected and it ran in the local papers. Can't remember how it ended, but there were an awful lot of ex WWII Polish aircrew settled in the Donny/Finningley/Lindholme area, I think he was one of them.

[FantomZorbin]

Gainesy

Would that be the infamous Stn Cdr who got himself into the Sunday Express over a matter of an SRO entry regarding haircuts?

[Pontius Navigator]

FZ, that might have been the time when an officer (and a gentleman) returning to the Mess one Saturday saw a naked lady run through the entrance hall.

Shocked, he was considering how he was going to report this when a naked OC AW was seen following. By now, thoroughly startled, he was considering calling the station commander when who should run naked in the other direction.

He turned about smartly and went for another round of golf.

Or so I have been told.

Same time, the staish allowed the local hunt to take over the entire mess for a hunt ball. We mere livers-in were confined to a scruffs bar in one of the TV rooms.

Or so I remember, especially the monumental headache the next day and the batty, peering under the bathroom door to see if I was OK.

[ShyTorque]

In many ways you highlight what has always been the problem for service personnel who leave after long stints. They have become so Institutionalised that coping in the outside world becomes impossible so solace is sought in the demon drink.

Some end up in prison which is just another institution they can cope within.

Even worse than that, some of us end up here on PPruNe. :hmm:

[racedo]

Even worse than that, some of us end up here on PPRuNe. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

I would report that but tis a good chance PPrune Pop resembles that remark :E

[airpolice]

I found this in an article about the Breitling Jet Team in the current issue of Pilot magazine:

Dan Tye writes: "I left the RAF during my fast jet training on the Tucano, I was seduced by Skiing"

I'm not sure that's the full story but the article describes this as a story about flying with the world's only civilian jet formation team.


That bit is definitely not correct.

[Padhist]

Speaking one day to my Son's father in law, A Group Captain fighter controller, he let slip that he had failed pilot training. "What do you think you would now be had you not failed" I asked? "A Flt Lt pilot" was the reply.

[Trim Stab]

A friend of mine got chopped, and so retrained as an ATCO. After leaving the RAF, he became a civilian controller, and now earns more and has a much better and healthier lifestyle than most of my friends who are civilian pilots.

[ShyTorque]

I found this in an article about the Breitling Jet Team in the current issue of Pilot magazine:

Dan Tye writes: "I left the RAF during my fast jet training on the Tucano, I was seduced by Skiing

Surely, he was also seduced into thinking Tucanos were fast jets? Even the JP went faster.

[Trumpet_trousers]

I like the one about the baby siggie at FY in the early 80's, who photocopied the whole exercise plan for the "comms trainer" one evening whilst on 'keys.' Our hero then proceeds to plaster the inside of the "trainer" with all the correct, word-perfect, staff written replies to all the exercise injects (radio calls etc.) once inside ready to commence said exercise. Only trouble was, he got out of sync and started giving the next-but-one answer, whereupon the Staff (might have been P*te L*ng*n,) threw the door to his cubicle open to reveal the cheating b*st*rd.
Same guy was overheard later in the Mess on the phone to his girl, confidently predicting that he wouldn't get chopped, as he was far too good... he was gone within the week... :D

[Pontius Navigator]

all the correct, word-perfect, staff written replies to all the exercise injects (radio calls etc.)

Nothing new here.

A Bomber Command Bombing Comp had a comms coding element. Each aircraft would receive a coded question. Each crew had to decode the question, determine the answer, encode it and transmit it. The shortest time got the highest score.

Our heros, with Dave *r*m as the AEO, prepared a series of coded replies to the standard range of questions. The AEO took down the coded message; the plotter decoded the message and the Nav Rad selected the correct encoded reply.

No sooner had DA acknowledged when he started to send the reply. The time was brilliant butit was the wrong message :)

[ACW418]

PN

Oi that was my crew - it must have been after I left them having been grounded medically. And no I was not chopped really!

ACW

[Bob Viking]

Our very own mini David Hasselhoff lookalike!
He was on my course. Weirdly, I then bumped into him in Banff a year or so later when he was on his skiing odyssey. Small world.
BV:ok:

[Cows getting bigger]

Hi Beags,

Just checked him out on Friends Reunited. Initials "CL" Flying B777 out of OMDB

Wasn't he the chap who cooked a couple of 125 engines and then tried to pin it on the SAC linie? :hmm:

[sp6]

ULAS 1985-1986, being a speccy was not going Aircrew anyway, but got a few hours with Mike Blee in a Bulldog. I was airsick almost every trip, and I can't honestly remember if Mike told me I wasn't any good or I worked out myself I wasn't any good. Eitherway, didn't get any more flying.

If the subject ever came up in conversation, my answer was always "I just wasn't good enough". Unlike some peaches I have heard from people who evidently didn't cope with being fallible.

Fast forward 20 years and the missus gets me a flying school gift voucher, PPL, CPL, FIC with Patt Plunkett at On-Track, 1000 odd hours later and no airsickness.

Trouble is, not enough work to stay current (1-2 hours a fortnight), so voluntarily off flying until instruction work picks up.

In raw ability, capacity, spatial awareness etc, I'd never have made QSP. But knowing that , helps my judgement, which in some way make up for my average flying skills.

cheers!

[Bertie Thruster]

Not chopped exactly but I asked to be taken off the Gazelle low level phase, (lead-in to Chinook course), at Shawbury, as I really wanted SAR.

I was allowed to swap with another student, Rick Cook, who had been nominated for the SAR course. He was very keen to get onto Chinooks.

[ShyTorque]

Lucky break, Bertie.....

[Clockwork Mouse]

I got the chop in the RVH Belfast during a break from being a walking target. Risky letting an Irish doctor do it but three kids were enough.

[tarantonight]

Didn't even get passed OASC. Always remember I had no difficulty with the final question - Are you right handed or left handed?

Still know the answer to this day.

[Neptunus Rex]

Didn't even get passed OASC.Could English grammar have been a problem?

[tarantonight]

aNd tHatt.

[chopd95]

Certainly was - see posting name

However..... as friends and civ instructors ( not always same thing? ) say

You flew jets and twins - and they paid you to do it?!

Can only say that the privilege was just that - not many have had that wonderful and never repeatable experience, if but short lived.

the unwonted experience of being chopped never leaves you - but you have to accept that you didn't meet the standards of the day.

tried being a stacker, but with respect to "formastacker", and a great boss at Luqa, with amazing responsibilities on the island, It wasn't flying!!

Respect to those that have the best office in the world - and to those that may suffer as a result of the latest total political nonsense

[Madbob]

Being a cynic I just felt I had to ask this.

Are chop rates now suddenly higher and the mystical "bar" raised to stratospheric levels as a result of the cuts announced by the SDR?

I am sure if I was a QFI mindful of keeping my job back on a sqn I'd not take kindly to the fact that recently graduated "P/O Prune" had taken the one and only "slot" in the much shrunken GR4/Typhoon/RW/Multi mix of posting options on tourex.

Human nature is full of vested interests.....can't be a happy time being a "stude".....

MB

[Easy Street]

Madbob,

The story goes that that's exactly what happened on the last-ever Lightning OCU course: the students all got chopped and the instructors took the last few places on the final front-line sqn. I'm sure some WIWOLs can corroborate!

It would be very hard to do such a thing nowadays given the requirement for water-tight chopping paperwork; "face doesn't fit" doesn't cut it anymore and if you meet the course objectives then you pass. Of course, it's subjective as to whether the objectives have been met :)

[Trojan1981]

The name of this thread now refers to the SDSR.

Harriers, chopped!
FAA, chopped!
Nimrods, chopped!
F-35B, chopped!

Dignity, worthwhile career, chopped!

[charliegolf]

Dignity, worthwhile career, chopped!

Society really ought to pull its finger out and provide some dignified and worthwhile careers not linked to aeroplanes. It's a disgrace.

CG

[Agaricus bisporus]

Well, they chopped me!
I bumped through he trainng system and finally succumbed to autopilot (AFCS? What did we call them?) runaways and engine failures while attached to 300ft of cable in a 50' hover in the dark.
The station Chief Iinstructor (if that was what he was called ), the great aforementined T***** L******* was a big softie and genuinely disiked chopping people, so to soften the blow pulled out from behind his desk a sootie glove puppet who waved his wand at me and said in a silly voice, "Shag, you're chopped!" Even than I had to laugh. It was the biggest disaster and the yet biggest relief in my life.

The aftermath was not so pleasant. Chopees weere sent to RNE Seafield Park in Gosport to spend a couple of lonely and miserable days being kept waiting waiting to see (for a whole 15 minutes) the under-employed and grandly named NAAB (Naval Air Advisdory Board) which consisted of two of the most woefully inadequate, disinterested and worthless oxygen thieves the Navy then posessed, LtCdrs Smith and Jones. These two paragons were supposed to assess your training records and determine your further career path, civvy or military, but were incapable of determining anything beyond the earliest moment they could knock off and get to the bar. I recieved nothing worthwhile from them whatsoever. One hardly expects fluffy treatment from the military but the level of help and advice provided to people in that uncomfortable and critical point in their lives was absolutely zero. It was disgraceful that they told me that I'd never again fly for a living though they must have known full well that having Wings I had effectively reached the standard of a CPL; that, after all, was one of the more basic pieces of knowledge required in their job.

Almost 2 years later in one of those impossibly unlikely coincidences I discovered that I had the necessary for a CPL and soon found myself thrungeing around the sky in an antique clockwork mouse (Bell47), a far cry from the lovely sleek and straightforward Gazelle. The mighty Chinook followed, all too briefly and tragically, then almost back to the SeaKing in the S61 and so on through a dozen more types, both rotary and FW.
Nowadays I'm also in that FltLt, GpCapt, AVM position.

Being chopped seemed the worst thing that ever happened at the time, but now it is clear that it was the best thing possible. Pinging isn't much fun I'm told, and there is life, variety and adventure after the chop.

And all achieved without any input whatsoever from the useless, idle tossers at NAAB.

Some 20 years later I wrote a letter to someone in the land of gale force fog and recieved a long, handwritten reply back full of humour, kindness and genuine interest. I will treasure it forever. It was signed Sootie.