Dual nationality and the RAF

[mike172]

Sorry if this has been brought up before but I’m in a bit of a weird situation.

I’m currently three months into an apprenticeship with BAE Systems as a harrier mechanic. I’m at college in Peterborough with the final 12 months of training taking place at RAF Cottesmore itself.

On Wednesday I found out from my boss that due to my dual British/Czech nationality I cannot work on base. I don’t know why it’s taken so long for this to flag up and I can’t see the issue either to be honest but that’s far from the point really.
Apparently the MoD isn’t bothered about the dual nationality, more with the Czech side of it.
I’m going to fight this whole issue and hopefully get something sorted. My boss is in the process of trying to find me another role within the company.

Now, I’ve always wanted to be a pilot and was going to apply as an RAF pilot at some point anyway. I know you can apply with dual nationality but I’m guessing I’d have to go through the same sort of checks as I did with BAE.

So after all of that, do any of you guys know it my nationality would be a problem at all?

Cheers

[Tankertrashnav]

I don't imagine the RAF (or the nation) was worrying too much about the nationality of the 88 Czech aircrew who flew in the Battle of Britain, (or the hundreds more who subsequently served). I have no idea what current policy is, but good luck anyway.

[minigundiplomat]

I'm dual nationality,

never been a problem. Know plenty of others who have never had a problem either. Your primary problem is timing mate.

[mike172]

Timing in what sense, minigundiplomat?

[minigundiplomat]

Most of the flow is about to be through the gate marked out, not the one marked in.

[mike172]

From the RAF, yeah, I thought you were talking about BAE. Though it's the same there as well really.

[Pontius Navigator]

When is the final 12 months due?

You may need a security clearance but that would apply within the company as well as for the MOD. Ask your boss exactly what the problem is and find out whether it is a standard refusal or whether your case has been considered and rejected. If it is a standard refusal, ie the rules state, then ask your boss if he can request an exception.

If your boss says no, then ask if you can make a personal appeal. What you must not do is try on your own behalf and subsequently run to the boss with a piece of paper.

That would be undermining and diminishing your boss who appears to be on your side as it is.

[orca]

BAE aside, it takes about 60 seconds on Ministry of Defence | home (http://www.mod.uk) to find the criteria for joining the crabs, there are numbers to call and a rough timescale for a reply. The site says that there might be issues, but the way forward seems a fairly straightforward one, initially at least.

[vecvechookattack]

Nationality
The nationality requirements for each job are given in each of the job files on this website.

To apply for any RAF job, you must be a citizen of the UK or the Republic of Ireland, or have been a Commonwealth citizen since birth, or hold dual UK/other nationality.

For security reasons, there are stricter nationality requirements for some jobs. For a few, you must have been a UK citizen and UK resident since birth.

[Samuel]

I can recall at least one Kiwi, born and raised, AM Elworthy, who was a post war CAS and CDS.

[mike172]

PN, I finish college in January and then we go to Doncaster for around six weeks so I would be going on base around March time.

It was a standard SC from the MoD, nothing to do with BAE. The problem was with the nationality caveat. My boss didn't have a great deal of information either as the MoD aren't too open about this sort of stuff apparently.

The boss is a decent bloke, I'm confident he's doing all he can to sort it out. So we'll see...

[Hedgeporker]

Ask your boss if he will pay for CTC (Counter Terrorist Check) clearance. It's pricey but shouldn't take long if your past life has been quite straightforward.

Better yet, become a reservist in one of the three services and they'll do it for you. Checks will be carried out for your clearance as soon as you've passed the fitness test and interview, and you can leave - to go regular in your case - whenever it suits you.

If you are cleared as a reservist you will be given an MOD90 ID card, just like any other serviceman/woman which grants you access to any UK military facility.

It sounds to me like some jobsworth is being thick. They allow dual British/Something-Else passport holders to fly the bloody things, so I don't see why they wouldn't let you near one.

[Army Mover]

I also hold dual nationality (UK/US); there was a slight hickup about 6 years into my career when some admin type tried to read to much into what I had declared when I joined up, but once everyone checked, it was never a problem for my 24 years of service.

Best of luck in getting to your aim. :ok:

[Whenurhappy]

In spite of what some of the posts state, dual nationality can be a headache if you need to go for stricter security clearances (and it can be a show stopper). A few years ago I received a peremptory letter from PMA Innsworth advising me of the perils of my 'other' nationality - no/low promotion prospects, no 'working with a coalition partner', 'remuster' to another trade (I had been commissioned for 20 years), and ultimately being released from the Service.

I protested to PMA stating that I had British Nationality and, at the time, I was working for a very senior US diplomat (who thought this whole affair was ridiculous). The civil servant at PMA was adamant and refused to enter into any discussion and would not answer letters. One recorded letter from my solicitor pointing out the tautology of my requirement to 'denouce HM The Queen as Head of State' in order to give up my other Commonweath nationality resolved the issue. I received a gritted-teeth, buttock-clenching appology from PMA, who finished with the words (and veiled threat): 'we have decided not proceed with futher administrative action at this time.' Suffice to say, I've kept copies of all the correspondence - as well as noting the tardiness of the RAF's response. It came in useful during a recent vetting update.

Dual nationalities can be a problem, but it is a matter of education; however for some clearances be under no illusion that a non-Commonwealth citizenship can cause a lot of grief. Alterantively, get employed as an uncleared illegal immigrant security guard at the Home Office or the FCO....

[Pontius Navigator]

Just an idle thought, 'harrier mechanic', there may not be much call for Harrier mechanics come Christmas.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Dual nationalities can be a problem

Agreed. Some of them can be a right embuggerance in every aspect! We should do without their sort. :E

[It's Not Working]

Either:

a. You've got a nice bite there.

or

b. I've just been netted.

[4Foxtrot]

IIRC some RNZAF A4 pilots who came over here a while ago when the communists took over the NZ government (and tried to sell off the RNZAF). The tactics manuals for the RAF jets were all UK Eyes Only and they didn't fancy recinding their NZ nationality so couldn't pass the OCU (or get combat ready) so many of them went home again, which should keep the racists here happy. :}

A degree of pragmatism has now evolved on the matter but you may wish to try this handy application form (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/canijoin/nationalityandresidency.cfm) on the RAF Careers website to see if you meet the nationality requirements. As long as you have a British passport you're probably at least a halfway decent chap...

[ian16th]

I am aware of a case from the 'Cold War' years where a guy was in a ComCen in 2 TAF handling highly classified signals.

He met and married a a girl whose family were refugee's from 'The East'.

He was taken off handling anything sensitive and he says his RAF career was ended.

[Blacksheep]

During The Cold War, when one might assume it was important, I was found to be ineligible for a British passport, and found to my amazement that I did not in fact have dual nationality. I was a citizen of a non-Commonwealth country and not British at all, so, I was taken off Exercise Sunflower because we had to carry a British passport while in transit to Butterworth. Since I couldn't go, I was rostered onto QRA to spend a month nursing the four aircraft there, with their live nuclear weapons.

So, now that The Cold War has ended, why would a dual national citizen of a former ally be considered a security risk so severe that they wouldn't be allowed onto an RAF Station in the course of their duties?

[Mr C Hinecap]

a. You've got a nice bite there.


Correct. Whenurhappy and I go back several years. He is a good bloke when not under investigation for being different! I was waiting for his return to this thread, but he must have some important coffee to drink. Until then, I'll set my lines for another nibble from another wee fishy.

[Xercules]

This may not be a security issue at all. The UK forces are not constrained in the same way as civilian contractors being able to claim that they work under UK sovereignty. Civilian firms, however, have to pay considerably more than lip service to export control regulations especially if any US military technology is involved. (Witness BAes current problems with its US subsidiary).

All US military hardware and the technology (data/information) that goes with it are exported under the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR). When granting licences, the US Dept of State will specify what nationalities may have access to that information. If yours is not on the approved list - no deal.

There have been some recent changes and you should ask if ITAR is involved and do not the licences specify the 126.1 countries (this means all NATO and EU members and some "like minded" others - Australia, NZ, Japan, Switzerland...). That alone might solve the problem but I would not hold my breath.

[Whenurhappy]

Chinecap - Hook, line and sinker! In my current appointment a question was asked of me yesterday by a U S Special Agent about who I really was...well, I think you can imagine the response!