Help! Son wants to be a pilot.

[Flyingmama]

Hi. Firstly, Please excuse my complete lack of knowledge. My son has wanted to be a pilot since he was 5, he is now 15 and starting to look more seriously at his options. I have made a few enquiries because I like to interfere and I don't want him to end up with a mountain of debt particularly if he's chosen the wrong route. My husband and I would like to help but we aren't millionaires. I have tried to perhaps steer him in a slightly different direction because of the cost of the training but he's not falling for it :rolleyes:

I have been told that his options would be limited if he went the modular route and that qualified pilots are having to pay for more training just to get a job!

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance.

[Whirlygig]

I have been told that his options would be limited if he went the modular route
You've been told wrong!
and that qualified pilots are having to pay for more training just to get a job!
You've been told right!

Cheers

Whirls

[doubleu-anker]

Wants to be a pilot does he? Yes you are in trouble madam. Try not steer him away from it, as he may get worse. Try and encourage him a little then try and get someone to show you and him, the results of the broken dreams, the carnage, the broken marriages. Women just dont understand aviation! Etc., etc.

In all seriousness the greatest asset he can have is the drive and determination. If he has that he will get there, one way or other. Good fun for a while but if he is after money he wont make a lot but it beats working for a living

Tell him to stay at school and further his eduction, then have a go at the military route. If he dont make it there, take the other route of course.

[Nearly There]

My advice as he is still only 15 would to be start the PPL course and continue schooling, he might not enjoy flying and at least you can find out yes or no whilst still at school. If he enjoys it, he will have the first part of course out the way and can continue building hours and experience whilst still in education, he can then look at what options are open to him further down the line, sponsorships or mentored schemes may be available again at that time.

I see your in Hampshire, there are a number of schools at Bournemouth Airport that might be worth a visit.

Bournemouth Commercial Flight Training. Commercial flight training in the UK. CPL, ATPL, Ground School, Flying Instructor and Examiner courses. (http://www.bcft.org.uk/)

EPTA (http://www.flyepta.com/)

Professional Air Training: Professional flight training school (http://www.pat.uk.com/index.html)

[The Old Fat One]

Before you get into the nitty gritty of choosing training routes and flight schools (and therefore commiting yourself to a lot of expenditure) I would first substantiate a couple of things.

What has he done so far in the way of following his dream? Is he an air cadet? Has he studied aviation in any meaningful way? Has he any work expereince in the field? Any trial lessons, or visits to flying schools?

Has he had any aptitude tests? If not GAPAN (just google GAPAN) might be able to help you out with an aptitude test and they do scholarships as well, so a good contact to make in any event.

Whether or not any of that applies, I would kick off with a five hour starter pack, which any good school should offer at a reasonable price. This is long enough to get an idea of what training will involve, but won't cost you an arm and a leg if things don't work out.

Don't be afraid to set the agenda when you are negotiationg your requirements with a flying school - it's a buyers market.

[99jolegg]

Flyingmama,

A similar question was asked recently and this response below from Bealzebub is informative.

Hello Ian,

I will try and give you a qualified answer, speaking as a parent (like yourself) of a son who is going through commercial flight training. I also have 30 years experience as an airline pilot, and have spent over 10 years flying with pilots who have come through some of these programmes.

The aptitude tests are designed to assess "basic" aptitude. In themselves they are no guarantee of success, but are used to weed out weaker applicants, and where there is a competition element for a limited number of places, they are a tool in arriving at a decision. They are certainly no guarantee of future success and shouldn't be viewed as such. Normally these tests are used in conjunction with personality assessments by way of group exercises and interviews. The hand/eye co-ordination tests are usually run such that they hopefully show an improvement in the learning curve, either as the test is being conducted or as it is repeated.

All of these flight training establishments are commercial enterprises. As such (and like any other commercial business) they only survive by making a profit. In turn that only happens if they continue to entice customers through the door. You only have to look at the advertisements that pop up on websites such as this one and elsewhere, to realize that there is a need to advertise their products and services. Having said that, I am in no way suggesting that the fact that competition in a very difficult marketplace makes these companies necessary lacking in some way.

Whilst I completely understand your question and concern, I would say that it would be better to move the focus. When looking at these training establishments, give serious consideration to who their customers are. For example are they simply selling their product to potential trainees (and their backers,) or do they also have corporate customers who buy their product?
In the case of the latter, they need to ensure that the product they sell is something that the corporate customer is happy to buy. In other words their survival is to some considerable extent dependent on their reputation within the wider industry, rather than simply enticing the naive and hopeful with glossy pictures of airliners.

There is a broad range of providers out there, and they tend to fall into 3 distinct categories:

Firstly, there are the established training schools who have recognised programmes and a history of airline partnerships. These schools are usually expensive but have a track record of achievement that you can use as the basis for making your own decision. In many cases they have good associations with airline companies who may from time to time be looking to recruit cadet pilots. That said there is absolutely no guarantee of such a placement, and in recent years such placements have been at best, very thin on the ground.

Secondly, there are the "Florida farms" many of which are probably undeserving of such a label, and many of which are outside the state of Florida. These are training establishments that usually offer a cut price route to a licence by utilising the lower cost base in a particular country to compete on a price sticker for a product. Many pilots have achieved their ambition through these establishments by utilising them as a module or stepping stone to achieve various licences, ratings and experience. Many are good in that they provide what they say on the tin, but conversely they often seem to attract the most criticism by a combination of sometimes poor service and unrealistic marketing, coupled with their ability to also attract people with unrealistic expectations.

Thirdly, There are the "Puddlewick-in-the-marsh" establishments, that were a flying club last year, but have now branched out into offering an "ATPL" ground school and flight training on their under-utilized fleet of club aircraft (and a twin!) Again, used with realistic expectations, these training schools may tick all the right boxes for somebody who is using them to achieve a modular progression towards the requisite licences.

The problem comes in the frequent merging of the distinction between these various groups. If the end product is a young aspiring pilot with a fresh CPL/IR and 200 odd hours who believes that airlines will be clamouring to employ them for their enthusiasm and skill, they are more likely to be disappointed in the case of the last two. That is not to say they are necessarily any more likely to be snapped up in the first group, however those airlines that do offer cadet programmes, tend to recruit a product that they have some input and involvment with. Indeed for an airline looking to recruit anybody at this level of experience, it is virtually a prerequisite.

There is no doubt that this a serious level of investment and commitment. I would have to say that in all honesty if you are providing the finance, you should accept that at this point there is a reasonable risk that you should be prepared to have to write off any expectation of seeing it returned. In any event you should most definetaly be prepared for a significant delay in any return upon completion.

In summary the market is very weak. Competition is intense and expectations are often wholly unrealistic. That said, if you go in with your eyes open and don't place yourself in any financial jeopardy as a result of what might not happen, then it is really a case of seeking out a method and route that you are both happy with.

Hope that helps a little?

This is the thread that the above extract came from: http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/424630-independant-pilot-aptitude-tests.html

The following suggestion (in that thread) from Redsnail is also a good one. The Class 1 medical is another important step that I'm not sure has been mentioned.

Initial JAR Class 1 (Professional Pilot) Medical Examination | Medical | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=527)

The price can be found on the website above; expensive but necessary.

[B767PL]

I will refrain from giving advice on the topic, as my own personal biases and experiences may and will not apply to others situations, including your sons future.

But, I will say it is a very difficult industry, and flying, is only a small part of being an airline pilot. An airline pilot is not only a career, it is a lifestyle. Not always an easy one. Not always a well paying one. And not always a rewarding one. There are plenty of examples of people out there who have sacrificed so much, and got very little in return. While on the other hand there are those who were at the right place, at the right time, and couldnt be happier. No telling where who will end up. Somewhat of a lottery, draw a number.

Of course there is other type of flying then airline flying as well, for example corporate. But that is the most popular route.

It isnt like you see it in the movies, with layovers in exotic locations, huge salaries, half the month off, surrounded by beautiful flight attendants (well not for the most part, anyways).. So if he does go through with it, he has to be in it for the airplanes, and for the flying, or he will be disappointed.

But even with everything that is wrong with the industry, I would still do it again.

The flying is great, the industry sucks.

[Jerry Lee]

Integrated = waste of money and Soviet Union
Modular = cheaper and freedom

So Flyingmama, I'd suggest you to send your son in USA in a good flying school like Skymates (the cheapest but at the same level of the others!), Flight Safety Academy, European Flight Training, or whichever school in USA, then become a Flight Instructor to start to work flying, to make experience and to gain a bit of money, or he could also go in Africa and make some Bush Flying experience, a well known route.

For the moment he has only to study hard at school, and after graduated he could try to apply for a cadet program like the Cathay Pacific's one.

[poina]

Mama,
I had a girlfriend who once told me "you never go to work", you always say "sorry, I can't cause tomorrow I have to fly".
As doubleu-anker says, drive and determination is what counts and that should never be discouraged in any endeavor.
By far the cheapest and perhaps the easiest place to do this is the U.S. I'm not saying the best but one can maybe move into an instructor position to really learn and build time.
Baring a depression and complete implosion of air travel, demographically the future looks bright as the majority of people on these boards will have retired.
Take a look at www.airlinepilotcentral.com and see what the retirement rates are for the major U.S. carriers which most likely mirror global rates.
By the way, I have a daughter the same age who wants to do the same, I give her the same advice.

[jez d]

Apologies for the length of this post.

It's all about timing. Global airline growth combined with pilot retirements predict a demand of 17,000 pilots per year for the next 20 years. The current situation, however, is dire.

The pool of unemployed pilots continues to build, meaning that when airlines do start to recruit in earnest once again, it will be sometime until the pool is diminished to the extent that a graduate fresh out of flight school can be confident is securing a job within a short timeframe. When doing your sums therefore, you must take into account the fact that your son, once graduated, could be without a job for quite a period of time.

Integrated or modular?

In the current environment, neither route will make your son more employable, for the simple reason that if he were to graduate tomorrow then his chances of securing a job would be minimal, to put it lightly.

Integrated has the advantage of being a fast-track training route (approx 18 months) and airlines like integrated graduates given they can be assured of a consistency of training. That is why certain airlines, such as BA, will publicly state that they only employ low hours (graduate) pilots off integrated courses following recommendation from schools. This is indeed the case in times when the pool of pilots seeking work is over-flowing (such as now). However, in times of high demand and low supply, the training route becomes a moot point, and airlines will recruit graduates irrespective of the training route they have chosen.

Integrated has the distinct disadvantage of being more expensive than modular, primarily because a lump sum will have to be paid up front, and so unless you have the cash to hand expect to pay as much as £20,000 interest on bank loans. The total cost from zero experiene to an airline job on an integrated training route in the UK has been put at £130,000 currently, which I will breakdown shortly.

Meantime, the modular route is much cheaper, as one can pick and choose the cheapest schools and train at a rate that finances allow - meaning hefty interest payments can be avoided. The traditional way of doing this is to start with a PPL, then hours build before becoming CPL rated. Following a CPL, many students become instructors in order to avoid having to pay to accrue minimum flight hours experience, before progressing to the instrument rating and MCC. This route traditionally takes anything between 2-3 years.

The gotchas for the modular training route are: First, airlines, in times of low demand, may prefer to look at integrated low hours graduates in preference to low hours modular graduates. This is a contentious subject however and many will disagree. The second potential pitfall concerns the training. Airlines want to see that a pilot has received a consistent level of training, meaning that if you spread your training out between too many budget schools, both in the US and at home, then they will question the standard to which you will have been trained. As with anything in this world, you get what you pay for. It is essential therefore that you research schools thoroughly before signing up to them. This means visiting the schools, talking to the instructors, as well as the slick sales staff, and most importantly, speaking with the students. You should also be extremely careful about paying money up front as unfortunately it is all too common for the smaller flight schools to fail, leaving you stranded and out of pocket in the process – there are a myriad of threads on pprune that will attest to this. Airlines will tend to recommend that the bulk of the training isn't spread out over more than two schools (ignoring PPL).

Now for the £130,000 integrated training price breakdown:

£66,000 school training fees

£6,000 CAA exam and flight test fees

£8,000 living and accommodation costs

£30,000 aircraft type rating

£20,000 loan interest payments

If your son is planning on attending university first, then you may want to factor in £10,000 - £20,000 of university debts as well.


Will your son have to pay for a Type Rating?


Thanks to the avaricious nature of low cost carrier’s HR departments, which are currently being run as profit making centres, the answer is likely to be yes.


How can he avoid having to pay for a Type Rating?


If your son decides that an integrated course is the right option for him, then I would recommend very strongly that he tries to get himself on a mentored scheme. These training schemes are ones where an airline will pre-select a student before they start training. They then mentor them through their training before employing them on graduation. They often include a small amount of funding assistance, although not always, and on most occasions the airline will pay for the type rating, although they will likely bond the pilot to the company for a minimum period of time to offset the risk that the pilot will decamp somewhere else once rated.


What next?

As your son is only 15, I suggest that he does as much as possible over the next few years to increase his knowledge of the world of aviation. Not only will it give him a better grounding in what to expect from a career in aviation – and remember, there are plenty of other jobs in aviation which don’t involve airlines – but it will also demonstrate to his future employers that he has the right level of enthusiasm and drive.

Get him to join a local flying or gliding club. Get a weekend job cleaning aircraft. Join the Air Cadets.

Most importantly, contact the Guild of Air Pilot & Navigators (GAPAN), the Royal Aeronautical Society (RAeS), the British Gliding Association (BGA), the Light Aircraft Association (LAA), the British Microlight Aircraft Association (BMAA), and the Air League, and learn as much as you can about the large number of sponsorships and scholarships available to dedicated and enthusiastic youngsters in the UK.

Best of luck!

jez

[charliegolf]

All of the above suggests (and I agree) that training now is a gamble. The advice all gamblers hate, but it's good, is 'Only gamble what you can afford to lose'. Can you/he afford it?

The other thing that you get a sense of on here is that it's money wasted. The alternative view is that you get a lot for your dosh: all that training and a little experience as well. I think you are entitled to a licence for the money you spend, not a job. Others moan a lot.

Just my pitch.

CG

[Bruce Wayne]

Help! Son wants to be a pilot.
Hi. Firstly, Please excuse my complete lack of knowledge. My son has wanted to be a pilot since he was 5, he is now 15 and starting to look more seriously at his options.


Any advice would be gratefully received.



Have you considered smothering him in his sleep ? :hmm:

[doubleu-anker]

Nice one Bruce!! :D

Worth remembering, the boom and bust cycle. The bust is still with us. The cycle from memory is about 8 years.

Apart from natural attrition, during bust a lot of prospective trainees will shy away from aviation. will will hear "Why train when there are no jobs?" I think that is wrong advise. By the time one begins training, on average it is three? years before they are fully licensed. I think the boom will come. 3 years maybe more until it is with us.

[Farrell]

You will get lots of different opinions on this.

First of all - he needs to find out if flying is really for him.
That means a few hours instruction at the local flight school.

To be honest, there is no real point in getting him started on a PPL at 15.
My advice would be to keep him in school but keep him focused with the odd hour up in the air.

You would be amazed the amount of kids who actually get into a plane and realise that it is not what they imagined it would be.

After his schooling, then you can start looking at doing things step-by-step.

But remember: it all initially boils down to being able to get a Class 1 medical.
If he can't get that......the dream could well be over.

Farrell

[DaedalusX]

Be ready to get an earful of BS when shopping flight schools.

"Experts anticipate a shortage of pilot in 3 years in the industry" - Been hearing that since 2003. The last pilot shortage in the industry was in the summer of 1940.

"We have 90%, 95%, 100% student placement." - Rampie for 3 years at Buffalo doesn't count as 'placement' in my opinion.

"You'll have to pay your type-rating if you want your first job." - That might be true, but it's still 100% BS.

The good news is, it's still very possible to make it if he really wants it. There is also the military option.

[bArt2]

The last pilot shortage in the industry was in the summer of 1940

LoL :}:}:}

[Bruce Wayne]

flying mom,

if euthanasia isn't option for you, there are couple of points to consider...

your son is 15, by the time he hits 18 and experienced the delights of the opposite sex*, cars, etc the game plan could well have changed. there is hope for you !

however, in the event that his head is not turned by the fairer sex, job prospects that offer financial reward, stability and security you will have your work cut out, so will he.

at the age he is there is still opportunity to gain advantage, physics and mathematics will be of key importance right now as the career does use these subjects considerably (unfortunately second guessing JAA/EASA/ What it will be in future is not an academic subject).

has he looked at the air cadets ? at his age that may be a good start.

also, in all honesty any medical conditions that could preclude a class 1 medical ? eyesight problems, balance problems, any family history of psychosis etc etc.

before you go even thinking about blowing a large amount of money on pursuing a career for him you want to be sure he is going to be able to get a medical and have the academic base to deal with the subject matter and study.

don't push him away from it as DU suggested but be supportive as well as honestly practical about the reality. there are many people that have dropped away from completing their professional licenses, through medical or personal problems, many who have attained them but not found the openings to allow them to pursue the application of their license and many that have gone on to enjoy a good career in the industry.



* in order to be PC compliant the reader is free to substitute 'female', with 'male' or 'trans-gender' or 'Cherie Blair' as applicable.

[MagicTiger]

Make it easy and simple in the start, let him have a class 1 medical, do a PPL - and if still motivated start the ATPL's.

This will not set you back the world, but if he finishes the above, you can start to worry, then you know if he is really motivated. Do modular, forget integrated at the moment, unless you don't mind blowing an extra £40.000.

He is young, and time for a few up and down cycles, and should get the "dream job" in the end.

Do modular, make him get instructor rating, and work himself slowly up the ladder, by his mid 30's he should be well established.
But first do the basics, might be dead in the water already then, class 1 + medical, and do the 14 ATPL ground school exams, won't cost you more than £8000 - £10000.

[FR8R H8R]

Who knows, by the time the kid gets his ratings, things may have turned around. However, I still wouldn't recommend this as a career.

Best of luck to the parents of the intrepid youngster.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Flyingmama - the kid is 15.

All the advice you read here won't count for diddley squat in 2 years when he's finished school, if he graduates and the world is in the middle of another financial crisis or middle east war, and airlines are failing like flies and pilots are on dole queues everywhere, then obviously attending flying school would be foolhardy in the extreme. First rule of pilot training - timing is everything.

Trust me he DOES need to finish school, with the best grades he can. Obviously the most relevant school subjects are the maths and science ones but it's more important to get good grades in whatever he studies.

(Here's a good idea - get him to study GCSE economics, and then get him to write an essay for YOU as his primary financial backer, detailing his training budget, future earnings and cashflow projections as an airline pilot. Including the scenarios of doing it at a flash integrated school, doing it the small-school modular way, gaining experience via instructing, buying type ratings, etc etc. If that doesn't scare him off nothing will :D:D:D )

At the end of school, he's likely to be 17 or 18. Let me tell you a little secret - the travelling public doesn't actually like seeing spotty teenage adolescents flying their airliners. In my opinion (as a fairly-senior flying instructor), the failure rate of kids in that age group is much higher than those who are a couple years older or in their early 20s.

So, let him go and get a JOB for two or three years. And let him spend his savings, on doing his PPL while he's working and saving that money. It doesn't have to be a career thing, but if he can get aviation industry related work whether it's sweeping hangar floors or even loading bags or something, it's surprising how many useful connections are possible to be made. (Best job of all = pouring pints at some airfield bar where all the airline captains drink at weekends. Guaranteed to make loads of friends in high places and get more advice about the industry than he knows what to do with. It's also sometimes possible for youngsters to work on an ops desk at an aero club, in exchange for free or heavily discounted flying hours.)

As the previous poster "magictiger" suggested, it's possible to knock out the horrible ATPL theory subjects during that time as well, although you really do need to have a PPL first before you try to tackle that lot or it's too much like a foreign language. And of course, if there's options to apply for sponsorships etc during that time, go for it.

After that, your son will find himself in the enviable position of being hopefully 20-21, with maybe a PPL and a hundred hours or so of flying time which HE'S PAID FOR, he's halfway to a CPL, he will have no horrible debts, and have a lot more knowledge of his chosen profession, and the world really will be his oyster. (He will also hopefully have a trade skill that he can fall back on, if it all turns to rats while he's pilot job hunting). If he still wants to be an airline pilot at that stage, then he's proven his commitment sufficiently, that I would suggest that you as a parent can have a lot more confidence in helping him out with loan securities or whatever it is he needs to finish the job.

(As a side not - a lot of crap gets talked on this forum, about applying for the military as a way to get into the cockpit of an airliner, and it's all just that, crap. The people who successfully join the air force are the ones who've been living and breathing and committing their whole lives to being air force pilots from a very young age. The assessors can spot a wannabe-airline-pilot from a million miles away and give them very short shrift.)

It's a hell of a commitment for any parent and if you don't know aviation, it seems like a very confusing and difficult world to plunge into and do the research sometimes. You have, however, found the very best resource in the world right here on this very internet forum, please keep us posted and don't be afraid to ask even the stupidest sounding questions here :)

[doubleu-anker]

Luke SkyToddler

I dont recall Mum specifying he wanted be an airline pilot.

You may not have noticed the military operate all sorts of aircraft. They need pilots to fly these aircraft so the military pay young people to fly these aircraft and spend a lot of tax payers money on teaching them to fly. So why would that not be an option?

Every heard of corporate flying. Flying a private aircraft, doing less than 200 hours per year and good if not better pay than an "airline pilot." Not everyone wants to be an airline pilot, flying around fatigued and showing the symptoms of burn out etc.

There is a world outside airline flying. Airline flying is not the be all to end all. Been there dont that.

[Luke SkyToddler]

RTFQ yourself ... the woman is making references to things like "the modular route" and wishing to avoid "a mountain of debt" and "having to pay for more training just to get a job". Now excuse me for thinking that little Johny might be researching civilian as opposed to military options, since last I heard HM forces still weren't charging for their training.

And with regard to corporate flying, yes strangely enough I've heard of it, since my wife used to fly corporate for a living until the kids came along. I can't see how that makes my advice with regard to a 15-year-old looking into professional licence training, any less relevant. It's exactly the same licence is it not. In fact, if the travelling public don't like to see spotty fresh-out-of-flying-school 18 year olds flying their airliners, the millionaires of this world like it even less when they're flying their Gulfstreams and Citations. It's typically a career path that gets pursued once a bit of experience has been gained in other areas as you are no doubt already aware.

[doubleu-anker]

Correct.

When I began learning,(haven't stopped) there was no"modular" or "integrated" routes that I knew of. The self improver route was an option. However that has now been destroyed along with almost everything else the the JAA/EASA have got their hands on. Come back the UK CAA, all is forgiven!

The weeding out process should be done at employer level, not at the licencing stage. The FAA have it about right, or a damned sight better than the clowns in Europe. It has now become in many cases, who has or can get their hands on the most money. Like the process in a Banana republic, who has the most clout/money that gets the job. This is not necessarily the guarantee of selection of the best person for the job. Many young people have been turned off and away from pursuing a career in aviation in Europe for that very reason. Of course this is all in the name of "progress" and "worlds best practice".


The advice about getting a foot in the door is very good, getting a job, cleaning a/c, loading aircraft etc., being around people that are in the business. We all learn a lot from this site, from others.

It is difficult for the youngsters today, in any line of work or business but it still it can be done.

I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to follow and aviation career, for a job alone. It really has to be a "calling". There is no real enjoyment in the job anymore as far as I am concerned. Even flying for recreation or as a hobby, they have done their best to destroy. Admittedly there has been some progress as far as "deregulation" is concerned on aircraft, below certain weights.

[152wiseguy]

10 out of 10 for Luke's advice. Get little Johnny to do some of the leg work first. If he can get his private pilots license over the next few years without resorting to his parents cheque book, then it will probably be a good bet to fund the rest of his flying training.

As a start, next year he will be able to apply for a flying scholarship.

Air Cadets - Flying scholarships (http://www.raf.mod.uk/aircadets/whatwedo/flyingscholarships.cfm)

Scholarships (http://www.airleague.co.uk/scholarships/)

Flying Scholarships 2010 - GAPAN (http://www.gapan.org/career-matters/scholarships/)

Even if he is not successful in getting Betty to pay for a few hours of his training, the aptitude tests that he will complete will give a good idea of his potential to pass the course.

Good luck

[drumaster]

Hi,

I have just registered on this forum to get some advice for my 18 year old son who also wants to go into commercial aviation.I think this thread seems to cover most of my questions and concerns and has been helpful.

To date he has passed the pilot assesment at Cabair and Bucks Uni but the degree course [atpl and a degree in aviation] has been pulled for some reason, so that leaves the integrated route. Cabair are currently saying this is the only route for the serious pilot as airlines are only hiring from intergrated courses...but don't they also do modular at their Bournemouth site? Should we also be looking at modular training and would the combined degree/atpl course be of much use to enhance a cv for job application?

He has a medical at Gatwick booked soon but only a handful of flight hours and none towards a PPl.

As a family we have agreed a 'loan' for the £60,000 to get him started but reading your posts has made me think twice..
1. mainly about his young age
2. making this too easy for him,
3. the pitfalls of job prospects post training
4. and so far we have only really been in touch with Cabair. who else are the main reputable player we should be considering? [don't want to start a mine is better than yours argument here !]

Any comments gratefully received because we have some big family discussions ahead :rolleyes:and some decisions to make!

[stevop21]

I would think twice before spending that amount of money... Does he have a backup plan if everything goes wrong? Also I would be asking myself 'If my 18 year old son is making mummy do the research for him, is he really ready for an airline pilot career?' Sorry if it seemed rude but it was a thought that occured to me...

I would see if he can get a PPL, there are a few scholarships/bursaries around also as someone else said on here if he could hang around at the local airfield loading/cleaning planes etc... This would prove very useful as contacts in the aviation industry are very important. Other FTOs (flight schools) for his CPL include, FTE Jerez, CTC, PTC Ireland, OAA. Just to name a few and there will be a lot in other countries. I would recommend doing a lot of research as to what happens afterwards his course has complete. E.g will he be required to self fund a typerating, in exchange for some ****ty contract? Lots of threads on these forums about this

I would recommend visiting the 'Flyer Exhibiton' at Heathrow Airport on the 6th November where schools will be exhibiting and you can attend talks about career choices. It is an very informative event EXHIBITIONS (http://exhibitions.flyer.co.uk/exhibitions.htm)

As for the CPL a thing certainly worth giving a shot is the Cathay Pacific cadet scheme. Very fierce competition but what has he got to lose by applying? Cathay Pacific - Careers : Careers Home (http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_INTL/careers/student/cadetpilot_programme)

A forum thread about it here at pprune http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour-wannabes/378978-cathay-pacific-cadet-pilot-programme-69.html#post5931120

Good luck!

[clunckdriver]

Drummaster, Im most likely the only poster on this site who has hired many, many pilots, so take what I say and digest it! {1} The last time there was a real pilot shortage was Sept 1940!{2} Cabair and other "Puppy Farms" are full of it, having been burned by grads from such schools { most of them couldnt fly or think worth a damn} I restricted my selection to kids who had done their time flying floats/bush/charter / instructing and had paid their dues and developed needed skills,all turned out just fine. {3} A pilot does not need a degree, as long as he/she can count to 360 that will do it. {4} The pay scales and working conditions these days are dismal, it will take an end to "Pay to fly" and Multi crew lics to rebuild both the pay and the status of the job, the ONLY thing which can achieve this is tough unions, {You might find this strange comming from one who has been the boss for most of my life}{5} Tell the kid to become a dentist/doctor/plumber or whatever, then he will have enough $ to buy his own aircraft and fly for fun! Sorry to be so blunt but each day I get CVs from good kids who have been duped/lied to and generally jerked around, most are from the EU and have been fed the line that the training in the EU is so great that we in the "Empire" just cant wait to hire them, belive me it just aint so! PM me if you want more grim news, Regards, Clunck.

[Bealzebub]

Hi drumaster,

It is a lot of money and I applaud your research. As you already know there is no easy answer, and as with so many other things it still boils done to an assesment of risk.

Firstly and before you do anything else have him complete the class 1 medical that you have already booked. Rather like a home survey or a boat survey, you need to write off this relatively minor sum before you start to commit to the big bucks.

As cabair are a seller of these products, you are right to be a little sceptical concerning the impartiality of the information they use to promote a particular product even though that doesn't necessarily mean it is erroneous or intended to mislead. I would certainly disagree with the suggestion that integrated courses are the only route for the serious pilot. There are a huge number of very serious and commited pilots who have and will achieve their goals via the modular route, so that is nonsense. However where I do agree, is that where airlines look for Cadet pilots (and by that I am referring to very low hour / ab-initio recruits,) they nearly always do so in conjunction with an integrated programme of training through a recognised and affilated training establishment.

In the UK the three main players in this arena are: CTC; Oxford and FTE. Most airline /cadet programmes are affilated to one of these establishments. Despite that, there has been very little uptake in the last few years even from these programmes, so it is most certainly not a "guarantee" of anything.

I am not sure if your discussions surrounding a loan of £60,000 are part of a larger package involving savings, earnings or some other monetary tool, but I should point out at onset, that these programmes will all likely involve a basic investment of around 50% more than that figure.

Modular training is likely to be significantly cheaper, but it should be understood that it depends on how you view the end goal and the methodology of achieving it. This type of training allows you to buy the various modules at whichever training establishments you please. It allows for more flexibility in not just cost, but also in time. For that reason it can be used by people to hold down other employment as a means of contributory financing. Many people will advocate this method as being the only common sense option. In part I would agree that if there is little prospect of gainful employment at the point of licence aquisition, then they are probably correct. However many people also erroneously believe that a commercial licence and 200 odd hours is simply all you need for airlines to be clamouring to employ them. They are wrong. It isn't, and never has been.

Airlines have traditionally recruited experienced co-pilots who have acquired that experience from a variety if time served backgrounds. They include ex-military pilots and what were termed "self improvers" that is pilots who had acquired their licences and then worked there way up through general aviation and entry level commercial aviation jobs, to eventually have the hours and experience that the glossy end of the market was looking for. Together with this, a few airlines would also select a limited number of recommended pilots from a few "approved" training establishments as cadet entry pilots.

Over the last decade and a half, many factors have combined to bring about changes in the way this type of employment has evolved. The rapid expansion of what is termed "lo-cost" carriers has seen a desire to eliminate all extraneous and undesirable cost elements from the operation. Without doubt (and at least one CEO makes no secret of it,) if they could completely eliminate the co-pilots seat they would do it in a heartbeat. They can't, so they look for the next best thing, which is how to reduce that cost. The answer has been to stop taking on the previous experience they demanded, and replace it with more of the much cheaper and extraordinarily plentiful supply of pilots who are prepared to finance themselves into that seat. So successful has this been, that in some companies it has spawned a secondary business in itself.

Changes, and significant increases in the retirement age has also taken the pressure off the left seat for many airlines. Captains who once might have retired at 55, can now work on to 65 with even less restriction likely in the future. Reductions in terms and conditions, as well as the deteriorating prospects for pension income and indeed the whole pension industry, has also combined to ensure that many captains have and will continue to work well beyond their planned retirement. This consequential lack of movement has served to remove the imperitive need to have a good experience base in the right hand seat from which to promote, and has allowed an expansion of the whole "pay to fly" environment, in all its variations, to thrive.

Despite that, many airlines are still wary of the need to carefully monitor the training background, personality and aptitude of those cadets they do employ. This is undoubtably much more difficult when it involves modular applicants, and for those reasons most schemes will be tied to integrated programmes from the recognised training providers.

To some extent this is no different than it ever used to be. Integrated students at the approved schools (of which there were few) came out with a licence and around 250 hours. "Self improvers" would require at least 700 hours for a commercial licence, however they could work as instructors on their Private pilots licenses (with the necessary ratings) as part of their career path if they so chose. Harmonisation changes resulted in this option being eliminated some years back, to bring the UK into line with other national authorities. As part of these changes the modular system was formalized and the hour requirement dropped in order to make the aerial work opportunites (such as flight instruction) more in line to that that had existed previously. The confusion often comes in the supposition that this large reduction in flight time experience was something that the airlines would simply ignore, they didn't.

I have gone on at length to give something of a background to where we are today. So now to give you my opinion based on the questions you asked:

I dont think his age (18) is an issue of any importance provided it is a career he is absolutely committed to.

Making it too easy for him? Well I know where you are coming from but only you and him can decide that. It will be very difficult and very frustrating based on most peoples experience. You should also appreciate that the attrition rate is also very high. However easy you might make it, the system won't. I would say that there is no great imperative, and perhaps the smaller investment of PPL training would help to either Crystalize a commitment or not. It would represent about 10% of the investment you are proposing, but in so much as the intregrated (not necessarily the modular) courses are concerned, would represent additional cost.

The pitfalls of the job prospects, are a very valid concern. Without repeating much of what I already said, airline jobs are very few and far between. Those that are available tend to be filled at this saturated end of the market from cadet affiliation schemes, or other "pay to train" schemes that do not usually promise much security of tenure. The entry level commercial jobs are also in very short supply and are keenly fought over. Things are likely to improve as they cyclically do, but the idea that there will ever be a shortage of airline pilots at the 200 hour level is simply a delusion. If fast track airline flying is the goal, then my money would be on a cadet scheme through one of the main players in this market, even though that comes with no guarantees and considerable financial risk.

I would get information from the main players in this market, CTC, Oxford and FTE. Also I would get information from other schools and providers. Read these forums, ask questions and then comes the difficult bit. It would be idiotic of me to suggest that with all this information and advice you can arrrive at a correct decision. All those emotional human traits and factors will still be a part of the mix. Just like you, I know that no matter how much information, advice and attitude to risk I arm myself with, I will still keep my fingers crossed that it all works out for the children we "invest" in. Luck still plays a huge part.

Finally I am not sure about these "degree/atpl" courses. On the one hand I would advocate any advance in educational achievment as being only a positive thing, and I would never discourage somebody from putting a degree forward as a priority. However I am not sure these types of degree are sufficiently meaningful in selecting a course provider? Personally I wouldn't let it sway the decision, but in truth I do not know enough about them to advise one way or the other, or to offer any meaningful input.

I throw this into the pot with the rider that you should keep investigating and if you have more questions (and you will) ask away.

Good luck!

[Bealzebub]

'If my 18 year old son is making mummy do the research for him, is he really ready for an airline pilot career?'

That is rather an assumption isn't it? How do you know the parent isn't the sons father? In any event, the questioner uses the term "we" which would suggest if it weren't already clearly stated, that more than one person is seeking answers to the questions posed.

It strikes me as eminently sensible that parents would want to use available resources to ask questions, before they as a family decide to embark on any particular course of action. Indeed when it comes to the qualities inherently desirable in an airline pilot, not getting trapped into one assumption and the use of available resources to aid in decision making are quite positive, don't you think?

[drumaster]

Firstly, thanks to all of you for your valuable contributions: to clear up a few things, I am the father and found this website in pilot magazine whilst looking for more material. The son has done much of his own research but natually reports his results back to us with rose coloured spectacles, hence my own research for confirmation.

We are not a rich family [a career in UK military gurantees that!] but through house equity we can fund the 60k without much lifestyle change but only if all the ducks line up in a row. It seems still not to be enough given that he may also have to fund a type rating to even get a job with a budget airline.

From all your combined great advice and experience, the thing that does concern me the most is the post training gamble on getting a job in aviation. He is a good kid who is actually deserving of the support we can offer him but I don't want to set him up to fail at the first fence ie the system as it is, so we [the family] will all read this thread today before we sit down for a discussion later.

Thanks again for all your invaluable help!
Brian Short

[SloppyJoe]

It is a hard industry to get into and the way it is going means that those who can throw the most money at it get ahead. By get ahead I mean get a job in the end, have met people who have spent 100,000 pounds + doing their ratings, type ratings etc and landed a job with someone like wizz air, this pays peanuts so will take a long time to, in fact an eternity to ever get ahead financially and will most likely produce more debt whilst working. The reason people do this is so they can gain valuable experience in larger jets and eventually move onto a better airline where they can start earning and paying back the money used for training. It is rare that once you get the basic FATPL that it is the end of the spending and the start of making a return, it is more often than not just the beginning of the nightmare that is usually the case with this job.

I am not sure if you have considered this but it is worth thinking about. If you are using equity in your home to fund this I assume that it will not be a case of just being able to keep throwing money at it till it works. I went this route and 10 years after starting my training am working for a major airline earning a descent amount, got a job 6 months after finishing, flying skydivers in a single engine piston aircraft and then kept moving up the ladder onto twins, turboprops, and now an A340. This route took me all over the world, north africa, scandanavia, central asia, asia, but I got there in the end and never had to spend anything on training after my initial licensing. It is hard but if as you say he has determination and drive he has a good chance of getting there in the end. If all he wants to do is fly an airliner then this is not the way to go but if he has wanted this since he was 5 then he should be willing to do it the hard way that does not require throwing more and more money after it.

I did my training in the US and it works out a lot cheaper.

Ballard Aviation, Inc. - Flight Training, Pilot Supplies and Aircraft Rentals (http://www.ballardaviationinc.com/rates.html)

No I do not work for them but shows you how much he can get a multi CPL for. Conversion back to JAA can be found by searching this forum or online elsewhere. I never converted back to JAA as found a job flying N registered aircraft so the US license is ok. Just off the top of my head to convert back to JAA would cost somewhere in the region of 15,000 pounds but obviously look into it as that is just a guess. So if he could not find a job on N reg aircraft he is still able to end up with a JAA FATPL and you would have saved a lot.

Another option although the competition for this is tough is a cadet scheme. The only one I know of that is open to anyone and requires no financial outlay what so ever, even pays allowances during the training is the cathay pacific cadet scheme. International Flights, Asia Airline Travel - Cathay Pacific International (http://www.cathaypacific.com) careers.

The biggest mistake people make is thinking that once you have a FATPL that is the end of the spending, it sometimes is but more often than not is just the start.

Edited to add:

My biggest regret was not going to Uni, received a flying scholarship from the RAF, applied straight out of school for a pilot position, did well in all the tests but they said I was still a bit immature after the interview for the job so go to Uni and come back after. I never went to Uni, if I had I think I would have had a good chance of getting into the RAF as a pilot. The RAF is not a stepping stone though, I really wanted to do that job so if your son has no interest in it it is not the way to go but maybe he should go to Uni. Mature a bit, join the university air squadron and do some flying, get a degree so he can get a descent job if the flying does not work. Most airlines let you work to 65, he is 18, there is no rush. If he does the flying now and in three years still has not found a job what will he do? Go to Uni when he is 21-22 after spending all of your savings? Go work in some low paying job as he has NO qualifications other than his FATPL but cant get a flying job? Have a back up plan, he is young, there is no rush. I was lucky but during the time from finishing my CPL to getting a flying job I was working in a factory, 12 hour night shifts, worst jobs in the world, I had nothing other than a CPL with minimum hours, a very scary place to be.

[Um... lifting...]

...then he can get a job playing in a house of ill repute, so his Mum can hold her head high...

[421C]

Brian,

A few additional thoughts from a non-expert. I sometimes read these threads because I do various courses and training and also instruct a bit myself. The present dilemma for all young people about a career in aviation seems a really difficult one. The cost of training has never been so high, the risks of getting a job appear never to have been so high, and the rewards the industry offers seem to have plateaued at a level well below the historical one pilots of old enjoyed. However, for all this gloom, at some point in the future thousands of men and women who are 18 today are going to be pilots enjoying fulfilling careers.

One observation I have about some posters in your son's position is that their focus is on the "easier and more fun" question of where do I spend the £60k (ie. which school, or Modular vs Integrated) and the question of 'what are my chances of getting a job?'. This is fair enough if economics allow you to chance it.

If not, and if it is a stretch to finance the training, then I think Bealzebub's approach is right. If you'll forgive the business jargon, it's about "de-risking" this difficult/expensive dilemma.

How do you de-risk? The first part is to be able to assess the likelihood of success progressively and, ideally, ahead of significant investment (put another way, not to make the significant investments until you have solid signals about the likelihood of success). No-one can predict the industry cycle, but some young people are going to get jobs, so I'd advise focusing on the question "in this difficult climate, is my motivation and aptitude likely to differentiate me enough to be in the 'lucky' X% percentile who do get jobs"? The second part is to 'protect the downside'? What if it doesn't work out? What if have to give up the dream?

On the first part, Bealzebub has indicated the right first step. The CAA Class 1 medical is an obvious starting point. Not even worth considering any next step until you have done this.

I'd say there are 3 other steps, 2 formal, 1 informal. I am not sure in what order they should be done.
(i) is the PPL, as Bealzebub points out. There are a lot of ways one can demonstrate aptitude and motivation on a PPL course. I'd look both for the objective ones (success in training, but not obsess about it, a lot of people are 'finding their way' into flying in the PPL) and the subjective (motivation to be well prepared before and punctual before each lesson, willingness to do the boring as well as the fun elements of training)
(ii) is the ATPL written exams. These cost about £1000 for a home study course - ie. about 1% of the total training budget. I am not saying that they are an indicator of anything other than motivation and being good at exams. I am sure brilliant students are terrible pilots and vice-versa. However, absent a better way of gauging this expenditure, I'd make my son a simple proposition: you want help with £60k? Simple, let's see first time passes at over 90% on all the writtens in the next 9 months. It won't guarantee anything, and a lot of people will get jobs with much worse scores, BUT plenty of people will be able to perform like that in the writtens, so why not use that as a test of aptitude and motivation before spending the £50-100k?
(iii) is the informal side of motivation and aptitude. How much effort is being put to immerse himself into the industry and the culture of aviation? Reading (useful, well-directed reading) costs nothing. Helping out at a gliding club costs nothing. Some interesting things can be learned, dare I say it, from 'serious' PC flight simulators (including very impressive add-ons for airliner navigation computers).

I think if you had the right mix of positive signals from the medical plus (i), (ii) and (iii), you might have greater confidence in making the full investment.

The other subject is protecting the downside. My personal advice to a young person would be not to forgo the best degree they could get and afford. The ideal perhaps would be an engineering first degree, and then a 1 year aerospace or technology Masters. It's all about differentiating yourself in the pilot selection process, and having an educational background to maximise the chance of your Plan B if the flying doesn't work out.

Having said all this, the actual choice of Modular vs Integrated and which school is a relatively easy one. There are a lot of good schools out there and a lot of good advice available. Personally, I'd be impressed with someone who excelled in some way whatever course they did.

It may sound a bit silly, but I'll make a suggestion and tell me why not?
This book costs £13
ASA Test Prep 2010 - Private Pilot £11.99 (http://www.flightstore.co.uk/asa-test-prep-2010-private-pilot.asp/books/testpreps)
This software costs £20
FAA Written Test Preparation - Private Pilot (http://www.dauntless-soft.com/products/GroundSchool/private.asp)

It is the course for the FAA Private Pilot Certificate, and the software has the database of actual questions. Why not give your son the book, and a week or two of full time study (say a half-term) and then see what score he can get on a practice exam. If it's 50% or he can't be bothered, I'd worry. If it's a great score and he's keen, then I'd feel better about taking the next progressive steps towards spending £60k of equity from my home to fund the training.

I am being a bit brutal perhaps, but one reads a lot of threads about "shall I or shan't I spend £60k", and few about "how can I differentiate myself or test my aptitude and motivation before making the ATPL training decision?".

brgds
421C

[drumaster]

Okay guys family meeting over and since you have all provided some valuable information,advice and experience only fair to share the outcome with you:

We have decided Jake will go to University on Monday to take up his offered place on an Airport and airline management degree course. We will help him get his PPl over the next year and he will join the university air squadron. He will research and apply for cadet schemes as he sees fit and also he has the possibility to change Uni courses in year 2 to a more flying based one. He will finish this course at 21 and i think will be better prepared, more mature and perhaps with a few more options to consider. Our offer of finance stands should he come out the other side and still be committed to flying as a career.

This is just the gist of our meeting as we have been discussing this all day. It has been a full family decision but Jake is happy with the above and is now getting his head back into Uni mode.

thanks for all the advice.
Brian Short

[Bruce Wayne]

Brian,

a couple of additional points to consider:

you can raise the funds through equity to about 60k. To be honest and perfectly blunt with you, that is going to tap you out, and wont likely cover the additional costs that come up.

what if once he gets his fATPL he needs to cover a TR for 35k to get in line for a job offer ? where are you going to raise that ?

more equity?
call it quits and write off the 60k, time effort, tears and arguments already thrown in ?

60k will allow the ability to fund an fATPL on a modular program, but bear in mind it could be 2-3 years to find a job after that. the licence still has to be kept current !

you can find some overseas schools running JAA programs with JAA instructors/examiners that will allow the ability to gain a JAA fATPL at overseas prices.

the time effort and energy to convert an FAA to JAA is a PITA it takes time and money to do it.

not wishing to p*ss on your or your son's parade, but you do need to go into this with your eyes wide open.

421C and Bealzebub are giving good advice as are all on this subject, i would however adjust 421C's comment of de-risk to minimising the risk. you'll never remove the risk, but you can reduce it. (it's ok golden eagle i know what you meant :ok:)

[jack piper]

Some sage advice here, applicable to many careers, and I wish the best of luck to the young lad.

I've just stumbled across the forum while searching for PPL advice, and I'll ask the question quickly here rather than wasting a thread;
My son is 42 years old and wants to change career to become an airline pilot. What are the chances?

Oh, alright, my son is only 2, it's for me, and, not really. But is there a realistic age cutoff to start in commercial aviation?

Is there any point in an old duffer getting any commercial licenses after PPL with attachments, other than just for the fun of it, I'm thinking along the lines of NGO bush-volunteer, or semi-commercial photography flights, glider tow-launches and so on, perhaps even taking a career break. Maybe I should stick to the paragliding.

What if my son is interested when he's older, will everything be flown by computer by then? I image freight and combat might be.

Sorry a bit off topic and light, but it's Friday, for us 9-5ers.

[fcom]

As he is only 15 I suggest he joins the air cadets and gets some free gliding experience then in a couple of years completes the PPL.The industry would have hopefully improved in 3 years time and then I would suggest an ab-initio approved course to complete his ATPL. It works out expensive but better to spend the money on this rather wasting 30K at university where the degree isn't worth the paper it's written on and little of chance of getting a job relevant to the qualification.

[MidgetBoy]

He's 15, set him in the right path by showing him where hard work will get him.
Tell him to find a job, save up money, and when he's ready to dedicate himself to it, pay off his PPL alone. If he can get all the way past that, help with his commercial license.
Or just send him this way, he'll read how depressing the industry is and he may run back to your arms.
I highly doubt he'll manage to save up money to pay off his PPL, he's growing and realizing women exist, his funds will be spent elsewhere.

My sister was in the same boat, but not with aviation. She had a dream and everyone found it to be naive, but after a ton of hard work and dedication, she's just made it into vet school. I'm not saying his dream is naive, but it is extremely hard to accomplish in this day and age and live a reasonable life afterwards, so let him do the work.

[andy148]

This is just my 2 pence worth and please take it as that, i don't work for an airline and i cant even legally fly. But i do work with the RAF and have done for the past few years (on secondment from the Army), and i've had the opportunity to fly in the back of the hawk a/c on many occasions and have had many an impromptu lessons by some excellent pilots :ok: and by god do i wish id done things differently!
So what would i have done differently-
1- Joined the Air Cadets and not the Army cadets (free/discounted glider pilot licence)
2- Stayed in further education and gone to university and joined the UOTC (Uni Officer Training Corps) where you can do your PPL through the military at various RAF bases and also qualify for a £2000 a year bursary grant towards your study.
But what if he doesn't want to join the military? Don't take the bursary grant. But what he will have will be an excellent spring board for his flying carrier.
Again just my 2 pence worth, good look for the future!!

[TigerTheYoungPilot]

Let me inform you that im 13 yrs old going to flight school and learning a lot of things of an airplane like the four fundamentals, instruments, etc. and i have also loved flight since the age of 5. i currently live in America, Massachusetts, Boston. My flight school is at Hanscomb Field in Bedford and i flew over New Hampshire.

[Alex Whittingham]

Welcome to PPRuNe Tiger, good luck with your flying.