Merged: Milne Bay Crash

[Captain Nomad]

Sky News is reporting the unfortunate crash of a chartered aircraft working in the Milne Bay region (PNG). Sketchy details to say the least. Anyone heard anything else like operator/aircraft type?

[Amelia_Flashtart]

Six seater turboprop - 4 passengers - charter - it ws near Misima and it is believed all died except the co-pilot. It was chartered by Australian Reef Pilots who are marine pilots who do a lot of work in the shipping channels between PNG and FNQ.

That is as much as anyone seems to know at present

[GAFA]

Courier Mail is saying it's Transair's Citation II.

[atminimums]

From News.com.au...

ONE Australian has died and others remain missing after their plane crashed in Papua New Guinea's Milne Bay Province.

Australian Reef Pilots confirmed one of their staff members died when their chartered plane crashed this afternoon.
Other Australians, not working with Australian Reef Pilots, were on board but their fate was not immediately known.
Acting CEO for PNG Ports Jerome Peniasi told AAP the Australians on the plane were working with Australian Reef Pilots near Misima Island, Milne Bay, on PNG's south-east tip.
"We are aware of the accident but we still don't have much information as communication has been difficult,'' he said.
Australian Reef Pilots chief executive officer Craig Southerwood issued a short statement this evening.
"ARP is shocked and saddened by the loss of one of our marine pilots in a chartered plane crash in PNG this afternoon,'' he said.
"Chairman Don McLay is visiting with the family of our deceased workmate and friend to offer them the company's sympathy and any assistance at this terrible time. "We are all shattered by this tragedy,'' he said.

ARP provides help for vessels navigating in difficult shipping lanes and provides emergency and temporary port pilots and marine consultancy.
According to ARP's website (http://www.reefpilots.com.au/), the company has been involved in marine pilotage through Queensland's shipping channels for more than 100 years.
Milne Bay governor's spokesman Robin Wayuba said Misima Island locals contacted their office about 4.30pm (AEST).

"Locals said the plane skidded off the runway after landing at Misima," Wayuba said.

"The plane crashed into nearby trees and burst into flames.

"Locals say five people were on board and the weather had been wet and windy all day.

"They said only the pilot survived and (he) is in a critical condition in the local hospital."

It is still unclear how many people were aboard the charter plane


Read more: Australian dies in PNG plane crash, others missing | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national/australian-dies-in-png-plane-crash/story-e6frfkvr-1225912499647#ixzz0yBNVaO9p)

[TunaBum]

Australian killed in PNG plane crash - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/31/2998822.htm?site=news)

Australian killed in PNG plane crash

By PNG correspondent Liam Fox

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201008/r630218_4290221.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201008/r630218_4290226.jpg)

The plane crashed after landing at Misima Island, 200km off PNG's south-east tip. (Google Maps)

An Australian man and three other people have been killed in a plane crash on a remote island in Papua New Guinea.
Locals say the plane skidded off the runway, crashed into trees and burst into flames after landing at Misima Island, 200 kilometres off PNG's south-east tip.
Robin Wayuba from the Milne Bay Governor's office says five people were on board and only the pilot survived. He is in a critical condition.
Brisbane-based company Australian Reef Pilots says one of its marine pilots was on board the plane.
The man was due to guide a boat into Australian waters.
The company's managing director, Craig Southerwood, was too distraught to be interviewed but said his staff were in shock.
The Department of Foreign Affairs is trying to determine if there were any other Australians on board the plane.
Locals say the weather was wet and windy at the time of the crash.



TB

[Waghi Warrior]

What about JW ?

[Captain Nomad]

Oh dear... Sad news indeed! :sad:

[18-Wheeler]

Damn damn damn ..... is that the old TFQ?


Edit - looks like it is. :(

[Waghi Warrior]

If one of the pilots involved was the owner of the aircraft,I'm tipping that this story will turn out to be big news in Australia once the names have been released and the jurnos put 2 and 2 together.

[catseye]

believe it's not the first time pax had to push the aircraft on arrival into Misima

[OpsNormal]

I am hoping against hope that if anyone knows the names can you please either confirm or deny (by PM if you like) if DM was on board?

Regards,

OpsN.;)

[Tidbinbilla]

Folks, I've been checking the news regularly, and it appears the names of those (other than the ship pilot) have not been released.

A couple of you have named crew, which I've edited pending confirmation.

Out of respect for next of kin, please, no names on here until it's public knowledge.

TID

[OpsNormal]

Jim with respect, take your agenda somewhere else for the time being.:=

[compressor stall]

Oh ****e - just got the bad news. RIP mate.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Thanks for the PM, OpsN, ruined my day :(
RIP mate.

[C441]

Despite what Jim may post above, all those who've lost their lives in this incident will be sadly missed -

RIP Les

[The Voice]

devastated .. absolutely devastated

[VH-XXX]

News.com.au are reporting that Les Wright was on-board and is deceased.

[GoGirl]

Completely gutted.
To my mate - I will miss you forever and love you loads xxx :( :{

[MIss Behaviour]

Will greatl miss your sense of humour greatly around here. :{

[Chimbu chuckles]

Terribly sad news.

RIP Wiz.:sad:

[vee tail]

:(WIZ, wow. RIP I dont know what to say, Our history was long and colourful, thanks for being the dude that you were and my heart is with your wife and kids.

VT

[VH-XXX]

PerthNow has a picture of the aircraft for interest's sake.

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2010/09/01/1225912/644208-planebig.jpg

[Disco Stu]

To most people, the sky is the limit. To those who love aviation, the sky is home.

RIP Darren.

Disco Stu

[18-Wheeler]

Here it is in the early/mid 90's when I flew it.

http://www.billzilla.org/guasopa.jpg

That's at Guasopa.

[chimbu warrior]

Are you sure that is Guasopa? Must have changed a lot since I was there, and grown some pretty serious terrain.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

RIP mate, you certainly were a huge character, one of a kind and we'll miss you and your humour. Gutted.
:(

[Kunai]

Not the Guasopa I know either.

[GoGirl]

I'm going to be quick to say this;

To those who contribute to this thread; please keep it in mind that Wiz is a personal friend to a lot of people here and that respect is of the utmost importance.
Please tread lightly and perhaps p!ss off with your theory's - if you are tempted.
I know I speak for others too.

Thank you

Amanda

[Tinstaafl]

One of the good guys, now gone... :sad: His poor family.

[TunaBum]

Nice sentiments Amanda and I agree whole heartedly......but you and I know its not gunna stop the inevitable....

Edit: I understand the co-pilot survived after being somehow thrown clear during the crash!

TB

[tail wheel]

Airline boss killed in PNG crash: reports
By PNG correspondent Liam Fox

Updated 44 minutes ago

Three Australians and two New Zealanders were on board the small Trans Air jet when it crashed on Misima Island yesterday.

Locals say the Trans Air flight overshot the runway in wet and windy weather, crashed into trees and burst into flames killing four of those on board.

News agency AAP is reporting that Les Wright, a part-owner of Trans Air, died in the crash.

Mr Wright was the co-owner and chief pilot of the similarly named airline Transair which was involved in a plane crash that killed 15 people in far north Queensland in 2005.

Medivac company International SOS says one of its staff was killed in this week's crash but declined to provide further details.

Already identified among the victims is 61-year-old Sydney man Chris Hart, who was working for Australian Reef Pilots.

One of the New Zealanders, an Australian permanent resident who is believed to be one of the pilots, survived the accident with only heavy bruising.

Foreign Minister Stephen Smith says consular officials will remain in Papua New Guinea until the bodies of the three Australians are brought home.

"We have three Australian officials on the ground - they'll remain on the ground until such time as the injured New Zealand citizen who survived the crash has been transported back to Port Moresby and the bodies of the three Australians have been repatriated," he said.

Mr Smith says the deceased men were from New South Wales, Queensland and Western Australia and their families have been notified.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has expressed her sympathy to the men's families.

"Can I offer my condolences to the families of the three Australians that would be grieving the loss of a loved one today," she said.

"Can I also offer our condolences to the New Zealand family that has lost a loved one, and can I wish a speedy recovery and a return to good health to the New Zealand citizen/Australian resident who has been injured."

The crash is the third fatal plane crash in Papua New Guinea in just over a year.

Six people died in a light plane crash in January, while nine Australians were among 13 killed when a plane crashed into a mountain near Kokoda in August last year.

[TBM-Legend]

I've known Sir Les for 25 years. He was a true aviation character who trained & gave a start to dozens of fine pilots and will be missed by many.

RIP and tailwinds forever..

[18-Wheeler]

Can whoever finds out the places and times of the services for all the deceased please post them here. I'll certainly be going to pay my respects, I owe plenty.

[canttakeatrick]

Wiz will miss the SMS and texts and the humour

[topgun0007]

I also have known Les for many years (around 25) and I have always had the utmost respect and admiration for his continued support of young pilots in this country.

Always willing to give someone a go.

Many successful aviation careers have been fostered through the support of this ture aviator, a real Australian character.

I remember him saying to a group of his pilots in the early nineties that if the company could not run like a family with everyone getting on and supporting each other, then he would rather shut it down.

RIP Mate, we will miss you, tailwinds for eternity and GODSPEED

Rick

[chewi]

Les you gave me a start and many others, R.I.P mate.

[merlin395]

Les you will be missed. You gave so much to so many young guys in GA. Thank you...what more can I say. A sad...sad day. Good bye Sir Les...Lukim you wontok.

[rho]

Here here Chewi

Still havent processed it, but Les mate, thanks for trusting in us, and giving us the opportunity to realise our dreams. Some of the best times of my career at FL180. I have travelled the world and flown the big shiny ones thanks to the start you gave me.

Yes the Nose wheel Steering's on mate


Smithy

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Truly tragic news.
Friend for many years - you will not be forgotten.
:{

[MJMJKG]

As many have already stated I'm shocked and having trouble processing this... Les taught me to fly the MU-2 in the early 80's... we also spent many a day behind the boat waterskiing on Lake Moogerah... He was one of the good guys...

RIP Mate

Mark

[soliloquy]

Sorry to see Les go. He contributed a lot to Aviation and to me personally.

[hotnhigh]

A sad, sad day. I can only echo the sentiment here of many others. Simply, without Les's unwavering support of many young aviators, the careers of many who fly jets around Australia and the rest of the world today, would not exist. Including mine. RIP Sir Les

[Break Right]

Very sad news for many from the Australian Avaition and PNG community. I for one wouldn't be where I am today if Les didn't give me the opportunities that he did! May he Rest in Peace.

[VH-XXX]

The third Australian has been named on a pilots' internet forum as Darren Moore, from Leonora in Western Australia.



They didn't waste any time, this appeared tonight.

[The Chaser]

that X is the world we live in :(

[criticalmass]

RIP Wiz. Ozbash 2002, "Daisy" and all the other great stuff. :(

Also killed was marine pilot Chris Hart, whom I sailed with in the mid to late 1980s on the "Howard Smith". Affectionately known as "Choff" (Chief Officer), Chris was hugely entertaining and a skilled and competent Master Mariner, and was a memorable 1st Mate.

Chris did his cadetship on the "Uganda". It was used as a hospital ship during the Falklands conflict, then sold off. Once, Chris and I were on the "Howard Smith" at Kaohsiung, and we passsed the "Uganda" lying on her side in the shallows, having drifted from the anchorage during a typhoon whilst awaiting scrapping. I still have the photo I took and it is a sad sight to see a proud ship dying like that.

Chris was very moved by the sight, saying it had been the happiest ship he ever sailed on when it served as a cruise-ship. He also related the final voyage of the "Himalaya" in which he had been a crew-member. I sailed to England in 1956 on that same ship. Truly it is a small world.

So I say a very sad farewell to my friends "Choff" and "Wiz". I am much the poorer for your departure. :( :{

[tail wheel]

The Chronicle newspaper (Toowoomba) today advises the surviving FO was 25 year old New Zealand born Kelby Cheyne from Toowoomba.

[GoGirl]

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201009/r631207_4302897.jpg



Courtesy ABC news website

[TunaBum]

Similar shot from another angle.

Sole survivor of PNG crash, New Zealand pilot Kelby Cheyne, recovering in hospital | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/sole-survivor-of-png-crash-new-zealand-pilot-kelby-cheyne-recovering-in-hospital/story-e6frg6nf-1225913209261)


http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2010/09/02/1225913/157126-png-crash.jpg

TB :(

[craigdcr]

RIP Les.

Caleb says goodbye also. He will miss those shooting sessions.

You were a great bloke

Hope the flying is great where you are :)

[NOtimTAMs]

V sad indeed. I used to work in PNG and also used to work with International SOS elsewhere. Any news on the indentity of the New Zealander? I hope the initials are not RF...

[18-Wheeler]

The FO is Kelby Cheyne.
Bodies recovered from PNG crash site - Seven News Queensland (http://au.news.yahoo.com/queensland/a/-/world/7867081/bodies-recovered-from-png-crash-site/)

[swh]

Was he really the FO ? Info I heard was that Les was doing ICUS with a new captain.

Any idea when they will be returning to Oz, and when/where the service will be ?

[18-Wheeler]

It's what the news companies are reporting but as we know they are not reliable.

[Disco Stu]

Those who have been to PNG will know this press report Moving farewell | The National (http://www.thenational.com.pg/?q=node/12301) demonstrates the sort of people you mostly find there

Read the first half and you will have a picture of the kindly and respectful citizens of PNG.

Moving farewell (http://www.thenational.com.pg/?q=node/12301)

Source:
By STEPHANIE ELIZAH


MISIMA Islanders were in mourning as they turned up yesterday at Bwagaioa station to say goodbye to four expatriates who were killed in a plane crash on Tuesday.
Government offices, businesses and schools on this Milne Bay island were closed as islanders and public servants paid their respect to the victims of the crash.
The laid-back island has suddenly become the focus of world attention 48 hours earlier when a Cessna Citation jet, with three Australians and two New Zealanders, crashed upon landing in bad weather.
The islanders came in droves, in their best dress, to farewell the four people whom many of them had probably never met.
School children led the farewell entourage, forming a “guard of honour” from the island’s health centre morgue to the airport where a Airlines PNG Twin Otter was waiting to take the bodies to Port Moresby.
The line stretched about 500m between the morgue and the airstrip. All district administration vehicles also lined up for the farewell.
The islanders sang traditional hymns, some shed tears and many threw flowers on the path leading to the waiting aircraft.
The bodies, wrapped in body-bags, were carried by district health and administration workers.
“We were preparing the bodies when school children and public servants lined up to pay their last respect,” Samarai-Murua district administrator Hayden Abraham said from Misima.
Shortly after midday, the Twin Otter left for Port Moresby where the bodies will be treated and handed over to their immediate family members.
In Port Moresby, investigators announced that the Trans Air Citation jet’s black box had been recovered from the crash site.
This instrument, which records operation details of the aircraft, will help investigators better un-derstand the cause of the crash which killed the four and injured the 25-year-old co-pilot of the chartered aircraft.
Civil Aviation Accident Investigation Commission chief executive officer David Inau said five investigators had been assigned to the case.
“I have formally invited the Australian transport safety bureau to assist with the investigations. I have already a team of three on site working with us,” he said.
The Australian High Commission said those who died were Port Moresby-based Trans Air co-owner Lesley Wright, Richard “Chris” Hart and Darren Moore. A New Zealand citizen killed was unnamed.
Co-pilot Kelby Cheyne survived the crash.
Commission officials and a medical team travelled to Misima to assist with Cheyne’s medical evacuation and to facilitate the repatriation of the remains of the deceased.
It said it was working with police and local authorities to have the remains repatriated to Australia at the earliest opportunity.
The high commission said consular officers in Port Moresby and Canberra were working with the airline company and local authorities to keep the families of those affected by the crash informed on developments.
Officials were also in contact with their New Zealand counterparts.

Disco Stu

[Centaurus]

To be trapped in a burning aircraft is every airman's nightmare. In small jets, the cockpit rarely has side windows that could serve as emergency exits and if the crew survive the crash they have to go aft to escape. Example - the ditching of the Westwind.

Many years ago the United States Air Force (USAF) lost several F80 Shooting Star fighters that over-ran on landing or on high speed aborts. In those days ejection seats were not zero speed - ground level devices, and if the aircraft canopy was warped or jammed the pilots could not escape. The USAF introduced canopy breaker tools, rather like a heavy solid knife, that was installed in the cockpit and which could break through the thick glass of jet canopies.

Following the USAF experience the RAAF installed the same canopy breaker tool in certain types including the Sabre, CT4, and Macchi jet trainer.
The first life was saved soon after when a Sabre ingested birds after lift off and forced landed into a rice paddy field. It caught fire and the pilot was unable to open the canopy more than one inch. He un-clipped the knife from its installation next to the canopy, and hacked his way through the canopy to safety. Visit the RAAF Museum at Point Cook and you can still see the canopy breaker knives installed in the CT4 and Macchi.

The RAAF still have canopy breaker knives in some of their aircraft. If an ounce of prevention is better than cure (smoke detectors in houses for example) - then operators of small jets (or any light aircraft where a jammed canopy may prevent escape from fire), would be well advised to fit a canopy breaker tool in the cockpit to give crew a fighting chance of escaping a fire should the canopy jam or has no exit capability in an over-run such as the Citation at Milne Bay.

[TBM-Legend]

Many aircraft used to carry a fire axe or indeed a tomahawk which will do the trick..

[remoak]

My answer is that Darren was a really good guy who I had many fun discussions with. I will miss chatting with him through PPRuNe.

[Joker 10]

Really Bad, it is a "sh*T" happens moment, sometimes life is measured in seconds, but the reality is carried by us all for the fallen , we are one in the end.

[doubleu-anker]

Yes very sad indeed.

Who was actually at the controls of the aircraft, as it seems there were 3 aviators on board?

No I am not trying to point any fingers in any way, shape or form. Just curious.

There but for the grace of God go all of us.

[Fantome]

Good old Centaurus gives his usual informed detail ... this time on escape provisions . Thanks John.

Please don't think this little unrelated story in way makes light of any of the foregoing heartfelt tributes to Les and the others and of what happened to them that terrible day at Misima. (Think Les. Think irrepressible humour)

So purely an aside about judicious use of the crash axe . . . . . . one there was an F27 skipper name of Toby (rest his soul)
When the hostie said the dunny door was jammed shut with a passenger therein trapped , Tobe came back with axe in hand and called to the one within "STAND BACK" . . and with a few mighty swipes cleaved two vertical cuts to lay open the door. Tobe's entry in the 14-1 (the company maintenance log . . 'the tin book') simply read 'Toilet door U/S'.

[swh]

Who was actually at the controls of the aircraft, as it seems there were 3 aviators on board?

Very good question, one raised in the Saturday Courier Mail. It would appear from the Saturday Courier Mail article that the survivor did occupy a control seat and is not speaking to anyone about who was actually flying at the time.

[vee tail]

From what I understand it was a check ride both ways with Wiz doing the return sector.
Les was cheky

[The Voice]

not speaking to anyone

which no-one should question. That is the correct thing to be doing at this time.

[BigMike]

Les was PIC, and Kelby was Co-Pilot.
Darren was to fly with Les on the return leg.
Kelby was saved by locals smashing cockpit window with a log (window may already have been cracked) and pulling him out. By then the plane was burning.
There is already a fair bit of rubbish getting reported in the local media, but this was from eye-witnesses early the next day.

[Jabawocky]

Thats what I hear too!

[DX Wombat]

Those locals who rescued Kelby should be given an award for bravery.

[TunaBum]

Who was actually at the controls of the aircraft, as it seems there were 3 aviators on board?


This IS a very pertinent question.


Les was PIC, and Kelby was Co-Pilot.
Darren was to fly with Les on the return leg.
Kelby was saved by locals smashing cockpit window with a log (window may already have been cracked) and pulling him out. By then the plane was burning.
There is already a fair bit of rubbish getting reported in the local media, but this was from eye-witnesses early the next day.


This may all be true but proves nothing.


Once all the facts are out - I sincerely hope some lessons will be learned.....so this disaster and loss of life will not be repeated.

Such a pointless waste.

TB

[BigMike]

"This may all be true but proves nothing."

Wasn't meant to prove anything, but Darren was not flying the aircraft. I know, because I know the peolpe involved, and talked to Darren early that morning, and he told me what he had planned. I had not long landed at POM that afternoon when I watched it taxi out and depart.

There is now some doubt about locals pulling Kelby from the plane. Window was already broken, cracked, or he was able to smash it, and he got himself out. Regardless he is very lucky.

Why it crashed is basically known, but the full details will come out in time.

Tragic waste, huge loss to the local industry, sad for all concerned.

[TunaBum]

With all due respect Mike - you don't know he wasnt at the controls when it crashed.

Anyway as you say full details will come out in time and it will then be known.

You say "Why it crashed is basically known." Really - any chance you could enlighten us?

TB :ugh:

[Waghi Warrior]

Tuna,
Why all the pushy questions ? I for one would like to know all the details as well,just like everyone else. Be rest assured any hardcore answers,true or untrue in relation to your direct questions posted on this forum,will be splashed over every newspaper in Australia tomorrow. It's already happen before in relation to this accident,even with photos.

Until the investigation is completed lets just sit on our hands ay.

I just hope the young pilot who survived can get through this painful experience,and move on with his life and career without it destroying him.

[blackhand]

Hey Mike
Agree with you.
Sorry I missed Darrens farewell.
Did the extra glass for him over here.

BH

[TunaBum]

Tuna,
Why all the pushy questions ?

in relation to your direct questions posted on this forum

Um.....are you serious Waghi? I've asked one question, and even that was hardly pushy or direct. :rolleyes:

I suggest you re-read my previous posts and ONE question I have asked in this forum...it shouldn't take you too long.....

Sorry if I've offended anyone but it seems to me some contributors have a blinkered view of things at times like this....

TB

[blackhand]

This may all be true but proves nothing

Tuna
Are you suggesting that someone other than Les was in the Pilot seat.

[Mainframe]

DX Wombat

Yes, some bravery of the rescuer, identified here


A teen hero has told of pulling a Kiwi plane crash survivor from the wreckage minutes before it exploded.
Pilot Kelby Cheyne, 25, was the only survivor of a Transair crash on a Papua New Guinea island that killed four Australian men and one New Zealander.
Trainee carpenter Henson Jasper, 19, told the Herald on Sunday he saw the plane crash during torrential rain about 3.30pm.
"When the plane came in to land at the airstrip I saw the smoke," the Misima Island local said in halting English. "The left wing was on fire and I saw the wing explode.
"I just ran down and saw the plane. I stood and looked in and the people were calling."
He said the windscreen was cracked so he smashed it with a branch. "I pulled the pilot from the plane. He was panicked. I was talking to him and he couldn't answer me.
"I carried him out and put him lying down.
"I went back to help the others but I couldn't, because when I turned back the plane was exploded," he said.
He said other villagers helped him carry Cheyne into an ambulance.
He visited Cheyne in hospital. "I asked him 'do you remember me?' He answered me, 'I still remember you - thank you very much'."
Cheyne grew up in Dunedin and Twizel before moving to Australia in his teens. After the rescue, he was flown to Australia and has now been discharged from Townsville Hospital in northern Queensland.


and here


Misima Island hero Henson Jasper, a trainee carpenter in his early 20s, heard screams and ran into the wreckage and dragged the pilot to safety moments before the jet exploded into flames.
"He risked his own life to save the pilot," said Misima guest house worker Eli Uda.
She said the jet speared into a stand of coconut trees at the end of the rain-affected runway before bursting into flames.
"Everyone in the village ran towards the crash site as soon as we heard the plane hit," Ms Uda said. "Henson was one of the first on the scene and hearing cries for help ran in and dragged the pilot to safety.
"But then the plane exploded and caught into flames.
"He tried to turn back and save the rest but the fire was too fierce. He could not go back."
She said everyone in the tiny island community was deeply saddened by the tragedy on their doorstep.


The Citation is a pressurised aircraft, almost impossible to kick a windscreen out. not so hard to knock it inwards, as this rescuer did.

[TunaBum]

Great effort by the youngster. Hope he isn't traumatised by the event and hope he gets the recognition he deserves - it sounds like he did everything possible.


Are you suggesting that someone other than Les was in the Pilot seat.

No- what I am saying is I don't "know" and I'm willing to keep an open mind and wait for the facts to be reported.....

TB

[muddergoose]

"I just ran down and saw the plane. I stood and looked in and the people were calling."

Doesn't that just break your heart. :{

[blackhand]

No- what I am saying is I don't "know"

And Mike has told you Les was PIC.
What more is there to "know"

Other than that are you suggesting that as PIC, Les was sitting in the back and the marine pilot was at the controls.
Or Dazza was at the controls with Kirby as PIC, Les in the back and the marine pilot sitting on Dazzas lap.

BH

[TunaBum]

Blackhand if you are happy just knowing the Les was PIC then good for you.

As for the rest of your questions, I am not going to enter into a conversation on a public forum about who I think might have been sitting where. What good does that do anyone at a time like this?

(Except I can assure you I would be extremely suprised if the marine pilot had any involvement in flying the aircraft as he was a MARINE PILOT.:ugh:)

All I'm saying is keep an open mind and wait for the outcome of the investigations. Hopefully the CVR will have been "operational" during the critical final stages of the flight!

TB

[blackhand]

TUNNABUM

Knowing Les, contrary to what you are implying, everything would have been done in the approved manner.

Who the F are you to suggest anything else.

As for the seating arrangements I was being facetious.
As far as the Marine Pilot not flying, how the F can you assure me of that when the official report hasn't come out. My god man it could have been on auto land for all you know and they were all in the back knocking down G and Ts.

I have looked your previous posts on other threads, you seem to want to find controversy in aircraft accidents.

BH

[BigMike]

There is no doubt who was in the cockpit that day, period.

Forget the fact that Darren told me he would be flying it back with Les, forget the fact that Darren was an CASA PNG FOI and that he would not be in the front on a charter flight (first leg), forget the fact that when the bodies were recovered from the wreck evidence was taken regarding where they were found, but, it is pretty conclusive when the surviving Co-Pilot explains to the company what happened.


"Blinkered view" I don't think so. Just the facts as related by those who DO know.

[TunaBum]

Blackhand,

Now I don't know when you are being serious or "facetious" in what you are saying! If you are being serious about the marine pilot I suggest you do some research on what a marine pilot is - you may be suprised.

All I've basically said on this thread is to keep an open mind and wait for the outcome of the investigations. If that hits a raw nerve........?

TB

[Waghi Warrior]

TB
One crew member survived and I sure he has passed on to the investigators just who was at the controls at the time of the accident. The ATC tapes and the CVR will also be able to indicate who may have been flying the aircraft as well at the time of the accident.

Why should it be public knowledge at this point in time ? Let the investigators make this public at the appropriate time. I just hope politics don't get in the way of this investigation,as is usually the case up here.

[TunaBum]

WW,

Thanks for the civil post.:ok:

I agree with everything you say.

For the record, I've never suggested "it" should be made public and I've never even named names. Everyone else seems to be doing that and stating they know who was sitting where. Then getting shirty with me when I say we should all just wait and see what the investigation tells us.:rolleyes:

TB

[weido_salt]

What is relevant to me is this. Was the accident aircraft equipped with operating thrust reverses?

[Heavy Cargo]

WS "NO" TRs

[blackhand]

.......and stating they know who was sitting where. Then getting shirty with me........That would be because we are a very close knit group in Mosbi and will not stand for you trying to cast aspersions on friends now deceased.

do some research on what a marine pilot is - you may be suprised.

You really are an obtuse :mad:
BH

[DX Wombat]

Blackhand I happen to agree with you. What Tuna seems incapable of realising is that his insistence that he wants to know now who was sitting where is extremely upsetting to those of us who knew one or more of those on board. So, Tuna, for those of us who are still feeling very raw and upset please give up this quest now and do as you have eventually come around to advocating - WAIT. All will eventually be revealed.
Muddergoose, thank you for the account, I wish I hadn't read that people were alive when it burst into flames and had been left with my fond hope that the rest had been killed on impact, but that is not your fault, I chose to read it. RIP Darren and the others.

[TunaBum]

OK - I wont post anymore on this thread (until the investigation is completed) as I seem to be upsetting some on here although I genuinely have absolutely no idea why.

How anyone can read my posts and conclude that I am insisting on knowing who sat where - is beyond me. Yet at least 2 of you seem to think I am.

Finally, I apologise to all I've upset.

TB

[goddamit]

Deeply saddened by this tragedy. I too got my break from Les, RIP. The worst part in any accident to come to grips with is suffering :{. The account from the rescuer is awful news...:{

[18-Wheeler]

A pissup at the Brekky Creek Pub Sunday 1pm in memory of Les if anyone wants to come. I'll be there.

[OzExpat]

I'd love to be there 18-W but have only just now seen your post and it's too short notice for me. I've known Les Wright for a lot of years - at least as long as I've known Darren - so would really have liked to be there.

[18-Wheeler]

Les's service will be at 1pm Friday, Logan Village Cemetery.

[megle2]

18-W Thanks

[troppo]

Notimtams and cc, incase you didn't pick it up a couple of weeks ago, the 'un named' kiwi was not (Dr) RF. It was another employee of ISOS

[Waghi Warrior]

Final report is completed according to last night's 6pm news report on EMTV in PNG. The ATSB web site says that the report is complete, however only the preliminary report is available for download.

[Waghi Warrior]

Accident report here http://www.aic.gov.pg/pdf/P2-TAA%20Final%20Aircraft%20Accident%20Report%20Misima%20310812 .221112.pdf

Very damming report and accurate to my knowledge. What the co-pilot had to endure during the last few minutes leading up to the accident was absolutely dreadful.

Lot of lesson to be learnt from this accident.

[compressor stall]

RIP old mate. It makes me angry to know that your fun loving life was taken from you, your loving family and you friends all too soon by the actions of a dinosaur in the cockpit. There are enough risks in what we do without such pilots making them worse. This accident which claimed your life and those of your fellow pax was entirely preventable.

I'm still sad and now I'm angry. :{

[Mach E Avelli]

The AIC states that it is not its purpose to apportion blame. However, all but the most thick witted reading this report would conclude where the blame lay. No doubt any litigation that follows will pursue this angle.
While normally on the side of the PIC wherever there is any doubt, in this accident I can see no mitigating circumstances.
Standing by for incoming flack for speaking so ill of the deceased.

[Jabawocky]

Mach E, how ya doing:ok:

I doubt too many could seriously throw rocks at you for taking that position. One that most rational thinking folk would take.

I guess the culture in one of his other operations may have been influenced that way as well. Certainly had a similar but worse outcome. Casual factors perhaps.

Very sad set of circumstances.:sad:

Damning report indeed. What concerns me is that the co-pilot at no time during the descent demanded a proper brief on what the approach was going to be, at what the go/no go points would be. There was a clear case of mustgettheritis and this was apparent pretty early on.

Scud running in a jet on a short grass/dirt/gravel runway that is clearly going to be wet and slippery as a butchers block, not long enough unless dry and into wind (nil tailwind), must have looked scary long before they were across the beach let alone the threshold. And at that point could have demanded go around and done so himself before it was too late.

If Wiz had not had his back turned to the cockpit (seating wise) or had been in the RHS it is a fair bet the approach would have been discontinued long before. 20/20 hindsight of course.

Simply amazing.............:sad:

[Mach E Avelli]

Not long after this accident I went into Misima in a King Air. The strip was not fit for that aircraft; it was slippery and boggy. Cleaning all the mud out of the intakes and wheel wells was quite a task and I certainly would not go back there after rain unless the recommended work had been done to the runway meantime. Probably not....?
That a Citation with no reversers would have gone there on a regular basis is surprising, to put it mildly. Not that you would be able to use more than idle reverse with all that mud flying around, but any is better than none. And not that reversers would have made any difference to the outcome on this occasion, given the approach and landing.

[beaver_rotate]

What an awful report (content).

I had to read it a few times. Scud running in a jet, not visual on final at 400'.... for some reason I can hear my old bosses (ex Bushies) words on a route check about our RPT op into Cooktown some years back:

'what are you trying to achieve? Bodies from A to B. If you don't get in, is it a big deal? Take the fuel and come on home'.

The irony is they were shutdown in oz by the regulator and their PNG op took down (quite literally RIP) a CAA FOI in it's demise.

Very sad. Does their C208 operation still exist in PNG? I am out of the loop.

[MACH082]

A good tale for CRM and a classic example of what not to do.

RIP Wiz

[Waghi Warrior]

Very disheartening to read such a report, in fact it's the worst I have ever read and from my sources it's accurate truthful.

Now lets get to the meat in the sandwich, how the f$ck did CASA PNG allow Les to have anything to do with an aviation business in PNG given his previous track record in Australia? From the report the Chief Pilot at the time had absolutely no control over Les in the cockpit. The Chief Pilot was stuck in between a rock and a hard place, Les owned the jet and was a part owner in the company and the Chief Pilot was an employee, not an ideal situation to be in. Someone from CASA PNG or CASA Australia should have stepped in and got heavy handed before this disaster happened. Whilst we all need to take ownership of our responsibilities, we also must help one another out and in this case no one was prepared to help the company out to get this issue rectified, apart from maybe Wiz who was in the bloody back. I have no doubt that Wiz was fully aware of the situation with Les and the company and his ultimate goal was to provide CASA PNG with some positive operational oversight of the operation to get things on the right track.

[Mach E Avelli]

Some very valid points WW. Wherever you have an AOC postholder who is also an owner or person with a major financial stake in the organisation you have the potential equivalent of a pedophile running a primary school.
Regulators need to ensure that owners/shareholders are distanced from operational decisions. Chief pilots and chief engineers must be given far more direct control over standards etc than is currently the case. This means that they should have a measure of direct budgetary control and absolute power to hire, fire and assign to duty. Although the CEO is also a postholder, it should be absolutely clear that his/her function is to provide the funds and the facilities for the technical people to properly discharge their responsibilities. A CEO in a small outfit could fly the line to keep abreast of operations, but allowing a CEO to wear the Chief Pilot hat or a Flight Standards hat in any company which operates more than one or two small aircraft is just asking for rules to be broken, short cuts to be taken.
Until this happens we will continue to see accidents caused by commercial pressures.

[Waghi Warrior]

There really needs to be some kind of rule introduced to safeguard against possible company stakeholders having strong influences over operational matters.

A good effective SMS should be able to nip these issues in the butt before they get out of hand, however in the Transair case SMS wasn't a regulatory requirement at the time and the whole SMS philosophy would have been in it's infancy stage in PNG me thinks. Is SMS now a mandatory certification requirement for all AOC holders in PNG now?

[Mach E Avelli]

It has been my unfortunate experience to find SMS in small companies is basically a lip service only.
Nice manuals are written with motherhood statements about how everyone from the CEO down to the cleaner is responsible for safety. A computerised tracking system is set up to report, investigate and acquit anything and everything that is seen as a potential risk.
Quarterly meetings are sometimes held and minutes taken so that the CASA auditors can get a warm, fuzzy feeling that all is sweetness and light.
But somehow only pissant stuff like the occasional duty time bust or coffee spill in the galley finds its way into the SMS.
If something really serious crops up, it is buried. In a former airline (now defunct) we had a major flight control issue with a jet transport aircraft that resulted in a classic rudder hardover event. It was certainly due to dodgy maintenance and exacerbated by the way in which test flights were conducted. The crew did all the right things in reporting it, but the so-called Safety & Security Manager in cahoots with the Chief Operating Officer and a cardboard cut-out non-flying Chief Pilot somehow buried it.
I could give other examples.
Exposed to this culture, pilots eventually treat internal company SMS with contempt.
CRM is similarly treated with contempt by some hardcore old-school types - as evidenced in the CVR pulled from the Misima crash. A pilot may do the course and maybe attempt to incorporate good CRM for a while - for as long as all is going well in their world. Then, when the pressure is on, they revert. CRM training does not necessarily modify one's core personality.

[wotthe]

Interestingly enough, the CEO of Solomon Airlines is also a line captain on the A320.

Hullo?

[Mach E Avelli]

By the "big one" are you referring to Lockhart River? If so, is the ex CASA guy the one still out there? The one who wrote all his independent ATO privileges before he left?

[Jabawocky]

Justiceseeker,

I have been wondering where you have been hiding, and why it took so long for you to state the obvious.

Sad huh. :(

[DX Wombat]

In the process of checking that I had the correct date I came across the last few posts. Most of you will be aware that I hold only a PPL not CPL but even with my limited knowledge I am horrified at what would appear to be mistakes in basic good practice and the apparent "I'm a god, do as I say" attitude. From the little information available I too feel sorry for the co-pilot and fear that his feeling that anything he said would be ignored is probably correct. What a pointless waste of human life. RIP Darren & Co.

Standing by for incoming flack for speaking so ill of the deceased.Why? If he is as guilty as it would appear then it is perfectly understandable. Whilst not quite on the same scale, you don't hear anyone complaining about the bad press given to Hitler and his like.
Stallie - I agree.
One possible good thing I learned from the co-pilot's account was that there was no movement from the others in the aircraft when he managed to escape for which I thank God as it would appear that a previous report may have been incorrect.

[ARPs]

3 years today.

It only seems like yesterday that I was being audited by one of the most approachable level headed FOI's that I had come across.
RIP Mate

[Grogmonster]

Mach and Others,

With respect guys there are owners of aviation companies who do an excellent job with safety related matters resulting in well run safe organisations. Stop for one moment and think how a company might start and grow to be something big if it did not commence with a hands on owner?
No owner = No company = No jobs.

In my experience we have seen the guys who are shonks go right through their career doing the wrong thing and nothing ever happens, with reference to the regulator, until there is a serious accident or worse still a fatality. We, the industry, know who they are but if we say anything or pass information to CASA we are the worst type of people in the eyes of our peers and for that reason we keep our mouths shut in public. There are bad eggs in every industry and in my view the common thread here is that the regulator fails to do anything even though they are aware of the situation, e.g. Hempel. Why is that?

Groggy