Borneo 1962-66

[NURSE]

I've been reading some general books on the Borneo Confrontation and trying to get more information on the Helecopter operations. Any one know of any books/websites?
How did the climate/terrain effect the performance of the Belvedere,Whirlwinds, Wessex's, souix and scouts?

[Andu]

NURSE, it was slighty before my time, but from some I know who were there, the high temperatures caused major problems with aircraft that were already performance-limited even in ISA conditions.

My favourite story (possibly achrophal) from those days was of the number of hits from ground fire the Brit choppers were suffering in the tail rotor area. Then some bright spark came up with the novel idea of moving the large RAF roundel that was painted under the forward cabin to right down towards the back end of the tail boom.

The Indon marksmen on the ground had been (naturally) drawn to aiming at the large, inviting 'target', and, with that providing the lead angle, the choppers were taking hits near the tail.

Roundel moved, same (lack of) lead angle applied, no more hits. British ingenuity at its best.

[Chugalug2]

I was AT out there myself, NURSE, or MRT as we called it in those days. A shiny new co-pilot on Hastings enjoying the best posting on offer then or ever IMHO. Have you read:
Drop Zone Borneo, The RAF Campaign 1963-65: 'The Most Successful Use of Armed Forces in the Twentieth Century' Pen & Sword Military: Amazon.co.uk: Roger Annett: Books (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Drop-Zone-Borneo-Campaign-1963-65/dp/1844153967)
written by a chum of mine, Roger Annett, similarly then both shiny and new but suffering from the disadvantage of being posted to the "Whistling Wheelbarrow"! :E Nonetheless he captures very well the spirit of time and place. A different world in a different time of course, but a very typical low profile British success story.
The only "Chopper" related story that I recall came from one of our skippers who was detached as ASLO or BASO to them (as ever the memory fades) to supervise inter alia the loading of troops. The Whirlwind pilots complained that they were barely clearing the tree canopy from the small clearings as they departed loaded with troops. As the troops in question were Gurkhas and not burly Brits it didn't make sense. So chum hangs sample Gurkha on Butcher Scales slung from tree. Sure enough he comes in at 2/3 standard troop weight. Next replace Gurkha with kit. Tree groans, branch threatens to break, scales go to full scale. Upon investigation of backpack, in place of socks pairs spare for the use of, etc, is yet more ammo and associated sundries!

[Fareastdriver]

Then some bright spark came up with the novel idea of moving the large RAF roundel that was painted under the forward cabin to right down towards the back end of the tail boom.


I thought I was an expert in telling tall stories about my Borneo days but I have to stand back in admiration for the bloke that thought up that one.

[Old-Duffer]

There aren't too many accounts of Borneo and still fewer about the helio part of it - but that's about to change, however, not just yet!!

At that stage all helios were under powered and had limited range/payload. Comms were primitive, weather was a major problem, navigation done on the back of a fag packet - mostly time & distance stuff, poor maps, flying suits made in Australia - unless you wanted to wear the 'UK strength' blue stuff!!

For a young'un it was an experience of a lifetime.

Spares - particularly blades - were frequently in short supply and one was at the end of an 8000 miles pipeline being primed by people with no idea what was going on at t'other end!

Go to the 'history & nostalgia' threads on this site and look for 'Belvedere' and the posts about 225 sqn, confrontation and Indonesia etc - loads of background stuff there.

I had such a great time, I sometimes give talks about it!!

O-D

[bast0n]

Spot the Wessex!!

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/Borneo16.jpg

[Jig Peter]

At the start of Confrontation, most of Borneo was unsurveyed: it was said that the border between the East Malaysian (ex-British) and Indonesian Borneo had been surveyed by Shell, with the British and Dutch sides of the company doing the work separately, using different base-lines. Major (and even minor) land features could therefore appear on either side of the frontier line, depending on whose mapping one was relying on. This was said to give considerable lee-way to troops on the ground when confronting opposition forces ...
Certainly, Canberras from Tengah were involved throughout in photography for accurate maps to be produced, instead of the large areas merely " contour shaded".

Confrontation was indeed the most successful example of successful diplomacy backed by land, sea and air forces shown to be "ready to go" - a sharp contrast to the mess that was being made in Viet Nam. The result was a stable Malaysia and Singapore, as well as Indonesia itself: Harold Wilson's declaration as Confrontation wound down, that we would never again be involved in anything so expensive and that we would withdraw from "East of Suez" was one of the crassest ever made by a British politician.

[Heimdall]

Slightly off topic, but perhaps someone can shed some light on the persistent rumours of a 60 Sqn Javelin dispatching an Indonesian C-130 with a Firesteak missile and of a 20 Sqn Hunter claiming a kill on one of their MiG-17s?

Heimdall

[NutherA2]

persistent rumours of a 60 Sqn Javelin dispatching an Indonesian C-130 with a Firesteak missile and of a 20 Sqn Hunter claiming a kill on one of their MiG-17s?During my tour on 60 Sqn (Nov 63 - Mar 66) I flew CAP/Border Patrols/ADIZ scrambles from Tengah, Butterworth, Kuching & Labuan and can confirm that the persistent rumours are guaranteed untrue, just wishful thinking. We would have been pleased to engage, but the Indonesians never turned up, except of course for their C130s dropping paras at Labis on a night when we weren't invited to join in.

[mrmrsmith]

Borneo Air War (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Borneo/air-war.html)

[Old-Duffer]

The weighing of Gurkhas has substance in fact - but not in Borneo. A sqn cdr in Cyprus bought several bathroom scales and got his crews (then flying Sycamores) to weigh the troops before emplaneing them. In this way he could maximise payload offered. He became known as 'Bathroom Scales P*&^%' to differentiate from 'Tail Rotor P*&^%' who acquired that epithet for obvious reasons of banging the backend on the ground.

As to the Javelin/C130 story there is again an element of truth (sorry to contradict NutherA2). At Labis (Sep '64) the Indons dropped a load of paras from 3 Hercs and these duly fled back across the water to Sumatra and one of them (flown by Indon Foreign Minister Subandrio's son) believed he was being pursued or had been 'painted' by somebody and flew into the sea. The story of the search for and 'elimination' of the incursion, which resulted in the death of Major Richard Haddow and the disappearance of the Indon Sgt Maj Wogiman is for another day.

At a place called Long Bawan, south of Bakalalan, an Indon C130 was chased by a Javelin or Hunter which found the C130 coming the other way up a valley. Everybody did a quick 180, followed by the Brit doing another 180 and the C130 fled across the border and crashed on the strip at Long Bawan. It was still there sometime later.

Turning to Jig Peter, the border was generally taken as the ridge line. The aerial survey was started by 684 Sqn in 1945 and was still being worked on by 81 Sqn 18 years later. Of course the locals completely ignored the border but as we treated them generally better than the other lot, we benefitted from their trust and friendship.

Great Times

O-D

[NutherA2]

I was on the QRA force the night of the Labis para drop and am absolutely certain that none of our aircraft was scrambled, although it was rumoured that Bukit Gombak GCI had detected the 130 incursion. I believe the report that one of the Indonesian aircraft had gone missing came from diplomatic sources in Jakarta; if it was suggested that it had been intercepted the rumour was allowed to develop, but believe me, none of us was airborne that night.

If the Borneo incident occurred, none of us was made aware of it, which would have been very odd, considering the amount of time and effort we were putting into the border patrols and the understandably keen rivalry between 20 & 60 Sqns (and latterly 64) to be the first to find anything to intercept.

Might this Wikipedia entry be relevant? -

The Indonesians lost a C-130 in Borneo and it did not involve the RAF. It occurred on 26 September 1965 near Long Bawang airfield into the 5th Division of Sarawak near Ba Kelalan in Sarawak. It was shot down by Indonesian anti-aircraft fire, being mistaken for a Commonwealth aircraft. It was carrying a reinforced RPKAD platoon from RPKAD Battalion 1’s Company C (nicknamed ‘Cobra’). The full company had been sent from Java on orders of the Indonesian high command to ‘neutralise’ a gun position on the border ridge. After the aircraft was hit the RPKAD parachuted out and the aircraft crashed, but the crew got clear before it caught fire.

[Old-Duffer]

I shall defer to NutherA2 regarding the details of the stories I have related above, as his involvement was more 'immediate' than my recollections based on second hand information: humble pie duly consumed with the wheatie bangs!

O-D

PS We're drifting the Thread a bit from helios stories but probably no bad thing as the campaign was a model of how to get things right and followed the equally successful Malayan Emergency.

[teeteringhead]

And both the P*&^%s went on to do quite well.

JL (Bathroom Scales) retired as a gp capt having commanded a rotary Station, while JW (Tail Rotor) finished as a 2-star, inter alia having commanded a fast-jet Station in Germany.

[I'm sure O-D knows all that,but others might not!]

[NURSE]

some nice links from historic thead to some photos of a Whirlwind flight quite interesting stuff on dress and conditions. In the forward Helecopter bases.

[Chugalug2]

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x199/chugalug2/TrgacKuching38Medium.jpg
Some sundry types, including mandatory hicopleter, on the Kuching apron taken from Hastings executing an approved run in and break.

BTW Oldduffer, not sure I'm enamoured of your:
The weighing of Gurkhas has substance in fact - but not in Borneo.

I don't doubt your story, just wonder why you doubt mine. The guy concerned wasn't given to line shooting, no doubt the Butchers Scales were the jungle equivalent of your man's bathroom scales, there being a lack of hard floors in the jungle to set them down on of course. If the quote above included the word "only" after "not" then honour would be satisfied and my second could be recalled,,,,,

[bast0n]

Another Hecopleter!

This one was one of 848 Squadrons runabout having taken over from the Hiller 12e's of 845 Squadron. Eventually they were superseded by Wasps.

Not a lot of lift in a Whirlwind 7 in Borneo - or anywhere else for that matter.

848 had the wonderful Wessex 5.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/WW703.jpg

[Chugalug2]

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x199/chugalug2/KuchingPanMedium.gif


Baston:
848 had the wonderful Wessex 5.
Wot, these contraptions skulking behind the wondrous flying machine in the foreground?

[Old-Duffer]

Having 'backed down' to the superior knowledge of NutherA2 at about 0630 hours this a.m, I am now posting a retraction - nay - clarification to satisfy CHUGALUG2, regarding who did or did not weigh which Gurkhas, when, where and how. Further generous helpings of humble pie consumed!

However, Teeteringhead - in his last post - has forgotten the third in the trio and that was 'HT' - now living in quiet retirement somewhere near Cheltenham.

Happy Days

O-D

[newswatcher]

BORNEO - Sepalot (http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/showthread.php?3742-BORNEO-Sepalot)

Malaya - Supply Dispatch by air - What airfield? (http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/showthread.php?4727-Malaya-Supply-Dispatch-by-air-What-airfield)

Butterworth, malaya (http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/showthread.php?4492-Butterworth-malaya)

Borneo 1965 - Beware Lots of Pics - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46025)

Memories - Operations in the Air (http://www.fight4thepjm.org/memories_raf.htm)

and:
Helicopters of 26/66 Squadron at Kuching
http://static.flickr.com/3087/2661562618_eb34f51a51_m.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/3075/2661561866_cdcdfbb94a_m.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/3031/2660730429_598375f565_m.jpg

[bast0n]

Chugaz

You have done it this time!!

Them ain't Wessex 5s them is Wessex 1s - no power and no idea from 845! They were based on Bulwark hence the big B on the tail.

I enclose a photo of my foot to show you the difference in exhaust pipes!

Plus the A for Albion..................:O

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/Borneo12.jpg

[teeteringhead]

Oh bast0n!

rotors running, HP's foot on cockpit sill, troops emplaning with fancy hats on ...

.... and you say the RAF SH force is gash! :ok:

[bast0n]

Teeters

Did I ever say gash?

PS what is HP?

PPS the only way to keep cool was to fly with your foot out of the window and let the wind blow up rather than the usual down................:)

PPPS Fancy hats!! The bobble on the top is actually a nail that keeps them on in the downwash..................:uhoh:

[sycamore]

The ADF aerials are on the rocks,so`s the tail HF,the hook`s open,no flotation gear...tut,tut.tut.
Best you don`t go anywhere near Scotland either,or the Argyle`s will make you into a haggis,or just a few `little bits`.....
HP is wot the `upper echelons` of the PC brigade call the `handling pilot`,in formal circles,as opposed to `I`ve got it ,Middy`....

[Chugalug2]

Well let me say a word in your favour, baston. Such elan, such style! The right leg resting nonchalantly on the window sill, though I daresay it has a more nautical term, scuttle or suchlike. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there wasn't a furled brolly by your side in order to poke the locals with if you needed to get directions from them (loudly and in English of course). English eccentricity at its best, on which we built an Empire. Oh, you're not, and we don't mention the Empire? My mistake, sincere apologies I'm sure.
As to the difference in Exhaust Pipes, yer 'avin a larf aintcher? I think the real problem was that my Wessex (got that bit right at least) wasn't the wrong Mark, or even the wrong Squadron, but from the wrong boat! What? Ship? Oh sorry again, perhaps I should just make my excuses and leave!

[bast0n]

Sycers

and yes I flew one of them once!

We managed to get the HF sticks happily between the pebbles. Could you not in the Crabbies? (to be fair they were latterly modified to a more kindly angle to avoid an unfortunate tangle)

The hook was always open until shut with a load on it. Turning up with a closed hook could have fooled the lesser mortals on the ground. Hook always ready and waiting - no sports afternoons on a Wednesday for us Laddie!

Flot gear over the jungle? How deep was your puddle. Extra weight and maintenance - see sports afternoons above.

Oh and Chugaz - I like the idea of handling the pilot. As there was only one in the old cockaz one had a fair chance of a small inflow roll............:)

I include a picture of our RAF exchange officer............the confused look is because he had trouble working out that we had two engines...........nice tach though:ok:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/Borneo13.jpg

[NURSE]

what was the troop loads on the various aircraft in the Borneo Jungle could they lift the advertised numbers or was it reduced due to heat, altitude etc?

[Old-Duffer]

Oh NURSE, you've spoiled the youthful banter and general bon homme with your question.

The simple answer, as with many questions relating to payload is: 'it's a combination of all the factors'.

You had to be able to get airborne for a start and so a 'running take-off' would allow a few more pounds weight than a straight lift above the tree line and a transition to forward flight (one soldier = 10lbs of torque). If you were flying a shuttle, take more weight as the fuel went down. What's the height and temp doing? Where's the next load of fuel coming from and how do I get to it? Plus several other questions, including; 'is the boss looking?'

However, there are at least two v-experienced and greatly respected HPs contributing to this Thread who have more hours than I've 'ad hot dinners, so I'll leave it to their superior knowledge.

O-D

[NURSE]

I'm sure there are alot of stories and memories from all 3 services and 60's helecopter warfare tends to be dominated by US operations in Veitnam same goes for Jungle Warfare. Personally I think we did it much better and with more style.

[sycamore]

BastON, is that the WX `Mk1` HUD/Gunsight or a reflection on the windscreen ?

NURSE, as O-D says,it was a time when one had to know your power limits,and the best techniques for landing and t/o,in the tropical climate,from sea level to 5-6000 ft LZs.On our WWs we only had fuel-flow as a measure of power(plus crpm,and ptit );we were also limited to a max AUW of 7800lbs,whereas civilian WW Seies 3 ,were cleared to 8000lbs.
And yes,we had bathroom scales,which were used to make a `standard weight`list,or if something different came along we would weigh it.For instance,105 MM field gun shells+charges came in a big wooden box,weighing some ,say 200 lbs, but about 40 lbs was the box wt. That was wasted weight,so we would just carry the shell+charges in their tubes, saved weight,carry more shells,easier to load/unload,everyone happy,and no back-loading of empty boxes..
To reduce the weight of the aircraft we also took out the seats,leaving the belts,HFradio,windows ,door on occasion,ran with minimum fuel,and if a large troop movement was required ,we would get them to go in light fighting order,where they had only about 2-3 days rations,leaving bergens behind,getting more troops on the ground,and once they were secure,we would ferry in the kit.It meant you could probably carry an extra 2-3 troops at a time,and they were much more mobile/flexible....Syc..

[Fareastdriver]

we had two engines...........

and twice as much trouble.
Two sick Wessie at Sepulot with the robust Whirlwind; flown by me, who had to drag himself out of the Victoria Hotel bar in Labuan, so I could do their tasking for them.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-1-2010_008.jpg

It took them a week to get them started again.

[sycamore]

FED,Al,what cab is that with the `snotty ` nose,and did it return to Odios ?

edit; just being an anorexic, or sumpn`...

[bast0n]

Sycaz

Indeed it was the HUD gunsight. The rocket sight was much more complicated as it necessitated firing a rocket and putting a chinagraph cross on the windscreen where it seemed to go..............

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/img165.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/jsf_Wx5_Rocketing.jpg

Ah - what happy days...............

[Low Ball]

I was an Infantry Officer during Confrontation Deployed in the Third Division and based in Long Jawi. As a late arrival after a jungle warfare course in Kota Tingi (Malaya) I travelled from Sibu to Nanga Ghat (NG), the home of 110 Sqn RAF, in a speed boat so all day up the mighty River Rajang. As you approached NG there was a Wessex 5 nose down in the river and not 100yards later OMG another one, all FAA. There were many stories of how these aircraft came to be there most of which seemed to centre on how many Gurkhas could you get on a Wessex and the answer seemed to be as many until she will just get into a hover then one more! Phrases like WTF have I let myself in for and I'll never fly here raced through ones mind. 110 flew Whirlwind 10s and I flew from NG to Long Jawi the following day with sacks of mail the trip took some 45 to 50 minutes passing a large mountain range, name escapes me but was the weather barometer for the trip as in if it was in cloud you didn't go. Life for the next 5 months was in and out of the jungle on 14 day patrols. The WW would take 4 soldiers loaded for bear (food and ammo) and the crewman was dispensed with. A Scout from the flight based in Sibu would also take 4 pax, 5 with the pilot. If the winds were unfavourable there was jungle refuelling stop available, Blue 49 code named Diana, with 44 gallon drums and water sedi kit available. Happy days, that expirience turned me to flying. 2 and a half years later I was on a flying course and the rest is history, thirty years flying with the AAC and never regretted it one minute. One of the 110 pilots was Sergeant Fred Aries (sp) other names have long gone. Scout pilots John Hathaway, John Bamford again other names gone as well. My last helicopter trip out of LJ was in a Belvedere which was timely as I had spent many a happy hour increasing the size of the LZs from WW to Belvedere size - much explosive, blisters and broken chain saw blades!!

LB

[bast0n]

Lowball

What year were you flying from NG in WW10s?

[Old-Duffer]

............. Low Ball, the pair of Wessex you saw in the river were not Mk 5s but Mk 1s and they were put there on 12 Apr 65 as a result of a mid air between two 845 cabs. There was only one survivor - a petty officer aircrewman, who released his running harness and dropped into the river, as I understand it.

The RN lost three men and the army lost a Para Regt patrol and one or more 'attached' soldiers. If you are a member of the Malaya & Borneo Veterans Assoc, they have a roll of honour with all these guys listed.

A chum of mine was at Nanga Gaat this very March and he photographed, inter alia, the remains of the engines and some other bits which still remain and can be seen depending on how high the river is.

Furthermore, you ought to be entitled to the Pingat Jasi Malaysia (PJM) - a medal issued by the Malaysian Government which the (very rude) British Government didn't want to accept but then relented, although not for wear!!! (So who's going to enforce that bit of useless legislation??).

O-D

[bast0n]

Old Duffer

Quite right. The rear cab flew into the tail rotor of the front cab - the rear pilot not being very strong in the sight department - but that is a very long and unhappy story not worth re-telling.

[Fareastdriver]

sycamore

XR456. The picture was taken late August 1966. I never flew it again. It did not return to Odiham with us and it was written off in 1968.

[Fareastdriver]

Looking at the pictures of rockets.
Chunky Lord flew a Whirlwind equipped with SS11 missiles. He told me, over a few pints, that they fired one into a cave were a load of Indons were hiding. Owing to the skill of the operater, aided and abbetted by the rock steady flying of said Chunky, they sent a missile right into the back of the aformentioned geologcal feature and blew the whole lot out like a shotgun.
They were obviously too good so the RAF disbanded the squadron.

[Old-Duffer]

Fareastdriver & Sycamore,

Poor old '456 stayed in the Far East and was with 103 Sqn when its engine stopped on 5 Nov 68, somewhere near Mersing. It went through the trees and ended up on the jungle floor. Although the pilot received back injuries, the crewman and another NCO were not too badly bashed about but 456 is still where she fell.

Pilot recovered and went on to be a stash at a well known helicopter base near Basingstoke (not an officers' town) and was last heard of living on a boat in marina in Cambridgeshire.

In a similar vein, I have somewhere a photo of XJ412 - another WW10 - perched on the very top of Tinker's Hill in Sabah. She had a tail rotor failure but it was too inaccessible to get her out and there she remains. At the time, she could be seen from miles away, sitting there and looking very sad but I expect she's buried beneath the canopy now, unless some enterprising local has dismantled her for scrap! If I can figure out how to do it, I'll post a pickkie.

Toodle Pip

O-D

[chinook240]

I think Sycamore posted pictures of the incidents you describe here. http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/292051-rotorheads-around-world-incl-views-cockpit-15.html

[Low Ball]

BastON and Old Duffer,

I was in Long Jawi Nov 65 to Mar 66 with 1 KOSB

Sorry to hear of the real reason why the Wessex 1s were in the river

LB

[bast0n]

Lowball

I asked as you stated that there were WW10s stationed at Nanga Gaat over that period. In fact NG was inhabited by 848 with WX 5s over that period. We handed over to 110 Squadron in I think September 1966. Then we trotted off to Labuan and Bario. I remember flying to Long Jawi many times. You kind chaps used to bring us cans of cold Tiger beer..............:ok:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/Borneo4.jpg

General view of Nanga Gaat for those unfamiliar with it.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/Borneo82.jpg

[Old-Duffer]

Chinook 240,

Thanks for the pointers to Sycamore's photos (accident prone SOB that he is!!!!). Unfortunately, they are not the ones to which I referred, so I still need to post the others.

You will have noted that Sycamore has managed to keep the old WW erect after a tail rotor failure with the landing parameters forced on him - skillful or what!!

O-D

[forget]

Anyone know when the Royal Brunei Malay Regiment received their two Wessex?

[chinook240]

O/D,

No problem, I've been speaking with Sycamore recently and he described an incident involving my old Stn Cdr, BW, at an airbase near Hook, they droppped the Basingstoke postcode many years ago for obvious reasons. Was this another BW incident? I'm sure he'll be along shortly to post more pics.:ok:

[Low Ball]

BastON,

I wouldn't want to get into a tiger can throwing contest with you on here but I do know my Whirlwinds from my Wessex and my RAF officers and NCOs from my RN officers. Similarly I know that I was commissioned in July 65 and flew to Singapore in Sep 65, attended JWS Sep/Oct 65 and flew to rejoin my battalion (who had deployed a month ahead of me) in Nov 65. We had taken over from an RBMR Regt and handed over to a Gurkha Bn in Mar 66. Shortly before we left we had a planned op on the 'other side' and in order to get the Company up to the border in one go the FAA came down from Bario (I think) with their Wessex to get the job done.

By late 66, IIRC, confrontation was as good as over.

LB

[bast0n]

Lowball

You could be right - I have just checked my logbooks and it seems that the years have taken their toll!!

I think we must have moved to Bario around Christmas 1965.

Sorry for any confusion.

Below is the "Control Tower" at Bario, manned by a very nice Crab who had to take being bombarded with empty beer cans from returning aircraft......

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/Borneo128.jpg

and one for the fixed wing heros.............. the strip at Bario - note the HUD gunsight................


http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/Borneo121.jpg

[Old-Duffer]

Chinook 240,

Not sure which incident Sycamore is referring to but you've got the RIGHT man - boom boom!

O-D

[chippymick]

"Confrontation was indeed the most successful example of successful diplomacy backed by land, sea and air forces shown to be "ready to go" - a sharp contrast to the mess that was being made in Viet Nam."

Three things are worth remembering.

The UK helo effort in Borneo in the 1960's nearly approached the intensity of the French Helo operations in Vietnam back in the 1950's.

The RAF incurred more loss in Vietnam as a result of being shot down by 'Insurgents' in Vietnam than actually occured in Borneo.

The Commonwealth didn't win it, the Indo's lost it by an own goal.

Regards

Mick

[NURSE]

HELICOPTER SQUAD HONOURED - British Pathe (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=44113)

was directed to this link of 845 at work

[Jig Peter]

@Chippymick
Could you amplify your second point worth remembering - "The RAF incurred more losses in Viet Nam ..." please? I'm a bit confused by it .

On your third point : one of the things about a "confrontational" set-up (domestic or international) is that the "winner" is the one who either has the patience to wait for the other side to make an own goal or the skill or low cunning to provoke him into one.
Didn't a famous Chinese tactician of the old days write about the best victory being the one you win without having to fight ?

[Fareastdriver]

The Whirlwind had an HF set that we used to talk to Brunei, position reports, etc. One of the frequencies would sometimes mix with an American net in Viet Nam during certain atmospheric conditions. I was giving a position report when this American voice told me to get off the frequency:
"Don't you know there is a war on?"
"Yes," I replied, "we're winning ours."

[Trojan1981]

G'day BastOn,

The fixed wing aircraft in the second pic, is that a Pioneer?

[lauriebe]

T1981, an AAC Beaver I think.

[Old-Duffer]

............. confirmed.

Some similarities between a Beaver and Single Pioneer but the latter was generally 'slimmer' in appearance and stood higher on its legs.

O-D

[chippymick]

Jig Peter

The RAF’s first operational helicopter unit was formed at Seletar in April 1950. ‘The Far East Air Force Casualty Evacuation Flight’ was equipped with Dragonfly Mk 2’s and the original pilots that manned that flight were Flight Lieutenant K Fry, Flight Lieutenant John Dowling and Flying Officer Allan Lee.

In 1953 the RAF started to introduce the Whirlwind into service in Malaya. At precisely the same time the French purchased Whirlwind Mk 2’s from Westland. These aircraft became the first practical helicopters that the French used against the Viet Minh in Indochina. The French used a mix of British and US S-55’s for casualty evacuation, during and after the epic Battle of Dien Bien Phu.

The French handed over 10 surviving S-55’s to the SVN Air Force when they quit Indochina. Some of the S-55’s that the French kept, were further developed into the first ‘Gunships’ The French were using the Whirlwind as a gunship in Algeria by the late 1950’s By 1960 the most experienced and most innovative military helicopter user was the Armee de l’Air.

The US took note of the French experience in Indochina and Algeria in developing the UH-1 Huey. By 1960 the XH-1A Huey was used for grenade launcher, rocket and machine gun tests. In the early 1960’s DARPA were working on several research projects and trialling them under combat conditions in South Vietnam. One of these projects resulted in the M-16 Rifle and another resulted in the Huey Gunship.

The scale of Viet Minh anti-aircraft fire around Dien Bien Phu in 1954 exceeded anything seen since World War Two. The Viet Minh and their successors, the Viet Cong, were adept antiaircraft gunners and were masters of the 12.7mm Machine Gun. The 12.7mm was being used against helicopters in South Vietnam by 1963 and three Helicopters were shot down in a single afternoon in January 1963 during the battle of Ap Bac. AFAIK the Indo’s attempted to set up only one .50 Calibre anti aircraft position along the border during the entire period of confrontation. By contrast the Viet Minh had downed their third Huey, but first from RPG fire by January 1964.

By 1964 the US had learned from and had regained the lead from the French in the operational use of military helicopters. The highpoint of the UK’s Far East forces integration with its SEATO allies also occurred in 1964, just prior to the election of Harold Wilson’s Labour Government in October 1964. It is not surprising that the high point of UK involvement in the Vietnam occurred at this time. In January 1964 one of the RAF’s most experienced helicopter pilots was on board one of DARPA’s experimental Huey gunships when it became the fourth Huey to crash in Vietnam.

Much as the US had learned the techniques of modern helicopter operations from the French, the UK were keen to learn the state of the art from the US. To this end, the by now Wing Commander, Allen Lee, one of the first pilots in the ‘Far East Air Force Casualty Evacuation Flight’ way back in 1950, was attached to the DARPA Gunship program.

Lee’s Huey UH-1B tail number 62-01880 suffered a tail rotor failure after a strafing run on Viet Cong positions in Kien Hoa Province. It is not known whether the cause of the tail rotor failure was due to enemy ground fire in reply or merely a mechanical mishap. 62-01880 crashed into the South China Sea.
Although three of the crew were rescued, conditions were extremely difficult. Both Lee and the US pilot Bryford Metoyer perished. An attempt to rescue both of them was made but Metoyer disappeared and Lee slipped from the grasp of the rescue helicopter crew and, he too disappeared. It is assumed that both were taken by sharks.

Whatever lessons that Lee learnt in Vietnam that might have been useful on the Kalimantan border died with him. By the time the UK committed to Borneo in confrontation, their helicopter airframes and operational art were still firmly entrenched in the 1950’s.

The Director of Borneo Operations seldom had more than two dozen helicopter to support his task. Of the entire helicopter assets assigned to Commonwealth Forces in the Far East the most suitable for the mission in Borneo were the Iroquois of RAAF 5 Squadron based at Butterworth. Why these were not made available to DOPOPs remains yet another RAAF mystery.

The airframes the UK did use in Borneo included the wholly unsuitable Belvedere. Two of the broadly comparable US CH-21 Shawnees had been shot down at Ap Bac back in 1963. The US was using their Shawnees at Ap Bac as assault helicopters. The principal advantage that the Shawnee exhibited over the Belvedere in this role was the fact that a step ladder was not required to disembark from a CH-21.

The Whirlwinds the British were still using in Borneo had by that time been retired from Vietnamese service. The Vietnamese air force was being re-equipped by hand me down US Marine Corps Wessex (S-58.s). UK Helicopter operations in Borneo in every respect were a generation behind what was occurring directly North across the South China Sea from Jesselton.

In my opinion, drawing comparisons between Borneo and Vietnam is extremely vexed.

The motivation of the average Viet Minh/Cong far exceeded that of any Indo insurgent. Old mate, Suparamen was no Superman, his heart wasn’t in it at all.

Think about this; What if the same thing happened in North Vietnam as occurred in Indonesia in 1965? Just say, in September 1965 General Giap in North Vietnam also pulls a Military Counter-Coup that results in half a million members of the Lao Dong party put to the machete.
Perhaps then the outcome for South Vietnam might have been the same as for Malaysia?

The leadership and resolution of the UK in standing up to Soekarno’s nonsense at a time when the UK could least afford it is really admirable. The UK’s record in decolonising Asia is second to none. But when it comes to UK helo ops during Confrontation, it is important not to make more of it than it was.

Cheers

Mick

[Trojan1981]

laureibe & Old-duffer

Thanks for that. Were the Austers also AAC or were they RAF?

[sycamore]

Austers,Beavers,Scouts and Bell 47 were operated by AAC,although some RMs had B47s as well..

[Jig Peter]

Thanks for your informative reply, Mick. With the usual lack of resources, the RAF saw itself from WW2 onwards as obliged to concentrate on Bomber and Fighter Commands, followed by the Maritime and Transport efforts. Helocopters werrte definitely viewed as a "bad career choice" (in the '50s, I'm talking about) even though any Soviet moves on West Germany would have involved large numbers of rotorcraft and iit seemed to me that this aspect of aviation was being severely neglected by the Powers in Whitehall. ("You can't have everything, dear boy - in fact we can't have much of anything" sort of thing - a theme still being sung today).
What the helicopter people did in Borneo was, though, vital in keeping the Army's people mobile and supplied - even with such "odd" equipment as the poor Belvedere, whose dire background you'll be aware of. Not much, if any, shooting from them, though (? Not a mainstream activity ?). With excellent STOL aircraft like the ""up-tilted tail" version of the Andover and the Single and Twin Pins, plus the choppers, the job got done - and when Confrontation was over, the fixed and rotary wing aircraft were summarily disposed of: "Surplus to Requirements, old chap".
But the end result was that Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia were able to develop outside the Communist influence, which, although H.Wilson Esq reckoned the whole thing had been too expensive to be contemplated ever again, was the object of the exercise.
Reminds me of a Tom Holt character's "Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see their god and still have change from a 5-pound note".
Cheers,
JP

[stan747]

Hi NutherA2,
It was interesting to read about the loss of an Indonesian C130 in Borneo and the intention to neutralize a mountain ridge gun position.
I was number 2 on that gun and can remember being attacked by a rather strong force, rumor had it that there was over 300 of the buggers against 28 of us. We repelled them and followed them down the ridge with 105 howitzer gun fire. On another occasion, they opened up on us from the opposite ridge with a 76mm gun, unfortunately for them, the sun was rising behind the mountain they were firing from. We could see their mussel flash and ranged in. They managed to get 7 rounds off at us before I hit them with our 4th. Another 6 HE finished the job, overturning their gun and killing many.
We must have really been a thorn in their side.
Did any of you guys fly us up there from Bario, would like to get in touch.

[Chugalug2]

stan747, your mention of 105mm rings a few bells. We routinely dropped food and POL from our Hastings as we worked our way around the many DZ's, but when everything on board was 105 ammo and all for one DZ then we knew it was in contact and whatever the weather had to be resupplied. Good to know what good use was made of it! :ok:

[Bill4a]

"The Whirlwinds the British were still using in Borneo had by that time been retired from Vietnamese service. The Vietnamese air force was being re-equipped by hand me down US Marine Corps Wessex (S-58.s). UK Helicopter operations in Borneo in every respect were a generation behind what was occurring directly North across the South China Sea from Jesselton."


If I recall the S55s that the US were using (and retired) were piston powered S55s and we (225 and 110) were flying Gnome powered Whirlwinds that had (far) more power.
Mind you, the drivers (reputedly) would have traded them for Hueys.
:}

[Old-Duffer]

At its height, the RAF operated four Whirlwind 10 sqns in Borneo: 103, 110 both based at Seletar with detachments in Borneo and 225 and 230. The former was based at Kuching and the latter at Labuan.

225 was disbanded on 1 Nov 65 and its aircraft distributed amongst 103 and 110. 230 Sqn went back to UK in the autumn of '66 and it took its aircraft with it in the back of several Belfasts.

These RAF Whirlwinds were all jet powered and hence superior to the S55 and also earlier piston powered versions of the Whirlwind (Mk 2 & 4). Many Whirlwinds were re-engined and a number, in the XP, XR and one XS (412) series were new build. The RN used the Mk7 but in the main they had Wessex, first the single engined Mk 1 and later the twin engined Mk 5.

O-D

[gandwnich]

Other 110 pilots could be F/Ls Badham, Edwards, Bradshaw, F/Os Ramshaw, Kelson, S/Ls Price, and Buckmaster (RNZAF), M/Ps hatton, Leydon,Spinks

[Gumpied]

Of those 10 names I flew with 8 of them at the beginning of my flying career:)

[gandwnich]

Also F/Lsl Toddman and Presly

[gandwnich]

110 Sqd took over at Nanga Gaat September 1965

[chopper2004]

I had started a thread asking when did aircrews from the SHF and AAC remember when the first gen NVGs were being used, and I think some1 said that the earliest we had them were early 70s and 103 Sqn in Singapore??

In Vietnam and Laos, the US Army and Air America had the INFANT UH-1M with LLTV, and FLIR and the 'Quiet One' also equipped with LLTV and FLIR and NVG.

Air America's Black Helicopter | Military Aviation | Air & Space Magazine (http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/the_quiet_one.html)

I'm guessing that anything close to resembling the avionic fits would have been undergoing experimental evaluation at Bedford/Boscombe Down/Farnborough

Though the AAC were quite forward thinking according to FG archive in 68

1968 | 0196 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%200196.html)

Airborne TV, Polaroid recon kit for instant battlefield imaging,

1968 | 0197 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%200197.html)

and Sperry Visual Target Acquisition System

Cheers

[Old-Duffer]

Well Post 64 onwards got the old memory buds going.

Some updates:

Eric Leyden, who had been awarded a QC following a partial engine failure in a Sycamore, was commissioned, became a QHI and was then killed at Odiham in a mid air collision between a pair of Wessex.

Geof Bradshaw and Mike Ramshaw are still going strong - the former I saw a month ago and the latter will be at an 'Old Rotors' dinner in June.

John W Price (tail rotor Price) - not to be confused with H T Price or J L (bathroom scales) Price, retired as an AVM but is not very well.

Not sure where Tony Edwards is but his son was in the air force.

Unfortunately, Peter Presley is no longer with us and I was told that neither was John Badham but can't confirm that.

I think George Kelson went back to Canada but not sure.

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Mods, there is now a book published called: The Borneo Boys. This tome documents the contribution made by - mainly - the guys on the four Whirlwind and one Belvedere squadron, which were in Borneo.

An interesting period in one's life, probably going to do a reunion tour to Borneo next Spring and hopefully rekindle some fond memories!

Old Duffer

[Laker Liker]

As a flight engineer on 48 Squadron Hastings I was one of the "volunteers" who were sent to Labuan to fly with either 230 or 110 Squadrons as crewman for a short period. I have just bought, through pen-and-sword website a book, again by the 'whistling wheelbarrow' co-pilot Roger Annett, entitled 'Borneo Boys' ISBN # 978 1 78159 010 2 which covers all helicopter operations during Confrontation.

Well worth a read and stirs up a lot of memories.

[gandwnich]

Whilst at NG S/L Price had photo of all the detachment taken, it was at the time the squadron was being presented with it's colour 's at Seletar. I have been trying to obtain a copy, would you by chance know any one who has one.

Best Regards - Graham Nicholson

[NutLoose]

Found this?

110 Squadron Photo by vinedodger | Photobucket (http://s571.photobucket.com/user/vinedodger/media/110Squadron0002.jpg.html?sort=6&o=21)

More

vinedodger's Library | Photobucket (http://s571.photobucket.com/user/vinedodger/library/?sort=6&page=1)

[Old-Duffer]

Re the 110 photo - that must have been later 'cause the Prince of Darkness is in the front row!!! JWP was replaced by him in about June/July 1966.

Old Duffer

[Cornish Jack]

gandwnich and OD - more names featuring in my logbooks - Bradshaw, Ramshaw, Kelson et al. Slightly odd moment, when working for Virgin, took lunchtime stroll in Crawley and as I passed the P.O., out came a chap, face familiar, brain cells (mine!) disengaged:uhoh: ... said chap disappeared along street and it was some minutes before the cogs re-engaged - if it wasn't GK, he must have a doppelganger!! No further sighting.
Rgds to all of that era. (BC, as was)

[Old-Duffer]

Well Cornish Jack,

Bradshaw is still with us and lives not to far from Shawbury and he lunches regularly with Ramshaw. I'm certain George Kelson went home to Canada. I shall try to print the photo and see how many names I can get - watch this space!!!

Old Duffer

[Old-Duffer]

Let’s try and sort out the photograph of 110, obviously taken at Seletar and in the days of the PofD and not John Price. This makes it between July 1966 and end of that year.

Front Row: ? but might be Bradshaw, M/P Rowe, Miller, Fermor, Wright, Hadlow sqn cdr, ?,?, Lofty Marshall, Tony Cooper, ?

Middle Row: ?, ?, ?, ?, Skea, Deakin, Dark?, ?, Pressley, Taylor, ?, ?, Griffiths, ?, ?

Back Row: ?, ?, Culverhouse?, Carey, Dudgeon, Kelson, Alcock, Bell, Hockin, Leeming?, ?, Ramshaw, ?, Collinson DFC, ?

Fourth Row: A Whirlwind 10!!!!

The guy next to Cooper could be M/Sig Greg Lovelock but not sure. If true, that means some of the others will be crewmen as well but can't remember who the SengO was.

Old Duffer

[Oldlae]

Re post 66, would F/L Toddman actually be S/L David Todman DFC who became OC 22 Sqdn at St Mawgan mid sixties?

[normanhugh]

The RBMR acquired three Whirlwinds in 1966. They had three pilots seconded from the RAF.

I was there with the RAF Detachment.

[Danny42C]

gandwnich - your #65 (and others),

I was on 110 (Hyderabad) twenty-two years before. Were they still lugging round the bit of DH9a panel with the tiger's head painted on it in your day ?

Danny.

[Bill4a]

Sorry but the bottom picture is B of 225 Sqn that went in just South of the 7th Mile Serian Road. I spent the night 'guarding' it! :}