I made Captain! Now how do I be one?

[albertaboy]

Hi all
I have flown single pilot to my first thousand hours and had a blast so far. Upon reaching 900 hours I went directly into left seat training on a light twin, passed my single pilot PPC at 1000 and now find myself being Captain essentially without ever being a copilot. (Poor me, I know;))

I am now finding it slightly difficult to react to those in the right seat who has less experience and less "hands and feet" in the airplane. At what point do tell them "I have control". Obviously I know safety is number one, and don't ever compromise it, ever, but there is something to be said for learning by experience and your own mistakes. just looking for input on the whole situation all together.

Any insights at all on the many aspects of being a quality Captain would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!:)

[tinpis]

What kind of big bad boy aeroplane they put you in charge of Cap'n?

[albertaboy]

One that flies more often than not into icing doing upwards of 20 take off/ landings a day on short snow and ice strips in Northern Canada. Also one that sometimes has a Co-Pilot. I didn't realize that my job was any less important because there are only 10 SOB.

Thanks for the quality reply though.

[HappyBandit]

Windup alert!!

[KRUSTY 34]

You probably need to chill a bit albertaboy. There may have been an element of sarcasm in tinpis's reply, but there are a few differences to being a Multi-Crew Captain depending on what sort of aircraft you fly.

My first foray as being a "Multi-Crew" Captain occured some 20 years ago. The company I worked for had a fleet of mostly 10 seat Piston twins with a few C441's thrown into the mix. They operated Charter and RPT and were usually flown single pilot. For the RPT however, if the auto-pilot was U/S they were required to be operated with a second crew member. I'm assuming by your post this may be the situation you now find yourself in.

All the regulations required for this sort of op, was that the "Co-Pilot" be endorsed on type, have a CPL, and a current intrument rating. No multi-Crew training was required. We had about 4-5 chaps who would regularily fill this role. Most were up and coming CPL holders looking for a foot in the door, and were usually paid a token amount or not even paid at all!

I had little or no experience in Multi-Crew ops at the time, so I made it up as I went along. I like to think of myself as a "people person" so I thought it important to allow the guy in the RHS to gain as much experience as possible, but you need to be careful. I usually flew the more challenging sectors and let the new guy fly the easier ones. That way I was able to get a feel for what type of operator he was. Without any SOP's to guide us, some of the Captains simply relagated the RHS guys to Radio and Nav duties! I tried wherever possible to give the Co-Pilot's leg for leg, but as I said you needed to be carefull.

Today I work in a structured and regulated environment. The unexpected can, and still does occur, but my command training for my current position covered most aspects of multi-crew operations. Captains at our company are essentially "Trained" to be Captains, and they are not checked to line as such unless they can demonstrate proper multi-crew SOP's.

As for when "do I need to take control"? My advice is always to be ready, and if in any doubt, fly the sector yourself. Can be hard work sometimes, but also remember, to get the most out of your co-pilot, they need to be confident that they are part of a team!

P.S.

Gidday Happy Bandit. I considered that, thought I might have a go anyway!:O

[albertaboy]

Thanks for the words Krusty, aswell as the chill advice. I guess I get a little crazy if I havn't had a cold one by 5pm on a Saturday:O.

I think always being ready is a very good tip. I have caught myself a couple times assuming they know to put in left rudder, or whatever it may be. Usually they do, but the odd time it just doesn't register to them.

I have no doubt they won't be the only ones learning in that cockpit!

[Old Akro]

Good question. I don"t fly professionally, but I'm taking up a figurehead role that is new to me and doing a similar thing. My suggestion is that you make a list of 6 - 10 questions. Not technical ones about adding rudder, but the ones behind those questions about showing leadership to a less experienced no.2. Then I'd find 3 or 4 of the absolute best most admirable captains you can and ask them. The questions need to be well thought out so that a) you don't waste their time and b) so they immediately see that you're smarter than the average bear. I think that you'll be surprised by the positive reception you get.

The other advice that comes up time and time again from the good authors is to do a personal critique of each flight and identify the bits you are uncomfortable about and without the pressure of flying, think about alternate options.

[43Inches]

Can be hard work sometimes, but also remember, to get the most out of your co-pilot, they need to be confident that they are part of a team!


I think this is one of the most important parts to being an effective captain. To get the maximum benefit from multicrew you need to be able to trust the other guy is monitoring you when they're not flying and can fly when its their turn.

Sharing sector for sector and keeping the crew in the loop via effective communication/briefing ensures you both know what you're trying to achieve and if it starts deviating from that plan query each other as to why with standard callouts or just plain english. This usually ensures any unsafe situations are handled before the point a change of control is necessary. If another crew member starts to deviate from the plan without telling me whats changed I will assume he's making an error and will query it. If the aircraft state will lead to an unsafe situation don't wait for it to get there, act, if it involves taking over than so be it.

From a leadership point of view aspire for the highest standards, operate within the rules but don't make the crew feel like you are invincible as they may not communicate errors or problems to you that you have missed. If an FO does call you on a speed or tracking tolerance or points out you have made an error make sure it is clear you appreciate the input (no matter how stupid it may have been) and don't come across as if you knew you were making the error and was getting around to it.

When you get to point that you have non-pilots as part of the crew have the same respect for their input. Flight attendants pointing out loose fasteners or stange noises and smells are important. Never dismiss a problem they point out as they may eventually stop trying to pass on info and give up thinking that their input is not valued.

[nomorecatering]

Geez Krusty......you real are an old bugger.........er, um I mean distinguished gentleman.:O

[Grogmonster]

Alertaboy,

Have a look at the limitations section at the front of the POH of the aircraft you are operating. At a guess I would say it is a C208. If, as I suspect, under the heading Pilots required it says minimum crew ONE then you should not be operating multi crew unless your company operations manual specifies two crew operations for that aircraft. If your company did have that requirement you would have had comprehensive training to complete your duties as Captain and you would not have posted this thread.

Groggy

[albertaboy]

Hey Groggy, it's PA-31 cheifton. I had some training but just looking for some real world tips
Cheers!

[Peter Fanelli]

Maybe you should first learn how to spell Chieftain.

[Martin VanNostrum]

I can recommend a copy of the following book, about US$35, which can be ordered from Amazon. It contains very sage advice for pilots at all stages of their career:

"Aircraft Command Techniques" by Sal J Fallucco

[tinpis]

Canady eh?
I suggest you search for some wise words written by my old mate Duke Elegant.

[jibba_jabba]

airline-command.blog_spot.com/

OK, for the above link to work take the _ out of the word blog_spot to make one word. I had to do this because this site wont allow it.

the site has some great articles about command issues.

but my advice is to know the SOP's, limitations of ur a/c, jeps requirments.

Also, if in doubt.... there is no doubt go the safest option. and slow it down man if need be :-)

[Grogmonster]

Alertaboy,

Ok he is some real world advice. Do not under any circumstances fly your Chieftain with 10 POB unless you are working over a very short sector. The reason being that unless your calculator is different to mine you will be grossly overweight. And don't be even thinking about using standard weights. Happy flying.

Groggy

[scroogee]

probably short sectors given the comment about 20+ take-off's and landings per day...

[Skynews]

I have to ask, Why do you have two pilots on a chieftain?

It's a single pilot machine.

[albertaboy]

We have Vortex generators which legally increase the gross from 7k to 7368lbs max T/O. Weight and balances are well within limits. Also we run it single pilot most of the time, but have it in our OC to run it two crew when needed. Many government contracts require 2 crew. This is where it gets challenging sometimes. Going from single pilot to two crew, back and forth multiple times a day is a little tricky, all part of the fun though. ;)

Thanks again to all for the words and the advised reading. I'll be checking them out asap.

Cheers

[Skynews]

For the contracts that require two crew, I suggest that what they really want is a second set of eyes and possibly to cover the case where the PIC becomes incapacitated.

I would not allow the guy in the right hand seat to take off or land as that would degrade safety.
Your company sops, will or at least should have the pilot monitoring, (the guy in the right seat) role.
Things like calling sustained errors in speed, altitude, tracking etc. Assisting with radio, briefing pax, but a low time, I assume endorsed pilot, flying leg for leg in a single pilot aircraft is not increasing safety.

Are the guys in the right seat being paid the same as the guys in the left?

[43Inches]

Assisting with radio, briefing pax, but a low time, I assume endorsed pilot, flying leg for leg in a single pilot aircraft is not increasing safety.

A lot of comments about a single pilot aircraft. What the flight manual requirement specifies is the minimum crew required for flight. You can have ten pilots (two flying an number of reliefs, observers, navigators etc..) on board the aircraft should you wish. Piper does not specify a command seat in the aircraft, however usually the left seat is the most suitable position.

When a pilot is training his trainer commands from the right seat usually.

A lot of PA31 especially the later models have fully duplicated controls and instrumentation similar to any larger multicrew aircraft. If the pilot on the right side is from an instructing background he may be more adept flying from that side.

In larger multicrew aircraft the FO usually always flies from the right hand seat so is this more dangerous?

Sector for sector enhances safety by keeping both pilots current on the handling and capabilities of the aircraft. If the pilot lacks experience make their sectors the easy ones perhaps, but to deny them flying if they are allowed to serves little purpose.

The main issue is that if the second pilot is not actively flying the aircraft is he then logging the hours as co-pilot, are they entitled to any hours?

When we operated charters two crew we flew sector for sector with each flying leg logged as command and the PNF just acted as an observer with no logged time, but it did count towards duty flight hours. Some of the very experienced pilots just opted to be observers the whole day and let the junior guy log all the time. If the other pilot lacked the required experience then ICUS was used.

Both pilots were paid the same rate.

[Skynews]

Read what he said.
He is worried about how far to let these guys go!

In "proper" multiple crew ops, the pilot in the right Gand seat is trained, checked, instrument rating checked, whether sim or in aircraft in that seat.

If both pilots are endorsed and checked in the left hand seat, that's where they should fly from. Alternate sector for sector.
Most airlines would not allow a pilot to fly from a seat they are not trained and checked to fly from, and that I believe, is as it should be.

If these guys are of such a standard that this guy needs guidance from a rumor network, then I doubt whether they should be flying the aircraft at this stage.
To put this into perspective, the people who want and pay for two pilots are paying for an improved level of safety not assisting with hour building or to see GA ops pretend they're an airline.
The safest way of operating is to monitor the fully trained pilot fly the aircraft from the seat he is trained and checked in, and here's a new idea, maybe they could learn something from the PIC :eek:

[43Inches]

In "proper" multiple crew ops, the pilot in the right Gand seat is trained, checked, instrument rating checked, whether sim or in aircraft in that seat.



Skynews,

What are multi-crew ops?

They are any operation involving more than one crew member.

Flight instruction/training is essentially a multi-crew operation, how much CRM and guidance on when to take-over do they get?

You are refering to airline operations with refined multicrew procedures and SOP. The guy in this situation sounds like charter with two pilots, he has not specified the level of training (or lack of) the pilots recieve. They could undergo training in right seat flying or not he has not specified.

Good on him for asking the question, even if it is a wind-up.

If the co-pilot is not safe to take-off and land in reasonable conditions he should not be employed in a flying position. If the conditions are to minima and marginal fly the sector yourself. Any captain who does not trust his opposite number to land an aircraft needs to have a sit down and chat with management about the issue so it can be resolved. A PA31 is not a hard aircraft to fly in good weather. I was flying one around single pilot at about 300 hours total time.

I know many airline pilots who would not be able to say the point they would take-over from a co-pilot other than when its unsafe, the command training usually does not cover this situation other than stateing if you need to then do it! Arresting control from a flying pilot due to unsafe flying, whether it be from the co-pilot or the captain is a big deal and should require a report on the exact nature of the event. Co-pilots actually need to ask this question to as they have the right to assume control if the captain tries something silly.

[frigatebird]

A lot of bigger singles and the lighter twins set up for Single-pilot ops. have the instruments, checklists, radar, GPS, etc, set up for viewing from the normal (left) pilots seat. You will have to make a call on how well the occasional pilot who is flying the sector at the time has easy access to all the information you have from your side as well. Have seen even experienced senior pilots and chief pilots, who put a low priority on the facilities provided to the right side rider on even regular two pilot RPT and extensive charter Ops. The other CRM experience will come with dedicated Multi-crew training, and knowledge of the appropriate sections of your Ops Manual procedures (if you have them), or of study of others procedures (if you company doesn't, - a pretty poor show on their behalf if that is the case, for this type of op). You definitely need an In-house standard, without having to trawl for advice on a Rumour site.

[albertaboy]

I can see by some of the responses to this thread that I perhaps wasn't clear enough on the advice I am seeking. I have gone through all the single pilot training, two crew training, SOP's, know the OPs spec's and details of the OC for our company aswell as the limitations of the plane. Numbers and regulations have all been part of the training.

I personally believe that to most effectively do my job, I must excell at more than just the air reg's, call outs and procedures. I must display qualities of safety, judgement and leadership. I won't find those in the back of any POH. Every step of my career I have asked for advice from those who have been there, and it has made all the difference so far.

[Widewoodenwingswork]

Hey ABboy. I have to ask, why did you post this on the D&G forum? I have to say, I think you may have reached the end of good advice. FWIW, you should lead by example. FO's can learn just as much through observation of a competent and confident Captain as any other method. Keep the lines of communication open and ensure they are free to voice their concerns. A good debrief at the end of the flight is equivalent to the advice in the air. Find yourself in Kamloops much perchance? Cheers.

[sru]

Canady eh?
I suggest you search for some wise words written by my old mate Duke Elegant. Nice :ok::ok::ok:

[RENURPP]

To answer the "proper" multi crew ops question, I would suggest it is when both the Captain and First Officer receive traning and checking spoecific to their role.

I suspect in this operation, in a single pilot aircraft that the company simply finds a pilot, maybe endorsed on type, maybe not and places him in the right hand seat to meet the contract requirements.

There is no such thing as a "First Officer" on a PA31.

I agree with Skynews, the mining companies or governement agencies are looking for a higher level of safety, not a training ground for inexperienced pilots to have a go.

let them have a fly en-route, let them use the radio, let them learn from watching, listen to them and discuss operational issues, BUT DON"T let them take off and land.

As for instructors, I have a considerable amount of time instructing and teaching inbstructor ratings and I can assure you they are trained when to take over. Its a completely different ball game.

[AerocatS2A]

Went to take over? When you feel that if the situation was allowed to continue, you would be uncomfortable with your ability to safely take control and recover the situation. The point that this occurs will vary. The more experience you have, the more comfortable you will be in slightly abnormal situations and you will be able to give the FO more opportunity to recover the situation themselves.

[Neptunus Rex]

When to take control? Well before your sphincter reaches F22!

[Centaurus]

If an FO does call you on a speed or tracking tolerance or points out you have made an error make sure it is clear you appreciate the input (no matter how stupid it may have been)

Not if the "support" calls are becoming irritating and simply not operationally required. Then bugger telling the chap you appreciate his input - that is being hypocritical. Have a firm word with him after landing.

[maverick22]

Can be equally annoying for an FO, to have a nervous captain riding them with advisory calls which are not required. Can put the FO on edge and make things worse. Had a capt do this to me in a sim and it just made the exercise a whole lot harder than it had to be. Thankfully the checkie saw what was going on and told said capt to give me a break!

[Roxy_Chick_1989]

I made captain! Now how can I be one?


Get 4 bars.

[frigatebird]

Saw a guy come in, in a Chieftain, last week, wearing four wide gold bars. Looked a bit top heavy. Must have reduced the payload a bit.. :rolleyes:

[compressor stall]

Always amuses me in a dark way why a government contract would require two crew for safety, yet are happy that the aircraft is 30 plus years old, made to lesser engineering safety standards than today, has vortex generators to lift that little bit more off the ground, but do not increase the safety in any way if one goes quiet at a bad moment. In fact these aircraft do not even need to be able to stop in the runway remaining OR climb out if one fails....

2 pilots - yup, much safer :rolleyes:

P.S. This not a dig at you Albertaboy...

[lemel]

I used to fly chieftains a few years ago. Some of the work we did required 2 crew. When we did these jobs we didnt treat it as a 2 crew operation, it was flown as a single pilot operation with the other pilot sitting in the copilots seat. On occasion they would work the radios. Both crew members were qualified to fly PIC on the aeroplane, so we would swap seats every sector so that we could each have a fly.

Bottom line, the chieftain is a single pilot aeroplane. If you are flying it as a two pilot operation then the company should really have some sort of SOP's in place. If there arent any SOP's then it will make it harder for you to determine when to take over or not.

I would set my own limits and stick to them. That way if the other pilot exceeds these, then you can take over. In the debrief you could explain the reason as to why you took over. Some examples of limits that I would set for myself are:
1) Rate of descent must not be in excess of 1000 fpm on finals
2) Final approach speed tolerance could be Vref + 10 and minus 0.
3) Tracking tolerance no more than half scale deflection for VOR/ILS or +/- 5 degrees for NDB.
4) Glideslope +/- 1 dot or PAPI no more than 3 reds/whites
4) Altitudes +/- 200 ft

Hope this helps.:ok: