Russian subs stalk Trident

[ORAC]

Russian subs stalk Trident in echo of Cold War (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/7969017/Russian-subs-stalk-Trident-in-echo-of-Cold-War.html)

Russian submarines are hunting down British Vanguard boats in a return to Cold War tactics not seen for 25 years, Navy chiefs have warned.

A specially upgraded Russian Akula class submarine has been caught trying to record the acoustic signature made by the Vanguard submarines that carry Trident nuclear missiles, according to senior Navy officers. British submariners have also reported that they are experiencing the highest number of "contacts" with Russian submarines since 1987.

If the Russians are able to obtain a recording of the unique noise of the boat's propellers it would have serious implications for Britain's nuclear deterrent. Using its sophisticated sonar, the Akula would be able to track Vanguards and potentially sink them before they could launch their Trident D4 missiles.

The Daily Telegraph has learnt that, within the past six months, a Russian Akula entered the North Atlantic and attempted to track a Vanguard. The incident has remained secret until now. It is understood that the Russians stood off Faslane, where the British nuclear force is based, and waited for a Trident-carrying boat to come out for its three-month patrol to provide the Continuous At Sea Deterrent.

While patrolling in the North Atlantic, there are a limited number of places the Vanguard is permitted to go and it is thought that the Akula attempted to track it on several occasions. Navy commanders are understood to have ordered a Trafalgar-class hunter-killer submarine to protect the Vanguard. A recording of the Akula was made by the Trafalgar submarine's sonar operators and has been played to The Daily Telegraph.

"The Russians have been playing games with us, the Americans and French in the North Atlantic," a senior Navy commander said. "We have put a lot of resources into protecting Trident because we cannot afford by any stretch to let the Russians learn the acoustic profile of one of our bombers as that would compromise the deterrent."

[green granite]

Russian subs stalk Trident

Well without the Mighty Hunter they are unhindered in their quest.

[Clever Richard]

The publication of this story has nothing to do with the SDSR, does it? Stand by for waves of Russian aircraft trying to enter UK airspace only to be turned away by Typhoon fighters.

Or am I being too cynical?

CD

[STN Ramp Rat]

It is understood that the Russians stood off Faslane,

has the journalist any idea where Faslane is? I cant see the Russians sitting in the Clyde for very long without anyone noticing, the North Channel, maybe !

[Tiger_mate]

Cynical - Probably justified.

However perhaps a timely reminder that if you are going to decimate UK Defence Plc then perhaps the chaps armed with the pens of destruction need to sit in their ivory towers with some distance away from being Afghan-centric and consider:

Defence of the Realm.
Obligations to UK worldwide responsibility. (Commonwealth?)
Commitments to UK Defence pacts. (NATO) (Euro?) (UN)

...and ensure above all else that Defence of the Realm is maintained with a satisfactory autonomous military capability. For if defence of the UK mainland is dependent upon any of our 'allies' we really have hit rock bottom, and are vulnerable:

[Ken Scott]

Perhaps those releasing this story are just trying to remind those busy sharpening the knives pre-SDR that defence is not just about Afghanistan. Defence of the UK, which is the primary role/ responsibility of the MOD/ Government, is what Trident/ QRA are about. Afghanistan, tanks, bombers, aircraft carriers etc are about offence, imposing our will on other countries, enabling the government to strut their stuff on the world stage/ UN Security Council etc, and as such should be regarded as a secondary role. That is why the SDR should be led by a Foreign Policy review and what role the UK should take in the world with regard to our current financial position, and not just be based on a targeted saving.

[glad rag]

That is why the SDR should be led by a Foreign Policy review and what role the UK should take in the world with regard to our current financial position, and not just be based on a targeted saving.


:D:D Ken, excellent :D:D

[Wander00]

KS - but that would be the logical and sensible way to go - so, whichever party in power, most unlikely. However, for what it is worth I endorse your view.

[Al R]

Clever Richard:The publication of this story has nothing to do with the SDSR, does it? Stand by for waves of Russian aircraft trying to enter UK airspace only to be turned away by Typhoon fighters.

Or am I being too cynical?

CD

Granted. But cynical or not, does the military having to remind us via these leaks about what is happening, make the case for proper defence any less valid? Isn't the fact we have to be reminded, more indicative of a lazy, celebrity obsessed / bandwagon jumping media and a news listless, attention-span deficit public, than it is, an indication that the underlying reason for the leak has merit?

[fincastle84]

Instead of the Nimrod maybe we can rely on the ASW expertise of our gallant European allies. Of course, the guys who were really good at it, the Dutch, like us also have zero MPA capability. :ugh:

[Squirrel 41]

Fin84,

Ah yes, the Dutch providing the exemplar of why you should never tempt the government with a "they want savings, but they'll never cut this, so we'll show them how clever we are" approach.

Oops. :hmm:

How are the Germans doing with the ex-Cloggie P-3s?

S41

[fincastle84]

How are the Germans doing with the ex-Cloggie P-3s?

Unfortunately I've been out of the loop too long to know the answer.

[airborne_artist]

It is understood that the Russians stood off Faslane, has the journalist any idea where Faslane is? I cant see the Russians sitting in the Clyde for very long without anyone noticing, the North Channel, maybe !

You'd be surprised where subs have got to in the last thirty years, both ours and thus possibly theirs. I can think of a few submarine COs with OBEs earned this way.

Why do you think we had an SK ASW squadron at Prestwick? They were there to screen the Faslane boats out into the N Atlantic.

[Spanish Waltzer]

Why do you think we had an SK ASW squadron at Prestwick? They were there to screen the Faslane boats out into the N Atlantic.

Ah...now ISTR we got rid of that a SDR or 2 ago because the merlin was considered faster & more capable in ASW than the SK & therefore we could do with less bases/airframes. That decision, from those who clearly understood ASW tactics better than the ASW specialists, that the RN would deploy a merlin as & when necessary to provide the screen, was implemented before the merlin had been fully proved or cost comparison undertaken.

Now we see the RN merlin fleet stretched, deployed to provide other capabilites in other parts of the world & very little in the way of real ASW. In fact interested to know whether the merlin crews even consider or train for ASW as a primary role any more??

With SARH proffing faster more capable, but fewer in number, platforms, now under review to establish if it could be done even cheaper, one wonders how many more times the wheel must turn before those that make decisions actually listen to those providing the capability currently and who know what they're talking about.

[Roadster280]

If the boats are still in Faslane, why are the ASW Sea Kings no longer there?

Edited to add: I was posting as the the answer to my question was being posted. Bugger!

[TheSmiter]

The Daily Telegraph has learnt that, within the past six months, a Russian Akula entered the North Atlantic and attempted to track a Vanguard.

Nimrod MR2 out of service 31Mar10 - 5 months

You couldn't make it up unless your name was Clancy!

Awesome story, Jack - perfectly timed to land on the National Security Council table in Sept! Nice one ;)

PS A recording of the Akula was made by the Trafalgar submarine's sonar operators and has been played to The Daily Telegraph.

Oh really? :rolleyes:

[Two's in]

Rules of Government Press Releases:

1. Establish who released it.
2. Determine what they stand to gain by releasing it.
3. Now understand what the Press Release was really about.

[fincastle84]

You'd be surprised where subs have got to in the last thirty years, both ours and thus possibly theirs.

I know exactly how close theirs got back in the 80s but if I told you I'd have to kill you! I well remember one panic when it got so busy that we finished up with the whole of 42 detached to ISK to give assistance. The scruff bar has never made so much money. At the end of det party Henry the Hoover burst his bag after 11 pints of heavy!

[PingDit]

I was on that one too Fincastle!
Pigs bar rarely closed I seem to remember :o)

[Shack37]

I know exactly how close theirs got back in the 80s but if I told you I'd have to kill you!

OK, I'll have a guess.........Findhorn Bay?

[Ian Corrigible]

...their Trident D4 missiles

Were the D-5s traded in as a cost-saving measure?

I/C

[Neptunus Rex]

Of all the tasks in the RAF and RN, ASW is the one that requires the most training, crew co-ordination and current practice. If the decision to double our ASW capability were taken today, it would take years for the new crews to achieve an appropriate level of expertise.
Ivan is certainly "avin' a laugh."

[fincastle84]

OK, I'll have a guess.........Findhorn Bay?

Well if the nucs had been based in Inverness then that could well have been true.

Pingdit

Pigs bar rarely closed I seem to remember

Obviously if you can remember then you obviously weren't there!

[The Old Fat One]

Reminds me of the Op started when a recently downbanded port beam operator called a "certsub" not a million miles from said naval base...

Oh how we laughed as the greens rolled in.

[Redcarpet]

Of all the tasks in the RAF and RN, ASW is the one that requires the most training, crew co-ordination and current practice
Is it Really ?!

[minigundiplomat]

Of all the tasks in the RAF and RN, ASW is the one that requires the most training, crew co-ordination and current practice.


You'll have no difficulty converting to SH in the next 18 months then......

[Ivan Rogov]

MPA to SH has been done quite a few times, however not many have managed the reverse............................:E

[minigundiplomat]

however not many have managed the reverse


Who would want to?

Pies in the oven, FLgodknows, fly around in circles. No wonder not many people have managed it, not many have ever been bothered.

[davejb]

f all the tasks in the RAF and RN, ASW is the one that requires the most training, crew co-ordination and current practice

Is it Really ?!

I suspect it is, actually, not least because it requires people to find extremely quiet things under the water where most non-acoustic sensors can't reach. This isn't intended to minimise the other roles required of sea and airborne units, but ASW is very difficult indeed to do properly, and the difference between good enough* and not good enough is paper thin.

Dave

*apologies to Boggy if he's reading this, I didn't mean him <g>

[Squirrel 41]

GC wrote:

Get rid of trident and problem solved!?!?!?

And he's closer than he may realise. Trident replacement requires SSBN build capability at Barrow - but we could buy SSNs from somewhere else (in Connecticut, possibly). So the cost of Trident should logically include a significant portion of the cost overruns on Astute that were all about buying the capability to build nuclear submarines rather than Astute herself. If SSBN is binned, then the need to have Barrow is binned too - making further savings possible.

The good news if this were to happen is that we'll be looking for a large number of certified nuclear engineers shortly for the next gen civil nuclear powerplants. Birds, stones.

S41

[changeitnot]

Big (re)learning curve to regain ASW proficiency for the MR2 crews on return from GW1, after only a 2 month det. I feel sorry for the folks that are still around that may or may not be asked to re-invent the wheel from scratch. What a sad state of affairs for an island nation to be in.

[covec]

Russian sub stalks Trident.....

Ba**s!

[subs57]

There was a Victor III skipper who back in the 80's was known as the Black Prince.

Couldn't help thinking that this Akula driver could be the "son of"

Are the AGI's still going about?

[charliegolf]

Quote:
Of all the tasks in the RAF and RN, ASW is the one that requires the most training, crew co-ordination and current practice.
You'll have no difficulty converting to SH in the next 18 months then......

Six four, thirteen and three quarters, clear above and behind."

Worked for me for 2 tours!

CG:ok:

[minigundiplomat]

Six four, thirteen and three quarters, clear above and behind."

Worked for me for 2 tours!

Must have been on Belvederes or something because I've got no idea what six four, thirteen and three quarters means.

[rockiesqiud]

MGD

Who would want to?

Pies in the oven, FLgodknows, fly around in circles. No wonder not many people have managed it, not many have ever been bothered

I'm going back MGD does that count?:confused:

[Tiger_mate]

I'm going back MGD does that count?

There is nothing to go back to. Though perhaps Nimrod 2000, a token fleet of just 4 airframes may pop up sometime around 2015.

Must have been on Belvederes or something because I've got no idea what six four, thirteen and three quarters means.

Not exactly Belvederes, nor IIRC a correct set of fiqures. In those days it would have been 12.25 without SLF (Normal Ops) and 15ish when "Heavy". (A rare occasion) Though in fairness, CG may be referring to metal rather then GRP in which case he is probably spot on.

...as for remuster to ISK :eek: Has anyone ever applied? Nearest I know of is Tom moving in permanently to the RCC, and thats only because he is a local.

[charliegolf]

TM

Never said it was correct, just that it got me by! (And it was a wee while back).

[Sempre 206]

F 84 said:

I well remember one panic when it got so busy that we finished up with the whole of 42 detached to ISK to give assistance.Suspect that was the time I had to seek the permission of the PMC to leave the table half-way through the Main Course.
I was still conducting briefings in Mess Kit at lunchtime the following day!

S206

[fincastle84]

I was still conducting briefings in Mess Kit at lunchtime the following day!

S206

That's the one! There was also a JMC taking place although the Nimrod involvement was somewhat reduced! Bogh flew back with my crew & we did a formation arrival back at St Mawgan c/s Chough formation!
Maybe if the Mk 4 eventually gets into service they'll let some of us OAPs have a go.

[minigundiplomat]

Rockiesquid,

there are reasons for that.

MGD

[goofer]

Of course, some of us T/A chaps remember when our Nimrod chums sent out the special "Stealth" variant at weekends and Christmas... (very effectively undetectable).

But we appreciated you all the same. Meanwhile, it's high time the Great Brit Public were told our island is in ASW peril. Again.

[rockiesqiud]

Rockiesquid,

there are reasons for that.

MGD


Thanks!!!:{

[davejb]

Of course, some of us T/A chaps remember when our Nimrod chums sent out the special "Stealth" variant at weekends and Christmas... (very effectively undetectable).


Plenty of Christmas and weekend flying done by Nimrods - perhaps you just couldn't find them?

[Lyneham Lad]

Quote:
Of course, some of us T/A chaps remember when our Nimrod chums sent out the special "Stealth" variant at weekends and Christmas... (very effectively undetectable).

Plenty of Christmas and weekend flying done by Nimrods - perhaps you just couldn't find them?

Has someone just had an irony bypass? :E

[fantom]

PingDit:


I was on that one too Fincastle!
Pigs bar rarely closed I seem to remember :o)


Well, you wouldn't have been far from the bar would you?

[Jayand]

Lots of people are hanging their hats on this and other stories to hopefully save the Nimrod, but lets not forget that Liam Fox has said "we need to move away from cold war thinking" and that certain capabilities will be lost that we have previously maintained for a long time!
If that Navy story isn't cold war thinking and the capability gap isn't ASW then I am very much mistaken.
Watch out chaps.

[barnstormer1968]

Jayand.

So, are you saying that the new trident boats (and thus trident) are going to be axed?

Cold war or not, it will be of no use to spend shed loads of cash on new subs, if they cannot make it safely out of port!

Subs and ASW go hand in hand, and one cannot exist without the other. Its a funny old world...We keep our carriers, but have no organic aircraft to fly from them, but scrap Nimrod, even though it can do its job, is paid for, and has crews/logistics in place.

[fincastle84]

There's nothing to worry about, after all we can always trust our honest, reliable, hard working politicians. I'm sure Dr Liam Fox is an expert on the protection of the nuclear deterrent!

[Dengue_Dude]

. . . they'll have a multi-coloured spreadsheet somewhere that indicates the balance of probabilities is that all the money on Defence is actually wasted.

Absolutely no real requirement for an MP aircraft (don't we live on an island?)

Of course, everything is OK . . . right up to the point when it isn't.

Hmmm, that seems familiar.

[davejb]

I can see how financial pain means we simply cannot afford the armed forces we have now, even though most people on here (at least) probably regard 'what we have now' as painfully short of what is needed.

It would be nice if somebody could persuade the government to carry out a review of their own thinking, along with the defence review...perhaps they might produce a fairly straightforward document in plain english that outlined what they themselves could commit UK forces to in the future. There's little point, in my mind, in deciding what forces we can afford if the politicians continue to expect those forces to punch above their weight having been pared to the bone.

I LIKE looking at CVs, but what's the point of a couple of carriers if you can't afford all the other ships you need to surround them with?

[Jayand]

Having a Nimrod is like having an insurance policy, what the politicians have got to decide is whether it is worth paying the premiums for something that is extremely unlikely to ever concievably be needed.
If you don't think you need it and the Navy say they can manage on their own (as they will be doing so as to protect their own kit) and the Airforce chiefs are willing to offer up a sacrificial lamb from outside the sharp and pointy fleets, then really the kipper fleet should be very worried!
I have heard all the arguments about Kinloss being leased land and too expensive to return to original state, have heard about the project already having been paid for etc, etc but all these things are insignificant to the powers that be.
Unfortunately the troubled recent history of the Mk2, the desperate cuts needed and the rhetoric about slashing legacy/cold war projects and capability all point towards the Nimrod and the chopping block to me.
I hope I am wrong but have a niggling feeling I am not.

[PingDit]

Fantom:

You know me so well!

Jayland:

Extremely unlikely that Nimrods will be needed?
COS recently flew in MRA4 apparently, and commented that it was without doubt his best ISTAR asset. I just hope he's managed to get the message across to the decision makers. Don't forget, only a small percentage of Nimrod tasking is ASW, albeit protection of our SSBN's is their highest priority.

[Jayand]

Was this a secret "recent" flight? as no MRA 4 has been flying recently, that I know of anyway:confused:
Pingdit, the ASW tasking is the only thing that can save them as there are other platforms that can, and are carrying out the other ISTAR tasks just fine.

Sar however is another matter but I don't think anyone at MOD or the treasury gives a **** about that.

[TBM-Legend]

Hand over all ASW assets to the Navy and let them get on with it. Same in Oz...

[fincastle84]

Hand over all ASW assets to the Navy and let them get on with it. Same in Oz...

So have 10 & 11 Sqn's P3s been transferred from the RAAF to the RAN?

[Wensleydale]

The evidence points to just one thing....

Gov't will not fund Trident replacement unless out of current MOD Budget.
Allows them to blame military if deemed too expensive against desired military capability.
Save £24 Bn.

No Trident - no Nimrod replacement needed.
Save cost of Nimrod MR4

No MR4 - Close ISK
Save more money.

Need a surface picture?
Use Sentry - funded because Sentry is a NATO commitment.

SAR Top cover - contract out with rest of SAR cover.

ASW for fleet - Use RN helos.

Or am I off the mark?

[Jayand]

We will soon see, I doubt that Trident will go just the insurance policy of ASW cover from the Nimrod.

[fincastle84]

Or am I off the mark?

That comment could be described as a MAD Mark! :O

[Wingedplumber]

Who's mark?

[Mad_Mark]

You called? :ok:

People need to remember that MPA don't only do ASW. There are a lot of other vital tasks for an MPA, especially for an island nation like ours!

MadMark!!! :mad:

[davejb]

Trident and previous weapons of that ilk are political devices, and should be considered seperately from the mundane stuff that goes thud, bang and whizz... the government should fund it seperately IF they wish to retain the capability, as it's the politicians who will decide if and when to employ it.

Then give the armed forces the cash they need to do the job they are told to do with conventional weapons. I don't really give a hoot about SSBNs, simply because our conventional forces are becoming so tiny that nobody would need to go nuclear to push us aside anyhow...when your response is limited to nuking the opposition or doing nothing you've lost anyway.

[Biggus]

Jayand,

Reference your post 55....

First of all PingDit got it wrong, it was CAS, not COS, that flew in an MRA4. As to when, and proof.....

The July 2010 edition of Frontline, a BAE Systems glossy newspaper, has, on its centre pages, a picture of CAS in a flying suit, with a Nimrod MRA4 (with an "A" on its nose) in the background. The caption says that CAS had just flown in "....the first production MRA4.....".

I have no reason to doubt the veracity of this article. As it is in the July addition, and given lead times for articles generally, I would surmise that the flight took place somewhen in the first half of the year.

[Ivan Rogov]

Let's face it none of us knows what the SDSR will bring. For too many years we (Kinloss) have been guilty of hiding behind the SSBN requirement, under the illusion that it was a cast iron reason to keep MPA.
Canada, New Zealand, South Korea, Japan, Norway, Italy, Spain, Portugal, India, Pakistan, Argentina, Nigeria, Turkey, Singapore, Indonesia, Ireland, Mexico, UAE, Algeria, Brazil, Chile, Poland, Iran, Sweden, Peru, Thailand, Australia, Germany, Greece, Taiwan, Israel, Denmark, Egypt, South Africa, Oman, etc. don't have SSBN but they all have MPA.
As has been mentioned before, we (Kinloss) have historically remained tight lipped about our roles (quite rightly), most onlookers assumed we just did ASW which kept us out of the spotlight and have taken this to mean we weren't/aren't doing anything else, hopefully this is being addressed at a level where it matters.
70% of the world is ocean, MPA is the most effective way to dominate it, oh and it also operates over the other 30% :E

[Jayand]

Hang on a minute, some of those nations have a very limited, somewhat loosely termed MPA capability. We could, post SDSR fly half a dozen islanders fitted with EO and a half decent off the shelf radar and call it an "MPA", We know it would be BS but no worse than some just mentioned!
The roles that we do that aren't spoke about much, who's doing them just now? and thats exactly my point.
many of the roles are being carried out by other platforms quite happily and some others are being taken on risk, the government and the Head honcho's at MOD might just decide to carry on taking it on risk.

When was the last time an MRA 4 got airborne ? somebody on here must know, whats the big secret? I know it's embarrasing but really where is the project just now? the silence is deafening!

[Ivan Rogov]

Nice try, but all those nations operate more than islanders fitted with an EO turret and radar. Granted a couple don't operate large fleets of long range aircraft (because their AOR doesn't require it), but they all dedicate a decent percentage of their defence budget to them and many are trying to improve. Even in homeland defence we have a million square miles of ocean to look after, the most effective and efficient way to do that is with long range MPA.

As for the rest, it is unfair to ask questions you know cannot be answered here. If you are really interested submit an FOI.

[AR1]

Saw a Nimrod or two working fairly hard of the Kintyre Peninsular while the Stingray trials we on early 80's.
Coincidence?

[Jayand]

The million square miles you refer to is a SAR commitment is it not?
And I am quite sure there is nothing secret about where the MRA 4 project is, it is hugely overbudget, extremely late and nowhere to be seen.
Every few weeks guys are told it will be here by date X only for it to slip yet again, there are a lot of mushrooms at Kinloss just now and the Farm has been closed for a few years.

[TEEEJ]

Jayand wrote

When was the last time an MRA 4 got airborne ?

The enthusiasts at Warton have noted a few ground runs of ZJ514 during August.

FighterControl &bull; Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast &bull; View topic - log for August,2010 (http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=15522&start=40)

Recent post Fri Aug 27th

'The Nimrod ZJ 514 A was due to fly today but was cancelled.'

Some interesting angles on the MRA4s at Woodford

AVIATION NORTH-WEST - WOODFORD - NIMROD (http://www.edendale.co.uk/ANW/WFD.801.11.html)

TJ

[ShortFatOne]

Just 'cos the Waddo mafia claim to be able to do all the Nimrod jobs between them does not actually make it true.

One of the most worrying aspects of all Defence Reviews is the increase in wildly inflated claims of capability whenever a platform feels threatened (and I include Nimrod in that). The BIG difference with Nimrod is that it proved, day in and night out, it could do the job. Everyone else just claims to be able to do it.

Whether or not MRA4 can do what MR2 did, only time will tell. But the initial indications are that, given the same level playing field everyone else seems to get, MRA4 will prove itself and then some.

And CAS definitely flew MRA4 earlier in the year, I watched him doing so from the jump seat 4 feet behind him. But whilst he was impressed with the flight deck, it was the integrated mission system and sensors that really got his attention (and gets everybody else's when they see it in the flesh).

At the end of the day the politicos will have the final say. If an Island nation chooses to abandon the protection of its SLOCs, abrogate its IMO SAR responsibilities, neglect its deterent's primary protection asset and genuinely does not want to continue with a platform that will form the central plank of CISTAR aspirations, then I would suggest that that country's political and military leadership really ought to decide what it is trying to achieve, who it is trying to protect and why.

If they do decide to bin MRA4, They won't have to worry about me, as I will have left to find a country of residence that still understands defence is not a cheap or optional requirement (not sure where that may be, but anywhere has to be better than watching the country and service you have spent 26 proud years serving disappearing up its own chuff). :sad:

[kilomikedelta]

If one assumes that the defensive (or offensive) forces of any nation exist at the pleasure of that nation's current government, I think it would be incumbent on critics of government defense policy to try to recruit support within the very much larger constituency of non-military personnel. Arguments replete with acronyms and parochial idiom (Waddo, CAS, COS) are meaningless to potential supporters for their cause. The committed preach to the committed and dismiss those who live outside of their cloister as non-professionals. There are many whose professions are in other fields but have a strong interest in defense matters. Given the ungrammatical and shallow verbiage of many of the contributions to this thread, observers of it might conclude that the commentators are Neanderthal yobs who are only interested in their approaching pensions. I don't believe they are but it might be of great benefit to their cause if they expressed themselves in standard English.

[John Eacott]

If the boats are still in Faslane, why are the ASW Sea Kings no longer there?

Not necessarily Sea Kings, but why isn't there a rotary ASW cover out of Prestwick? The thread is dealing with FW assets (or lack of) but the task of 819 was to sanitise the area for the boats leaving Faslane: a much better idea, I would have thought. If you're going to send out an enormously expensive piece of kit for 6+ weeks and are concerned about it being shadowed from the departure point, then make sure that it isn't shadowed by going back to the 819 concept.

[Biggus]

KMD,

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. This is a military aviation website, and although viewable by the general public, is not designed to be a place to make statements to gain public support. Rather it is where (mainly) current and ex military aviators exchange news, information and yes, opinions. I'm sure if you visted a doctors or nuclear physicists website it would be equally full of jargon. If I am going to write something intended for the wider public I will use more appropriate wording to match my target audience, and I wouldn't post it on pprune..... :)

The military, as I'm sure many other organizations are, is full of TLAs - try watching the start (or indeed all) of the Renaissance Man with Danny Devito.
We use them without thinking.

Are we supposted to explain what an F-18 is, an MPA, SSN, SSBN, F-35, JSF, etc? Where does it stop?

If you really want to know what a TLA, or other phrase, means then either simply ask (in the miltary we often say there is no such thing as a stupid question), or use your initiative as we often say to the 'wannabes'. As for your own queries, try using google to search for:

CAS RAF
COS RAF
Waddo RAF
TLA

and all will be revealed. CAS also has at least 2 common meanings in the RAF, normally it is obvious from the rest of the sentence which meaning is intended, which is unfortunately also the case with far too many TLAs these days :ugh:



Oh, and in the military we say the troops are normally happy provided you don't mess with their food, pay and leave. Pensions come under the heading of pay - so most military people do take an active interest in their pensions!!


Maybe I should change my user name to "neanderthal"? :)

[andrewn]

TJ wrote:

Recent post Fri Aug 27th

'The Nimrod ZJ 514 A was due to fly today but was cancelled.'

And isn't that the most worrying aspect to this that the a/c appears ready and able to fly but is deliberately being held back for some reason?

Time will tell I guess....

[Jabba_TG12]

Well, if you dont like it, KMD, what the hell are you doing here?


The door is that way >>>>>>>>


Dont let it hit you on the arse on the way out, theres a good chap. :=

[Fafner shim]

kilomikedelta can KMA.

Look, the MRA 4 is not just a bloody Sub Hunter! The fact that it can and will do it as good, if not better than the MR2 is just one of the many feathers in its cap.
I suggest that some people on this forum read FASOC and note that MRA4 ticks the majority of the boxes whilst certain other platforms are left wanting.

Would someone please publish a certain Photo that a previous CAS wanted destroyed because it would threaten the rationale of having so many fast shiny static displays.

If MRA 4 is sacrificed then it will be a disaster not just for the RAF but all three services. I am FAA (and proud of it) and its noticeable that the capabilities of MR2/MRA4 are more appreciated and respected within the true Maritime community and the pongoes than within its own force.

Rant over, looking forward to some cutting replies but in the meantime I am off to the Horse and Jockey for a Pasty !

[whiskers123]

I take it you're referring to the picture with 4 Storm Shadows on the wing pylons? Wonder what else could fit into the bomb bay? Moving on, the sensor-to-shooter loop would be a case of "Nav, EO, target..." - pretty quick I imagine!

Whilst Waddington have been selling themselves as Combat ISTAR pretty heavily, they're missing a trick - MRA4 can find targets and, given time and funding, can kill them too without needing another platform to act as weapons carrier.

[Party Animal]

I take it you're referring to the picture with 4 Storm Shadows on the wing pylons? Wonder what else could fit into the bomb bay? Moving on, the sensor-to-shooter loop would be a case of "Nav, EO, target..." - pretty quick I imagine!

W123,

Unless you have a former AEO in the Tacco 2 seat - in which case the i/c chat would be: Nav, EO, Tacco 2 - 365 degrees at 9 and a half knots, target!

FWIW, the weapons architecture is based on the F18 Weapons Control System and the datbus and wiring means that a huge plethora of weapons could potentially be carried. It would be great if someone could find the photo referred to above?

[Biggus]

I had been pointing out for years that it was MRA4, not MR4, and the "A" could provide massive opportunities for the RAF. Compare the potential weapons load and loiter time for 4 GR4s and a tanker vs one MRA4.....

I originally saw one major problem, but as I see it now there are two. First of all, with only 9 airframes compared to the original planned 21, there will probably never be enough MRA4s to provide any for a dedicated attack role. That is the new problem....

Secondly, without deliberately being disrespectful to the maritime world, overcoming the Nimrod mafia's maritime mindset. Having said that, this might well not be an issue. The MR2 community seemed to adapt readily enough to the overland role in the latter years of the fleet - mind you, I bet the MRA4 opens its bomb doors at the same distance as the MR2, which I was told (urban myth?) was a throw back to the Sunderland, and the amount of time (and therefore distance) required to wind the depth charges out from the fuselage to underneath the wings.....

I guess, as has already been pointed out, overcoming the FJ mafia vested interests would also have been a major issue!

[Neptunus Rex]

If and when all nine MRA4s become operational, it won't be long before Ivan sends a planned series of submarines south, at suitable intervals, to test the reaction and endurance of the MRA4 fleet. By endurance I mean the ability to maintain continuous coverage in the operational area.

"May you live in interesting times."

[Roland Pulfrew]

Would someone please publish a certain Photo that a previous CAS wanted destroyed because it would threaten the rationale of having so many fast shiny static displays.


This one?

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x133/RolandPulfrew/MRA4CombatISTAR2.jpg

[Joe Black]

Excellent picture....that's what I call REAL potential future combat ISTAR!

[Party Animal]

Thank you RP - are you able to send it via finger trouble/accident to the outer office of Dr Fox?

[Neptunus Rex]

Some years ago, when an Australian politician stated in the House that the F111 was obsolete, useless and should be scrapped, a mission was planned and executed.
The very next day, a courier delivered a set of photos to the polly himself. It showed his office building, in ever increasing detail, with the final shot being his own office window neatly adorned by crosshairs! The F111 soldiered on for many more years.

[Fafner shim]

Nice one RP. There is another with the whole inventory lined up ready to go in the Bomb bay but this picture does get the message accross in terms of potential. With regards to the "Maritime Mafia" comment, the Nimrod guys I work with are anything but.

Right, thats enough blowing sunshine up the RAFs arse, its about time you started blowing your own trumpet and appreciate whats just round the corner with this NEW platform.

[Frustrated....]

Nice photo but....

Just because an aircraft can bolt a particular weapon under it's wings or in the bomb bay doesn't mean to say it can actually carry it in flight. Although the MR2 could carry harpoon, I understand that weapon clearances on MRA4 have concentrated on the ASW weapon.

Granted, given a large amount of cash you will be able to clear storm shadow, but you will need to jump through a lot of hoops first. These will include:

1. Aerodynamic modelling for carraige and separation.
2. Structural instrumentation to see how the weapon impacts the wing bending moments in flight throughout the flight envelope.
3. Actual separation trials with inert and live weapons.

However, there are a couple of minor hiccups to this option besides the actual expense of the computer modelling and flight trials:

1. PA1 was the only structurally instrumented MRA4 which is no longer flying. Alternatively, you can instrument a production aircraft.

2. Hanging weapons under the wings negatively impacts lateral stability of the aircraft. Historically even the MR1 had to undergo modifications from the Comet namely the fin fillet to improve the lateral stability due to the negative impact of the large bomb bay doors. Looking at MRA4 photos with all the extra fillets added to the tailplane there may not be enough of a postive margin to the lateral stability to be able to carry underwing stores without redesigning the tail assembly.

On the positive side, given enough cash anything is possible.

Frustrated....

[Thelma Viaduct]

I'm sure there are other large aircraft in the current & future fleet that could carry much more than 4 x SS given the funding.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/foas/images/foas5.jpg

[Jayand]

The idea that CAS was worried about pictures of Nimrod showing potential ordanace fits is laughable!
Are we to believe that the future of fast jet offensive platforms was really being put in jeopardy by a fleet of 9 nimrods (14/16 early on)?
So as well as doing their ASW and ASUW tasks they were going to do their other irreplaceable jobs as well as SAR, air defence, SEAD, deep strike, close air support etc?
Busy lot aren't they????
Nobody can blame the "Kinloss mafia" for fervently fighting their corner but just because you don't want it to happen doesn't mean it shouldn't or wont.
If they keep the new rod what odds on it being based at the home of ISTAR waddo?

[Biggus]

Pious,

The difference being that the MRA4 already has the pylons, wiring and software installed - I believe it is already "capable" of dropping most stores in the NATO inventory. It is thus already much further down the line (especially cost wise) than the C-130 you picture as an alternative. It was designed to do this stuff from the outset....hence the "A" in MRA4.

As has been pointed out, carriage and release trials haven't been done for anything other than ASW weapons (to the best of my limited knowledge?), due to a lack of time, money and probably intended useage by the RAF.....



Jayand,

As I see it, in this era of belt tightening the RAF can't afford to keep an airfield open for 9 aircraft. Therefore either more assets need to be moved to Kinloss (and I don't mean 2 yellow helicopters) or the MRA4 (if we get them) need to move elsewhere. However, that is just my personal opinion. Closing a base also doesn't save money in the short/medium term - try following the discussions on Lyneham closure and the move to Brize on another thread.....

[WasNaeMe]

MRA4 has no plyons....

[XV666]

MRA4 has no plyons....

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x133/RolandPulfrew/MRA4CombatISTAR2.jpg

Wot's them things under the wings?

[Biggus]

I guess it has hardpoints, to which pylons can be attached if/when required......? As opposed to permanent pylons?

As I said, my personal knowledge is limited!

[Ivan Rogov]

Regardless of the wings the bomb bay could carry many weapon types without any stability issues. This thread covered it earlier this year

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/401549-nimrod-strategic-cas-platform.html

We do need to replace harpoon though, it's capability against any modern warship must be quite poor when compared to other systems. Joint Strike Missile for example will be multi role, available soon, much more effective and you could probably fit a few in the MRA4 bomb bay if it's designed to fit in the F-35 weapon bay. Anyone know if the Navy are looking to replace ship launched Harpoon, if so with what?

[WasNaeMe]

Re MRA4 & weapons carried. All you need to know is here...

RAF - Nimrod MRA4 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/nimrodmra4.cfm)

"...The MRA4 has the potential to carry an extensive range of weapons and equipment in the bomb bay. Weapons management will be conducted via a stores management system, which carries out inventory tracking control, air-to-air and air-to-sea weapon control, and built-in test and fault diagnostic systems."

[Jayand]

Hmmm, do you always believe everything you read?
Bloody thing was meant to be operational years ago according to that same source!

[Neptunus Rex]

The Nimrod Mk 2 was the first and only aircraft capable of taking on targets air-to-air (Sidewinder) air-to-surface (Harpoon) and air to sub-surface (Homing Torpedoes.) Nothing else comes close.
The MRA4 will have all three, but enhanced, capabilities, should it get to he front line.
We just need more than nine, eh Fin!

[fincastle84]

Absolutely agree NR. My worry, along with many other loyal fish heads, is that we may finish up with 0 Nimrods. At which time I cancel my long term membership of the Conservative party.

PS You go to bed late!

[QTRZulu]

Hmmm, do you always believe everything you read?

Usually not when I see your name next to the post :hmm:

[Jayand]

I am not the one pushing glossy magazine fantasy propaganda.

[QTRZulu]

I am not the one pushing glossy magazine fantasy propaganda.Are you sure about that as you seem to be pushing Waddo as the center of the RAF quite strongly.

Unfortunately the troubled recent history of the Mk2, the desperate cuts needed and the rhetoric about slashing legacy/cold war projects and capability all point towards the Nimrod and the chopping block to me.This could equally apply to the assets at Waddo, all of whom have had issues over the years. Its a given that the R1 will be gone within a few months and Sentinel is surely one of the legacy/cold war projects you mention. If this were to be the case, why not the opposite of what you propose

If they keep the new rod what odds on it being based at the home of ISTAR waddo?Move whats left upto Kinloss. The station has a newer infratructure and could easily accomodate a few E3's and a couple of Shadows.

there are a lot of mushrooms at Kinloss just now and the Farm has been closed for a few yearsHaving served at both bases I would say the opposite is true. There were far more people at Waddo who refused to accept there was an Air Force outside of RAF Lincolnshire than people at Kinloss who refused to move down south.

The bottom line is, both Stations should be looking over their sholders very carefully as neither know what the future holds. I would love to see both come through the next few months unscathed, but sadly from the tone being set by the politicians something big is going to go. We can argue the pros and cons for every platform, but in the end it will do no good as money will more than likely drive the final decisions and not any real capability requirement.

[Jayand]

Your quite right they could cut the kit at waddo although I think the E3 has a Nato committment and would therefore probably dodge the bullet, they won't bin the sentinel as it is serviceable, in service and paid for.
I am not pushing anything but am being quite open in my thinking and just trying to second guess what may happen, not what I want to happen.
It's no secret in the ISTAR community that the powers that be would love a single base, Waddington is central, close to the linguist schools, Wsop training at Cranwell and has no geese at the end of the runway. Perhaps crucially the local government is winnable by the tories in any election whereas Moray is not!
The mushrooms I was refering to are the guys and girls based at Kinloss who like mushrooms are being kept in the dark and fed on **** about the MRA 4.

[Roland Pulfrew]

are being kept in the dark and fed on **** about the MRA 4.

Care to expand on that comment?

Who else is in the dark? I would suggest just about everyone in the RAF below the rank of 3*!:rolleyes:

[QTRZulu]

Apologies - took the mushroom quote out of context but I can see your standpoint on this. This I think is a station issue - either that or the execs have excellent poker faces and knowing many of them as I do, I think they would tell us if they had anything to tell.

The argument about having your ISTAR hub close to the training schools is pretty irrelevant to be honest. If this was such a consideration why do we have Valley? OK its out of the way and the airspace is favorable but its a pain to get to, so I dont really think that having centralised training and operational bases will factor into it. We managed for years without everything in a 20 mile radius and in my opinion it makes no sense to go down that route now. The skies above lincolnshire are busy enough already - we really should not be looking to add to it!

As for Sentinel, was it not Liam Fox who said they would look at all platforms and decide if the had a future. Sentinel is niche in its role and still finding its feet in many respects so I don't think it will be ringfenced. The money it cost to get into service has come and gone, what will be important is how much can be saved should they decide its for the chop!

In that respect, I don't think anything is safe across the Armed Forces this Autumn

[sargs]

QTRZulu:


Sentinel is niche in its role and still finding its feet in many respects so I don't think it will be ringfenced


Niche in its role? I take it from that comment that you understand exactly what it does. As to finding its feet, the MOD website recently announced that ASTOR has passed 2500 hours of support provided to Op Herrick - sounds like an established capability to me. For what it's worth though, I'm sure it's as much in the mix as anything else when it comes to SDSR.

[Jayand]

Roland your right EVERYONE is in the cross hairs, but I think the guys at Kinloss have been in the dark for long time over the very troubled project that is the MRA 4, the SDSR might just pull the coverted rug from under them after they have waited and agonised already for so long.
All the while the progress or lack of it with the project is just drip fed along with rumor and counter rumor.
Hence my mushroom analogy.

[sargs]

Jayand


pull the coverted rug from under them


This will be one of those special Maritime Rugs then.....?

[Biggus]

sargs,

I know no more of detailed operations of the Sentinel than you can read in open forums, e.g

PICTURES: RAF marks Sentinel, Shadow surveillance aircraft milestones (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/03/346988/pictures-raf-marks-sentinel-shadow-surveillance-aircraft.html)

I know that the Sentinel is out in the 'Stan, but how effective is it out there? Is it there partly because we have it, and partly to justify its existence. It was designed to locate and track the movement of armoured columns of a conventional army, is it now being used to track small illicit arms shipments in Afghanistan....? How well can it do that task, and how important is it?

Is the american E-8 J-STARs out there? If not, then why not? Is Sentinel better, as a more modern platform, or is a JSTARS type capability not actually vital in theatre?

I guess (know?) the questions I am asking are of too classified a nature to generate a response. My only point is, just because its in Afghanistan doing a job, I don't consider it to be safer than most other platforms.


Edited to add, looks like JSTARS may be going soon, if this is to be believed (it is wiki...)

E-8 Joint STARS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-8_Joint_STARS)

[QTRZulu]

Biggus

I was looking for a way to express what you have so clearly done without letting any cats out of the bag. Thanks

Bottom line is that we are all cogs in a very big wheel and we all have a part to play, but there are no sacred cows (other than Trident!) in the up coming SDSR, so as far as I'm concerned all bets are off and every platform is fair game.

You don't have to like it or agree with it, but its the reality that we are now left with.

[Party Animal]

Jayand,

Returning to your earlier comment:

I am not the one pushing glossy magazine fantasy propaganda.

If your referring to the RAF article on the MRA4 - exactly what part of it do you consider to be fantasy and what part propaganda? Knowing the aircraft as I do, it looks like a well balanced piece of work - and no, I had no part in writing it whatsoever...

[Jayand]

I havn't even read said article as I won't learn anything new to be honest, my obvious cynicism comes from many years of experience.
Seldom do the glossy brochures actually match the real hardware.

[Jayand]

Ok just read it and perhaps I will admit that it isn't too glossy or bigging up the platform too much.
One major issue though
" The Nimrod MRA4 enters service with the RAF in 2010"
Oh dear there goes a two ship past my window oink oink.

[MATELO]

Wot's them things under the wings?
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=5908024) http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5908024&noquote=1)

Fuel tanks.

Errr sorry... I mean Stormshadow....

No... what I meant was TLAM

[QTRZulu]

I may be a little out on dates but I think 'A' was formally accepted in March/April this year by the MoD.

That does mean that it officially entered service in 2010. However my definition of 'in service' is obviously way off what the MoD definition is.

[Neptunus Rex]

To have any real meaning, "entered service" should mean operationally capable, in the hands of a front-line, fully qualified crew; nothing less.

[OpsLoad8]

"To have any real meaning, "entered service" should mean operationally capable, in the hands of a front-line, fully qualified crew; nothing less."

Maybe but that is just not the ideal way things are.

And yet in the case of HMS Astute which was commissioned last month, according to the 1st SL, “Today is an important milestone along the road to full operational capability which will follow after a further series of demanding seagoing trials testing the full range of the submarine’s capabilities”.

What is the difference?

The only one that springs to mind is that the PR machine for the Dark Blue is much much better than the one employed by the Light Blue.

[Siggie]

Rant mode on:

The debate about 'entered service' dates is probably more suited to the corridors of the MOD and Westminster, where such weasel words and sentiments usually abound.

The trainers, crews and maintenance personnel at Kinloss have no airframes yet.

That is an absolute fact.

The fact that an airframe was handed over for a day, then given back to the company and has still, to the best of my knowledge, not been released to service does not mean it is in service.

Even if MOD/Government spin suggests otherwise.

Rant Mode off:

Good luck to the gals and guys at Kinloss; I hope the base, aircraft and personnel all escape the cuts.

[TEEEJ]

Jayand wrote

When was the last time and MRA 4 got airborne?

The Warton based MRA4, serial ZJ514, flew today.

FighterControl &bull; Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast &bull; View topic - Nimrod MRA4 (http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=287&t=14619&start=80)

TJ