Generic check lists - logical or illogical?

[Tee Emm]

For over 40 years student pilots have been taught a generic before landing drill at flying schools all around Australia. It goes something like this:

Brakes.
Undercarriage ...down and locked
Mixtures...Rich
Masters....On
Magnetos..Both
Fuel....Both or as required pumps on
Oil Temps and Pressures....In the Green
Harness and Hatches...Secure.

Notice that there is no mention of "Seats Secure" a vital action which is included in the Cessna 172 Pilots Information Manual.

and on final approach: the well known PUF checks
.
Pitch...Fine
Undercarriage... down and locked
Carburettor Heat...Off
Flaps.......Down.

It is quite amazing how these particular drills have stood the test of time and are still used extensively around Australia. It certainly says something for standardization. One wonders how these drills were disseminated around all the Australian flying schools, because one thing is for sure, and that is most of them are superfluous and that means talking for the sake of talking.

Most of these are not included in the aircraft manufacture's published Pilot Information Manuals because the manufacturer's recommended cockpit checks are type specific. Same with airliners. There are no generic cockpit drills in airliners.

Instructor trainees are taught the same mantra and they in turn pass this down to their students. Time passes, and these students may themselves one day choose to fork out big bucks for an instructors course. And so like some sort of aviation DNA, the BUMMMFTPF (or whatever) and PUF, is passed down the line. And this has been going on for years and years and years. It is called Progress:ok:

It makes you wonder at the system of training when after 40 years, current flying schools still teach a generic downwind leg drill - rather than a type specific pre-landing drill. The Before Take Off drill is also taught as a generic drill rather than type specific. HTMMPFF etc etc.

For example, the manufacturers Pilot Information Manual for the Cessna 172N (a common trainer around the traps) states the Before Landing Checklist as :

Seats, Belts, Harnesses....Secure.
Fuel Selector Valve....Both
Mixture....Rich.
Carburetor Heat...On (apply full heat before reducing power)
Autopilot (if installed)''....Off
Air Conditioner (if installed)....Off.

Assuming very few C172N aircraft have autopilots and air conditioners, this reduces the Before Landing drills to four items. Yet when the generic checklist items are counted there are a minimum of twelve if you count the final approach PUF.

I am sure every pilot who recalls the days he learned to fly will remember the difficulty of remembering a lengthy downwind generic check. Situational awareness goes out the door and this can lead to failure to concentrate on circuit width and looking around for other circuit traffic. All because of too much rote talking of checks that don't really apply.

A classic example of a superfluous rote downwind drill is the check of "Undercarriage ..Down and Locked" when the aircraft is a fixed gear type.

The usual reason given by the instructor is that one fine day you will fly an aircraft with a design feature of retractable landing gear. And that this drill in a fixed landing gear type will automatically prepare the student to get in the groove for that design feature. In turn you are less likely to forget to lower the gear. That's the popular theory, anyway. The fact that before flying something with a retractable landing gear you have to undertake a Special Design Feature course on that aircraft type, is conveniently side-stepped.

Logical? I don't think so - if only that no one ever teaches the student to say "Undercarriage ....Up after take off." If it is good enough to say Undercarriage ..Down and Locked, before landing in a fixed gear type, then logic would suggest that part of the After Take off Check should be called as "Undercarriage.. Up" in a fixed gear type. Mind you, few flying school instructors teach a specific after take off checklist

Finally, isn't it curious that the long taught generic downwind check uses the term "Undercarriage" - which is a British term - when most American built types have "Landing Gear?" Maybe it is because the 40 year old generic checklist still used at practically all flying schools was based upon the preponderance of British built aircraft of the era.

With the introduction of modern and often glass-cockpit types into the more expensive flying schools, perhaps the time is well overdue for a modern approach to cockpit checks. By that I mean do away with superfluous and non-essential checks that have been part of the flying school teachings for decades - and stick to checks specific to the aircraft type.

If nothing else, it might encourage pilots to study more closely the manual for each aircraft they fly - rather than an attitude of "She'll be right, Mate - I'll use BUMFO because that's all I have ever known:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Nope! I learned the following some 37 years ago.

Downwind:
Undercart
Brakes
Mixture
Pitch
Fuel
Fuel pump
Flap
Harnesses
Lookout

Final:
Rich
Fine
Green

So far it has served me well for everything up to C402/PA31.

Dr :8

[poteroo]

I'm with you TeeEm.

Teaching students to check non-existentitems is just 'make work' stuff - which Australia's bureaucracy loves us for.

Type specific it is.

happy days,

[PyroTek]

I was taught the generic model of thought:
"Brakes
Undercarriage - down&locked
Mixture Rich
Fuel on and Sufficient (for a go-around - the bit I don't understand, I'm sure you are trying for the best landing possible, if you have no fuel to go around, what's the point? - anyway, cessna fuel gauges don't actually work - Edit: They work, but aren't all that readable - due to the fact they move as the fuel moves around the tank - They show a generalised estimate of the amount of fuel in the tanks - this is what planning is for:ok:)
Harnesses secure (I'm assuming they don't include seats locked because at some point in the flight, especially take-off, the seats will probably lock in to place anyway - I check its locked prior to take-off and also whenever I adjust it)
Hatches secure/locked etc.

and on final:
Pitch - fine
Undercarriage - down&locked
Flaps
Flaps (Cowl)

I mean, I think the idea of teaching students a generic pre-landing checklist is to make them aware of what to look out for - even if it doesn't exist. After I-Don't-Know-How-Many landings, it is easy to do the generic check - without much thought about the process, just checking the individual things are looking/feeling right.

Even in the Cub, I go
"Brakes - yep
Undercarriage - "still there, cool!"
Mixture - "Mixture fixed at rich (with the cub I fly, mixture control disabled)"
Flaps - "Tell other person to deal with the flaps and laugh at them when they realise there aren't any" In jest of course - flame shield up nonetheless
Harnesses - yep
Hatches - yep.

It doesn't take long to omit something that isn't there.

:ok:Pyro

[SgtBundy]

*dons the flame proof suit due to his naivety and low hours*

While I always thought the undercarriage check to be redundant on fixed aircraft, on second thought I figured it was a good idea to get into the habit of it regardless. I mean, no-one has ever done a wheels up landing right? :}

[waren9]

The OP makes a good point and I agree.

A couple of things to think about maybe though. Aeroclub pilots generally fly infrequently and when they do, it could be on any one of a number of types.

How many different checklists can you expect that pilot or his instructor to recall accurately. One size fits all and covers most bases, if you like.

That is where our industry has many of its roots I guess.

As for dedicated modern flying schools teaching fulltime CPL (and beyond) students on only one or two types at once, then yes, there really is no excuse.

[Sunfish]

TM:

A classic example of a superfluous rote downwind drill is the check of "Undercarriage ..Down and Locked" when the aircraft is a fixed gear type.



Oh dear! The flaw in your entire (logical) argument is that in times of great stress, pilots will revert to their basic training. They will not be logical. They will be reverting to instinct - which will take them back to their basic training.

Yes, I learned BUMFOAH, and PUF and TMPFISCH.

I know its superfluous to mention undercarriage when flying a C172 but it ain't when I'm flying an Arrow.

So you want me to make the mental readjustment every time I switch aircraft? You want me to say to myself "Now Sunfish, today you are flying an Arrow, not a Sportstar. Your downwind checklist must include a "U" for undercarriage today"?

And you want me to remember to do this late on a winters day, landing into the sun at Kerang, in an Arrow, after a last minute change of plan that saw me refill at Swan Hill, after a domestic about stopping at Kerang to see her friends, followed by getting said petrified pax to read me the procedure for loss of alternator in flight, and the usual flock of Kerang Galahs on final?

I am a low time PPL, easily distracted, terminally stupid, it's a wonder I can even talk and walk at the same time, let alone fly an aircraft. It's been "undercarriage welded down" or "Undercarriage down and locked" ever since I first stepped into a C150, and it will remain so.


....And yes, i have forgotten to raise the gear on one occasion, but the associated lack of climb performance alerted me to my stupidity.

[PA39]

I have always been of the opinion (be it right or wrong to others) that the faster the aircraft the shorter the downwind checks should be. I have always used GUMB....as a deriviate from GUMP as i don't think props should go to full fine on downwind. Gas (fuel on mains or correct tanks, pumps on) Undercarriage- Mixtures - Brakes (stub brakes for full pedal). Final; Props Undercarriage (3g's) Full flap when committed. I really can't see the need for hatches and harness' in a 4 seater tourer or trainer.....If its a cabin twin I ask out of rote "is everyone buttoned up" in a cabin call before decent.

I've watched blokes trying to recite the 10 commandments downwind only to be interrupted by radio chatter and forget where they were up to.........by this time we're a dot on the horizon !

It is difficult brainwashing yourself for a downwind check on a fast twin and then applying another to a fixed gear fixed prop Tomahawk. IF you're outta one and into the other (Instructing).

On abinitio training I always tried to stick close to the POH checklists.

[j3pipercub]

So you want me to make the mental readjustment every time I switch aircraft? You want me to say to myself "Now Sunfish, today you are flying an Arrow, not a Sportstar. Your downwind checklist must include a "U" for undercarriage today"?

Yes, seing as you are a human being capable of thought.

j3

[Wally Mk2]

Check lists of any nature are just that, checklists. They are not 'do' lists (some are at say pre-fight stage etc) Obviously the action has already been completed once a check list is performed so a lot of generic check lists from days gone by won't apply but there's no need to modify them for any type, that's inviting danger thru occasional change. So I reckon keep it simple but effective & use what YOUR used to. The human mind will react intuitively under pressure, core rote learning's like basic language skills taught from childhood will come to mind the fastest & in aviation under threat that may very well save you!
As for me like a few in here I still use where necessary the old 'PUF' checks for Eg prior to ldg even in a jet! It can be done silently to ones self just for peace of mind. With hands on the thrust levers it's take but a few seconds of spare time to say to yourself 'PUF'. Pitch- U/C- Flaps to me is the most important of 'em all obviously pitch is just part of that rote learning so there is no need to modify it for every type it hurts nobody. Fuel is too obviously bloody important but just prior to ldg if you need to make a check of a particular fuel tank selection you just changed only moments before in order not to run out of fuel prior to ldg then it's only a matter of time before you turn serviceable aluminum into scrap metal!

'KISS' works best & that can to me mean leave well alone from the old days where in grain learning was started:ok:


Wmk2

[Andy_RR]

I like Reds, Blues and Greens for short final.

When you're flying single pilot ops, do you say it all out loud?

Are your lips moving as you read this...?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

ASK yourself a simple question...HOW did you learn to fly?

If you answer truthfully, you will understand the INTENT behind learning a checklist by rote.

If your instructor imbued you with the correct skills from the start...it matters not that it may be twenty years between visits. You will sit in that seat and everything comes flooding back, the actions, the checks..it just falls to hand...Why?..Because you learnt it correctly from the start. You learnt it until it became a natural reflex action.

WM2 is right. KISS may well save you a lot of embarrasment down the track.

EDIT- The answer is LOGICAL:ok:

[kalavo]

There's a difference between a CHECKlist and a DOlist.

[muffman]

One thing which has always bugged me as an instructor is teaching the U in the pre-landing checks even in fixed gear aeroplanes. To me, the logic doesn't stack up that if you say "undercarriage down" as part of your landing checklist in a fixed gear aeroplane, you will never forget it in a retrac.

By doing this, you are actually teaching pilots NOT to check something. With hours of practice going around the circuit saying "undercarriage down" as a student, years later when they are under pressure in a retractable aeroplane and the law of primacy kicks in, they will go back to what they were originally taught to do - say undercarriage down, but not check it.

[b_sta]

Brakes - Checked for pressure, but even if they've lost some pressure since you've taken off, it's not going to do you a world of good to know about it since you've gotta land anyway!
Undercarriage - Still there unless it's fallen off mid-flight...
Mixture - Rich, and this is a check that should be there.
Masters - Surely you would have noticed your total lack of electrical supply by now if you for some reason switched them off?
Magnetos - And most definitely your mags should be on both; if they aren't, what the hell are you doing turning off the mags mid-flight?
Fuel - Pumps on, another check that should be there.
Oil Temps and Pressures - In the green... but if they aren't, then you're going to be landing anyway since you're already on downwind, so what's the bloody difference.
Harness and Hatches - Do you often make a point of taking off your seatbelt and opening the door during flight?

[Tee Emm]

anyway, cessna fuel gauges don't actually work) Your quite right about the gauges (I'm assuming your talking 172/182 etc).Careful now. CASA reads these pages. Presumably every time you see a crook fuel gauge you write it up in the maintenance release. Of course you do...

Someone else will fly that aircraft after you and may not have your skill at picking an unserviceable fuel gauge. He takes the aircraft and runs out of fuel and dies. Guess who ATSB and the CASA investigators will come looking for? The answer is the last few pilots who flew that aircraft.

If you tell the truth and say the fuel gauge was crook but then all Cessna are crook and that is why you failed to record the defect after you landed. You are gone a million. Of course you could always tell a porky and tell the investigators there was nothing wrong with the fuel gauges when YOU flew the aircraft and then forever live with your conscience. Some years ago a C210 went in at night in WA. The vac pump pressure had been low (investigators discovered it would have been low for some weeks earlier) and the AH was unreliable which which contributed to the loss of control. Turns out none of the preceding pilots had written up the snag. If some had, maybe the crash would not have happened. Speculation of course.

Why on earth do some pilots feel that only wimps write up defects?

[Fly-by-Desire]

Brakes - Checked for pressure, but even if they've lost some pressure since you've taken off, it's not going to do you a world of good to know about it since you've gotta land anyway!


Big difference if your intending on landing at a short strip when a lot bigger one is near by.


Oil Temps and Pressures - In the green... but if they aren't, then you're going to be landing anyway since you're already on downwind, so what's the bloody difference.


Might not accept that 'extend downwind' from the tower, plus, its always nice to know ahead of time when the engine is going to quit, at any stage of the flight!


Harness and Hatches - Do you often make a point of taking off your seatbelt and opening the door during flight?


Pax love to 'loosen' the seat belt. Plus a general check that everything is stowed is important too.

All for the generic checks, but to simplify even more, the two checks that are vital are the trim and the fuel system. Know how both are managed for the particualr aircraft and the rest is generic.

[18-Wheeler]

All I've ever done, from Tomahawks to 747's, is use the cropduster checklist. (on top of any that the aeroplane may have)

Takeoff -
fuel, flaps, trim.

Landing
Flaps, gear.

[Old Akro]

The purpose of generic checks (to do lists) is to make sure that the critical stuff for flight is done. It needs to be the same list for all aircraft so that its indelibly etched in your mind. If you are flying the importance of redundant items (like gear) is that it helps to reinforce what aeroplane you are flying. Not so important if you are doing circuits, but coming home after getting up early, doing a bunch of stuff then flying maybe 5 hours home and it becomes more significant.

If you own an aeroplane and only fly the one type, then I think its OK to move to a tailored list, although in that case a proper checklist with flow check confirmation would be best.

[Dixons Cider]

All I've ever done, from Tomahawks to 747's, is use the cropduster checklist. (on top of any that the aeroplane may have)

Takeoff -
fuel, flaps, trim.

Landing
Flaps, gear

:ok::ok::ok:

[Sunfish]

Grizzly:

Why "undercarriage - Down and Locked"?
Last aircraft I flew that had 2 gear levers - one for gear up/down, and one for gear locked/unlocked - was a DC3, so you did have to check gear down and gear locked. Modern aircraft have just 1 lever, so in a retractable aircraft the pilot is only checking he's got the green lights, checking gear "down", not checking the gear is "locked" - so why teach this aviation fossil?

Sorry, my shorthand. It is a Two part action.

It's actually "Undercarriage selected down" and

"Three greens, undercarriage locked".

My hand goes on the lever as I select undercarriage down and it doesn't leave that lever until I see Three Greens. That is a physical halt in proceedings for maybe Four or Five seconds while the gear extends. Nothing else is done until we see the greens.

More than one accident has occurred when the gear was simply selected down and the checklist continued without the essential check for Three greens. Even in the old Arrow I've once had to cycle the gear to get Three Greens.

As I said, I'm terminally stupid. I need to remind myself that simply putting the gear lever to "down" does not guarantee that it is down, waiting for Three Greens is the available way of confirming that.

[PyroTek]

Sunfish: This is why I check gear down and locked and greens on Downwind, Base AND Final. - Can't be too cautious :=:ok:
Plus: I'm pretty new to RG systems - it's still a little excitement to have an aircraft where the wheels go up and go down on the movement of a lever :}

[HarleyD]

Gear down and locked for amphibians is not good enough, you also need to know if it should be UP and locked, which works better for landing on water.

I have seen many incidents of floatplanes going ar$e over head from landing on water with the wheels "down and locked"

Maybe all students should identify landing surface and make decision whether to ensure down and locked or up and locked, just in case they fly floating hull one day.

The right check list is the type and even aircraft specific one for the exact plane that you are flying at the time. Sprogs were let loose in spitfires with shorter check lists than the average moorabin mercenary equips his luckless student with.

Having said that short finals checks of gear is not a bad one, but as far as flaps and cowl flaps go, these should already have been selected - TO THE APPROPRIATE positon, not just Full down and full open, and don't get me started on carby heat, that should be in the hot position until "after landing" according to most if not all engine manufacturers. Automatically going full rich on down wind is a crock and can even cause issues - in some circumstances - and it is these circumstances that require discretiopn and airmanship to be properly taught - not just rote recitation of generic lists.

HD

[PyroTek]

don't get me started on carby heat, that should be in the hot position until "after landing"
I think instructors teach students to turn carb heat off on Final because in the event of a go around, they may go full throttle and not get best power on climb out because they forgot about Carb heat during the ground run.:=

[Tankengine]

Also carby heat supplying unfiltered air on a dusty outback dirt strip at 40C is just stupid!:=

[Jabawocky]

Tankengine

Good point....not that I have carby heat anymore. However it does rasie a point that might be helpful to some newbies.

Just becuse its on your checklist, and its fitted, does not mean you should just "Do It". There may be some very good reason not to do it. the point is THINK about the function.

For those of us who fly predominantly the same machine all the time, and have develloped a simple left to right check list for every phase of flight, this can come in handy when you jump into a simple machine.....does not mean you DO everything, but you still think about the task and whether to apply it.

One that comes to mind is PITOT HEAT. If its an IFR flight and anything other than 8/8ths blue.....its ON. The EMS system even asks you! Of course on a VFR jolly locally on a nice day....leave it off!

J:ok:

[Atlas Shrugged]

THINK about the function.

Got it in one! :D

It's a FUNCTION, not a process. You do not NEED a checklist to fly an aircraft.

[HarleyD]

TankEngine, Jaba and AS, totally agree and do operate exactly like that.

Carb Heat (for example) is a control that should be used WHEN CONDITIONS INDICATE CARB ICING IS LIKELY.

Any feckwit who uses carb heat when it's 40 in the waterbag and low humidity , and on a dusty strip shows no understanding of what it is there for.

Likewise PyroTek who has no idea what Carby Heat is for if his (or her) only concept is


I think instructors teach students to turn carb heat off on Final because in the event of a go around, they may go full throttle and not get best power on climb out because they forgot about Carb heat during the ground run.:=


and even put a little finger wagger to put me back in my place!!

Mate, grow up, and i actually mean grow up and get some in. you are a kid and need to do a bit of research.

carb ice (when conditions prevail) is most likely in the last hndred feet or so of your approach, right when the rote check list tells y0u to put it off.

if you want enough power for the go-around, not having a gut full of carb ice is a good way to start, and if you do have it, you will get better power with carb heat on than off.

Check the things that you actually need and select as required. wheels up /down, carb heat, cowl flaps, landing flap etc. the AFM f a specific type will let you know what is the important stuff, but you do actually need a grasp of basics.

HD

[Centaurus]

as far as flaps and cowl flaps go, these should already have been selected - TO THE APPROPRIATE positon, not just Full down and full open,


Never yet seen a manufacturer's checklist that requires the cowl flaps to be opened prior to landing. After landing - yes for obvious reasons. If a go-around is required on short final the cowl flaps should remain in the recommended position which is normally closed.

By the time the aircraft has climbed back to circuit height which is around one minute at climb power there is no way the CHT will increase so much that rapid opening of cowl flaps becomes necessary. If a prolonged climb is needed then there is plenty of time to select cowl flaps open after the aircraft is cleaned up.

[PyroTek]

Mate, grow up, and i actually mean grow up and get some in. you are a kid and need to do a bit of research.

carb ice (when conditions prevail) is most likely in the last hndred feet or so of your approach, right when the rote check list tells y0u to put it off.

if you want enough power for the go-around, not having a gut full of carb ice is a good way to start, and if you do have it, you will get better power with carb heat on than off.

Check the things that you actually need and select as required. wheels up /down, carb heat, cowl flaps, landing flap etc. the AFM f a specific type will let you know what is the important stuff, but you do actually need a grasp of basics.No disrespect here, HarleyD
After following your direction and doing a little research, among personal experience, I referred to "The Flying Training Manual" by the Aviation Theory Centre: Page 211: "Final Approach"
Excerpt:
...Complete the final check (PUF):
- propellor full fine;
- undercarriage down; and
- flaps full (carburettor heat cold)

Confirm that the runway is clear and that you are cleared to land...This is a book that came with my Basic Aeronautical Knowledge package during my early GFPT training. This is what I have followed - as has been backed up by instructors, so instead of getting the sh!ts with me over my "lack of research" and the likes, I suggest you take this to the publishers of the text books.

However, I shall keep your suggestion to research in mind. I'm not disagreeing with you on any point about how icing conditions can prevail in the last few hundred feet of approach, or on a humid day, merely referring to what I have been asked to study.:ok:However, apparently it is not advised to have Carb heat on, on the ground, due engine wear.

Perhaps I'm not "reading between the lines"..
Flame shield up, etc. etc.

Regardless, this is a considerable amount of thread drift.

[Atlas Shrugged]

What's that old saying about "textbook" smarts, and "street" smarts??

Textbooks are an excellent foundation but you simply can't get experience from a textbook.

Memorising a technique that works on a single aircraft does not constitute an understanding of the aircraft, like some text books and instructors might have us believe. Different aircraft have quite different engine management and flight requirements.

Oh, and on the subject of carb ice, I knew a lass once that had no understanding of icing at all. Just before take off on what was a very cold day, but not necessarily one conducive to icing conditions, she applied carb heat as a precaution whilst lined up - no more than 15 secs or so because the book said "if you suspect icing may be present, etc"

She managed to heat up the air to a temperature that actually caused the carb to ice up :eek:

Fortunately, she DID have an understanding of when to abort a takeoff, albeit 750m down a 1000m runway!

[conflict alert]

trouble with generic checks is that it can put you in a mindset. For years I used the same checklist drummed into my head by an instructor from day one. Trouble is - you got so used to going through the routine that when you actually changed aircraft and went through the checklist, it didn't quite mould with the aircraft!!eg pitch "fixed" was one of the checks instilled in my head from years and hours of flying fixed pitch props (undercarriage "fixed" was another) and when I flew CSU's I remember doing my checks and in my brain I would rattle through the checks and pitch "fixed" would come out even though I was looking at the RPM/MANIFOLD pressures and toying with the throttle/RPM levers. Same with U/C.

It wasn't until I started getting many type ratings (now over 30) plus starting to own my own aircraft that I went to the checklist from the Flight Manual for each aircraft, laminated, and read from those - regardless of how basic the aircraft or aircraft type. Flight manuals have the checklist included, in my opinion, for good reason and if you stick to them, you can't go wrong.

No instructor has ever given me **** for going off a checklist card, regardless of the type. Some have commented on BFR's and I just tell them "its the flight manual checklist" and they 'happy as larry'.

[Atlas Shrugged]

A checklist should not really be used as a "to do" list. Do the actions, THEN use the checklist to confirm.