Future of US Marine Corps SAR

[SASless]

When will we see an Osprey replace the Cherry Point Pedro 46?

It would seem a perfect job for such an aircraft.....fast, long range, about the same avionics for SAR duties and all or does the 46 fly too much too often?

The New Bern July 4th airshow had the Pedro.....and not the Osprey doing a SAR demo. Good show it was.....with the feller riding the winch cable with the Flag flying!

[ospreydriver]

When will we see an Osprey replace the Cherry Point Pedro 46?

It would seem a perfect job for such an aircraft.....fast, long range, about the same avionics for SAR duties and all or does the 46 fly too much too often?

Not for a long, long, time. I wouldn't be surprised if the USMC ditches the station SAR mission altogether someday fairly soon--it's already given it up at MCAS Beaufort and in Japan. They did replace the CH-46Ds that were wearing out with CH-46Es that were replaced in fleet service by V-22s. The V-22 still has to fill units on the West Coast, Japan, and the reserves. I don't think the V-22 would make sense money wise for what's usually a short-range job. The SAR they do is pretty close to the coast in the warning areas and two tiny bombing ranges near NKT.

[SASless]

If one was dedicated to the Cherry Point, Beaufort, New River tasks.....would it not be able to do all three tasks due to its speed and range. The deletion of the 46 Pedro at Cherry Point would mean the Range Security troops would have to go by boat if I am not mistaken. Perhaps that mission could be handled by a UH-1 and base it out of Atlantic OLF.

Actually....it sounds like a mission tailored made for a commerical helicopter operator!

[ospreydriver]

Beaufort is covered by the USCG. New River doesn't need dedicated SAR--it's a helo base. Cherry Point still needs it. As far as range sweeps, it's a good collateral job for those guys, but not enough to justify maintaining a dedicated platform--and if that dedicated platform was a V-22, not enough to justify multiple $50 mil + aircraft.

My personal opinion is that the mission will go away after the last fleet CH-46Es are gone. It'll be too much effort to maintain dedicated parts and logistics support for a small number of aircraft, not to mention that the number of Marines qualified to crew and maintain 46s will progressively shrink.

You'll see some sort of combination of LOAs between the USMC, USCG, NC State assets, and private LifeFlight or SAR to cover the duty. As the USMC shrinks down again, they'll want to put active duty Marines in line units v. supporting establishment.

[SASless]

I can agree with most of your response....but at the same time it raises other questions that arose from the PR program used by the Marines to prove the need for such an expensive machine.

Is not SAR one of the missions the Osprey was advertised as being perfect for?

Is not the Osprey not billed as being the ideal replacement for the Phrog?

Letter of Agreement (LOA) answer to the situation including "State Assets" and civilian EMS helicopters....that will be an interesting solution to the need.

What is the response time for deployment of USCG helicopters to the scene of a crash offshore in the Jet Training areas.....bit of a flog from Elizabeth City is it not? Does New River have a standby SAR aircraft ready to respond to helicopter crashes and Osprey crashes? USCG Savannah operates Dolphins and USCG Elizabeth City operates Jayhawks and C-130's. It would appear to this old Army Pilot a Dolphin falls well short of the needed capability for adequate coverage for any aircraft that carries more than a couple of pilots. Even the downing of an EA-6 would be a stretch in the number of folks under the best of circumstances. If it were an Osprey, Sikorsky, Phrog, or even an old Huey with a load of Pax aboard....the Dolphin just isn't going to cut it.

What is the range of a USCG Dolphin or Jayhawk compared to the Osprey in a SAR configuration? Does the MV-22 carry the Avionics fit to compare with the JayHawk for SAR duties?

The follow-on question is why Cherry Point even has the Phrog doing its duty....as if MCAS Beaufort has done away with its Pedro unit? What makes that base any different?

If the additional USN Squadrons arrive as hoped....would that alter the thinking re using Osprey's for the Pedro Mission? Eight Squadrons is it they are looking at moving to Cherry Point and five to Beaufort? That would be an additional 200 F-35's which is a lot of airplanes!

[JohnDixson]

Anyone have a video of a V-22 water pickup utilizing the basket?

Thanks,
John Dixson

[ospreydriver]

Maybe a moderator would like to separate this into a "future of Marine SAR" thread.

The V-22 would be a GREAT SAR platform--for COMBAT Search and Rescue. The speed, range, and survivability would be huge.

For stateside "admin" SAR, it'd work too, but I just don't see the cost/benefit working out. Hence my (educated but not privvy to the master plan) estimate that SAR is eventually going to go away in the USMC.

The Coast Guard base in Charleston, I believe, has the overwater SAR for Beaufort. As you said, Elizabeth City is a haul to get to NKT. That's why I think it will eventually be a patchwork of stopgaps eventually.

New River has no internal SAR capability, nor do most helo-only bases in the Navy/USMC to my knowledge. Someone's done the risk/benefit on that and decided it's not worthwhile. Jets have to go overwater on a regular basis to bomb/tank/ACM/etc. Helos go a couple miles offshore at most normally, unless they're doing CQs. In that case the ship has its own dedicated SAR bird and boats.

The V-22 has coupled INS hover but not the coupled doppler hover that I believe is required for night overwater SAR work. I don't think that'd be a huge mod. They've already retrofitted that into the E versions that didn't have it installed. However, with a fly-by-wire aircraft, there are software issues that can always make what a lay-pilot would think is an easy fix into a hard one. (As an aside, FBW has some wild benefits sometimes--the V-22's performance significantly improved because of new software as well)

[SASless]

Maybe a moderator would like to separate this into a "future of Marine SAR" thread.


If that were to happen....would you excise any mention of the Osprey in that thread were it to be mentioned?

Would an Osprey tasked for Combat SAR training stand down if a real SAR mission arose for a downed aircraft in the training areas?

Where does the dividing line between the two functions exist....do not the USAF Combat SAR units not do civilian SAR work such as some of the record setting missions out of the UK using the Air to Air refuelling capability of the Blackhawks? The Air Force Jolly Greens did similar flights in the past as well.

We have had several such evolutions in the recent past that have been discussed here at Rotorheads.

It would seem like a real PR bonus should those kinds of flights take place....lord knows the Osprey program needs some genuine good news.

[ospreydriver]

I'm new here, but I don't think I could excise reference to the V-22, nor would I want to. I just think we're going down a rabbit-hole that mixes two separate topics.

Marine V-22s don't train for SAR, they train for TRAP. TRAP is going in force, with escorts and a unit of grunts to get a survivor and/or aircraft down in a known location. We don't practice that search pattern expanding square, creeping line, and the rest of that crap. Other than the station assets in Yuma and Cherry Point, no substantial time is spent training or doing SAR work.

As far as the USAF, they have dedicated platforms that perform CSAR in theater and can perform stateside SAR for the military as well as aid civilian authorities periodically. I think some of the ANG squadrons, especially, spend a good deal of time aiding the civilian side of the house with that. Others can give more fidelity on that.

Regular military assets do get tagged periodically to do SAR. Sometimes that is as simple as ATC saying,"I lost radar contact with an aircraft at XXX, can you fly over and check it out?" If it's something more substantial than that, it will involve deliberate planning, and the authorities will go first to the units best prepared for it, e.g. USCG (obviously), USAF SAR, ANG, Navy HSC squadrons, etc, etc.

True SAR involves specialized training and often specialized equipment. Not every jerk with a helo and a hoist can do it. I'd be happy to take on the duty, just give me 50% more pilots so I can cover the graveyard shift every night and 50% more flight hours so I can train for it and know what I'm doing.

I don't want to be over the water at night, paging furiously through the SAR TACAID checklists, going,"S**t! How do you figure out the search area again? He punched out there, the windspeed was 180/5, the ocean current is SW at 3....carry the one...multiply by 1.5...take the square root of my birthday..."

[Redhawk 83]

Expecting USCG to cover DOD Trng is probably not the way to go and contrary to the policy of DOD providing its own response....

A solution would be similar to what is going on in Hawaii and other US Army bases which is civilian contractors-they are out there and not just for over land.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Ospreydriver,

:D Great post!

[GNHarwell]

The last USMC Aviation Campaign plan called for the replacement of the CH-46D filling the SAR role at Cherry Point with the UH-1Y. It will be the last unit to get the UH-1Y after all of the fleet units and MCAS Yuma SAR.

[ospreydriver]

Thanks for bringing that up.

If it comes to fruition, it will be a great deal for the Huey types to get into VMR-1. Knowing the skid community, though, they won't appreciate it. It will be regarded as being banished to the dark side of the moon--they don't even like it when one of their own instructs in P-cola. For skids, if you don't shoot, you don't count!

I'm still a little apprehensive about the likelihood of it happening, though, seeing the pending cuts in the USMC. The Corps likes to cut as much of the supporting establishment as it can before getting into the trigger-pulling side of the house.

[GNHarwell]

As a Huey guy in a Cobra squadron you're already screwed. All depends on timing. Sometimes it's a choice between flying a lot at SAR and getting some additional fixed wing time and "taking one for the team" with VMU or IA billet and hoping to get a "good deal" on the backside. The "good deal" rarely happens and once you're gone the squadron doesn't care anymore. Not a judgment, just the way things are. At least at SAR you stay current when the follow-on billets come around.

The most recent campaign plan says 3rd Qtr 2015 for UH-1Y in Yuma and Cherry Point. Wait a few months and it will probably be more like 4th Qtr 2020. Definitely a better deal that having UH-60s 20 years ago when we had the chance...

[ospreydriver]

The USMC has decided that it cannot devote assets exclusively to CSAR. We've decided we can't accommodate buying dedicated equipment nor dedicated personnel, either in aircrew or PJ equivalents.

Instead, it has decided that TRAP is the best way to take care of its responsibilities to recover aircrew in a combat environment. Of course, in the purple (joint) world we work in, there is a division of responsibilities between the services whenever there is a major operation going on. There's actually a joint agency that steps in to coordinate which service provides what when they're all at the party.

When the Marine Corps is working on its own or off of shipping there's a matrix used to determine what assets go get a downed crew, depending on threat and distance from friendly forces. Generally speaking, overwater the Navy helos will get you. Overland, various TRAP packages are assembled depending on the threat.

Station SAR is important, but because there's no enemy, it doesn't matter so much WHO does it, just that it gets done. Hence the reduction in station assets in favor of outside agencies. Iwakuni got rid of its SAR in favor of Japanese assets, and Beaufort SAR got replaced by the USCG. Again, prioritization based on risk/benefit analysis takes place, e.g. helo bases don't get SAR.

The Marine Corps will help out the civilian side when asked, but that really can't be its focus of effort. As far as the Osprey, the Corps is plenty busy getting squadrons ready to deploy, without worrying about training for extra missions.