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Phil Vabre
25th Aug 2010, 00:09
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l158/Philthy88/Sartime_Minus-5.jpg

Airservices Australia has launched a new campaign called 'SARTIME minus 5' to encourage pilots to set their mobile phone or watch alarm for five minutes prior to their SARTIME as a reminder to cancel or extend it with CENSAR. The aim is to reduce the 12,000 expired SARTIMES each year, very few of which are actually missing aircraft.

More information plus a downloadable poster can be found here: Airservices Australia - Pilot & Airside Safety - SARTIME Management (http://airservicesaustralia.com/flying/safety/sartime/default.asp)

Spinnerhead
25th Aug 2010, 01:19
Now we just have to remember to turn our phones on after landing!

Skynews
25th Aug 2010, 01:56
No, alarms will work with the phone turned off.
Turning the phone off is the trick, ask those Jetstar guys in Singapore.

ravan
25th Aug 2010, 06:47
Did they bring this expired Sartime dilemma on themselves when they, firstly, disbanded Flight Service and then made it so hard to cancel Sartime on the radio?

Bounceferret
25th Aug 2010, 07:20
Hard to cancel on the radio?
I do it almost every flight (with the exeption of night flights)

takes 5 secs of centres time, just do it when it's quiet.
Nomitating is a different story, if you can phone them, do it.

ravan
25th Aug 2010, 07:32
must be like real estate..position,position,position!!!!....
Have been told on VHF a few times in recent years, and heard others being told, to use the phone as the first option (as per ERSA):}

disturbedone
25th Aug 2010, 09:06
Bounceferret,

Both nominating and cancelling take the same amount of time for controllers. The information has to be passed onto the flight datas so they can then pass it to CENSAR. It is much more efficient to call CENSAR directly via phone.

PyroTek
25th Aug 2010, 09:35
disturbedone - to transmit the details of a flight/nominate SARtime over radio is much more time consuming, than saying "XXX arrived <airport>, cancel sartime":ok:

I usually set alarms 30, 15, 10 and 5 mins off the SARtime. I was caught out once when I got a call just after shutdown - two minutes after my nominated SARtime. - admittedly my bad planning, however I did try and cancel overhead the aerodrome, to no avail.

:ok:Pyro

Two_dogs
25th Aug 2010, 09:42
What an excellent idea. I wish I had thought of it myself.

I have on a few (read several over the past number of years) occasions forgotten to cancel sartime when flying VFR and have "remembered" immediately when the phone rings shortly after sartime has expired.

First thought is "DOH" Second thought is "Oh well, that's another carton" :ugh:

compressor stall
25th Aug 2010, 09:55
Might also help the stats if the times you ring in on a Sat phone (to the Brisbane number, not the 1800) actually got passed on. Admittedly a few years ago now, but I had four SARTIMES in two weeks that weren't passed on...

Aerodynamisist
25th Aug 2010, 20:44
I too cancel VFR sar mostly on the radio and on two occasions in 3 years been met with a gruff atc informing me that "the preferred method is by phone" most are accommodating and happy to cancel for me however. I prefer to cancel by radio and will continue to do so despite the objection of 1 or 2 atc's as the electricity is free. If I could only get class c and d towers to cancel it to - would be good but hard for them as I understand they have no internal connection to censar and have to ring on the same number we use.

triadic
26th Aug 2010, 00:49
A very senior ASA ATS Manager told be a few years back to use VHF as required to cancel SAR with whatever unit I was communicating with. There are still some grumble bums but as a rule they take it without comment and pass it on. From a pilots point of view, that option is often the easiest way to do it and sometimes the ONLY way.

Awol57
26th Aug 2010, 01:03
The only way for us to cancel it in a tower is to pick up the phone and ring CENSAR exactly the same way you do it after your flight. It's not an issue when there is a spare body in the cab but if we are all on the console it's a bit more challenging. Not sure how the centres do it, I presume they use their fancy VSCS thingo to call them.

ResumeOwnNav
26th Aug 2010, 01:10
I nominate and cancel it every flight when VFR with Flightwatch on the HF radio. Easy.

I know some aeroplanes don't have/require one to be fitted, but if it is why not use it?

Nav.

Ex FSO GRIFFO
26th Aug 2010, 01:11
Yeah Stallie......

They tell me its just so hard to get good hired help these days.....:eek:

Ixixly
26th Aug 2010, 03:38
Has anyone thought about the poor bottleshop owners? This simple campaign will rob them of around 12,000 cartons a year!!

Thats around $500,000 a year, WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE BOTTLE-Os?!

FL400
26th Aug 2010, 04:43
The only way for enroute ATC to cancel a SARTIME is to write down the details on a strip as the pilot says them. The ATC then calls the data guy and the data guy writes down the details on his own strip as the ATC reads the details that they copied from the pilot. The data guy then hangs up from the ATC and calls CENSAR on the 1800 number or or sends them a fancy message on the internoodle and gives them the details that they copied from the ATC.

The faffing around is tremendous, hence the occasional grumbles.

peuce
26th Aug 2010, 05:30
In this day and age, could not the Controller have a direct electronic link to CENSAR?

Enter callsign .... select Airport of arrival ... right click ... cancel SAR !

Jabawocky
26th Aug 2010, 06:53
I assume that is how an IFR SARWATCH is cancelled, or does the poor ATC guy/girl have to go through the same crazy process?

I am going to do an ATC tour at YBBN on September 5th and hope to gain a much better understanding of what you good folk do! :ok:

PyroTek
26th Aug 2010, 07:33
I am going to do an ATC tour at YBBN on September 5th and hope to gain a much better understanding of what you good folk do! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
Very worth it, I won't give up any secrets for you though :P

Dick N. Cider
26th Aug 2010, 08:07
Jaba,

If you're at Brissie on the 5th you will be made most welcome. We do have a line to HF Flightwatch, after all they have to call us as well on occasion. Procedurally though we write it down, pass to the flight data guys who then send an ATFN message which (as I understand it) interacts automatically with the CENSAR database.

It's occasionally tedious but usually not too bad. Getting sh!tty about it with the pilot who is trying to do the right thing is pointless. It's part of what we do. My motto is just get on with it. The having to write it down bit is to ensure no senior moments and cover @rses when someone gets it wrong. Ideally an integrated function on TAAATS would be great but such enhancements are hideously expensive. You'll see what I mean on that Sunday.

DNC

le Pingouin
26th Aug 2010, 08:10
The problem with ATC handling VFR SARTIMES is it's not robust - easy for us to drop because it's not an integrated part of our system. Personally I'm more than happy to do it but dealing directly with CENSAR minimises handling, reducing the chance of error.

Peuce, a direct link would be great but would likely cost a shedload because it's new functionality (do you work for Thales? ;) ). And stop it at once! You're being logical.

Jaba, IFR SAR is handled by TAAATS. It wasn't always as automated as it is now as it started off as a purely ATC system with no specific functionality for "G" operations. Hopefully you'll get a good show in BrisVegas.

ravan
26th Aug 2010, 08:57
Very enlightening and educational......thanks in particular to the ATCOs for their input.

Aerodynamisist
26th Aug 2010, 11:59
Thanks to our collages at ATC for filling us in on the internal process, will minus 5 given the possible delays be enough do you think ? or would minus 15 be better ?

tmpffisch
26th Aug 2010, 12:35
will minus 5 given the possible delays be enough do you think ? or would minus 15 be better ?

The name of the game isn't to rely on your phone reminding you to cancel your SAR...it's just as a last resort if you're a big enough **** to forget to cancel it in the first place. Just do whatever you need to remind yourself that your SAR needs to be cancelled, whether it's an alarm 1 minute before it expires, or if you need to, 10 alarms!

I find it annoying that AirServices has to fork out the cash to do a promotion for a relatively simple thing like this, when they could be spending it on something more important! Maybe they should encourage people to leave a flightnote or company SAR's, instead of a SAR with CENSAR

I wonder how many pilots forget to cancel their SARWATCH every year........

multi_engined
27th Aug 2010, 08:03
I think it's a great idea, but how many people have their phone readily avaiable to them when flying? Students especially should be concentrating on flying the aircraft rather than looking for the mobile phone at the end of a clearoff check :ok:

Our company operates to company sartime, How many GA operators do this? The only time we nominate with censar is for night ops when nobody is manning the office.

Jabawocky
27th Aug 2010, 08:24
Mr Cider

My mistake.......its the 7th of September if you are there :ok:

I'll have my eye out for Noel P and a few others I know.....so lookout! :}

Pity the VFR folk can't be processed the same way. When ever I have a VFR SARTIME lodged its only when I can't phone them on arrival that I would ask ATC.

Muli..... most likley not students and GA operators, I would guess its PVT ops....but I could be very wrong:uhoh:

max1
27th Aug 2010, 10:40
Jaba

Glad to see you visiting. To anyone else, don't be a stranger, come along if you can and visit.

multi_engined
27th Aug 2010, 12:31
As a commercial pilot I check my phone probably every five to ten minutes during flight, it is quite common to get a text message or phone call from the boss changing details of the flight. 208 has a small crevice behind the power lever where it fits in snug.

Homesick-Angel
28th Aug 2010, 00:36
Naips for Iphone works well for cancelling Sars...

Im going to an ATC info night in melbourne..looking forward to it.:ok:

Phil Vabre
30th Aug 2010, 12:39
I wonder how many pilots forget to cancel their SARWATCH every year........

About 12,000.

Charlie Foxtrot India
30th Aug 2010, 14:15
I just blame the student....

Nautilus Blue
30th Aug 2010, 14:33
About 12,000.

Phil, any idea how many sartimes are lodged each year. I'm curious as to what % that is.

NB

PS
I find it annoying that AirServices has to fork out the cash to do a promotion for a relatively simple thing like this, when they could be spending it on something more important! Maybe they should encourage people to leave a flightnote or company SAR's, instead of a SAR with CENSAR
Now if we were a bank, we'd charge $2 to hold the sartime, and $20 dishonoring fee if they weren't cancelled :E

tmpffisch
30th Aug 2010, 15:18
Good one Phil. :ugh:

Now tell us the difference between SARTIME and SARWATCH. :ok:

Ex FSO GRIFFO
30th Aug 2010, 15:47
Well Mr Nautilas - you may be closer than you think in your thinking................

Many years ago now, when the Flight Service services debate was raging - like - how do we get rid of them - a plan 'floated' by ASA management was to

'Introduce a pricing regime to discourage participation'.......

Self explanatory really.
Introduce a fee for SARTIMES and that would stop them DEAD!!:*

Then they could have deleted the SARTIME function and got rid of a few more staff.....:sad:

Also 'mooted' at the time was to charge those pilots who called on the radio for operational info when on the ground at a location at which a phone was avbl....less air/ground staff req'd. Call the Briefing Office for the info.

Briefing Officers were paid at a lower rate......:rolleyes:

The plan never reached 'fruition' - not sure why....
Although they did introduce the 'pre paid phone card' system...:yuk:

Cheers

morno
30th Aug 2010, 23:42
Yes they did Griffo, but I'm pretty sure most people now just have the direct phone number, which we don't have to pay for, :E.

morno

peuce
31st Aug 2010, 00:41
tmpffisch,

Now tell us the difference between SARTIME and SARWATCH.
If that's a serious question, I'll have a go ...

SARTIME ... Search And Rescue Time ... that is, a nominated time for arrival at a nominated place ... after which, they go looking for you.... before which, they dont.... unless they have a bad feeling in their stomach about you. Available to anyone.

SARWATCH ... Search And Rescue Watch ... that is, a continuous veil of love and care. If you don't answer me, at any time, I go looking for you immediately. So don't ignore me! Mandatory for all aircraft subject to 'continuous two way communication with ATC' ... for any reason.

tmpffisch
31st Aug 2010, 01:09
Thanks Peuce. (It wasn't a serious question). It was just that Phil Vabre can't read. :ok:

Ex FSO GRIFFO
31st Aug 2010, 02:42
Too Troo Morno,

Never did get one of those pay-card-phone thingies - on a matter of principle....:=

Why should I have to pay for that which I am required to have......:confused:

Just another form of 'indirect taxation' really.....IMHO....:*:*

I feel the same about maps/charts/amendments...but some things I just have to purchase- although it really pppp's me orf.

See reason above.:yuk::yuk:

onezeroonethree
31st Aug 2010, 09:06
Been doing this since the early days of my PPL after CENSAR called me up angrily telling me off :O

When I lodge my flight plan I set 3 alarms into my phone and put my phone on silent. (yeah I'm paranoid now). I always turn my phone on loud when I get out of a plane - habbit so it works for me. If I'm still in the air and my sartime is approaching my phone simply begins to vibrate 30mins early in my pocket. A quick vibration = sms/call which I ignore. If it continues for ages I take a look at it if possible and reminds me its sartime.

I remember my old nokias you could actually turn off with an alarm set and even with the phone turned off - the alarm would turn the phone on and start buzzing... have not come across a phone with that ability in years tho

Icarus2001
31st Aug 2010, 09:42
The only way for enroute ATC to cancel a SARTIME is to write down the details on a strip as the pilot says them. The ATC then calls the data guy and the data guy writes down the details on his own strip as the ATC reads the details that they copied from the pilot. The data guy then hangs up from the ATC and calls CENSAR on the 1800 number or or sends them a fancy message on the internoodle and gives them the details that they copied from the ATC.

The faffing around is tremendous, hence the occasional grumbles.

It is part of their job for goodness sake.

IF it is such a pain then that is an INTERNAL AsA problem not the problem of the pilot.

All that WORK above takes HOW LONG? Two minutes?

You guys are unbelievable.

PyroTek
31st Aug 2010, 09:57
Onezeroonethree:
Most modern nokia's have an alarm that turns the phone on and screams at you. Mine did at least, since it lost it's power button about a year ago, that's what i've been doing to ensure I can turn it back on if it turns off. (Apart from fiddling with screwdrivers and shorting the circuit board on the phone) - new phone now.

My Nseries turned on, with the alarm, if you pressed "Stop" as opposed to "snooze" or whatever, it would come up with "Turn on phone? (Y/N)" - I'm interested as to whether other brands do this too.

Phil Vabre
31st Aug 2010, 10:24
It was just that Phil Vabre can't read.

Whoops! Sorry, shouldn't have been so quick on the draw...red faces all round...:O

I don't know what the number of un-cancelled SARWATCHes for arrival is. It does happen but since the comms checks in the first instance are done by the Controller looking after the flight, and this usually resolves the issue, the problem is not so great for IFR.

Phil, any idea how many sartimes are lodged each year. I'm curious as to what % that is.

Nautilus B, about 120,000 SARTIMEs are lodged each year, so those going to comms checks are about 10%. About 1% (1,200) go to a SAR Phase (i.e. SARTIME expired by more than 15 minutes and no contact with the pilot).

Jack Ranga
31st Aug 2010, 23:55
All that WORK above takes HOW LONG? Two minutes?

You guys are unbelievable.


About the same time it takes for you to make a phone call to Censar yeah?

So you can make a phone call or get your nanny to make the call flor you?

It's sooooooo hard to be a pilot these days.......................

Icarus2001
1st Sep 2010, 08:25
Jack, you are missing the point, on purpose I guess.

It is part of the role of an ATCO, just like cancelling my SARWATCH when I land IFR at an non towered aerodrome. Should I call on my mobile then as well to reduce their work load?

I did not say it was hard to make a phone call but that is not the point.

le Pingouin
1st Sep 2010, 19:10
Icarus, thankyou for being soooooo understanding of the other guy's job. No more complaining for you if a controller asks something a bit hard. It's your aeroplane darling, so deal with it. I just push you around :E

Sure, it's my job and I gladly, willingly, nay, treasure doing it (being a crusty old FSO and all), but is it my fault our system was ahead of its time and GA still exists?

Personally, I'd prefer SARTIMEs were still held with the sector responsible for the aerodrome and we provided a service. Oh damn, I'm one of Dick's recalcitrants.

Awol57
1st Sep 2010, 23:02
We don't actually hold a SARWATCH as a time thing that needs to be cancelled. When you safely land it automatically cancels itself. I don't call anyone, but I just saw you land. It's more of a if you stop talking to me or don't check in with me at the right time I have to go looking for you. If I can't find you then we initiate SAR procedures (not quite that simple but the whole process doesn't matter on here). If I see you crash then I push the crash button.

SARTIME on the other hand I don't even know generally which aircraft has one on them, until CENSAR calls me asking if you have arrived. Interestingly I can't cancel it for you anyway without making contact with you, the PIC. If you are in the circuit we have to speak to you over the air to cancel it.

Personally I will do my best to cancel it for you when I am asked, however just like when I am flying and I Aviate Navigate Communicate, when I am controlling I have to separate first, using the phone is far down the list in order of priority, particularly when I have no idea if your SARTIME expires in 1 minutes or 1 hour.

I guess that is why often we will ask if you are able to do it via phone.

Icarus2001
2nd Sep 2010, 02:59
When you safely land it automatically cancels itself.

Not at non towered aerodromes it doesn't. That was my point above.

Ex FSO GRIFFO
2nd Sep 2010, 03:28
Be VERY careful Mr Pingouin - lest thou be 'called in' for tea without the bikkies......

Cheers:ok:

Hi 'Icarus',

I should let the current ATC'ers answer you here - however, when you land IFR at your non-towered ad., the ATC controller - to whom you are talking - is holding SARWATCH on your flight until you cancel it - with him/her.

Whether you cnl in the circuit, or after completing your safe landing, is up to you.

A VFR type SARTIME is being held by another agency - in this case CENSAR - who may be in a different location - hence the 'duplicated' workload of intercom exchanges, phone calls, message sending via a typed msg, etc etc.

'Twas so much more betterer when it was all done by the one FSO......
Forgotten SARTIMES were a great source of 'free drinks' on a Fri night at the local Aero Club....

Just don't forget is all................Cheers:ok:

FL400
2nd Sep 2010, 05:55
Actually it probably only takes 1 - 1.5 minutes.

But just as ATC will expect pilots to Aviate, navigate, then communicate; pilots should expect ATC to prioritise as well. Separation of aircraft in CTA, coordination with other units, passing traffic to IFR aircraft, providing a FIS to those entitled to it will all be completed before taking VFR SARTIME details.

I've said 'unable' to VFR requests (including SARTIME) before where I've had to. Just as nobody will praise your piloting skills for spearing into the ground as you ignore the stall warning horn while making perfectly-phrased radio calls in response to an amended TAF, nobody will praise your controlling skills as you skillfully process VFR SARTIMEs while ignoring the 30 aircraft in your sector who are all entitled to a separation service.

Cancelling SARTIME on the radio is just getting ATC to call CENSAR for you. I don't think any ATC think it isn't part of the job but when it's all turning to carp in CTA, relaying messages for VFR in G isn't the priority.

Edit: You can't equate the controller's responsibility of holding SARWATCH with relaying SARTIME cancellations.

Nautilus Blue
3rd Sep 2010, 03:18
One thing to come from this is the different perspective of ATC's and pilots. To us (ATC) VFR SARTIME and IFR Sarwatch are as different as apples and suspension bridges, as explained above. But I guess as a pilot (who are the point of the whole exercise after all), canceling SAR and terminating SARTIME are almost exactly the same. I'd never thought about it like that before.

NB

PS thank Phil, although 10% and 1%? no one will believe figures that round! I'm surprised only 1% go to phases, but some expired SARTIMES must be for aircraft still flying and late, as opposed to landed but forgot to cancel.

peuce
3rd Sep 2010, 04:00
Both sides here have very valid points and, as Nautilus says ... it's all about perceptions.

An interesting quote from FL400 though:

I don't think any ATC think it isn't part of the job but when it's all turning to carp in CTA, relaying messages for VFR in G isn't the priority.

That's the very issue that was pointed out to Mr Smith & Co ... many moons ago. You really can't have an ATC providing different services to high flying jets and low level bug smashers ... at the same time. That is why we had ATC and FS.

I'm sure the bug smasher trying to cancel his imminent Sartime believes it is a pretty high priority. Obviously, the ATC with two 747s nose to nose thinks otherwise.

Both points of view are correct ... it's the system that's wrong :=

P.S. Phil, I bet you're glad you started this thread ;)

makespeed250kt
3rd Sep 2010, 05:22
Icarus2001BC :ugh:

FL400- Spot on:ok:

RR RB211
3rd Sep 2010, 12:46
Can't believe I never thought of the phone alarm idea.

And here is me thinking wearing my watch on my other hand was a pretty fool proof way to remember to call and cancel sartime for all those years until I started flying in my first job more regularly and the watch spent just as much time on each wrist and the inevitable happened.

Thank heavens for ifr and hf radio, though I do miss the satphones we once had.

baffler15
3rd Sep 2010, 22:37
Slight thread drift, but does anyone know if there is a non-1800 number for CENSAR? I've used the (07) capital city landline numbers for BN CEN to cancel IFR SARWATCHs when VHF comms are a bit sketchy, but can't find an equivalent for CENSAR in the ERSA, or anywhere else for that matter. Call me cheap, but I'm getting a little sick of paying Telstra extra money for the 1800 calls I make to cancel my SARTIMEs with CENSAR, that aren't included in the usual NextG cap plan call allowances.

Baffler
:ok:

peuce
3rd Sep 2010, 23:30
Some more lateral thinking out loud .....

Can you send them an email? If not, why not?
Can you SMS them? If not, why not?

compressor stall
4th Sep 2010, 00:33
Baffler15. There is/ was a number that I used to use from a Satphone. However the message did not get passed on several times causing some angst.

Ex FSO GRIFFO
4th Sep 2010, 05:01
G'Day Peuce,

I've actually 'passed this on' to a source who should be able to either 'assist' or tell us 'why not'..??

I believe those methods you suggest are simply other means of 'communication'......

VHF vs HF vs Tel .....etc etc

Cheers, and will advise any 'result'/response......:ok::ok:

SgtBundy
4th Sep 2010, 13:54
Peuce - the only problem I see with SMS or e-mail is that they are relay based, so until you get a reply back there is no way to know they actually got the cancellation and it was actioned successfully. So if the pilot does not get an acknowledgement in time it would still be on them to call up anyway.

That said, it's probably just as reliable in most circumstances anyway.

PyroTek
4th Sep 2010, 14:16
I'm pretty sure you can cancel a SARTIME through NAIPS if you use the same login details as you did to Submit the Flight Notification. - But that involves paying for telstra Next-G internet! (Unless you have included data on your phone and have NAIPS for iPhone etc.)

Dangly Bits
4th Sep 2010, 14:21
When I make an appointment with my Physio, I get a reminder SMS the day before to remind me. Now if my 2 man Physio practice can afford this technology, why can't AsA send me an SMS 5 minutes out to remind me?
Would be a lot cheaper than chasing so many missed sartimes. 8 cents is cheap Mr Russell.

DB

Nautilus Blue
5th Sep 2010, 02:55
If CENSAR charged like pysio's, I'm sure they'd be happy to SMS you ;) Plus you end up in circle where we chase you to remind you to cancel SARTIME, so we don't have to chase you when you don't cancel SARTIME.

You could achieve the same thing by setting an alarm on your phone for 5 minutes prior to SARTIME, oh wait...