Heroes....amongst us and we just don't realize it!

[SASless]

Every now and then we bump into someone that we are in awe of....and usually we don't understand exactly why. I grew up around a fellow like that. A very gentlemanly and gentle Man, loyal to his wife, deeply in love with her, great Father, good Churchman, and plainly a Leader.

This old fellow went to Canada, joined the RCAF before Pearl Harbor, refused to shift to the US Army Air Corps....flew 25 missions on Lanc's and returned to his home and took up life as though nothing had happened.

The local rag heard of him and recently did a short article about him.

His book, "The Way It Was!", written like a Grandfather talking to his grandson....is a very moving account of his life and experiences.

How many of these gallant old fellows are we losing to old age?

If you know of one.....take the old Coot out for lunch....buy him a Pint....get to know him while you can!

I did....and it meant the world to him.....and to me to have had the honor of hearing his life story first hand.


Former war pilot tells life stories (http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2010/aug/23/former-war-pilot-tells-life-stories-winston-salems/)

[kevmusic]

A great story, and your right, SASless........we've got to catch the old buggers PDQ!

One twist in the story though. The 'Lancaster' in the photo is actually a Halifax!

[SASless]

The news reporter can be forgiven for not knowing the difference I suppose. His squadron converted to Lanc's and was based at Middleton-St. George (Teeside) as I recall. My copy of his book is with a friend....so I cannot quote the details from memory.

He was with the RCAF 428th Bomb Squadron.

No. 428 Squadron , Canadian Air Force (http://rcaf.com/Squadrons/squadronDetail.php?No.-428-Squadron-8)

[Pontius Navigator]

I met two in the last couple of years. One flew Wellingtons on ASW missions in the Gulf of Aden; the other was a Hurricane pilot in Murmansk.

Both hidden corners of the war and both fascinating. The odd thing was neither looked to be even 80 years of age.

[Tankertrashnav]

An excellent thread. Over the course of many years running a shop selling militaria I quite naturally met hundreds of veterans of both world wars (I'm going back 30 years) and other conflicts. A few were obvious liars and braggarts, but the vast majority were quiet modest people who, if drawn out, often had astounding tales to tell. My favourite was a chap who as a merchant seaman had been sunk no less than 5 times, once by an American warship (collision at sea) and once by a V1 in Antwerp!

For a few years I did the lunchtime speaking circuit, where I encouraged those present to talk as much as possible to their ageing relatives and either get them to write it down or to record it, or to do it themselves. Time is even shorter now for the WW2 guys so don't waste any opportunity.

[forget]

One twist in the story though. The 'Lancaster' in the photo is actually a Halifax!

:confused: The caption's fine. Bill Googe, who grew up in Ardmore, is pictured with his squadron from the Royal Canadian Air Force in World War II. Googe piloted the British Lancaster bomber.

[Pontius Navigator]

Having read the article and looked at the photograph I wonder whether George really did fly the Lancaster or whether the journalist looked at the photograph and thought it was a Lancaster?

It would be easy enough for someone to look up George's sorties in the war diaries and confirm which he flew in.

[forget]

It's a pity that nostalgia kicks in too late to make the most of it. I left RAF Waddington in late '69 and a couple of years later I was with Bristows in Sumatra. The fortnightly transport between Singapore and Sumatra was by SAATAS QueenAir or Cessna 310 flown by a top rate bunch of Aussies. One of these was Keith Schultz. I cannot believe, now, that we never got around to discussing Keith's time at Waddington. Here he is, going to work with his mates, second fom the left. DFC and Bar.

Air Force News :: Features (http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/4712/features/feature01.htm)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/schultz.jpg

PS. Not as if he was stuck for things to talk about.

schultzk (http://www.467463raafsquadrons.com/Pdat463/schultzk.htm)

[Double Zero]

I used to work with a very decent chap, mainly knew him through my Dad playing golf with him, and his owning an MGBGT, the only thing we had in common was we both wrote off our examples !

Ray Grayston turned out to have been a Flight Engineer on the Dam -Busters raid...

Another of our lot was Frank Smith, who had a glass eye after being blown out of a tank in the El Alamein campaign.

Both were quite willing to talk about their experiences, but one had to ask them first, they wouldn't go around mentioning their exploits.

As the gist of this thread says, such people are solid gold, if nothing else drag them off to a pub and buy them a pint saying 'Thank You' at the very least !

[bobward]

Forty years ago, when I first started work in the offshore industry, the company had a commercial manager, called Shannon. Only when he left did I find out he was David Shannon, also late of 617 fame......

Like many of the quiet heroes you've mentioned, he never talked about the unit. he did, however, enjoy the odd sherbert at a social do.......:hmm::hmm:

A real character I'm proud to say I met all that time ago.

[barnstormer1968]

While still in uniform, I used to volunteer to do any remembrance parades or funeral parties for WW2 veterans. There were a little gaggle of us that did this, and it was an ultra rewarding job.

I would do my best to be turned out smart at these occasions, and have my uniform ultra pressed, which was no fun when wearing a great coat!

I loved talking with the veterans and to hear their stories of days gone by. One thing that stood out on every parade was the getting together in the bar or mess afterwords.
Once the lads and ladies had been in the bar for a few minutes, they would order a drink and then get chatting to each other, and then they would magically transform into young people in OAP bodies. I am being serious here, and it has to be seen to be believed, how these folks eyes would literally transform and look youthful and playful again (I am sure many of you know what I mean). The stories that followed this were often told 'of the moment' and the joy of happy times was as clearly evident as the horror of the bad times.

I learned so much about humanity, humility and courage in these conversations, and it has left a lasting impression on me until this day.

A comical example of this was a story told of how a driver woke up in his cab, only to hear someone shouting at him at the top of his voice. He was getting out of the cab to see who it was, only to find it was an RMP screaming at him to get back in. He had fallen asleep at the wheel, and driven off the road, into a mine field!

A very sad example being: I was chatting to one man, who had witnessed the liberation (or not long after) of one of the concentration camps. He and his brother were in the same unit, and were both at the same camp, and saw the same sights. He said that after that time his brother was so horrified at the sight that he stopped talking to anyone, and sank deeper and deeper into depression, and committed suicide not too long after.

[Pontius Navigator]

BS, aye, I was a Runymede this year. I noticed a car in the car park with a brevet badge. I went up and saw it was the Air Gunners' Association. I nodded at the chap in the car.

A minute or two later he got out with his photo album. He had been a rear gunner aged just 18 and his crew had flown all its missions and not suffered any damage whatever. As he said a lucky crew.

I told him I was ex-Vulcans and he was tickled pink to meet me as he said he had never met anyone on V-bombers before that. Bet he had but never known it.

[SASless]

Pont....can you point me in the direction of the diaries you mentioned?

Googe has his own records and lists his missions by name for most part in his book (which is not at hand unfortunately)...but it would be informative for me to see where his Squadron went and note the losses they suffered. One place I was researching reported a loss of 200 aircraft but I could not determine if it was the Squadron or the Group that had lost that many. It would be mind boggling to think it was the Squadron that could lose that many during the course of the war as the unit would have had what....16-20 aircraft assigned at a time?

In his book...when he listed missions, it was usually just a date and a City name....with more than a few visits to quiet places like Berlin and the like. When something of particular note took place he would be more forthcoming about the mission.

[Pontius Navigator]

SASLess, I am not sure as it may only list casualties so it might not show crews that survived. There is a set, one for each year of the war, with the 1943 (IIRC) being the thickest, that lists the crew of every aircrft on every raid that was shot down.

What it would list is the aircraft type for his squadron around the time of the Dresden raids. It would also show when the 18 missions in 21 days occurred as it is likely that there would have been a concentration of losses over those raids in a 3 weeks period.

[Double Zero]

I am, for my sins, a bit of a yachtie.

For quite a few years, when I visited Emsworth Marina ( South England coast, straddles the border between Hampshire & West Sussex, most choose Hampshire ! ) - there was a Rolls Royce parked a trifle awkwardly by a sign, 'Admiral Gick', who owned and had developed the marina.

I never met him personally, but crassly thought he was another stuffed shirt ( I'd had bad experiences in personal not professional life with a couple ).

It was only when reading his obituary that I learned this was the chap, who with his Swordfish crew, took out the Bismark's rudder !

I would dearly have liked to talk with him, if I had anything to contribute.

A good friend, Charlie Solley, was on the Murmansk convoys, Leading Air Mechanic on Swordfish. He recounted that they had to start the engines on the way up on the lift, as the wind chill would otherwise prevent starting !

The least I could do for Charlie was to say a few words at his funeral. At our mutual sailing club the idiot newsletter editor went against my expressed wishes ( she had a thing against Charlie, while not able to sail out of a wet paper bag herself ) so I went to a little war, posting details of his accomplishments - Follands at Chilbolton before joining Hawkers, becoming Chief Inspector on the Harrier sales tour of South America with John Farley.

John stated ( please excuse me if not 100% accurate John ) " Charlie was
there not for money, not for personal advancement, simply because he could do his bit "

There are quite a few pilots at our little, informal club, mostly ex-RAF then airliner.

They took a great interest in Charlie's career ( he began and ended with engines called Pegasus ) and caused a bit of a stir as to how he didn't get more recognition.

We at the sailing club also had Dennis Warren, who was Chief Draughtsman at Dunsfold - he'd been on the Fairey Delta 2 project, and seemed delighted & surprised when I gave him a copy of Peter Twiss's book, 'Faster Than The Sun'.

Grab such people and take them for a pint while you can...

[deltahotel]

My Father-in-law was recently 90. Served in the Signals in N Africa, Salerno, Anzio among others. Usually only talks about the funny stuff that happened, occasionally the less funny.

[bear11]

Reminds me of a Latvian mate of mine whos father flew fighters with the Russian airforce in WW2. Did he ever talk about it to his son? "No. But he used to meet his old airforce mates at our house a couple of times I year, I heard him talking about it then while I was hiding behind the kitchen door."

What were they talking about? "Oh, they were just sitting around eating sausage, drinking vodka, and talking about all the women they screwed during the war."

Plus ca change.:O

[DC10RealMan]

This reminds me of the story which was told to me about a VC holder from World War II whose wife only found out that her husband had won the VC in the late 1950s from the local butcher.

[SASless]

While digging through some old family documents....ran across a letter from my Grand Dad's Platoon Leader complimenting him on being nominated for the Medal of Honor. More interesting was Grand Dad's reply to the Lieutenant.

Grand Dad down played his actions....and said in his letter..." I felt safe enough going out to bring in the wounded as I knew the Insurgents would be aiming at me." I guess Gramps did not think much of the bad guys' markmanship.

Gramps wound getting the DSC....which for a Private was a pretty big deal in those days!

What he did was go out under fire to retrieve wounded soldiers that had been shot during an ambush by Philippine Rebels in the Philippine Insurrection circa 1898-1900 time frame.

Shame....I never got to meet Grand Dad before he died.

[Rhayader]

There are things we can do. In a pretty informal arrangement our local RBL organiser will call up members to see if they will run one of the few WWII veterans left in the town to the hospital, doctors, shopping or whatever. While the local ambulance transport is quite efficient the old boys prefer to be taken by someone they know. These trips invariable end up in a pub where the banter and stories can be superb (even if it is the tenth time you have heard it).

One lad who must be nearly 90 (1st Army. Tunisia, Salerno, Germany, Holland) insists on marching in the parade every rememberance sunday. For the last few years he has been placed in the middle rank and to be honest he has been supported/carried from either side. No matter, he insists so he will carry on doing it until we have to wheel him about.

Easy to combine a bit of useful help with a great deal of pleasure.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Re the first story of Googe. If you look at 428 Sqdn history it clearly states that they re-equipped with CANADIAN Lancasters in June 1944. The Halifax is a red herring. He actually flew Lancasters made in Canada.

[Double Zero]

My Dad is 86 now, and still seems fitter than I am.

Since my hasty divorce I live 'back at home', a huge advantage of which is sitting at night prising stories out of him - he was a Leading Air Mechanic on Seafires at Salerno ( we have often discussed why the hell the Sea Hurricane wasn't more used, for its' more robust gear, Dad's carrier HMS Unicorn went from 30 to 6 Seafires in 2 days, all landing accidents ! ) then briefly from various Seafires he was on
Helllcats, and later was at D-Day, Lee On Solent, when 897 Squadron was sent U.S. Battleship Kingfisher Pilots to help spot fall of shot for the Warspite etc.

In the middle of the war Dad was posted to Escort carriers, the Stalker and Khedive.

One story I did manage to get out of him, was they tried fitting an early drop-tank on the Seafire, connected by a glass tube; the 'ground crew' ended up ankle deep in high octane fuel sloshing from side to side !

Small wonder that the first of class, HMS Dasher, blew up with the loss of almost all hands then.

Dad went on through Hunter times to become the top crew-chief on Exprimental Harriers, both Sea and Mark 2 /GR5 versions - his approach to early problems when stuck in West Freugh which theoretically required the wing off was shall we say surgically robust !

I worked as a guide at Tangmere last year, and by sheer chance met a delightful lady who contributes to the Imperial War Museum.

We ended up at her and her husband's house near Guildford with her interviewing Dad - Stan Lawson - on tape, and this will be available for anyone who cares to listen.

If anyone knows a similar veteran, I'd be very happy to pass on contact details.

[scarecrow450]

Please, please try and get these stories on paper before its too late. When in the ROC had the pleasure of drinking ! with an elderly gentleman whose job during WWII was to fix Spitfires the RAF could'nt. He worked at Supermarine and was sent all over the country to fix airframes the RAF thought were w/o. A fellow observer tried many years ago to get his stories down but he said no one will be interested. Andy you were very, very wrong. !

[Wander00]

DZ- Sorry about your divorce, but does that give you some sort of record as the oldest "boomerang-kid"?

[Bob Viking]

I have always been very close to my Grandparents (both still alive thankfully) and have always seen them on a very regular basis. With this in mind it came as some surprise to me at the age of 25 when my Grandad casually mentioned how he and his younger brother helped their Dad dig the family out of their garden after some nasty German dropped a bomb on their house!
They lived in Sheffield during the war and after that fateful night had to live elsewhere until the government saw fit to rebuild their house. He then spent a couple of years (with no R&R) sailing around the Med on an Escort Carrier.
The bombing was so commonplace in those days that it didn't seem exceptional to him. So much so that he didn't mention it until I happened to be asking him about the war.
Nowadays someone gets a 6 figure book deal to talk about the time they were stung by a wasp! Makes you think.
BV

[Double Zero]

Wander00,

As I'm ****** unlikey to get a world speed record (except for my escape process from that marriage ) , I'll take what's going !

I was very lucky to work with quite a few veterans; rest assured they were and are appreciated, even by relatively young idiots like me and my chums, and I am not alone in trying to teach the earlier generation of schoolchildren ( who are surprisingly interested ) .

I am trying to write a few true tales down; I feel it would be wrong to try and make a profit out of other people's do or die efforts, so intend to publish them for free, or at least covering publishers'costs; I've dealt with them before and wasn't impressed.

Please feel free to PM or e-mail me.

Andy, DZ

[Wander00]

DZ - I'm with you on recording veterans' experiences, Indeed I am hoping to add another to the site shortly. "Boomerang kids" is the expression for (usually) youngsters who leave home for uni or marriage, finish the course (in either sense) and then return to the parents' home. You seem to have achieved that state rather later than is usual.

[SASless]

9,000 Americans joined the RCAF during the War....379 died in Bomber Command. Well over 2,000 remained in the RCAF until the end of the war....while the rest transferred to the American Military at some point.

Americans in the RCAF (http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/americansrcaf.html)

[Double Zero]

Wander00,

I'm familiar with the term...

Back to topic, I was lucky enough to work with quite a few heroes; as a photographer I sometimes only found out about their accomplishments when I took their retirement pictures, and wished I'd known earlier.

I remember JF doing Ted Fittons' farewell speech, " This is the only person I know who survived an engine failure on take-off in a Mosquito ! "

Ted was an unassuming clerk -like figure, little did I know !

While he was not an aviator, I wish I'd had more time with my uncle, Jim Evans.

He was in the Infantry, captured in Crete. When I knew him he was very deaf - courtesy of being badly beaten with a German rifle for attempting escape; on his 3rd try he made it, as everyone was a lot more scared of the approaching Russians !

I was once on a train back from Victoria, when I found myself sitting opposite a chap wearing a lot of medals, some of which even I recognized.

I said " if I had a hat I'd take it off to you Sir " and we got chatting.

He'd been in Singapore when it was over-run, and a group of British nurses were marched into the sea then machine gunned in the back; and people wonder why I won't have a German or Japanese car...

[Wokkafans]

DZ - interesting about your uncle in Crete. My grandfather was there but was lucky enough to escape sailing on a landing ship with a Major Garret and 135 others to North Africa using blankets for sails as they had no fuel! This was something I only found out when discussing an item in a Victor annual I received as I child for Christmas and on discussing this with my father he told me that my grandfather was one of those involved.

Although I regretfully never had the chance to discuss the war with him (I always thought there would be the time) for what I can tell he had an interesting war. In the Royal Marines and then Comando's before helping out with the LRDG in North Africa blowing up airfields and the like. During the Italian landings he was sunk three times in as many hours - something my father tells me he was loathe to talk about as his abiding memory was of the screams of those trapped below and the smell of burning flesh. After being captured by the Italians (and escaping) he was off to the Far East - noone knows what he was up to but he would never have anything Japenese in the house so we can only presume it was not good.

Such a great opportunity missed and one that I will always regret. Brave (and modest) men indeed.

[Lightning5]

Many year's ago (pre 9/11) I was jump seat riding on a 767 from Mel to Singapore working for a large UK charter. As it was the custom in those days,, passengers were allowed to visit the F/Deck to have a look see. Enter an old gentleman. As the crew were busy doing "things" I had the task of explaining the various bits at the front end to the gentleman. His first comment was that it had been many years since he had flown and when I asked why he was "blighty" bound, he said that he was going back to look for his crew. With that, he pulled out of his pocket a tattered bit of paper with the names of his crew. He asked where he should start, and being ex RAF, I explained the various organisations that may help. Also falling out of his wallet was a little card that described him as a member of the Catterpiller Club (which I believe is issued to aircrew that have used Irving parachutes). When I asked him when he last saw his crew he stated "over Holland , 1944, at 2000ft in a burning Lanc". By this time he had the full attention of th guys up front !! They all got out and he was picked up by the Dutch resistance and spent the next 50 years back in OZ as a sheep farmer and never flew again, except for this trip. Never did find out if he found them all, I hope so for his sake, a true gentleman.:ok: