Massey University and future job in NZ

[jef777]

Hey everyone,

I'm wanting to go to Massey University next year to become a pilot. I've read that a few people don't seem to like Massey to much, but from what I've read i won't be able to get a job in any major airline without a bachelor degree ( please correct me if I'm wrong there).

I was wondering if anyone here is currently going through he Massey university course and what they thought about the course and had any advise about the entry requirements ( the interview and the tests).


After completing the Massey course what sort of job would i likely be able to get, would it be at the morning herald delivery flight level, higher? lower?

What is the likelihood of a company like Air New Zealand hiring someone out of Massey in 2014?

Any information at all would be greatly appreciated seeing i have to send in applications soon and i want to make sure I'm making the right choice.

[empacher48]

I have never been through the Massey flying school, but I do hold a degree from Massey though.. I'm sure I can answer some of your questions..

After completing the Massey course what sort of job would i likely be able to get, would it be at the morning herald delivery flight level, higher? lower?

You'll likely be looking for a job along with anyone else with a new CPL along the lines of glider towing, parachute dropping, intructing or if you're really lucky a job scenic flying. In NZ you can't fly Single Pilot in GA IFR operations until you have about 750 hours total time, so if you finish your Massey degree with about 200 hours, you're going to have to find about 600 odd hours before you'll be let loose in a light twin by yourself.

What is the likelihood of a company like Air New Zealand hiring someone out of Massey in 2014?

Slim to non existant. Air NZ won't be hiring until about 2016, and there are a large number of pilots already working for Mt Cook, Air Nelson, Eagle, Vincent, Air National who are looking at a job with Air NZ - those pilots are likely to have thousands of hours experience. Air New Zealand won't hire a fresh CPL pilot - their minimums at the moment are 2000 hours total time but most people will have a lot more than that.

If you want to do the degree - as you pointed out it is helpful to have, you may want to think about doing a degree in a totally different field (ie Engineering, accounting or whatever takes your fancy), before you take up flying - then spend the money at your local flying school or aeroclub.

[notaplanegeek]

you're going to have to find about 600 odd hours before you'll be let loose in a light twin by yourself.


Tried looking for a twin job lately? More like 1500hrs before you get in a twin in this economic climate.

[Goat Whisperer]

The only people who can tell you that you NEED a degree to get into the airlines are those touting degrees for pilots.

I got my licence at Massey and 15 years on I'm still not sure it was the best move, although it has worked out for me.

[4Greens]

Get paid to fly. Join the military short term and if the worst comes to the worst you might like it.

[mattyj]

Whatever you do don't listen to anyone who works for Massey! They are all highly competent, lovely people...but they will tell you ANYTHING to get your business.

Find somebody who works for a twin engine or turbine or jet operation as a pilot and ask them how long, and what they had to do to get where they are..that should give you a reasonable idea.

[remoak]

Join the military short term

With a return of service of ten years for a pilot (after completion of training), there is really no such thing as a short term military career in the RNZAF.

Even if there was, you would have to content with flying ancient and somewhat unexciting equipment (on the fixed-wing side at any rate).

The RNZAF is a complete dead end, don't go there.

You also need to recognise that as a raw Massey graduate, you are basically unemployable in NZ without considerable extra experience. You would be far better off going to CTC and getting a EASA (Euro) licence if you have the right to live in Europe, there are several airlines there that hire raw graduates.

[nike]

It's a pretty good question, isn't it?

Why become a pilot in the 20-double digits? (or whatever this decade we have just started is called).

For those who've been in aviation for a little bit, or more, what sage advice do you (can you) give to the next generation?

PPRuNe and all us evil little posters aside, if we truly tried to be nothing but nice, what positives can honestly be given to the these up & comers asking for the gen?

With regards to the NZ scene (and not necessarily limited to), it has to be going through one of the biggest hurry up and wait cycles for some time.

All a bit morbid or just too cynical?

[waren9]

Dont go to Massey. Keep away from the sausage factories. You will be taught by last years graduates. Getting taught the "airline way" is bullsh1t. It does nothing to prepare you for your first few jobs in singles, in the hills and crap weather by yourself. The airlines will teach you themselves how they want you to fly when you get there.

Getting your licence is the easy bit. As others have hinted, getting a job is the hard bit. Military will give you a licence, life skills, unbeatable experiences and plenty of attitude. It will cost you 8 or 10 years of your life.

Do your licence with an operator that does commercial work and also does a bit of training. Your training is your job interview and you will be trained how he wants you.

Better still, as Remoak says consider leaving NZ. Progression is very slow. All a degree shows is that you have a rudimentary capacity to learn. It will be a very expensive piece of paper.

[HercFeend]

Even if there was, you would have to content with flying ancient and somewhat unexciting equipmentThe CT4/E were produced around 1994 I believe. I don't know where you trained but the PA38s & PA28s I've spent all my training hours in date from the early to mid 80s.........


The RNZAF is a complete dead end, don't go there. I don't feel this is an uniformed statement - jaded certainly? Most military pilots I know have gone onto, if they've continued to fly, a great career in civil aviation and continued to do well.

If you're happy to commit 10 years of your life and a great deal of hard work there are certainty worse choices you could make with your life....... And the training you will receive is second to none - no question! It's an oldie but a goodie: "If I had my time again....."

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Don't take Massey's word for it.

Check the Airlines websites. You will then get it straight from the source if a degree is required or not.

If Massey has spun you BS about the Airline requirments, do you trust them with your training?.

[Ipecac]

There's no way any airline in this country is going to hire you straight out of school (unless you get into a cadetship programme like JetStar but that's a whole other story).

A degree is worthwhile but consider doing something other then an aviation degree. For instance an accounting qualification could land you a job with an aviation company and get you in that way. However you may wish to brush up on your english skills if you're going to do a uni degree :8:}

Parachute dropping usually requires 1000hrs minimum if they operate turbines. That's for insurance purposes.

As for small airlines you'll need to know what they fly and what rules those aircraft come under. If it's a light twin with 9 seats or less that's Part135 and you need 750hrs plus 50hrs on an IFR flight plan. If it's a Grand Caravan that's Part125 and they require 1200hrs!

Instructing is usually the most secure route here in NZ and if you do it through Massey they give their students first pick for instructing jobs (as do most other schools eg Ardmore, Bayflight etc).

Otherwise be prepared to leave the country. The Northern Territories in Australia, and Africa during the start of the summer season is a good place to look for jobs but you will need to be there in person (don't expect to get anywhere by emailing your CV).

I wish you all the best. Aviation is a tough nut to crack but it's worth all the headaches if you can stick it out.

[remoak]

HercFeend

The CT4/E were produced around 1994 I believe. I don't know where you trained but the PA38s & PA28s I've spent all my training hours in date from the early to mid 80s......... So in the RNZAF you train in 16 year old, basic aircraft based on a design from the '60's, whereas if you go to Massey or CTC for example, you have those nice new plastic thingies with all the nice toys - which I am guessing are only a few years old? I know which I'd choose! I did learn on a PA38, but at the time, it was only three years old.


If you're happy to commit 10 years of your life and a great deal of hard work there are certainty worse choices you could make with your lifeThe problem with that is, that when the next hiring boom happens (in fact probably the next two if we are talking ten years), you will be stuck in a uniform flying a P3 or a Herc (all of which are 1960's airframes) or an old King Air. As I understand it, only the senior folk get to fly the (also very old) 757. All of your mates will be poling around in Airbii or newish 737s (the lucky ones on 777's and next gen equipment).

The current worldwide pilot requirement exceeds 10,000 pilots over the next ten years (Boeing figures). With most major aviation users showing a decline in new pilot licence issues, now is actually a perfect time to be getting ready. It's very much like it was in the early '80s, when folks were getting right-seat gigs in 767s (in Europe) and similar with only 1000 hours. Those days are coming back, get involved in the military and you will miss it for sure.

The other problem with the RNZAF is that it is in decline, apart from possibly on the helicopter side. Fixed wing has seen no serious investment for decades (since Kahu I would think, the P3 upgrade and SLEP don't really count), and the axing of the strike and Macchi fleets by good old Red Helen was really the end of the RNZAF as a credible force. Don't waste your time.

[Aerozepplin]

the end of the RNZAF as a credible force.

Oh come on, you can't rip into the 757s for being too old then say that Auntie Helen killed our razor sharp strike force by mothballing the (pre) Vietnam era Skyhawks. Sharpen up your act Remoak or you'll lose your ministerial portfolio. :=

[mattyj]

The airforce can be pretty cruel too...they drastically reduce your hours after initial unit training, and then yearly after that. There's checks 6 monthly that are pretty terrifying which can spell lengthly spells driving desks if you don't pass (or don't join in the bottom spanking and upside down whiskey drinking larrikins) and everyone is expected to do less flying as time goes on and more admin...never underestimate the defence force for producing admin!!

On the bright side, a moustache seems less important in your long term career these days!

[HercFeend]

Let's just put it down to a difference of opinions or perspectives huh. I know plenty of guys who walked away from the Air Force after a career flying Hercs (old Ks not new glass Js) straight into Airbus, 737 & 747 etc jobs with various airlines all at various times over the last 5 years. It would seem 'they' like ex military pilots and will hire them whenever not just in line with a 'big push'..... And with so many ex mil pilots in the civil industry I can't see that changing in the near future.

As for shiny new plastic toys, you know those places are few and far between, however this topic is about a guy wanting to go to Massey so fair point.

Incidentally, what is it with peoples apparent single minded overwhelming desire to become an airline pilot? It's not, personally speaking, even on my radar yet.......I want to have some fun flying first! Oh, that brings me nicely back to military aviation - would an ATO let you take one of their shiny jets through a valley in a 90 degree bank at 200 feet....... mwah hah haaaaa :E

[jef777]

Thanks for all the replies.

I'm not really interested in the air force as it take 10 years, and it not something that sounds to interesting for me.

Find somebody who works for a twin engine or turbine or jet operation as a pilot and ask them how long, and what they had to do to get where they are
Could anyone give a a brief run down of there experience to get where they are now?

I've read quite a few times that it might be better off to study something unrelated to aviation for a degree and get my license at CTC (or not Massey). Are there any major advantages or disadvantages to this?

I really have no problem with leaving NZ to get a job, if that's where the money is.

[BurntheBlue]

Ok, so you're not interested in the RNZAF, point taken. I have to say though, to all you nay sayers, the experience you can gain from 10years in the RNZAF is second to nothing any civilian outfit can offer you in NZ. HercFeend's account is just one of so many enviable activities our esteemed Air Force gets up to. :}

Jef

I'm currently driving a light twin in NZ. When I got the job I had CPL, Bcat, Current SPMEIR, The right type rating, 1400tt, more circuits than I would wish upon anyone and in this climate, I would consider myself lucky to have landed it. But times they are a-changeing.

Yea it's a difficult nut to crack, but if you love it, it's worth it. It isn't a job, it's bouncing out of bed in the morning because, today, some nutter is going to pay you to fly their aeroplane. It's one challenge/goal after another and if you don't let your hands go idle, they will never be bored. :ok:

If you want a little more info, PM me.

[mattyj]

I really have no problem with leaving NZ to get a job, if that's where the money is

thats not where the money is..its where the (entry level) jobs are..theres no money in aviation..even the biggest airlines have to turnover a billion dollars to scrape 50-100 million profit..they won't share any of that with you until you've been in the left seat for 5 years. If you can hang in until you're mid forties or 50..you'll be rich my man!

[remoak]

HercFeend

I want to have some fun flying first!

Absolutely. After 20 years of poling airliners around, I agree that it is as boring as hell. Most airlines these days have monitoring systems that dob you in if you try anything even remotely resembling creative expression, and long haul is just systems monitoring. The only fun bit is the things you can buy with the money (and occasionally a decent hotel in a nice city, assuming of course that you aren't too fatigued to enjoy it).

However it is still better for many than all the bullsh*t that goes on in the military.

would an ATO let you take one of their shiny jets through a valley in a 90 degree bank at 200 feet....... mwah hah haaaaa

No, but then neither would the RNZAF! Seeing as they don't have any...
It would seem 'they' like ex military pilots and will hire them whenever not just in line with a 'big push'.....

Yes that would be the only good thing about joining the forces, the "Old Boys" network which facilitates such activities in some airlines... mostly those which feature lots of ex-squadron buddies in management roles.

Aerozepplin

Oh come on, you can't rip into the 757s for being too old then say that Auntie Helen killed our razor sharp strike force by mothballing the (pre) Vietnam era Skyhawks.

Fair point, but the 757s are around 17 years old... first delivered in 1993. Pretty old for a Boeing!

[minimum_wage]

Jef,

Go talk to Air Discovery in Tauranga. They do flight training and run ATO's. Also the owner is a Air NZ link training captain and it is a bloody decent little operation now.

[HercFeend]

remoak:

No, but then neither would the RNZAF! Seeing as they don't have any... lol, you know what I mean.......you cheeky so-n-so! :ok:

Besides, the boy's said he doesn't want to join the military. There's obviously something wrong with him but nevertheless the point is moot! :E Laters.

[Konev]

if your serious about aviation then ditch the straight to airline idea. its not going to happen no matter how much sausage factories advertise it like that.

aim for GA and work your way up the ladder. you might not like the thought of it but it will help you down the line, especially if you want to fly for Air NZ or one of the subsidiary company's.

[hueyshuffle]

Mate have you considered the Australian Armed Forces? If you have the right to live or work in Oz (ie. If you are a resident of Australia) then it might be worth looking into it. I reckon the armed forces are a great way to go (I would be quite happily flying old machines in the RNZAF right now if I'd got in).

The arguement about missing the next two hiring booms over the next ten years isn't too valid in my opinion because there will be a boom after that which you can get in on. And another Commonwealth country's armed forces will be happy to have you if you decide to move to another country after your ROSO.

In terms of Massey or another Sausage factory; Inclined to say Massey is probably the bottom of the pile in terms of which Sausage factory to pick. Many don't have the option of going to a small aero club because they need the student loan. If you do need a student loan, then yes Tauranga is a good option (only ever heard good things about the place) and Canterbury isn't too bad either. Dunno much about CTC but it might help if you had a double barreled family name, and a stiff upper lip.

@Remoak: 10,000 new pilots you reckon? I hope so mate! Quite keen on a job at the moment!

And Konev's right. Forget getting into an Airline when you finish your CPL. Pick training that will prepare you for GA because that's how it works.

[remoak]

HercFeend

ol, you know what I mean

Actually what I should have said is that the RNZAF does have some, but nobody is qualified to fly them... every time I park up at Woodbourne, I wonder if I could get away with borrowing one of those sad-looking airframes...

hueyshuffle

The problem is that military pilots tend to do a lot less flying than their civil counterparts, so in 15 years, you would not only have a lot fewer hours, but at age 35+ would be getting toward the higher limit for being hired as an F/O with a decent airline.

You will also find that some airlines love ex-military guys - usually because their squadron buddies are in management - but others are quite anti-military. The last airline I worked for in Europe (140+ aircraft) was very anti-military indeed. We found that most military pilots bring a lot of baggage with them and tend to be hard to integrate into the civil environment. A lot of them never get over the Boys Own adventure that they found the forces to be - white leather flying gloves and all.

Having said that, some ex-mil guys I have flown with over the years have been pure gold and I learned a lot from them, so there you go...

10,000 new pilots you reckon? I hope so mate! Quite keen on a job at the moment!


Check this out -

Boeing unit tries to speed pilot training to fill high demand (http://www.seattlepi.com/business/313681_pilotshortage30.html)