I am considering trying to buy a share in an aircraft as a means to cheaper hour building in the UK.. .Can anyone explain the costs... .There is a share at my club at the mo it is as follows;. .£15 per hour wet. .£50 per month. .£2000 share cost(1/10th)

Does the "Wet" cost mean £15 per hour including fuel?. .Apologies if I am asking the obvious but I would appreciate any assistance.

That's right - it includes fuel.

Fairly near to you, Barton has traditionally had 2 or 3 group aircraft used by hour builders. They generally work very well but the winter weather does have an effect on how much you can do. The soft green sward of Barton does tend to suffer but the overall economics are such that it is still very worthwhile.

Over the years I've had shares in 3 Barton based aircraft and it worked very well for me - a strongly recommended method of gaining hours in European airspace at American prices.

There is also the psychological aspect. Gaining hours in an aircraft you have a financial interest in makes most people approach flying in a subtley different way compared to just hiring an anonymous trainer.

Consider how people treat a hire car compared to their own................

Rob Lloyd

This is standard for most syndicates, to quote these three figures. I'm in a PA-28 syndicate at £2,500, £35/mth, £48/hr wet, what you quote sounds about right for something like a 150.

G

Sorry but £15 per hour WET doesn't sound nearly enough to me.

A Cessna 150 might burn about 6 USG per hour, which is about 28 ish litres. Cheap avgas might cost 80p per litre so that's £22 before you start.

Sorry, no calculator, perf figures or fuel price guide with me but I would think this is in the right ball park. To this price you would want to add some money per hour so as to penalise those that fly the aircraft most to build up a maintainqnce fund), perhaps about £15 per hour.

It sounds like a typo to me, I would expect it to be £15 DRY, so expect to pay £37 wet, which is still a bargain! (in my group I pay about £130 per hour wet, but thats my fault for enjoying flying upside down!)

[ 04 February 2002: Message edited by: Sink Rate ]</p>

To add some more figures:

Our group (pfa two-seater) figures are: Share- £2500 (there are six in the group), monthly- £28 (covers insurance, hangarage, radio licence, paperwork etc.) Hourly- £9 per hour dry charged on airbourne time only. Each member buys their own Avgas and leaves the tank brim full after flying. Fuel burn is 18 litres per hour so you can work out the economics. The group is sufficiently well run for us to have been able to have the engine zero-timed last year !

With a well-run group your flying time is limited by the time you have available, not the cost.

Mine cost £1300 for 1/20th share,

£25 a month,

£35 an hour wet.

. .£15 an hour sounds too cheap and I smell a rat.

You may find out that before long you will have to dig into your pocket for a whip round to pay for unforeseen bills like engine refurbs where as our group is already saving for the next engine overhaul expected in 3-4 years time.

PPRuNe Towers, as a matter of interest, what was the reg of the planes you had shares in??

I have a share in G-BBKY. Anybody else who now flies professionally ever flown this aircraft?

. . <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> :) <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Currymonster,. .For comparison, a small US club.. .I have a 1/4 share in C172 ($7000) . .We charge ourselves $15.00 pr hour dry, and always leave the aircraft full of fuel, and clean.. .Hanger fees are $40.00 pr month.. .One owner snow bird's it to Texas for the winter, so the remaining 3 get plenty of winter flying, enjoying the very cold but very smooth air with increadable visability.(He still pays his hanger dues). .I must say 15 pounds an hour wet sounds far too cheap. 15 pounds an hour dry, would be more like the going rate. Last time I rented in the UK, it cost me over 100 pounds an hour for a C182.. .White Bear.

. .

. . <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

EGCC, the aircraft I had shares in over the years at Barton were:

G-AYGA G-BEZZ and G-AYEH all of which were Jodels.

Presently have a share in a strip based Aeronca Cheif , G-AKTK, down here at Towers South.

An amazing number of professional pilots have gained hours in your present steed :) :)

Rob Lloyd

If Barton shuts, can we stick our babe on your strip. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

My old man has a share in a 1973 C182 - 1/5th I think will get some costs if you're interested Currymonster...

(£15/hr wet is a bargain - the Hunter T.8 we have is around £800/hr - Urk! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> )

Aq

MUST be a dry rate.

What about oil? 50 hour check? engine fund. My Robin DR400/180 works out at £84/hr -mind you, you can do 150 statute miles in that hour! Seems high, yes , but we have NEVER had to dig into our back pockets for additional work required. I know many, many groups that have had to do that.

Fuel £50/hr; engine fund £10/hr; oil £5 hour; rest is contribution to checks.

So, beware!!

DOC. .<a href="http://www.gbrnu.co.uk" target="_blank">www.gbrnu.co.uk</a>

Thanks for the replies,. .Anyone have any figures that they have or are paying for an aircraft share then please let me know..

My share cost £3500, other charges are:. .£25 Monthly plus a Hourly Rate (Wet) of £24

These costs are barely covering our fixed overheads because we're not using the aircraft enough, but I am making great strides towards correcting this (oh, the sacrifice!) - if only the weather was better, our bank balance would be as well.

PFA Permit a/c, 4 People in Group. We each have the use of the a/c for a week at a time.

(edited for spelling)

[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: tacpot ]</p>

Currymonster, if you e-mail, i'll post you my contact number. :)

Just to give you a quick story,

14 months ago our engine packed up after clocking up 2800 hours.

It just so happens to be at the same time as an annual check.

Turns out that the engine crank case had a crack in it so that piece had to go. .to the USA for welding.

When we got it back, we received a bill for £18,400, £4,000 for the annual . .and £14,000 for the engine refurb.

The only thing missing was Dick Turpins mask.

Luckily we already had £14,000 in the engine fund so a wip round . .between 20 of us was no big deal.

So far the new engine has done about 600 hours and we've already. .saved £4000 towards the next one

Beware that the group may sound cheap but are they saving money to one side for. .expensive jobs????? <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

tacpot,

You would be as well trying to get 20 in your group, putting your hourly rate upto £30-£35 an hour and instead of each member having the plane for a week, have a proper booking diary system.

We have 1hour 30 min slots from 09:00, when the airfield opens, until last landings.

During the week Mon - Friday, we are aloud to book the plane all day if we wish and that counts as one booking. We can have 2 advanced week bookings, ie book it for all day Monday and Tues

At weekends, in summer we are able to book 2 slots together, ie 09:00 -12:00, or 10:30 - 13:30, or 12:00 - 15:00 and so on. During winter we reduce that down to 1 slot because of less daylight and some members in the group work 9-5 Mon - Fri and are only able to fly at weekends.

Cannot see the point of having a plane and not having it flying, bringing money into the group to pay for it self.

Even though the is 20 in our group, I manage to clock up the most hours in it last year 81 hours I think it was.

Sorry for any spelling errors <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: EGCC4284 ]

[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: EGCC4284 ]</p>

EGCC4284 - I guess we'll see how thing go over the summer. We were set into our particular method of operating by the original owner of the a/c, when he sold three share in it to create the group. I bought the owner out and I guess we haven't got around to thinking whether the way we operate it is the best way for us and the aircraft.

What sort of plane is it <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

EGCC4284

I think you've hit the nail on the head and my point entirely!! 2800 hours! On condition since 2000? What was the decision at 2800 to replace? Were you taking oil samples at 50 hours? Asking coz we're upto about 1600hours, so in a year or two we go 'on condition'.

Rgds. .DOC

DOC.400,

I turned up one Saturday morning to go flying . .and when I went to check the oil contents of the engine, I noticed that the oil filler cap was lose and the whole engine compartment was covered in oil.

Either the previous guy did not put the cap on properly or it vibrated lose which is a quite common occurrence I believe.

I got maintenance to have a look and they suggested that they wash the engine area . .and all down the side of the plane which was covered in oil.

Once that was done, I ran the engine so as to simulate I was flying,ie, full power for two to three minutes and then cruise power for ten minutes.

Engineers then inspected it again to reveal oil pissing out of the engine breather pipe, which suggested that the engine sump was building up pressure, possibly from piston rings being sh@<hidden>@<hidden>@<hidden>

Previous to this, we had a compression check done at every 50 hours, not so sure about the oil sampling.

We were quite pleased, first of all because this happened while the plane was on the ground, . .and, secondly, we had got 2800 hours out of it, 800 more than planned.

Half the battle with shared aircraft groups is if you've got somebody who is quite. .interested in the groups future to run it, and secondly if all the guys/girls in group. .respect other members and are pleasant to each other.

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

Happy landings.

"Half the battle with shared aircraft groups is if you've got somebody who is quite. .interested in the groups future to run it, and secondly if all the guys/girls in group. .respect other members and are pleasant to each other"

Absolutely EGCC. We're lucky in that respect. One chap who didn't fit in a few years ago was bought out and evicted from the group. We've now even incorporated a 'kick-out'/awkward b*gger' clause!!

Rgds. .DOC

On condition engines are not a good idea in the short term you may get some "free" engine hours but I,v seen no end of groups try to keep an old engine going and all that happens is they end up with newish cylinders on a run out bottom end.

Now i know that some cheapskate out there will tell me about his 2900 hour on condition engine but when this engine goes for OH you can bet that the crank and cam will be scrap and the cost of replacment of these items will far out strip the cost per hour of a OH engine.

Doc400 befor you go down this expencive road give me a call as there is far more to this than i have time to type here.

To return to the topic of this thread i cant see how you can run an aircraft for less than £30/hr in technical costs plus fuel , parking , insurance and all the other nif-naf and trivia that goes with aircraft.

[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: A and C ]</p>

Can I just add. I've got a share in a PFA aircraft. Its a very, very cheap aircraft, very basic. There are 6 shares, they cost under £1000 each. We pay £30 per month and no hourly rate. The £30 a month covers all hangarage, 50 hour checks (done ourselves, but covers parts), and the annual check. It also leaves a bit spare. I think in the last 3 years I have probably had to pay an extra £100 in total, for things like a new prop, engine work, etc. Usually the £30 per month also covers insurance, but it depends if anything nasty has happened to the plane during the year. We have someone allocated as "secretary of the group" in charge of admin/ finance/ sending letters out etc. and also someone allocated for maintenance/ keeping log books up to date, etc. Although they can rope in who they like!. .So. 3 points. . .1. You can find aircraft for £15 per hour wet. (Ours uses around £6 fuel per hour and that is all we pay for).. .2. If the group is well run it doesn't need to cost the earth.. .3. Always know what you are getting into. Check the aircraft isn't about to need a major overhaul. Check the group is well run, has a good booking system, etc.

Grandad as a PFA inspector i fully suport your efforts towards cheap flying , but most people dont want to get there hands dirty doing the maintenance and there are some who you would not let within 50ft of an aircraft with a spanner this is why i find that PFA aircraft have vastly diferent maintenance standards , mostly very good but once in a wile i find a real dog.

How meny hours do you and your group do a year ? How much fuel do you burn per hour ? and do you have an engine fund ?

I ask these questions because i am trying to get a true picture of your type of group memership.

I have seen a number of group set-ups and some are not co-opperative efforts but are time lease opperations that run using the monthly fees to cover all the costs and with some groups the costs to the owner go up once the aircraft flys because the selling point of the group is a low hourly rate that wont cover the maintenance passed 150hr/year ,these groups rely on the british weather and low aircraft usage to to make a profit for the owner.

Back to top <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

what is it about engines that brings out the witch doctor approach? The idea that an 'on condition' engine is some kind of hand grenade or bottomless hole in a bank account is complete garden fertiliser.

All engines are essentially 'on condition'. In other words if it fails the compression checks, losses oil pressure, burns an excessive amount etc etc you have to fix it. Amazingly that doesn't suddenly happen at 2001 hours. In the majority of lightly used aircraft it happens long before 1000 hours.

Regularly and considerately using an engine will allow it to easily exceed its recommended tbo. My Continental C90 (tbo 1800 hours) did 2600 hours with a single cylinder replacement. I sold it and within 120 hours the engine was a near write off - why? Because it no longer got a gentle warm through before flight, clean oil, slow temperature changes and cruising at 65%. Instead the ace jumped in took off, boosted about the 100 knot cruise and the amazing descent ability - and paid for it.

The other bits of this thread that the camshaft and crankshaft will be k****ered shows how little people know about 're-built' engines. Only the manufacturers zero time engines actualy have new internal components - all the others have the old components, carefully checked and inspected, sometimes refinished, but put back in-service. It is by no means unusual to find a 'zero-timed' engine with 3rd or 4th run crankcases, 2nd or 3rd run rotating parts. Remember the bearings are supposed to wear - not the rotating components. Camshafts - particularly on Lycomings rarely last beyond the 1st run, but that is just a symptom of the loads on them.

The secret to long engine life is use it often and considerately - the only problem from groups is there is usually a number of people who cannot or will not.

Half truths once more ........the reason that going much passed the TBO on an engine is not a good idea is that the crankshaft wears below the overhaul limit (normaly in ovality) because the clearance between the bearing shells and the crank has worn to large.

As for cams warming of the oil befor running at high RPM is critical to long life as once they start to break up the steel particals from the cam become embedded in the pistons and so it is a race between the cam and the compression to see which drags the engine to the hanger because of low power first.

but of course what is the point of putting new cylinders on a high time engine as the chances of getting your moneys woth are remote.

As i posted above some one will all ways have an engine that has run for hundreds of hours over the TBO but across the fleet of engines you will find that going over TBO by more than 15 to 20% is expencive in the long run ,only you can decide if it is worth the financhal and saftey risk.

A and C, in answer to your queries.. .I understand that some people can't be bothered with maintaining their own aircraft, personally I have no problem with doing relatively easy stuff. Once I have been shown how to do it, that is fine. But then our aircraft is not too difficult to work on. Stuff like 50 hour checks are OK. We also encourage group members to come and "help" which usually involves them getting their hands dirty and finding out how to do things. Generally people are very keen at the beginning and this is the time to do this!

We are lucky to have engineers, PFA inspectors, etc. to ask for advice if we need it. Our regular "annual" inspector knows our work now and is happy with how we maintain our aircraft, which is good.

As for the other questions, we do not have an engine fund, we do build up a small surplus in the bank each year which has so far covered general work, but our engine is not that old and so at present the current members would prefer not to build up an engine fund.

The hours it flys vary alot. At present it is not doing that many hours, low hundreds, but it has in the past been flown very regularly. It uses around 2 gallons of fuel per hour, depending on how economically it is flown.