IFR EFB options post iPad

[Old Akro]

I'm interested in the opinion of IFR pilots who have experience with EFB's.

Seeing how good my wife's Kindle is; plus a review of the Solid FX8 started me down the track of looking at all again. Then I got more serious when Jepp released the iPad app. A mate bought a tablet PC which has moving map, which is very impressive (especially during IFR approaches), but it requires a stylus which can be cumbersome in flight and I'm sure the page zooming & page changing is more clunky than iPad will be.

There was a good post about EFB's a while ago, but it was pre-iPad and possibly before the multi touch screen mini notebook class of devices became readily available.

It seems to me that there are currently 3 options, but each has its own weaknesses:

1. Ipad. You know it’s going to be good, but really a bit bigger than you’d prefer, can’t print and doesn’t have moving map capability and doesn’t currently have neat mounting hardware. Reviews suggest that its pretty awkward to mount anywhere in the cockpit. When I travel, I’ll still need a laptop to do & print flight plans (I use Command Flight Planner), print unforeseen charts, etc.

2. Solid FX8. Looks like a really neat thing, but it’s going to be AUD$1500 landed, probably with 10% GST added by customs. It’s not a backlit screen which may or may not be a night issue. It will accept an external GPS , it will print but it won’t run any other programmes (eg email, internet for weather). So, it looks like I'll still need a laptop as well.

3. Tablet PC like the Asus eePC ASUS eee PC T101MT Black Tablet Netbook Intel Atom N450 1.66GHz with Win 7 Home Pre (http://www.asusnotebook.com.au/2188_ASUS-eee-PC-T101MT-Black-Tablet-Netbook-Intel-Atom-N450-166GHz-with-Win.php) Its $850. It will run other stuff, print, is a nice size, but the multi-touch screen gets some negative comments and you know it’s going to be nowhere as near as good as the iPad. Might escape me from taking a laptop on trips. Requires an external USB internet stick, so it’s going to be more cumbersome for weather, email etc. than the ipad. And I'm not fully convinced that the screen resolution will be good enough to fly approaches directly off the screen, but should be small enough to yoke mount (unlike iPad). On paper its got more than enough battery life for a day's flying.

My image is that I'll print charts for my commonly used approaches and keep them in a 1 inch jepp binder plus print charts for a flight (Jepp view seems to assemble charts required for a trip so they can be printed quite well). The EFB would be then used for enroute tracking (moving map) and a backup for unplanned diversions. Since it will have the airport directory, etc in it I figure that having something that is nearly instant on is important for looking up re-fuelers numbers, AWIS numbers, etc.

I'd be interested in the comments form those with flight experience with these things.

[empacher48]

With the ipad, you may want to wait there are rumours floating of a 7" screen Ipad to be released.. Also anything the ipad can do, the iphone can do on a 3" screen.. The ipod touch can do everything except GPS on the same size screen as the iphone..

Anyway, don't forget you're not supposed to buy the "A" model of anything, So the second Gen ipads will be improved upon quicker than any of the windows based tablets..

Something running Andriod on the other hand would be nice!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I have JeppView and FliteDeck with moving map and georeferenced Appr plates etc running on a Motion Computing LS800 tablet computer. Great bit of gear! Solid state HD will operate well in the Flightlevels. Daylight screen is easily viewable in sunlight.

Can also run WAC's on Fugawi, Champagne Flight Planner, W&B program, NAIPS, Weatherzone etc with USB G3 dongle thingie. Good for inflite PpruNing and Skyping!

http://www.fototime.com/52BDACDB7BD47B8/standard.jpg

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

Yeah, I got one of them too! And its a real PC for printing or other features away from the plane.

Anybody recognise the good looking bloke on the left of that pic? ;)

[LeadSled]

Folks,
If you are going to fly IFR, check out the regs. very carefully ---- the approvals for an EFB are quite complex and demanding. Notwithstanding you can buy some great over the counter systems in the US, that are advertised as EFBs at quite cheap prices.

The EFBs used by some airlines are seriously expensive.

Even for VFR, it is not really clear, in a regulatory sense, that using WACs or Jepps. loaded on a PC or similar satisfies the need for charts. Don't bother asking CASA, you will get as many answers as the people you ask the question.

Given the sate of our regs., a cockpit ( sorry, flight station, cockpit is sexist) isn't going to be a paperless office any time soon.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Obviously, but I will say it anyway, the above comments do not refer to Garmin or similar TSO gear that you load up with the monthly Jepp. ARAC amendment.

[Biggles78]

Anybody recognise the good looking bloke on the left of that pic?
According to the name on his headset, it is Dave Clarke. :hmm:

[Capn Bloggs]

Anybody recognise the good looking bloke on the left of that pic?
I was going to say "no, but he's obviously pretty old" but then I read:

According to the name on his headset, it is Dave Clarke.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/roflmao.gif

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Mate of mine was looking at this when they were speccing up a Hawker850.

AC120-76A (http://www.navaero.com/efb/downloads/AC120-76A.pdf) is the advisory circular that gives all the info required. Special note on section 9 Risk Mitigation for EFB systems.

[Capn Bloggs]

Re
Special note on section 9 Risk Mitigation for EFB systems.

(4) Paper products carried by selected crewmembers;
That'll be the FO. :E

[Jabawocky]

Paper back up is a no brainer IMHO.

[Dj Dave]

You look a bit low on profile, there, DR

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

You look a bit low on profile, there, DR


Its NOT Moi!

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

HE is quick to point that out now isn't he! :}

We were, dodging a rain shower and well.........the photo would not have been as effective had the slope been higher either:ok:

J:suspect:

[BurntheBlue]

Your pretty chocka on extras there, don't find it a little cumbersome?
"No no the Tablet supplements the steam-driven dials which backs up the hand-held which is only there incase the 430 fails..."

[Jabawocky]

hahaha :}:}:}:}

You know the DR?

[Lasiorhinus]

You still haven't got the DME fixed??

[BurntheBlue]

Never met the Dr, just calling on my over active imagination.

...bit of a pseudo-quote there... :ok:

[Old Akro]

This is the new stuff I've learned:

Hard drives aren't rated above 10,000ft. They rely on an airgap between the platter and read arm which is generated by the spinning platter. Without that the arm touches the platter and its all over. So given that aircraft can be bumpy and Australia has density altitudes above ISA, I think it rules out HDD devices.

I also found a nice review from a girl who bought an IPad to do graphic arts. She ditched it in favour of a Motion LS800 tablet because casual touches of her palm on the ipad were screwing up her artwork. In the cockpit I think that means the iPad has a danger off changing map size, location or page in flight. So, overall, I think the iPad fails too.

This is leaving something like the Asus T91MT tablet (which has an SSD) or something like FTDK's Motion tablet. Either of these would allow me to leave my laptop at home for 2-3 day trips and use the tablet for email / limited report writing / flight planning / etc.

Dealing with an earlier post about legality, I'd say first of all that more and more I am becoming convinced that CASA is not taking safety (or at least GA safety) as a prime concern. I think I'd rather do what is safe (potentially guided by the FAA who seem a reasonably sorted about EFB's) than worry about what CASA might or might not do after it confers with lawyers and non flying bureaucrats.

But, its my intention to keep paper charts as my primary IFR reference. Its one of the reason's I'd like the EFB to be able to print to my portable, bluetooth HP 470b printer. I understand that the Jeppview software has a feature where you can identify commonly used airports and it will flag when the charts change and you need to print new copies. I envisage that I'll flick my 2 x 2 inch Jepp binders and keep the 1 inch binder as a trip folder and for my most commonly used airports and IFR charts.

I've finally cancelled my ERSA subscription, because while the Jepp airport directory is less sexy, its finally dawned on me that it contains no less information than ERSA. So, now I'll need to either learn to deal with it all off the tablet or re-instate ERSA. FDTK, what stuff do you carry now that you use the tablet?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

FDTK, what stuff do you carry now that you use the tablet?


Well, it wouldn't be me if I didn't have some redundancy.

I rarely fly other than on an IFR plan.

I subscribe to paper Jepps as well as JeppView and FliteDeck. I haven't bothered with ERSA for a few years now - you can look it up on the internet anyway - and yes, I can usually do that in flight if needed.

I split my Jepp plates into Qld, NSW, Vic and Tas in a 1 x 2" binder and NT, SA and WA in another 1 x 2" binder. I only carry the latter if headed that way. I have all of my commonly used charts in 1 x 1" binder - which I carry up front in the pocket in front of the pilot/front pax seats.

The Jepp binders are in the flightbag on the floor behind the front pax seat - 90% of my flying is solo or one pax. Otherwise it is down the back - where a back seat pax can reach it if needed.

I carry all of the Oz WACs in a bag in the luggage compartment and only carry paper VTC and VNC on the rare occassions that I need them.

Don't know why I carry them - Can't remember the last time I looked at a paper WAC.

I have all of the Oz WACs, ERC, TAC, VTC, VNC in the tablet.

I normally fly approaches with the chart up in FliteDeck on the tablet - but usually have the paper plate handy if the appr looks like being serious.

I have two LS800 tablets - but no, I don't carry both with me. The older one has a standard HD. I have had it to 18,000' with no problems. The newer tablet has a solid state HD - and that is the one that I use all the time now.

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

Agreed Akro. I am pretty sure I have a HDD in mine, easy to change if it goes U/S but I am a bit more gentle with things than the DR.

I keep Jepps in full, and asmall printer. Really not a problem and with in flight Next g coverage you get weather and all the usual services......even pprune, but I am not really up for that yet.:)

[Jack Ranga]

I normally fly approaches with the chart up in FliteDeck on the tablet - but usually have the paper plate handy if the appr looks like being serious.

Doctor,

Have you got a moving map display overlaid (i.e. is there a little aeroplane that follows your actual track overlaid on the chart) on the chart/approach you are flying on any of the gizmos you are running?

Ta.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Jack

In Jeppesen FliteDeck, enroute charts, approaches and aerodrome charts are georeferenced, so that if you have a GPS connected to the tablet you get the little green aeroplane moving over the map. SIDs, STARS DME/GPS arrivals are not georeferenced.

Dr :8

[LeadSled]

Old Akro,

Check with your insurance company as well, it is not just CASA on your back about legalities.

"Proving" that unapproved equipment didn't contribute to a claim, can be very difficult, in some policies, the very presence of unapproved equipment can invalidate a policy. ---- as our well known atheist PM ( not meant as any criticism of the PM) has said:

"The devil is in the detail "

Tootle pip!!

[Jack Ranga]

SIDs, STARS DME/GPS arrivals are not georeferenced

Sorry Doc, just to confirm, the rest of the approaches are? i.e. RNAV, NDB, VOR etc

Ta.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Sorry Doc, just to confirm, the rest of the approaches are? i.e. RNAV, NDB, VOR etc

Yes, all of the approach plates (NDB, VOR, ILS, RNAV) are georeferenced in FliteDeck.

I will see if I can find a pic of an approach - including the little green aeroplane.

Dr :8

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Ranga,

Yes - all of the rest of the charts are geo-referenced - wonderful for situational awareness on RNAV approaches and procedural turns. I now have a similar setup to the Dr & Jabba and always carry paper copies of:

- all charts (computer can't do the Jepp ones anyway)
- all plates for anywhere within about 100NM of home
- all plates for the trip at hand including anything I could even contemplate as an alternate (legally required or not).

To Leady,

Understand your concerns butJabba, Dr & I don't rely on the computer as our copy of the documents required to be carried in flight - it's an aid only and we have paper copies of everthing which is what we (well I) 'legally' navigate by. Like the permananent Notam about navigating by Aids over GPS when the 2 disagree (don't understand why though**), paper copies, aids and TSO'd GPS always win over the computer.

UTR

*** Thread-drift but flying the HB-DPO track at 8000' with reference to the VOR will cause you to bust Launy airspace as the DPO VOR gets 'bent' at longer ranges.

[Jabawocky]

UTR......thats why you should have 7 GPS's....less chance of bent radials :ok::}

[Capn Bloggs]

flying the HB-DPO track at 8000' with reference to the VOR will cause you to bust Launy airspace as the DPO VOR gets 'bent' at longer ranges.
That'd make for an interesting investigation...

[Ixixly]

Ok, so lets say I went out and bought a fairly decent PC Tablet with a USB slot, I put on a piece of software say Jeppeson Flitedeck and also bought myself a smallish Garmin 18 GPS Receive to plug into the USB slot along with some kind of internet connection (Probably something along the lines of a telstra wireless broadband device).

Basically I would now have a Tablet PC capable of doing W&B, Flight Planning, Flight Notification including the ability to submit a Flight Plan, a Moving Map with all the up-to-date Airspace, Danger Areas, Restricted Areas and all the airfields/strips that would usually be found on your WACs, TACs and ERCs etc...etc... and then approach plates as well. Would this be correct?

And wouldn't this seem like something someone is going to look at me and think "God what a tosser, why doesn't he just do it like everyone else?" forgetting they are also using Command Flight Planner and such for this sort of thing anywho!!

[Jack Ranga]

Doc, UTR Thanks :ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Basically I would now have a Tablet PC capable of doing W&B, Flight Planning, Flight Notification including the ability to submit a Flight Plan, a Moving Map with all the up-to-date Airspace, Danger Areas, Restricted Areas and all the airfields/strips that would usually be found on your WACs, TACs and ERCs etc...etc... and then approach plates as well. Would this be correct?


You forgot inflight BOM/Weatherzone, Prooning, Skyping, email and porn! :E


And wouldn't this seem like something someone is going to look at me and think "God what a tosser, why doesn't he just do it like everyone else?" forgetting they are also using Command Flight Planner and such for this sort of thing anywho!!


Yup! :ok:

Dr :8

[Ixixly]

Porn, excellent point Dr, just need to make sure i'm flying freight now!! :}

[Jabawocky]

No.....you need the freight I saw in that BN2 v C208 thread......Now that was freight! :ok:

[Mr. Hat]

I just wish it would hurry up and happen.

I'm tired of lugging around all the paperwork and doing all the amendments. Its 2010 lets move on from trillions of pages wasted per annum.

[Ixixly]

Jabawocky, if I had that sorta freight I probably wouldn't need the porn!!!!

Just out of interest, and to add another dimension to this all, has anyone tried to install any programs mentioned here like Jepps Flitedeck or Command Flight Planner onto any device that uses Windows Mobile OS?

I'm looking at getting a new mobile so theres always the thought of getting something like the Asus P835 which runs Windows Mobile 6.1 Professional so it'll be capable of making all the calls I want, have the internet connectivity already and the gps inbuilt, saving having to get all three of those things seperately!!

EDIT

I'm also looking at the Asus EEEPC T101MT, anyone have any experience with them? Also someone mentioned there possibly being a EEEPC with GPS built in?

OH and if you had a mobile that had GPS built in, could that simply be plugged in and used in conjunction with the software like Flitedeck for moving map capability?

[Jabawocky]

I'm tired of lugging around all the paperwork and doing all the amendments. Its 2010 lets move on from trillions of pages wasted per annum.yeah......and have you seen the brain numbing batch that arrived today in the mail. :ouch:

Never tried windows mobile, but I doubt it.

[Old Akro]

I thought I had a bit of a belt & braces tendency, but based on the gear that FTDK & Jaba fly with, they have belts, braces, pin their ties to the pants plus wear garters, arm bands, and carry safety pins in one shirt breast pocket and a sewing kit in the other.

A week or so ago I bought a laptop format Asus Eee PC for one of my guys to carry in a car. I was using it today and its screen is very impressive. Basically, unless you get direct sunlight reflection, you can read the screen in sunlight. I was commenting to this guy that its battery had done well because we were using both it and my high end business grade HP laptop. When I finished my laptop said it had about 1.5 hours left and the Eee PC 2.5 hours. I was impressed until he told me that he hadn't charged it for 2 days and he had used it for an hour or more each day.

The T101MT has a conventional spinning platter HDD and a 10.1 inch screen. The T91MT has a 32Gb solid state drive and a 8.9 inch screen. The T91MT has a similar size screen to the Motion LS800. You can get both on ebay.

The Asus reviews question the durability of the swivel hinge for the screen and there was some early issues with the touch sensitivity varying across the screen, but it seems to get rave reviews.

At the moment, I think iPad fails due to its size and inability to print and Solid FX fails due to price & inability to do other computing. So, I think its a toss up between the 2 - 3 year old LS800 or a new Asus Eee PC. The Eee PC is newer, the LS800 is the real deal and robust and may have better screen response and may be more readable in sunlight. It also has hot swappable batteries and on paper about the same battery life as the Asus.

Anyone got a coin?

FTDK - do I take it you are paying 2 Jepp subscriptions; paper & digital? I was planning on converting the paper subscription to digital and printing a combination of trip plates & commonly used plates.

[Jabawocky]

Netbooks like the asus are great, just the tablet can be mounted easily, I have the LS800 and my a/c partner who being off the 744 thought only those poofy airbus folk had PC's :E has just gone down the road of a miniHP or Asus, mainly so its more laptop like when they are away or at their holiday house.

Either way its all about how you set up the "workstation" or cockpit as it was once called!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

the LS800 is the real deal and robust and may have better screen response and may be more readable in sunlight

And is no longer available - unfortunately!

Dr :8

PS: Yes, I do have paper and electronic Jepp subscriptions.

[Jabawocky]

greetings from 11miles west of ywck at A080:8

[Old Akro]

I should note that I am focusing on Asus because they pioneered this mini PC segment and get good reviews. I like HP and exclusively use HP for my company's server, dektops, laptops & printers. But the mini HP PC battery life is nowhere near as good as the Asus which is why I bought one for field use. Its so good, that I'm frankly wondering if I should get another one and ditch the laptop.

In terms of mini PC's and touch screens it seems to be only Asus & IBM, but the IBM has worse battery life and I've read reviews that say the screen has issues.

Asus (and I suspect the whole class of mini PC) use LED lit LCD screens. I don't fully get it, but I think they basically use low powered LCD screens with LED backlighting to make them readable. The crispness & brightness of the screen is quite impressive and works in daylight dramatically better than my HP laptop. This screen technology is part of the reason they get good battery life.

Conventional laptops use TFT LCD screens. The Motion tablets with the view anywhere screens is a special class of TFT screen that uses special alignment of crystals (and possibly aromatherapy?) to make a screen with a broader angle of view. Motion add some sort of proprietary covering layer that they say is a military based thing. This covering is also supposed to improve the writing feel of the touch surface. I haven't had the opportunity (yet) to compare the Asus mini PC screen with a Motion, but I take it as read the the benchmark is the Motion screen.

The Asus (and this class of mini PC) use an Intel Atom CPU vs the standard Intel core whatever. I found some speed benchmarks and the CPU in my laptop should be an order of magnitude faster than the mini Asus PC, but that is not the user experience. The Mini PC is fast to use. It runs Windows 7, but it may be "tailored"to the PC so it runs less stuff, hence explaining the speed. If I read this benchmarking site correctly, the Atom CPU in the Asus should be marginally faster than the Motion LS800.

[Old Akro]

More stuff I have learned...

The Asus T91MT does NOT have a removable or user replaceable battery. Its a smaller shorter life battery than the T101MT which is replaceable.

Unlike the seashell EeePC I was looking at, the Asus tablet PC's have gloss screens, so reflections will be a bigger issue.

The T101MT has a common 2.5 inch drive, so changing to a SSD should be relatively cheap & easy.

Neither have digitisers, so you can only use the touch screen to point & draw - not write.