View Full Version : find the liar


RuFer
16th Aug 2010, 19:58
Hi everyone,

This is my first post and would like to thank everyone who has posted is his/hers knowledge and experience in different threats. You guys have already answered lots of questions. But here I've some more which I've failed to find over the forum or I'm still confused with.

Going to US next november to start my training......

Can I fly a US registered aircraft in US airspace with a JAA license? Do I need to convert my license to FAA in case I want to do some hour building after the PPL course? The reason why I'm asking this is because I've got 2 different informations from 2 different schools. One of them is telling me that I will have to get an FAA license (apart from the JAA) if I would like to build time right after my PPL, the other is telling me that it's not necessary....

who is lying???



slav4o1
16th Aug 2010, 20:47
You need a FAA conversion - as far as remember it only involves paperwork and you get the "card" licence.

Whirlygig
16th Aug 2010, 20:54
You can get an FAA licence on the basis of your JAA licence. This is the paperwork only licence as mentioned above. However, you can only fly aircraft for which you are rated on your JAA licence.

If you wish to fly an aircraft for which you have no JAA rating, then you need a full FAA licence which would involve exams and some flight training.

Cheers

Whirls

BigGrecian
16th Aug 2010, 21:06
No one is lying in this situation and you need to understand what each licence entails.

To go solo in US airspace in an N registered aircraft you will need an FAA medical, which during your training also has attached an FAA student pilot certificate. You will need to get one to complete training for any type of private training in the USA, regardless of whether FAA or JAA PPL.

This FAA student pilot certificate is NOT intended for hour building post a JAA PPL. It is intended for you to train towards your PPL, and is used by the JAA flight schools so you can go solo in US airspace, in an N registered aircraft.

I don't know of any school which will let students hour build on a student pilot certificate, because it is extremely limited as you would have to get an instructor to authorise every flight individually, as you are effectivly still a PPL student, and it is not what the student pilot certificate is intended for. I would love to see the outcome of an investigation if you had an accident and they found out you were "hour building" on a student pilot certificate - I am sure it would not be favourable.

If the school was doing things properly they would make you do an FAA PPL as well, or complete the licence verification process, but if you took a JAA PPL it takes the UK CAA 10 days to issue your licence and about 4-6 weeks for the FAA to complete the verification so about 6-8 weeks of paperwork.

B2N2
17th Aug 2010, 03:47
I don't know of any school which will let students hour build on a student pilot certificate, because it is extremely limited as you would have to get an instructor to authorize every flight individually, as you are effectively still a PPL student, and it is not what the student pilot certificate is intended for. I would love to see the outcome of an investigation if you had an accident and they found out you were "hour building" on a student pilot certificate - I am sure it would not be favorable

True, but I am not aware of any FAA regulation excluding time building on a student pilot certificate.
There is no limitation on how many solo flights you can do on a student pilot certificate.
I have heard of one school, can't remember which state that would do FAA PPL/IR and CPL on a student pilot certificate with three check rides at the end.
The FAA FSDO that had jurisdiction approved.

heli7
17th Aug 2010, 09:58
FAA FAR AIM 61.75 it will answer your question.

B2N2
17th Aug 2010, 12:14
No it doesn't.
61.75 deals with a certificate based on a foreign license.

The FAA regulations that deal with solo flight and solo limitations are:

61.87(n)
61.89
61.93(a)-(e)(12)


Electronic Code of Federal Regulations: (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=3afeba41c16d92548a6a3ebc956624d7&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.3.1.4)

But again I don't see the point of time building on a student pilot certificate.
After you pass the JAA PPL skill test you might as well take the FAA PPL Check ride. It does require one additional written test which should not be an issue.

heli7
17th Aug 2010, 13:32
"No it doesn't.
61.75 deals with a certificate based on a foreign license.

The FAA regulations that deal with solo flight and solo limitations are:
61.87(n)
61.89
61.93(a)-(e)(12)"

ABOVE IS A STUDENT CERTIFICATE!!
NOT A FOREIGN BASED FAA PPL CERT 61.75

punk666
17th Aug 2010, 15:47
If I remember right you do not have to have a FAA medical to fly N registered aircraft if the license is based on your JAA one.

Your FAA license is based on your JAA one, and for that to be valid you need a JAA medical. So if you JAA medical is valid then the other license should be valid.

Im waiting to be corrected on this.

To make life easier just get an FAA medical for $80 bucks

B2N2
18th Aug 2010, 01:23
Heli7, take a chill-pill.
ABOVE IS A STUDENT CERTIFICATE!!
NOT A FOREIGN BASED FAA PPL CERT 61.75
No need to shout, shouting is not polite, even on a internet forum.

To the original poster Rufer;

Once you pass the skill test with a JAA examiner you do not hold a JAA PPL. You will only hold a JAA PPL after it has been issued by the UK CAA.

if you took a JAA PPL it takes the UK CAA 10 days to issue your licence and about 4-6 weeks for the FAA to complete the verification so about 6-8 weeks of paperwork.

Up to that point you are a holder of a FAA student pilot certificate which gives you all the privileges and limitations of a student pilot.
These privileges and limitations are listed here;



The FAA regulations that deal with solo flight and solo limitations are:

* 61.87(n)
* 61.89
* 61.93(a)-(e)(12)


Electronic Code of Federal Regulations: (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=a9b8e8042f31097702b9b0b2c877eec1&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14)



There are not a secret, read them and know what you can and cannot do.

Socal, normally I agree with you but in this case I don't.
The regulation reads:



61.65 Instrument rating requirements.
top

(a) General. A person who applies for an instrument rating must:

(1) Hold at least a private pilot certificate with an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift rating appropriate to the instrument rating sought

Which means it's perfectly legal to start your instrument training before you hold a PPL. You must be the holder of at least a PPL when you file the application for the Instrument rating. So under Part 61 it is perfectly legal to do your Instrument rating check ride the day after you do your PPL check ride. I signed off a student to do exactly that.
In his case he started flying at 15, I soloed him on his 16th birthday, trained him for his IFR while he was flying the required 50 hrs XC solo on endorsements. Took the PPL check ride on his 17th birthday and his Instrument the next day.
A very rare case but this individual had my complete faith and trust.
A very exceptional kid.

But I digress, back to the original topic.
The JAA skill test has no value whatsoever under FAA rules.
So you are not a PPL holder trying to fly on a student pilot certificate.
You are a student pilot flying on a student pilot certificate which is legal.
You just need to find a flight instructor willing to sign you off for every single cross country flight. And no you don not need cross country instruction to every airport that you want to visit.That is not what it says in 61.93.Now if they don't give you an endorsement and just send you on your way, both you and your flight instructor are in violation. As a student pilot you are required to know the regulations and therefore required to know that you need endorsements.
It is rare but the FAA has revoked student pilots certificates in the past.
Usually for stupid stuff like taking passengers and buzzing your girlfriend's house.

So by the sound of it one school will allow this and another will not.
Fair enough, no comments there.

By the way, under Part 141 you are required to hold a PPL before you can enroll (= start) in an Instrument course of training.
But under Part 141 Subpart K you can get a combined PPL/IR course approved such as Delta Connection Academy offers in their Zero-Hero program.
Any more questions........grrhhhhhh (hissing sound)

http://amberface.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/angry-cat.jpg

'I' in the sky
18th Aug 2010, 17:29
Seems some poeple are possibly missing the point here.

On completion of the JAA PPL, the licence takes a while to be issued so you have no licence to convert so if RuFer wants to start hours building straight away he can't do it on the basis of his validated as yet non-existant foreign licence. So the next best albeit not ideal thing is to continue to fly as an FAA student pilot as he will have a medical/student pilot ciertifcate.

However as stated previously any cross country flights he does will need to be authorised by an FAA instructor. Now unless things have changed recently, when training for a JAA PPL , solo flights still have to be authorised by an FAA instrctor so he/she would be the best person to continue to authorise further flights.

Now here's where to be careful. Watch for the guy who tells you during your JAA PPL training "We are training for a european licence, the FAA have no jurisdiction over what we do". This may include sending you on solos without the proper "authorised" sign-offs, sending you flying in aircraft that have exceeded their 100 hour inspection because you can use the 10 hour extension. Then I believe you will have found the real liar and he is out there.

B2N2
18th Aug 2010, 20:58
Thank you "I" in the sky, good post :ok:
The FAA has everything to do with JAA training in the US.


You fly in a US registered airplane
You are trained by a US certificated Instructor
You fly in US airspace
You solo on a FAA student pilot certificate and medical
You require FAA instructor endorsements for solo flights including cross countries.


You cannot be trained for the PPL by a JAA instructor only, the instructor needs to hold both JAA and FAA instructor ratings or FAA only if they work under the supervision of a JAA Chief Flight Instructor and have been standardized.
You cannot be Pilot In Command yet since you don't know how to fly an airplane. The instructor is Pilot In Command and since it is a US registered airplane your Instructor needs to be US (FAA) certificated.

'I' in the sky
12th Nov 2010, 15:21
RuFeR,
Just wondering, did you ever find your liar ?