Multi Crew Pilot License(MPL) thoughts.....?

[d.shaw15]

Im interested in peoples thoughts on the MPL. I understand that it allows pilots to have less overall flight experience and PIC hours.

But at the same time from the get go you are taught to fly the way you will fly as an airline pilot which in my opinion is much more uselfull and relevant than VFR and dead reckoning nav which no one uses once they hit the airlines anyway.

This may be an insult or even seem unfair for those guys and gals who had to get their 3000 hrs in the far reaches of the outback flying charter and mail runs but it is the way the industry is moving.

Im only a student and i may be blinded by the prospects of it being a faster track to the airlines but for mine it makes perfect and logical sense to conduct training in this manor, what is the point in learning to fly one way then abandoning it only to learn to fly another. Why not just begin with the later.....?

I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this....
Especially, if there are any out there, some airline hr and recruitment persons.

[Sqwark2000]

An MPL crew member will occupy the spare seat on the flightdeck. Don't expect any command opportunites without the full whack licence and experience....

Airlines will love it because of the low-cost employee product it provides.

Shortcut to nowhere.....

S2K

[SgtBundy]

In that case, what skills will you use to bring back a 300+ seat aircraft when the MFD displays go out and you are left with a compass, an altimeter, an ASI and a watch?

[j3pipercub]

It's not an insult, but you have no idea what you are talking about, seriously.

You are extroadinarily naïve and ill-informed if you think GA flying does not prepare you for airline flying, and I'm not simply talking manipulative skills.

But hey, the Jetstar Cadetship is probably for you.

I do really like how in one sentence you tell us all what direction the industry is moving, in the next, tell us you're only a student and then, ask to hear from Airline HR/Recruitment. If you know what direction the industry is going, why not go out and pay for that shiny jet and peak cap NOW! I can sell you some 4 bar eppaulettes, only slightly drooled on, I wear them and stare at myself in the mirror a lot you see.

j3

[LeadSled]

d.shaw15,

There is a lot of information about the reasons behind the ICAO MPL, and how it came into being.

None of it has anything to do with "being fair" to somebody who has put up a few hours in the boonies.

There is also a lot of rubbish written about the MPL, by the usual "head in the sand" brigade.

Whether Australian domestic pilots agree or not ( and, it seems, most of them don't) the major source of pilots for most European and many Asian airlines, since the late 1950's, has been airline sponsored cadet pilot schemes of one form or another.

One thing common to almost all is that a pilot, with something around 250 hours total, will be in the RHS of an airline aircraft.

Now, with some fifty years (50!!) of experience in this kind of airline pilot training, how can anybody reasonably say it "doesn't work, not safe", with tens of thousands of pilots who can testify to the contrary.

In brief, the MPL only does two things:

(1) Allows national authorities to issue a co-pilot license that is ICAO compliant, leads to an ALTP by whatever name, and all without having to have a web of variations filed against Annex 1, and:
(2) Allow a flexible mix of aircraft and simulator time to produce a better training program.

Before any of you start shouting about cost, and "cheap" simulators, the advanced Level 5 or equivalent Flight Simulators all cost far more to operate than the usual light singles and twins used in flight training.

The "cheapest" MPL would be to do 100% flight time, but that, demonstrably, does not produce the best result --- from the sponsoring airline's viewpoint.

Importantly, the standards that must be achieved by any pilot, before they are checked to the line, remain the same for any pilot, regardless of prior training background.

Don't anybody forget that the reasons for airline cadet schemes over the years has overwhelmingly been the lack of other suitable candidates for airline recruitment. It could be a country with no GA sector to hire from, steadily declining numbers of military trained pilots available , or a GA sector that does no produce a suitably trained pilot.

Tootle pip!!

PS: J3Cub,
Many Australia GA pilots are demonstrably very ill-prepared for the transition to an airline environment, and teaching "an old dog new tricks" can be a very difficult and not necessarily successful exercise.

[43Inches]

But at the same time from the get go you are taught to fly the way you will fly as an airline pilot which in my opinion is much more uselfull and relevant than VFR and dead reckoning nav which no one uses once they hit the airlines anyway.


Maybe you should enlighten us airline pilots on how you fly an airliner differently to any other aeroplane?

The only difference to basic training is that the aircraft is mostly operated under the IFR, however this does not mean its only flown on instrument or navigated by radio aids and RNAV.

You may still be forced to DR or visually position fix under the IFR, the priciple is exactly the same as VFR. Have flown DR Nav a few times in aircraft without RNAV/GPS on long sectors between navaids.

If you want you can make callouts, fly profiles and all the airline SOPs during normal training, no need for an MPL for that.

What the MPL does give you is a nice collar leashed to your airline with limited chance of mobility from your chosen master.

I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this....
Especially, if there are any out there, some airline hr and recruitment persons.

Most HR people are not pilots and therefor have little knowledge of what goes on in the flight deck. They just hire on the basis of numbers (logbook experience) and predetermined questions.

[LeadSled]

What the MPL does give you is a nice collar leashed to your airline with limited chance of mobility from your chosen master.

43Inches,

Whilst that is fundamentally true, there is nothing preventing an MPL holder from doing any differences training to get a CPL, provided they/somebody pay(s), for what will probably be a straightforward exercise.

There is already an example of this in Scandinavia, where, due the GFC, an airline retrenched a number of pilots including their first course of MPL holders. Such was the standard of the MPL holders, that another airline footed to bill to convert several of them to normal CPL holder F/Os, and gave them a job.

Tootle pip!!

[43Inches]

Leadsled,

Not against properly trained cadets at all, but the MPL is leaning towards training an applicant specifically for an operation. Whilst some organisations may have high standards and additional training others may not, it will very much depend on the operators standards and oversight from the local regulator.

What I have found is that companies that have a operator driven cadet program can be so different to the normal training facilities that the governing bodies don't have a benchmark for the standard so let them self regulate. They could ride in the back during tests but they don't know the operators standards and SOPs well enough to judge standards. At least if students have to pass the applicable standards for governed licence issue including solo time there is less possibility to circumvent the standard.

[Wally Mk2]

No doubt this (MPL & cadet-ship) will be the way of the future but I hope not too soon:-(
Such topics as the one here always seen to gravitate back to that magical word, that magical state of mind...........experience! You simply can't buy or rush experience. Australia's aviation (as well as all other countries obviously) industry was/is built on tru grit experience as is the whole aviation industry sector such as engineering etc. Whether the MPL & cadet-ship is or will be the answer only time will tell but there's one thing for sure flying training/experience the way we know it is slowly becoming a thing of the past sadly.
It's not that difficult to fly a 'bus' (as long as it's going all okay) & I guess previous tru grit experience is used very little in that day to day boring routine flying stuff....BUT like everything in life we have insurance for just about every single possible eventuality, except the PILOT up front. (talking about Capt) How do you 'insure' him to get you down safe when the spam hits the fan? You can't but you can technically with one single safety insurance barrier..........EXPERIENCE! There's no substitute for it:ok:

Just to prove a point about experience & this is not dick waving but an Eg of how previous experience gained the hard/traditional way could in a million to one chance(that's too many when yr airborne!) save the day. A friend of mine & myself (both experienced drivers) where stooging along in a 'Bus' Sim recently at around 500 ft sth of WOL at over 250 kts (gotta love Sims!!) When the guy letting us have a play pointed towards an airport around 10 miles away off to my left (WOL) & he said reckon ya could get it down in time? My immediate actions where (I was hand flying anyway) thrust lvrs Idle (snap movement with A/T now off) Spd brake out, held Alt (500ft) drop the dunlops, some fquick maneuvering zig zaging to gain extra miles, Spd brk stowed, flaps 1 (at appropriate spd) & then a succession of further flap extensions & then having to apply pwr to hold Vapp, the two of us worked as a basic instinct team..........result landed safely, albiet smartly:) Reason I reckon it could be done? EXPERIENCE (I've done it many a time in my day to day Ops, legally)............. 300 hr newbie if he was the last man standing in the cockpit with a bare endo would have surely stuffed it up. Yeah I know very hypothetical but it's only meant to be an EG. Okay again not dick waving(can't find it anyway at my age:}) just my experience kicking in without having to 'think' about it. I want pilots with experience up front when my families lives are in their hands.
Where getting the MPL purely 'cause it's too expensive to train the traditional way, MONEY the catalyst for all deaths!


Wmk2

[Seabreeze]

Here is what worries me:

Consider an MPL holder with minimum command time cross country in C152 or Tecnam or whatever, gets employed to drive in Back Seat, then in RH Seat of an airliner.

The MPL holder can drive the computer systems well enough in the sim provided there is not too much complexity, but never has to do a circling approach in marginal WX, deal with U/S systems or deal with any major decision issues in flight, as the CAPT shoulders all of the responsibility.

One day in the distant future he/she gets a command, and for the first time actually has no-one senior to fall back upon when the flight goes pear shaped.

Where is the guarantee that this person actually can function under pressure? Ans: there isn't any - he/she could well be a gutless wonder when it comes to a decisions under stress and simply fall apart or (as I have heard from excellent sources) make panic calls to Dispatch asking desperately what they should they do!

I don't want to be in that aeroplane, or have any of my family or friends there. IMHO, there is NO substitute for some real cross country command time during or after training where pilots mature in their decision making without hundreds of PAX. MPL does not do this.

While it remains to be seen what happened at Islamabad, have a look at the Quote from Kotakota:
"The accident scene is due North of the airfield (maybe 350 degrees ), past the northern suburbs , only the slopes after that . What the hell were they doing there at all , especially in an aircraft with EGPWS and its Data base ?"

I bet that the pilots had little or no actual experience of circling approaches in real life. The MPL is accelerating this trend of reducing the ability of pilots to fly aeroplanes. It might be cheap but it is dangerous.

Seabreeze

[43Inches]

While it remains to be seen what happened at Islamabad, have a look at the Quote from Kotakota:
"The accident scene is due North of the airfield (maybe 350 degrees ), past the northern suburbs , only the slopes after that . What the hell were they doing there at all , especially in an aircraft with EGPWS and its Data base ?"

I bet that the pilots had little or no actual experience of circling approaches in real life. The MPL is accelerating this trend of reducing the ability of pilots to fly aeroplanes. It might be cheap but it is dangerous.


Seabreeze,

Do you know what the experience level of the captain of the Airblue flight was?

Capt, 30k hours ex 747 and FO ex airforce.

I think it may not have anything to do with Cadets and MPL.

[Seabreeze]

43ins

Yes I probably threw in a red herring: I am not suggesting that MPL or cadets were implicated in this one: it remains to be seen what the contrib factors(s) were, although the crews' SA was clearly way off the mark.

However, I can't see how future MPL graduates are going to be anything other than under-prepared for such a scenario.

Seabreeze

[waren9]

Mr Shaw

Does an engineer only have 5 tools in his tool box because he can do 99.8% of all his work with those 5 tools?

No, he has the whole lot.

I am a professional pilot and I started from the bottom so I've got a few tools in my toolbox, if ever I need them.

They get used from time to time as well.

I believe Sully had done some gliding. So had that Gimli bloke too I think. Google it.

[d.shaw15]

Thanks for all your input, id love to hear more.

Firstly i understand experience plays a huge role in the aviation industry, especially in Aus. Also i am aware there is no substitue for experience, some things that just cant be taught and must be experienced in order to learn.

But in terms of training and preparing for airlines the MPL seems to cover everything excluding experience and coming out with 250 odd hours your already ahead of the
traditional CPL which is 150 hrs.

Also i didn't specify in the earlier thread but i wouldn't consider doing an MPL on its own. I do believe you would have to do a CPL as well, i believe CASA call it a CPL bridging or something.

I am simply trying to find the quickest path into the industry, within reason. I wan to fly, its all i have ever wanted to do and all i ever will do. I know its a competitve and hard industry to get into and i just want to put myself into the best position i possibly can

[Sqwark2000]

But in terms of training and preparing for airlines the MPL seems to cover everything excluding experience and coming out with 250 odd hours your already ahead of the traditional CPL which is 150 hrs.

D.shaw,
The traditional CPL is 200hrs inclu 100hrs PIC. The 150hr CPL is via approved full time courses and a recent development (by recent I mean last 10-15yrs).

Sure the MPL is a 250hr course but most of that will be in a level 5 sim, pushing buttons and flying on automation. After the course, you be heavily supervised and given direction for most of your career.

Traditional CPL training and GA flying will have you working in a single pilot environment, dealing with a wide range of operational issues that you'll have to deal with yourself, developing your skills, judgement & knowledge that you will fall back on time and time again when you crack the airlines.

There is literally chalk n cheese differences between the 2 routes and to my mind I know which route I'd rather the pilot of my family had taken when I see them off at the airport.

Remember the MPL was developed because of the percieved pilot shortage that was to occur and the threat to crewing that shortage was going to deliver. MPL was going to be a quick fix to having barely qualified crew members to supplement the existing line pilots..... not replace the exisiting training pathways.

S2K

[pistinaround]

I notice you have posted this in the "Wannabes forum" also.
Maybe you are looking for more favourable answers there ?

The Captains must be thrilled to bits getting sat next to an MPL F/O for a shift, sometimes remembering the GA days are all that makes the cruise intresting remembering when you had the cockpit all to yourself.

[LeadSled]

Consider an MPL holder with minimum command time cross country in C152 or Tecnam or whatever, gets employed to drive in Back Seat, then in RH Seat of an airliner.

The MPL holder can drive the computer systems well enough in the sim provided there is not too much complexity, but never has to do a circling approach in marginal WX, deal with U/S systems or deal with any major decision issues in flight, as the CAPT shoulders all of the responsibility.

One day in the distant future he/she gets a command, and for the first time actually has no-one senior to fall back upon when the flight goes pear shaped.

Seabreeze,

What make the 250 hour MPL Cadet any better or worse than any other 250 h cadet.

As has been said, time and again, we have had about 50 years (fifty !!, five zero!!) years experience of 200h or so graduates going into the RHS of often large jet transports, and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the accident records to suggest that this is an unacceptable risk ---- a "safety" problem.

There is another thread on Flight Deck Forums about pilot minimum experience levels, worth a look.

Tootle pip!!

PS: I came up through the "traditional" GA steam, but as the years went on, I realized it was not the only way, or even the best way ---- if you are producing airline pilots.

[Bing Gordon]

You can't look me in the eye and say experience counts for nothing, regardless of how switched on an MPL holder is.

The most important thing for me is wanting to be next to someone with some war stories, someone to have a laugh with, someone to discover that we have 30 mates in common from the time in the bush. I don't want to sit in silence next to someone who counts going to a fancy dress party dressed as iceman as experience.

Reminds me of a classic simpsons moment, the way things are going, these moments will be repeated throughout Australian cockpits for years to come......

Larry Burns: Well, how do ya like that? I have been in a museum. So, what happened
with you and Ma?

Monty Burns: Oh, there was a terrible scandal. Lily's family forced her to give you up,
and bundled her off to a convent in the South Seas. I never heard from her
again. But I prattle on. Tell me everything about your life.

Larry Burns: Oh, what's to tell? I was at the orphanage till I was 18, then I got my job
at a souvenir stand.

Oh, and once I saw a blimp.